Growth, Infrastructure & Housing Select Committee - Tuesday 27 January 2026, 11:00am - Buckinghamshire Council Webcasting

Growth, Infrastructure & Housing Select Committee
Tuesday, 27th January 2026 at 11:00am 

Agenda

Slides

Transcript

Map

Resources

Forums

Speakers

Votes

 
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr David Moore
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Mark Winn
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  3. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  4. Cllr Mark Winn
  5. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  6. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  7. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  8. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  9. Cllr Mark Winn
  10. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  11. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  12. Cllr Mark Winn
  13. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  14. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  15. Cllr Mark Winn
  16. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  17. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  18. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  19. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  20. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  21. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  22. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  23. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  24. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  25. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  26. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  27. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  28. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  29. Cllr Mark Winn
  30. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  31. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  32. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  33. Cllr Michael Collins
  34. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  35. Cllr Mark Winn
  36. Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services
  37. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  38. Cllr Mark Roberts
  39. Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services
  40. Cllr Mark Roberts
  41. Cllr Mark Winn
  42. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  43. Cllr Mark Winn
  44. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  45. Cllr David Moore
  46. Cllr Mark Winn
  47. Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services
  48. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  49. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  50. Cllr Mark Winn
  51. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  52. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  53. Cllr Mark Winn
  54. Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities
  55. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  56. Cllr Susan Morgan
  57. Cllr Mark Winn
  58. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  59. Cllr Mark Winn
  60. Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services
  61. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  62. Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services
  63. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Peter Strachan
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  3. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  4. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  5. Cllr Peter Strachan
  6. Mr Steve Bambrick
  7. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  8. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  9. Mr Steve Bambrick
  10. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  11. Cllr Jackson Ng
  12. Mr Steve Bambrick
  13. Cllr Jackson Ng
  14. Mr Steve Bambrick
  15. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  16. Cllr Jackson Ng
  17. Cllr Michael Bracken
  18. Cllr Jackson Ng
  19. Mr Steve Bambrick
  20. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  21. Mr Steve Bambrick
  22. Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader
  23. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  24. Mr Steve Bambrick
  25. Cllr Patrick Fealey
  26. Mr Steve Bambrick
  27. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  28. Mr Steve Bambrick
  29. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  30. Cllr Mark Roberts
  31. Cllr Peter Strachan
  32. Cllr Mark Roberts
  33. Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader
  34. Cllr Mark Roberts
  35. Cllr Peter Strachan
  36. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  37. Cllr Susan Morgan
  38. Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader
  39. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  40. Mr Steve Bambrick
  41. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  42. Cllr Michael Collins
  43. Cllr Peter Strachan
  44. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  45. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  46. Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader
  47. Mr Steve Bambrick
  48. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  49. Cllr Peter Strachan
  50. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  51. Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
  52. Cllr Peter Strachan
  53. Mr Steve Bambrick
  54. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  55. Cllr Susan Morgan
  56. Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader
  57. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  58. Cllr Peter Strachan
  59. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  3. Cllr Peter Brazier
  4. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  5. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  6. Cllr Peter Brazier
  7. Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities
  8. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  9. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  10. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  11. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  12. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  13. Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
  14. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  15. Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
  16. Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities
  17. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  18. Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
  19. Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities
  20. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  21. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  22. Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities
  23. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  24. Cllr Michael Collins
  25. Cllr Peter Brazier
  26. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  27. Cllr Susan Morgan
  28. Cllr Peter Brazier
  29. Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities
  30. Cllr Susan Morgan
  31. Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities
  32. Cllr Susan Morgan
  33. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  34. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  35. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  36. Cllr Mark Roberts
  37. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  38. Cllr Mark Roberts
  39. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  40. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  41. Cllr Peter Brazier
  42. Daniel Williams - County Archivist
  43. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  44. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  3. Cllr Michael Collins
  4. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  5. Hannah Austin - Service Director for HIF & Major Projects
  6. Cllr Michael Collins
  7. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  8. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  9. Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability
  10. Cllr Michael Collins
  11. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  12. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  13. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  14. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  15. Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability
  16. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  17. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  18. Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability
  19. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  20. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  21. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  22. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  23. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  24. Cllr Susan Morgan
  25. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  26. Cllr Susan Morgan
  27. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  28. Cllr Susan Morgan
  29. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  30. Cllr Susan Morgan
  31. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  32. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  33. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  34. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  35. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  36. Cllr David Moore
  37. Cllr Steven Broadbent
  38. Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability
  39. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Susan Morgan
  2. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  3. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  4. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  5. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  6. Cllr Jonathan Waters
  7. Cllr Susan Morgan
  8. Cllr Jonathan Waters
Share this agenda point
  1. Webcast Finished

Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:00:00
Good morning, everybody, and can I welcome you to the Growth and Infrastructure Select
Committee for the 27th of January, and welcome any council members, officers, or the public
who will be listening to this on the webcast as well.
Can I remind everybody to turn off their microphones when they finish speaking?
I will try and do the same.
I don't always do that.
And to ensure that your mobile phones are turned off during the meeting.

1 Apologies for Absence/Changes in Membership

Can I start on item one, which is apologies for absence.
Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:00:53
Thank you Chairman, we've had apologies from Councillor Chirag Chotai and Councillor Sherrilyn
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:01:03
Bateman is substituting for him today. Due to other commitments, Councillor Ng needs
to leave the meeting at 12 .30, Councillor Feeley at 12 .45 and Councillor Arthur Hewitt
at 1 .30. Thank you and I welcome Councillor Bateman
to the joining us today at last minute sort of to come in and do it.
It's really appreciated.

2 Declarations of Interest

Do we have any declarations of interest for today's meeting?
Councillor Waugh.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr David Moore - 0:01:32
I just wanted to declare an agenda item six.
I'm the Waugh Councillor for Stoke Poges Memorial Gardens.
I also sit on the Heritage Walk Committee, which is part of the Memorial Gardens.
Thank you.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:01:44
Item three is minutes of the previous meeting.

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Do we have any items on that that anyone would like to raise?
If not, can we take as read the minutes of the meeting of the 18th of November,
and they're on pages five to 12?
That's great.
Thank you very much.
Do we have any questions from the public?

4 Public Questions

Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:02:15
No, we haven't had any questions from the public, Chairman.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:02:18
Thank you. I'll give a quick update and just explain.

5 Chairman's Update

Obviously, the meeting is later than it would be by an hour,
because the leader of the Council is at the Holocaust Memorial this morning,
And so we pushed the meeting back an hour for that particular purpose.
The other item I'll mention is at the previous meeting,
we talked about having a rapid review on housing.
Some discussions have taken place with Sally and Liz, with Lisa Michelson.
And I'm gonna have some further discussions in relation to that before we
bring that back.
So we haven't actually moved that forward yet at this point.
Can we move to item six?

6 Capital works to Stoke Poges Memorial Gardens

That's capital works to Stoke Poagers Memorial Garden.
That's it.
The report for that is on pages 13 to 22.
Can I welcome Councillor Mark Wynne, who's the cabinet member for housing and regulatory
services.
And joining him is Richard Barker, corporate director for communities, and Linda Francis,
as head of crematoria and cemetery services.
Thanks and welcome to the meeting.
If you'd like to introduce the item,
I did read the papers, found it quite interesting
because it's not an area that I've known a lot about,
but it would be good to actually find out more
and take further questions.
Thank you, Chairman.
Good morning to everyone.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:03:55
I'm really pleased to introduce an update
on the capital works at Stoke Pogg's Memorial Gardens. The gardens are a grade one listed
site of exceptional historical, cultural and horticultural significance in Buckinghamshire.
This paper provides a comprehensive overview of the gardens journey, recent achievements and
future ambitions. Since its establishment in the early 20th century, Stoke Pogg's Memorial Gardens
have served as a tranquil space for remembrance and reflection, blending
formal landscaping with natural beauty. The site is not only a cherished place
for the determinant of ashes, but also a vital community asset hosting events and
fostering local heritage. And as you said Chairman, this morning if I wasn't here
I'd be at the Holocaust Memorial Service that's taking place. Not all that did take
based there this morning. So that's a sign of the things that go on there. Over the past five years
significant capital projects have been completed. This has included two major garden extensions
which are the creation of a Covid memorial garden and the celebration of the garden's 90th anniversary.
These initiatives have enhanced accessibility, expanded burial space and strengthened community
engagement, all while preserving a unique character of the site. Looking ahead, we're
committed to further investment with planned refurbishment to buildings, restoration of
the iconic colonnade, ensuring the gardens remain a distinguished heritage site for future generations.
The generated income has remained balanced throughout the financial year,
ensuring consistent progress towards Stoke Page's Memorial Gardens income target of $277 ,000.
With the addition of new gardens and its successful completion of the building refurbishment project,
we are well positioned to continue seeking further opportunities to generate income and support our
ongoing initiatives. Our financial resilience is underpinned by a dedicated ring fence reserve,
we continue to seek external funding and community support for ongoing and future projects.
I invite you to note this report and join us in celebrating the achievements and future ambitions
of the gardens. Thank you, Councillor Wynne. Any questions?
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:06:17
Councillor Cornell. Thank you for that, Councillor Wynne. There's
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:06:24
a huge amount of money being laid out on these gardens, which is fine. How are we recouping
the money? How do we get the money back that we spend on these things?
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:06:40
The money comes back through the renting of the spaces, plus there are charity donations that we get,
sort of lottery funding that we push towards, and there are a number of volunteers that also work at the gardens.
So it basically is cost neutral. So we're not investigating into it ourselves. It's cost neutral.
and Richard.
Because there's a huge amount going out,
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:07:01
there's nearly 800, just over 800 ,000 going out
on capital spend.
If it's okay, Chairman, just to comment.
So I'm Richard Barkley, corporate director for communities.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:07:13
Thanks for the question, Councillor Cornell.
Just to confirm, there's no net cost
to this council's general fund budget.
The funding of capital works and any revenue expenditure
associated with gardens comes through
the reserve arrangement as well.
So there is no net cost associated with the capital works to the council.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:07:34
Councillor Sutchbury then, Councillor Peeley.
Firstly, thank you for what is really quite a good report.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:07:42
It shows that you're progressing something in the Member's Ward and one thing or another, and it's all very good.
I take from the cabinet member's point this morning that he would have been there for the Holocaust Memorial Day.
We would have had one in Buckingham Day, but it's flooded at the minute.
So we can't actually do that where we've got a memorial.
Is there any scope within those grounds as you stated it's a memorial garden?
Because I believe it's the only one in Buckingham's the only memorial stone in Buckinghamshire,
unless I stand corrected, that this is an ideal setting for that to be considered.
so that there's, for people in that community,
they could partake and show that.
As you stated that there's more money
and more stuff to be done,
it seems an appropriate consideration to look at it.
These things don't cost a fortune.
And it would mean that people in that side of the county
had somewhere to focus on,
because as we well know,
these awful things continue throughout the world
in different settings.
and we're always going to need to actually mark these things to remind people that they took place.
And in Buckingham they use it as an educational tool. Young people come to it and,
well, I just ask a simple question, would you please consider looking at the feasibility of putting something similar into that gardens,
because it seems the appropriate place to have it.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:09:18
I mean the difference here, Councillor Slattery, is really that the income for this has been
generated by the Memorial Gardens for spending in somewhere else in Buckingham.
We'd have to, it would be new additional funding.
I mean obviously that could be considered, it has to be considered along those lines
of new additional funding rather than funding from what is the resources of the Memorial
gardens themselves. Just come back briefly I understand the difficulty of
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:09:46
funding it took us best part of ten years to get to where we did in Buckingham to
actually get to this. Having the aspiration to do the right thing means
that you can then start to look at the very perhaps of funding these things so
I just plead that you at least say you would go and look at it and see whether
the feasibility is there. I don't know these gardens. I'm not confessing to be an expert
on them, but I'm just saying it's a memorial garden and it looks like the most appropriate
place to do this. So all I ask, would you agree to at least go and look at the aspirations
of doing this and report back at a future time what you found? I'm saying this because
it took us long enough to fund one in Buckingham and we managed to do so. So I think it's,
I understand the difficulty around funding.
Thank you.
I think the cost -purpose was, I think.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:10:40
There's a memorial garden here.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:10:42
There is a COVID memorial garden here, Robin, already.
That was part of the extension to the thing.
You probably missed that bit of it.
But yeah, there is a COVID memorial garden
within Stoke pages.
COVID, it was the Holocaust memorial.
COVID, I wasn't on about COVID,
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:11:02
which is unfortunate because you have got a COVID memorial.
haven't got a Covid memorial garden in Buckingham. So I think the question is are there other
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:11:10
memorials obviously the Covid one is there because I know Mimi Harker opened that I think originally.
I'm sorry if I didn't explain myself it's a Holocaust memorial setting that I was looking towards.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:11:22
Yeah it's one we should definitely take away and look at it's sort of something we could do that.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:11:30
I've got Councillor Feeley, Councillor Collins and then Councillor Roberts.
Yeah thank you Chairman.
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 0:11:36
Richard I probably just wanted to understand the governance of it a bit.
Because it was transferred in 71 and there's a trust.
Yeah, so presuming that was some residual funds that were there that were transferred of course.
And the funds are there and it specifically says about maintenance, enhancement and development of the gardens.
Is it restricted, picking up on Councillor Starchfield's words, is it restricted to those gardens?
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:12:10
Yeah, thanks Councillor Finney. Yes it is. So the asset was transferred under the
Eton Rural Act originally in 1910 and that's obviously then passed to Buckinghamshire Council as part of our
unitary journey, but very specifically the funding is
ring -fenced to the Memorial Gardens through that
legacy arrangement, so it is specific to that asset.
And who manages the trust? Is it some fellow councillors or
individuals?
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 0:12:38
Yeah, the
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:12:47
we have
We have three trusts that I'm aware of that have effectively
passed forward to the council.
And the council is effectively the sort
of corporate trustee of those trusts
and responsible for management.
And we've obviously got at least one member
on this committee that is a trustee and effectively
responsible for ensuring that what was envisaged
as part of the creation of the trust
is delivered both in terms of the operational management
and any capital investment as well as the associated governance decisions.
But the trust forms from Spark Council.
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 0:13:29
So specifically for the St. Poggis gardens only and it can't be used elsewhere?
That's absolutely correct, yes.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:13:35
So there's a ring fence reserve which is specific to the memorial gardens
and that's effectively how the capital investment that we've articulated in the paper is covered off and funded.
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 0:13:51
So if we wanted to move forward, is it possible that we could establish a trust for the Holocaust Memorial?
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:14:01
I think the creation of a new trust is a possibility.
As I said, this Council has interactions and direct responsibilities for a number of semi -third -party bodies.
and as I said, we've got at least three formal trusts
which we've inherited as part of becoming a unitary council
through the legacy arrangements of the previous districts.
So that could be a possibility.
I suppose the other option would be to think about
whether or not it was possible to think about
how the Holocaust could be acknowledged and commemorated
as part of the investment in existing assets.
I think there may be other options to consider as part of that.
Which is what we're trying to get to,
which if you establish a trust,
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 0:14:49
then you can go out and get other funding.
And the big thing with the Holocaust,
particularly if we could establish a trust for it,
then we can go to the Holocaust Memorial Funds
and ask for funding to maintain it, if you like,
or whatever we wanted it.
It's a real asset, and particularly for the schools,
because every year, apart from this year,
because it's too wet,
we take the schools along and they participate.
From an education point of view,
it's a good exercise.
And the schools see it that way.
So I'm just really trying to tease forward, if I could,
if we could go down the route of perhaps enabling a trust
with the joint venture with the town council
and anybody else.
So once the trust is established,
then we can get funds and we can maintain it.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:15:45
Yeah, I mean certainly the merits that you've identified as part of creating a trust are absolutely the case
You know, it does provide opportunity to leave other funding sources
You know into an asset or services that perhaps wouldn't otherwise be available and the Stoke Poachers
Memorial Gardens are a great example of that in terms of that asset being
invested in and
Preserved in in the way in which was originally envisaged from the outset. So that is a possibility
I think the opportunity of creating a specific trust
around the Holocaust would be an issue
for members to consider, but certainly the merits
of the trust and the funding model around that
are, I think, broadly as you described.
Sorry to come back again, if you don't mind.
Is the Holocaust ceremonies dealt with elsewhere
in the county?
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 0:16:34
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:16:40
I would need to cheque Councillor Finney. Certainly the major event in terms of the
Holocaust Memorial event happening today at the Memorial Gardens is the main event for this council.
There may be other events, I'm not aware of any.
If we could look at that, that would be great.
Thank you.
I know that the leaders there today and the cabinet member for communities,
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:16:58
and obviously I would have been there if I wasn't here.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:17:04
on. Councillor Collins, Roberts, Moore and then Cornell. I think that most of the questions
have been answered but I really do think we do need to have a Holocaust Memorial, we have
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:17:14
to remember what happened and not let it just slide out of history. And also if it's going
to come as part of a memorial, can it not come within the enclave of the memorials if
it's going to be difficult to set up a trust? Okay, I think maybe the process for setting
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:17:28
that might be a good thing to circulate so that actually we can think through that.
And that's probably the starting point for this.
Sorry, Councillor Collins.
Yeah, thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Michael Collins - 0:17:38
The three parish councils that I sit on, we've had serious issues, serious concerns and lots of discussion
on the revenue expense of maintaining the church lard.
we've noticed a big increase over the last 12 months, 15 months in those costs.
It's a bit of a dilemma because of the change in the country's economic situation.
We are now concerned that the amount that we're having to pay for just general maintenance
has gone up really disproportionate to what we've made provision for in previous budgets.
And we have no idea how that's going to be increasing.
We've had a stab at increasing those costs this year,
but the kind of quotations we're getting
are quite substantial in their increases.
Now, this is the next year's budget, basically,
but we're now worried about subsequent years
and going forward.
Because quite often, we tend to overlook.
We have a capital project, but we
forget to look at the maintenance
of that particular capital item.
I think it's something that we really
have to get some advice on, I think, is causing us,
because we're all trying to prepare our budgets
for the precepts for next year.
The second item, if I may, Chair,
is that Aston Clinton are looking
at the acquisition of some farmland
to produce a non -consecrated plot where
barriers can take place and that would we are illiterate was just raised on
This last week's agenda and it needs to be considered, but we're not quite sure to whom we should be talking
it says a piece of farmland and not very far from the
Bypass in Aslan Clinton and it's it's currently farmed
But the farm was prepared to allow us to purchase a piece of that land
But again, we have concerns as to procedure.
And maybe Mark, you could sometimes give us some advice
on what we should be doing.
I think the two questions obviously don't relate
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:19:53
to what we're talking about today, but is more general.
And maybe in terms of the second one, in terms of the process
of how the parish would go through that.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:20:04
The second one, we could definitely offer some advice
on how you go ahead.
Also, the Buckingham Town Council, of course,
I've just built one so that maybe there are a course of advice as well
In terms of upkeep of memorials. It's not something that I'm an expert in
I'm happy to come in chair.
Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services - 0:20:31
Our
I think the costs have risen all around haven't they for everything
I can't comment on the cost of memorial maintenance, but what I can say is that recently a
Survey was undertaken as part of the local plan investigations to all town and parish councils about their cemetery provision
Whether how many?
Burials were undertaken per year how many new graves?
What duration they thought they had left within the cemeteries?
and whether they had any future plans. We've collated all those responses and
I'm meeting with the infrastructure team next week to look at those results to
look at building to see if we need to build provision or what support is
needed going forward for the Town and Parish church and cemeteries and
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:21:32
Cllr Mark Roberts - 0:21:37
Councillor Roberts. Thank you. I've got a couple of questions but if I could add my
comments to I think it is a it would be an important thing to move forward with
establishing a Holocaust Memorial in Buckinghamshire either a memorial or
multiple memorials in different places I think that would be a good initiative to
pursue. But I had two questions specifically in relation to Stoke Panges.
One was the investments that have already been made over recent years, can
you say something about the benefits, financial and otherwise, that have accrued
from those investments? And the second part of that is to understand a bit
about how you've engaged stakeholders in the plans and investments that have been
made, the improvements, what local community, the representatives of those who are memorialised
there and can you say something about how that engagement has taken place?
Thanks, I'll ask Linda Francis to ask that.
Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services - 0:22:36
Thank you, good questions. With engagement at all stages, there's a very active friends group,
a registered charity who work with the Memorial Gardens.
So we work in conjunction with the Friends Group,
the Mobs family, who are part of the founders of the gardens.
We also work closely with them and with neighbouring Stoke
Park.
There is quite a lot of engagement
that goes on around the works.
The benefits of the garden extensions
has been that the first phase of the garden extension was very successful and
I think the plots and gardens that were laid out there have mainly been used
which have generated income with the the interments that have taken place with
the lease fees paid for those gardens and plots. We sell memorial plaques so
that's what enables us to break even on the cost of the revenue side really of
running the gardens. The second garden extension which was completed about
three years ago has not had any interments in it yet it's just been
laid out now with plans drawn up and I think we've got I think so far 35 double
plots set out and seven family gardens and three of those double plots have
sold already, even though we haven't used them.
And I think that whole garden extension,
over the next three years, has potential
for raising around $225 ,000 income
from the interment of ashes and the sale of leases
and memorials.
OK, thank you.
Cllr Mark Roberts - 0:24:30
If I could just add, I did visit gardens last year,
and found it very interesting and very impressive.
Yeah, yeah.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:24:39
Chairman, I was just going to suggest that maybe the committee would want to come and visit the gardens, if that could be arranged.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:24:44
I think that would be a good idea, so we'll contact you and make sure we do visit it, because I think many of us haven't been there, I haven't been there myself, so I think it would be a good thing to actually really understand the amount of work that's going on there.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:25:03
I mean until I went there I didn't really know where it was or what it was.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:25:08
I think it's like one of these gems that we've got that is not known about that much.
And Councillor Moore and then Councillor Sutchbury.
Cllr David Moore - 0:25:13
Thank you Chairman.
On that note I would love to third that suggestion.
It is a stunning garden and you see the wisteria there.
Some of the best examples of wisteria in the county if not the country.
Great railway journeys went there recently.
You can see Portillo and his retinos going around.
exploring the wonderful flowers.
And can I just thank not only the Councillor,
Wynn and the team, but also Franzi Cheeseman,
the head horticultural manager who I met a few months ago,
who gave me a tour round.
I've been going there all my life,
but Franzi has been amazing, and her team,
in nurturing these beautiful gardens.
So I urge members to go to Stoke Pobers Memorial Gardens.
It's very welcome to see this much needed investment take place in the Stoke Poges Memorial
Gardens, especially with the 90th anniversary last year.
And I just wanted to ask regarding the museum, because the current building is lovely, but
it's a way of making it more publicly accessible because we've got Thomas Gray's elegy written
in a country churchyard, written in the church next door in St. Giles, and there's lots of
artefacts and objects related to that and that are kind of in storage and I see you've got
254 ,000 pounds earmarked for refurbishment of the museum
And how we're going to make that a publicly accessible museum where we can actually show a lot of these assets that the council shares
What we're going to do to invest in that and ensuring the 2027
Opening date occurs and just add a footnote to that just regarding the trusteeship
The Mobs Memorial Trust supports the gardens.
I don't sit as a trustee of the Mobs Memorial Trust,
but the council of course acts as a,
as I understand the corporate trustee,
but the Mobs Memorial Trust supports with the refurbishment.
So it's that collaboration there.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Moore for that.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:27:07
Yeah, I've, having seen the gardens
and seen the work that goes on.
Yeah, the praise of Frank Frenzine and our team
is very welcome.
Linda can comment on the museum.
Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services - 0:27:21
Thank you, thank you for your comments about Franzi. I will be sure to pass them on. She's
absolutely passionate about the gardens and I don't think I dare anyone to have a better
knowledge of the gardens. I know she works consistently on conservation plans, on her
ideas for capital that will be building into our service planning and actually my colleague
Matthew who's with me today, he's leading on the project for refurbishing the building.
It's very dated, it's not very accessible.
The museum, very grandly named, is actually just a corner of the main community room,
which is actually called the Robe Room.
and the thinking behind the refurbishment.
And Matthew has been working very closely with Heritage,
with specialist architects, with expert energy,
to look at how we can make the building a bit more sustainable,
more accessible.
So the things that we're planning to do is to build a small extension,
to have a kitchen that is accessible off of the community room,
and to open up the area where the museum currently is.
We've actually removed now the panels
that have been put up previously
to really open that room up.
And then the artefacts, the pictures, the furniture
are actually more on display
and the team are working at how they can build on that
once that work has been completed.
But the works will ensure that there is an accessible toilet indoors so that people coming
to events don't have to go outside for that.
There will be a kitchen that can be accessed by the community room, as I say.
It's setting up a...
There's no meeting room, there's no reception area.
It's very much a cottage that's been adapted.
So I think that the whole works there will make it more accessible.
we'll be able to offer more community events.
I think there's more opportunity then for income generation.
Yes, we've got the fund.
Yes, we're cost neutral, but what would be really fantastic
is if we can now start generating a bit more income
to protect the gardens for longer,
to start building up, maybe putting back into those reserves
and just looking at the long -term sustainability.
but certainly the artefacts are there and they will be more on display once
that that work has been completed.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:30:09
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:30:11
Councillor Sertiary. Yeah thank you. What's evident listening to the discussions
here is listening to my colleagues is the consideration of a memorial garden
is very well supported broadly around the room so I dearly hope that that is
noted and that it's taken away and looked at with some real seriousness. If you wish
to know how to do it, if you write to the town council, we'll tell you how we managed
to deliver one in Buckingham. On the cemetery issue, thank you, Mark, for
mentioning the fact that Buckingham's delivered at the new cemetery. That was delivered because
very much to do with this, it was part of the previous neighbourhood plan that that
should be delivered in Buckingham.
Patrick and I have talked about these things
over a number of years,
and they're very difficult things to deliver.
And there's loads, it's not, we'll have a piece of land,
and now we'll have a cemetery.
There's so many loops you have to go through
with permission, purchasing land, going through planning.
All the funding, which is a huge issue,
and usually these things are funded through government assistance.
So that is a really, there is a good documentation how to deliver this.
I do believe the cabinet member and I once spoke about this cemeteries as well.
They're not easily delivered. It took 10 years to deliver the one in Buckingham.
And we've just agreed on local neighbourhood plan today, but this week, last week.
So you can see the time span in these things isn't instant and everybody wants everything today.
it's not able to be done. So I think that might be a lesson on how to perhaps it was done and
maybe other people can use that. And lastly, just a personal question, is the Nigel Mobs the same Sir
Nigel Mobs who was the Lord Lieutenant of Buckingham? Because the name, because I had many
happy days wandering around when I was Mayor of Buckingham with Nigel and tightening my tyre and
sorting out my diet. If I was, I didn't quite be fun to be with. I don't know what you thought
about me, but I found him fun to be with. And lastly, looking at the amount of trees
in that area and looking at the age profile of those trees, there is nothing in here about
the management of those trees because that garden can only maintain itself being as pleasant
as it looks in the drawings, and I'm not claiming I've been there, and it looks like we may visit,
because without the substantial mature trees, the garden wouldn't have the ascetic it has now.
And there is some really real cost in maintaining trees to a high standard. I know a little bit
about the cost, and I know how to maintain trees, but I'm not legally qualified to do it.
But it's just to be assured that there is a programme
of being looked at to secure those trees,
because only to obviously we have this in Buckingham
where trees, substantial trees are being lost
for various different reasons.
We won't go into them.
And once you start losing the green canopy somewhere,
what was special about it will be lost.
So a series of comments and questions there.
I hope that you're in a position to answer.
But lastly, I'm just very pleased that everyone in the room
seems united on the fact that we need to do something
about the Holocaust Memorial.
Fitting, of course, it is today as well
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:33:51
that that's been brought up,
and obviously there's a ceremony taking place there.
That really sort of highlights it.
But in terms of the mobs family, yes,
it is the mobs family you are talking about.
And they do support the cemetery,
and we're really welcome for the support that they provide to that.
Richard can comment on the trees.
Just on the tree point, Councillor Suchbury.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:34:14
So just to confirm, we do have a specific tree management plan
as part of the management for this site.
The trees are obviously significant parts of the landscape on the site as well,
which, you know, members will see.
Hopefully we'll get that visit arranged quickly.
We've got a number of significant trees, ancient oaks on that site as well,
which requires some particular attention.
but we have a specific tree management plan and we invest in that through the revenue and management arrangements
we've got established on the side. Just lastly if you, if through
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:34:44
the cabinet member, if you
ask the town council for the route to how they've done it because it appears from the
officer saying that there was a communication went out about delivering cemetery and burial space.
This is not easy to do and
why it was started 10 years ago.
So there's a plan how it was done.
It might be worth just having a note
to be able to advise other parishes who wish to do it
because I can't imagine the Buckingham council
is in a position to purchase land
in every village for a cemetery.
So we were fortunate we could do that.
With new college officers are very agreeable
in the situation?
Yeah, no definitely.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:35:36
Obviously, the Town Centre Committee and I
with them also developed their Penn Road Cemetery as well.
So there's that example, there's an example
of Buckingham Town which we can use to try
and advise parish councils and town councils going forward.
Yeah.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director for Communities - 0:35:52
And just again to confirm Councillor Senchbury,
so the Town and Parishes have been really actively
participating in that process to identify capacity,
issues and demand pressures going forward and that and that conversation
and information is helping to inform the development of the local plan which of
course the next item I think this committee is due to consider today.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:36:15
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:36:17
Castle Morgan. Thank you chair. I think I'm the last one to speak but I thought
I'd just take the opportunity Linda to really thank you and the team. Jonathan
and I worked with you on income generation and your passion and your drive and your team
behind you with that passion and drive has made this happen. I just wanted to really
extend our thanks to the team because you really are focused on cost neutral and income
generation which is really important to do new things like this and being able to keep
up to pace and keep things relevant. So really well done, thank you.
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:36:58
I think thank you for that council Morgan and yet that I have that's one thing has impressed me in this role
It's how passionate the team are and you know obviously sort of they're dealing with people at their worst moment
And they really do that treat them with respect and the dignity that they deserve but they keep on
Improving the facilities that are there and using the funds that they're it's a really great example
how to run
certain things within the council. So thanks for that.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:37:25
I'm just going to raise a couple of questions. Obviously I think for quite a number of us
who haven't been, I think there's a lot of people in the county who have not been
to this particular site. And I was trying to understand
how you, particularly when there's events or things which are on, how you
advertise that and try and get the wider public to go and actually visit.
You know, whether there's an appropriate time or not an appropriate time, I don't know
how that works and so be good to understand how you're looking to
generate that or improve that particularly because I think that would
be you know be worthwhile so more people can see what what we're actually doing
there and on the areas where coming back on the trees on the areas where you are
extending extending the area presumably there that's a little opportunity for us
to put more trees in which is the policy of bucks to do that and within that so
this would be good to know a little bit more about the plan of that but
definitely of what Councillor Morgan has said in terms of what the team are doing
Cllr Mark Winn - 0:38:29
it's very much appreciated. Thanks Chairman I think they'd probably talk about the
Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services - 0:38:35
engagement locally. Thank you for your kind comments it's nice to have the work
of the team recognise actually they do work extremely hard I'm very passionate
about what they do, which is lovely.
With regard to promotion,
Francie's always been very good promoting the gardens.
There are publications that she will put little adverts in.
I know she does a good poster distribution,
but we did a service review in 2025.
And as part of that, we have established a team
that work on data analysis, on finance,
and on events and promotion.
And what we're looking to do is now the team
are working more closely at making sure
that when we have events at Soak Poggis,
we advertise them in our crematoria,
in our cemeteries, and vice versa.
And we're trying to build those links.
It's an obvious link, but it didn't used to be there.
We've got the memorial gardens that we enter ashes,
and we've got crematoria that create ashes.
So that closer working to me is something
that we absolutely need to build on.
And we do have a now a team member who is our,
like our events officer who's built up
some really good relations with comms,
which has been an issue for us previously
and I know that came out in the income maximisation.
So we are now getting things out into, onto Facebook pages, onto X, there are very avenues
that we're using and we are promoting quite a lot internally.
We always say that Soap Hoses is a hidden gem and we are now, we try and get articles
in the Community Spotlight, which it is responsible for, into the bulletins that come out across
the council, we offer volunteer days. So there are lots of ways that we are trying now to
just make people aware of the facility and to encourage attendance. But I think the best
thing with the gardens is the word of mouth actually. I think the people that come along,
the people that help out with the garden ninjas. And we had 1 ,200 volunteer hours in 2025 at
gardens. That's a lot of hours and that's a lot of people sharing the good work
and the events that take place there.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:41:12
On the trees what's the plans that you're doing on the new areas in
terms of the trees and the planting there?
Linda Francis - Head of Crematoria & Cemeteries Services - 0:41:23
Bransy's been working very closely with, I can't say it, arboriculturalists.
And we did some work around the impact of the building when we were doing the refurb,
the planned refurb.
But they, I think the tree management plan looks at what we've got and also looking forward
to what we can replace when we need to, what new planting can be done. The garden extensions
have very much been looking at biodiversity, what species of trees that we can plant in
those areas. And I think that's an ongoing piece of work that Franzi is very involved
in. Yes it just it is wrapped up in the tree management plan and that there's a
conservation plan in place as well so I think all of those things are just
wrapped up in the general looking forward at what we're going to do within
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:42:29
the gardens. Thank you. Is there any other questions at all?
Can I thank you all for coming along, Councillor Wynne, Richard and Linda.
It's very informative.
I think in terms of the out turn, what we're going to talk about is to note is the support
from the committee that we should be looking to see if we can move forward in terms of
Holocaust Memorial on the site and the process for doing that.
So to see if we can move forward, and it's a very appropriate day to kick that off,
because it's very much in our minds, but it's about keeping it there.
And so people don't forget, and particularly in terms of what is already happening in Buckingham,
and how that can link in, particularly with the school children.
I think also that we would like to arrange a visit to come and see what you're doing,
And then obviously talk through all the different elements of it in terms of the
planting and the processes and actually have a good look at what's happening there.
So that we fully understand, so we can be advocates and
very much encourage continuation in terms of all the publicity you can do.
Because when we have a gem like this, which we're putting the effort into,
actually the people see it and appreciate it.
That is something which we would love to do.
Thank you very much.
We're just going to see if the cabinet member is available
to start the next session.
We're running a little bit early so...
I think we're still live on the webcast, just so you're aware.
Thank you.
We're just going to take a break from the webcast and hopefully start again with it
in about five minutes.

6 Capital works to Stoke Poges Memorial Gardens

Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:45:45
Thanks very much.

7 Update on the progress of the Buckinghamshire Local Plan

We are now back from our adjournment and we are now going to cover an update on the Berkshire
local plan which is going to be a verbal update because of really the speed that
things are moving in terms of this and I'd like to welcome Councillor Peter
Strachan who's the cabinet member for planning and also Councillor Michael
Bracken who's deputy cabinet member. For the officer team we have Steve
Bambrick who's corporate director planning growth and sustainability and
Charlotte Morris, Planning Policy Manager.
Can I hand over to Peter Strachan to open?
Thanks Chairman and good morning everyone.
Perhaps I can just open with a few words Chairman
Cllr Peter Strachan - 0:46:39
just to give the session a bit of context.
Since the last update, the local plan has continued
to make good progress.
We're currently at the Regulation 18 stage
where different options are being explored and tested.
We undertook our public consultation on draught approaches and policies between September and October last year,
and we have now received all 1300 responses on the draught Local Plan,
and these have helped to shape the draught policies.
Following this Committee's response to the consultation,
we have met with your Chairman and other members to discuss the issues raised and
we will provide a written response to these after this meeting. At the same
time officers have been carrying out the technical work needed to assess
potential site allocations. Overall the local plan remains on track and is
progressing in line with the timetable set out in the local development scheme.
The next key step is to begin sharing the sites that could be allocated in the Local Plan.
In February, we hope to publish the sites that have passed the first stage of assessment.
These will include sites for housing and employment, or a mix of these.
This work will be supported by technical site assessments, including a Greenbelt review,
and evidence from the Housing and Economic Land Availability Assessment and the study
looking at options for new settlements and urban extensions.
All members will be briefed before any sites are published online and we strongly encourage
you to attend once the briefing date is confirmed.
Following engagement on the sites, we are aiming to publish the full local plan in July
for a further six -week public consultation.
This will be the Regulation 19 stage where the plan is largely fixed and comments focus
on soundness and legal compliance.
After the consultation, all representations will be collated and the plan will be submitted
to the Planning Inspector for examination.
We must submit the local plan by the 31st of December to meet the government's deadline under the current planning system.
I hope that's helpful Chairman.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:49:14
Thank you. We take first questions. So far I've got Councillor Sutchbury then Councillor Unton.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:49:24
Firstly, thank you for that update. Those of us who have seen plans over a number of years
knows how difficult and how long the process they are. Also noting for the, we just, as
it's local plans, we just had our local neighbourhood plan agreed at Buckingham, which will take
six weeks to go for its legal consultation.
That said, that's a minor or a major success
for the town council, but a minor part
of the Buckinghamshire plan.
I would like to explore the communications point
around site allocations.
I think all of us have been interested,
waiting and naturally constituents and residents
have an interest in that as well.
A little obvious question is that I think we need
to have a proper engagement around the site allocations
with the local members because it is the local members
who will have to discuss the site allocations pro,
for or demur with their residents.
I think the whole process has been quite long and I think without that I don't feel equipped
to as a local member to express a view on those allocations because we haven't really
been involved in this aspect.
It's been top -led, bottom -following.
So I think we do need to get that engagement going very quickly now because clearly it's
It's important that as a local authority we support the Buckinghamshire Development Plan,
but you need to get the buy -in of all the members.
And there were various views.
Moving on from that, it becomes to the communication of the plan to the wider community and how
the dispersal of those properties may be across Buckinghamshire.
You alluded to the Greenbelt issue and you alluded to that.
But the key part, I think you would agree, in delivering this plan is the infrastructure.
And without the infrastructure supporting the plan, and I think you've said it in previous meetings,
but there needs to be a very strong infrastructure part of this plan.
I know your deputy has expressed this in meetings with us.
So will there be a following this, another discussion about the infrastructure delivery?
You've only got to look in North Buckinghamshire to see how limited there is infrastructure
in North Buckinghamshire.
We're relying on the A421 and we're relying on a railway between Cambridge and Oxford
which isn't finished and the fact that there's no link from that railway to the Alsbury link.
So it's very difficult to see where the infrastructure is.
The major roads are not in North Buckinghamshire.
You know, we've got the M1, the other side of Milton Keynes,
and we've got the M40 in Oxfordshire and Northamptonshire.
So why I'm saying that the infrastructure plan
coming with that is more key for the sustainability.
And the last question of that is the new town issue.
The government were going to bring new towns and they chose not to give any to Buckinghamshire,
but it has been alluded that there would be a new town in Buckinghamshire. Wherever that new town
would go if that is the decision, that really needs a proper elaborated conversation because
I'm sure there'll be a thousand questions. It's not, none of this is a criticism, it's an
personal point of view, how we have been following,
but not necessarily engaged.
There may be a real good reason why that's so,
but from a member's point of view,
we have to answer these things to our members
and our constituents.
Councillor Sertschery, I'm gonna stop you there
because that was quite a lot of different questions there,
and I hope you've noted every single one of them.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:53:44
I've got a pretty good idea on most of them.
Some of the other members I think are gonna delve
into some of those in some depth as well,
So if you could start.
Yeah, there were at least six embedded questions there, I think, Councillor Stutchbury.
Cllr Peter Strachan - 0:53:58
But let me let me just run down a list and ask the officers to add some detail.
Firstly, I was very pleased to see that your Buckingham local plan
got to the stage it did, and it was discussed yesterday.
And I've been assured by officers that there's no suspicion
that it shouldn't do the required six -week period before going to the
final stage of its consultation. So well done on that for the town council. I
think we are hugely aware of the communication that is required around
this plan and the intention yet to be confirmed, I hope you've all got a whole
date in your diary anyway for a member briefing which will proceed by a day the
information of the plan being put on our public website. We've also lined up
suitable forum briefings with town and parish councils so we are hugely aware
of the communication task and would hope very much to meet that need for all
concern because I think we fully admit that this new plan for books will affect
virtually every single resident in Buckinghamshire. It's certainly every
parish council so we are totally aware of all the points that that you mentioned.
Infrastructure, I think also we totally recognise that that any any form of
development without infrastructure, suitable infrastructure and that's not
roads, that's medical centres, that's schools, maybe hospitals, but any form of development
without infrastructure is a disaster.
And the plan -making process allocates resources to assessing infrastructure within the plan -making
process.
But again, we're very aware of the fact that planning or development without infrastructure
just blights our residents and it's something that we are very alert to.
In terms of new towns, whilst we, I think, anticipated being allocated a new town by the government, we weren't.
We have not been allocated a new town. They have gone to other bits of the country.
So that slightly surprised us probably, but it's not the way that it happened.
But having sort of addressed your points generally, perhaps I can turn to Steve Bamberg, the corporate
director, who can add some more detail if appropriate.
Thanks.
Mr Steve Bambrick - 0:56:48
Chairman, if I may just add one bit more detail, just in relation to the, I guess, the first
point around communication on allocations.
And I think it's probably just important clarification to say that when there is a publication of
sites, those at this stage will not be allocations.
So we are not at the stage yet of the plan where we are proposing specific sites that
will be allocated in the plan.
The sites that will be published will be a series of sites that have obviously been submitted
through the process and have been subject to an initial assessment but have not been
that by no means have those assessments been completed.
and part of the process of publishing them and engaging with members and with parishes and with the public is to also
understand any potential implications of those sites before a decision is then made as to whether those sites are
ultimately allocated in the plan. So I think it's important particularly given members of the public that may be
listening to this that every opportunity is taken that when those sites are published at this stage, they are not yet allocations.
Thank you for your response, I'll listen to the rest of the members points.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:58:05
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:58:08
Just a quick follow up on that, obviously when that comes out, we understand that those
sites, not all of them necessarily are going to be used within the local plan.
But if they're not, my understanding is you probably only just about cover the numbers
which are required from those.
If some of those sites are not going to be acceptable for different reasons, then how
do we actually find the other sites that we're going to need to actually come up with the
housing numbers?
Mr Steve Bambrick - 0:58:41
So I think just speaking more generally, I think the process is that first and foremost
we have a responsibility in preparing the plan to see whether or not we are capable
of meeting the needs for Buckinghamshire ourselves and that's the process that we're going through.
And I mean, I don't think we can preempt what that is going to tell us in terms of
what the capability is of meeting the needs of Buckinghamshire.
But in the event that we are unable to meet those needs,
then we are under an obligation to cooperate with our neighbours.
And our neighbours equally, so it's called the duty to cooperate.
So we should be having ongoing conversations with our neighbours
about the ability for some of those needs to be met outside of Buckinghamshire.
So that will also form part of the process that we are both in now and will
continue to be in throughout the process until we get to the Regulation 19 plan.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 0:59:42
Thank you. I've got Councillor Ng then Councillor Roberts and then Councillor Morgan.
Sorry, after Councillor Ng is Councillor Feeley. Sorry, I missed him on the list.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Hung first and then you.
Do I?
Councillor Hung first and then yourself Patrick.
Sorry.
Thank you Chairman.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:59:58
Chairman I apologise I have to leave quite soon actually
because I have to get to Central London for a meeting
but thank you very much.
I've got two questions if you don't mind.
Thank you to my colleague next to me for raising infrastructure.
Chairman as you know and to the Kevin members,
the government has maintained 95 ,000 homes for Buckinghamshire
but they've not provided, as far as I understand,
infrastructure funding to support them.
We already know what happens when housing outpaces
infrastructure, overcrowded schools,
overwhelmed GP surgeries, gridlocked roads, raw sewage,
et cetera, et cetera.
What is the quantified funding gap in Pounds for Buckinghamshire?
What specific representations has our council
made to the central government to close the gap,
if there is a gap?
For example, have we made requests to meet with the housing minister?
Have we submitted bids to the housing infrastructure fund, the levelling fund?
Because if the government imposes housing numbers, then they really should be helping
to pay for infrastructure, because otherwise our residents will suffer.
And I would like, I'm sure this committee would like this council to make the case for
that.
Thank you.
That's the first question I have.
Thank you.
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:01:18
If I may, Chairman, there was a similar question actually asked at the budget scrutiny sessions.
I think the important thing to recognise is as part of the plan preparation, we will be
preparing an infrastructure delivery plan.
Part of preparing the infrastructure delivery plan is obviously engaging with infrastructure
providers for them to be able to respond on site specific issues about where those infrastructure
gaps lie.
So as part of the preparation of the plan and the infrastructure delivery plan, we publish
the sites, we engage with infrastructure providers on those specific sites, they feed back to
us about where the gaps may be.
And at that stage, we're able to quantify what the infrastructure gaps may be and also
then look at ways in which we might be able to fill those gaps.
So we're not in a place now because we of course haven't published those sites,
we haven't started in earnest the engagement of the infrastructure providers.
As we get the detail of the sites, the locations, and
the specific gaps, then they can feed into the infrastructure delivery plan.
And that's the process where we will identify those gaps.
Just following up, so do we have enough time?
because if we don't know what the funding gap is at the moment
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:02:33
and the plan's coming out in July,
how can this plan pass the soundness test,
the effective test of soundness, deliverable over the plan period?
If we cannot yet, you know, we cannot demonstrate now
how the infrastructure will be funded,
how is that going to pass any sort of soundness plan? Sorry.
So, and again, we are on a very tight timetable.
I, you know, I make no apology for that.
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:02:56
the timetable is set by government,
we need to hit the December 26th deadline,
we've published our local development scheme,
which sets out the steps we need to take,
we are confident that,
provided we continue to hit the timetable,
that we can do the steps that are necessary.
We actually have regular meetings
with the planning inspectorate,
so they come in and do a kind of effect,
to be a health cheque of our process to make sure,
given their experience of these things, that we are on track.
So we're satisfied, given some of that assurance
as well, that we can meet the timetable.
But I'm not going to pretend that it's not
a tight timetable.
It is.
We'll come back.
Yeah, I think what we're reiterating from the committee
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:03:46
here is I think we get infrastructure
where you've got the housing and you've
things that need to happen within that particular development and just outside.
And I think the biggest concern we have, particularly in the north of the county
and other areas where we know, particularly the roads, we're one of those
where we know the infrastructure to link communities, particularly as they get much
bigger safely, is something that I would suspect most developers are not going to
be prepared to pay for.
And that's really what I think is the underlying concern that
sits here.
As we're coming to very tight deadlines to deliver the plan,
how we get a level of comfort on that,
and I suppose our experience is one of the items that's
at the back end of this agenda, which
is we're talking about the Elsbury link road,
and how difficult that has been.
That is really the example.
and that's surrounded by housing.
So this is the concern.
So I've just sort of raised that as where these concerns are coming from.
And as an infrastructure committee, the housing and
the infrastructure needs to be coming together.
So I'm gonna go back to council.
Thank you very much.
One last question for me before I've got to go.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:05:09
At the last committee hearing here, I specifically raised about grey belts.
And I'm gonna come back to that.
At the last committee hearing, we were told that the council has retained a King's Council
to advise on grey belt policy.
Yet since then, the High Court has squashed the Hotspur in Beckingsfield's decision
for failing to properly apply grey belt policy.
And just last week, the national government itself has submitted a serious logical error
in its grey belt assessment in South Park, in neither data centre application, conceding
that the decision should be squashed.
Now, if the central government cannot get
Graybelt policy right, what confidence can residents
in Buckinghamshire have in this council's methodology?
What is our operational definition of Graybelt?
Who signed off the assessments?
And what assurance can you give this committee
that our draught and future local plan
will not face the same legal challenges
that overturned Hotspur's decision?
Thank you.
I know there's a topic we've discussed several times,
Cllr Michael Bracken - 1:06:18
and I think it is very, very important.
I think it's important to be very clear
on what is that definition of GRACOG,
because it is contained in a combination of things.
It's contained in an MPPF draught, sorry,
an adopted MPPF, and it's adopted in some guidance notes.
I would note that under the latest proposed draught
for the MPPF that is under consultation,
that those guidance notes are now incorporated
into the draught MPPF itself,
which I know is something that people
had focused on in the past.
I do think that that methodology,
as it's laid out in the combination of those documents,
is actually quite clear,
and that is the basis on which we've been working
in developing our own Greenbelt review.
But I think sometimes we are sort of expecting
some other authority to give us more guidance
as there already is,
And I think there is actually pretty clear guidance
in the combination of those two documents.
But as I highlighted, even last week,
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:07:17
the government's application of the MPPF grey belt methodology
got squashed in the High Court.
So even the national government doesn't
seem to be getting it right.
How can we be sure that we're getting it right?
Well, as part of the local plan process,
for our green belt assessment, we
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:07:35
have appointed and commissioned experts in this field
who undertake the reviews, and they undertake reviews
across the whole of the country where Greenbelt is concerned.
Those reviews are subject to external examination
through independent inspectors, and they're also
subject to challenge.
So we are appointing experts in their field,
and that's what you would expect us to do.
and they are also subject to cheque and challenge through the process.
That's the local plan process is designed to introduce that cheque and challenge.
So that's the assurance I can give you that we are using the best people possible
with the right expertise to undertake those assessments.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Feeley.
Got there again in the end.
Excuse me.
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 1:08:30
My understanding is obviously the plan is moving forward and you're on schedule, which
is good.
But the ultimate aim is that the plan should be in place by 27, 28.
And if that's the case, the problem I have is what's going to happen in the meantime.
Because at the moment, we're inundated by speculative building applications.
Is there any work that could be done, Steve, in taking some of the sites that we've had
where we call for them to put them through the healer process and then make them available
in the short term so that we can build back our five year plan, five year land supply.
Because at the moment we could be getting an inspectative applications for sites that
we would not agree with in the main plan and that's going to cause us more problems.
So I just wonder if there's something to protect the here and now and particularly in errors
as we veil and I wick them who have got plans
and whether there's anything we could do with it.
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:09:41
So we have actually been tracking the specs of sites
Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader - 1:09:45
against potential local plan sites.
So we've been looking quite carefully
where potential local plan sites are overlapping
with the specs of sites that are coming in
to make sure that we're working consistently between planning policy and development management.
So we are aware that there's some sites that may come forward ahead of the local plan
if they are identified as suitable for the local plan.
So just going back to your question about is there anything we can kind of do in the meantime,
we're trying to focus our efforts on sites which we know we want to support
versus sites which are truly speculative and aren't within the wider local plan strategy that's now evolving.
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 1:10:35
We're getting so many speculative applications which we're finding very difficult to defend.
And that's the problem with it because at the moment paragraph 11 is acted on the MPPF.
We have no five -year land supply. There's a presumption in favour.
So what we've got to do is try and demonstrate harm.
and in some cases that's extremely difficult.
So we could end up with sites that we would consider normally inappropriate.
And if I may, that is exactly the reason why we need an up -to -date local plan,
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:11:05
because I'm afraid there's no easy answer to a defence against speculative applications
in the situation we find ourselves in,
other than work as quickly and as fast as possible
to have an upstate local plan in place.
That is our best defence against unwanted
speculative applications, and that's the focus
and the priority of the team.
I think as Charlotte says, we still rely on sites
that coming forward as applications,
we can't force developers or applicants
to bring them forward as applications,
but where sites do come forward as specular applications,
if through our assessments, through development management,
we consider them to be appropriate,
and they would ordinarily be appropriate
and potentially be included in a future local plan,
then that's advice that we can give to a planning committee
to look at those particular applications,
but I'm afraid it's not straightforward
and it's not an easy situation.
I understand the difficulty of the interim period,
but the sooner we get the plan in place the best defence that can be.
On a similar note
we've seen some
Cllr Patrick Fealey - 1:12:23
situations where they're coming forward on speculative build that land previously have been allocated for employment
and we're now seeing them where they're coming in and they wanted to build 200 homes on it, which again is a
a complete change. I know I've seen where inspectors indicate that we are oversupplied with
employment land, so that's presumably an area that we're going to be looking at.
Yes, in short, I mean I think that
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:12:55
you know where we're looking at applications that might be repurposing employment land again similarly to housing
we'd look at you know what the the new need might be in the new local plan.
and we'd compare that to what exists
and what may be coming forward through a call for sites,
and we'd give planning committees appropriate advice
as to whether or not in individual circumstances
applications could be accepted,
and those in some circumstances could help alleviate
some of the pressure on speculative schemes.
Just a quick question on that.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:13:29
On sites you already know, which are employment sites,
where they are in such a location,
that it would be a major loss if we actually have them converted into
housing. Are we actually intending to use I think Article 4 to try and stop that
from happening? I know that in my own ward there's a couple of areas which have gone
recently which are near the M40 and M40 sites and not really what we should be
and losing unemployment.
So yes, I think we've certainly used,
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:14:05
and some of the legacy councils have used,
Article 4 previously,
which effectively takes away any permitted development
rights so that rather than being automatically converted,
sites need to go through a planning process.
And I know that in some cases,
some of those Article 4s have expired
and there's an opportunity for us to review those.
And there is a process ongoing at the moment
of reviewing the sites where a future use
of Article IVs might be appropriate.
Thank you.
Councillor Roberts.
Yeah, a couple of points.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:14:40
And one was on this point about employment sites, actually.
Cllr Mark Roberts - 1:14:43
So I'll start with that one, which was, I mean,
we do want to maintain employment,
and we've got this risk of losing
to permitted development rights.
But it's also a case of where employment applications and employment use is maintained,
but the volume and quality of the employment on those sites is an important factor.
So I just wanted to understand how in the local plan that's going to be addressed to make sure that,
although it might be, A, an employment use, is it an employment use that is going to be a productive,
and quality employment use and how in the local plan we're going to address that issue.
The second one is I understand that there is in process an update to the MPPF revisions
that have been around for consultation at the moment.
So I just really wanted to understand how that would impact our local plan making ourselves
in relation to the draughts that are being discussed at present.
Let me answer the second question first and then Charlotte will come in on the first.
Cllr Peter Strachan - 1:16:04
The current plan -making system, providing we do it in time, uses the current MPPF.
If we fall behind so that the planning system moves to the right
and the new MPPF after consultation is approved,
that's when it will come into effect.
But as things stand at the minute, my understanding,
Charlotte's nodding at me, is that the plan is made
with the current MPPF, not the new one.
But let me hand back to Charlotte
for your first question, Councillor, if I may.
If I could just ask on the MPPF question then.
Cllr Mark Roberts - 1:16:39
So if the MPPF is then subsequently changed
and that comes into effect after our local plan is adopted,
what's our situation then?
I can answer that one.
Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader - 1:16:55
So from a legal perspective, our plan will be tested
under the 2024 MPPF.
However, in the draught MPPF, it says that if policies are not
in alignment, then limited weight will be given.
So we actually need to, whilst the legal test will be the current MPPF, we need to look ahead to make sure
the direction of travel
is aligning with the latest government
recommendations in terms of national policy. So that will be
another challenge for the plan. I think that's fair to say because we're having to really align with two sets of guidance.
So that's something that the team are doing at the moment to kind of see where there might
be difficulties in sort of what the current policy position is and what it may be.
But of course it is only draught, it might change.
And I think hopefully by the summer we might have more of an idea of what those draught proposals
will be.
Just in terms of your question on sort of employment and ensuring we get the right quality
and sort of jobs densities, I think is what you're referring to.
So within what we call our employment land review,
which is the evidence that identifies how much employment we need,
but also what type of employment.
So within that, it splits down the requirements for, for example, office,
warehousing, research and development.
So a local plan will look to meet those specific employment needs
within the different categories to make sure we get an appropriate split of all the different uses
and taking into account the jobs that each of those uses provides.
Cllr Mark Roberts - 1:18:50
If I may just add on that those MPPF gaps potentially between the new one that are in draught
it could be helpful for members to have some understanding or briefing or note that explains
some of that so that the wider than the group who are here have an understanding of what
that issue might be.
Yeah, and let me give you an assurance that as these things develop we will have member
Cllr Peter Strachan - 1:19:10
briefings as part of our normal training programme.
So as we get changes which are significant, then I can assure you that we will brief the
community in general, as well as parishes in their regular forums as well.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:19:32
Thank you. Councillor Morgan. Thank you. I think one of my questions around infrastructure has been answered.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:19:34
So my first question was about Brownfield sites and the local plan. It's this council's aspiration to, you know, use Brownfield over Greenbelt.
And yet I believe in this local plan there's less than 3 % brownfield that's been identified
Is that it or are we seeking to try and identify more?
Brownfield sites, you know what what has been done to try and identify as many brownfield sites as possible
And so our first two call for sites were specifically for
Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader - 1:20:11
brownfield sites and so we received
I think it was about over 100 sites for Brownfield,
but typically they are quite small sites.
So the local plan has a threshold of five dwellings
and above in terms of an allocation.
Anything under that is likely to come forward
through the windfall.
So that's sites that aren't planned for
within the local plan.
We've also been working with the regeneration team
within the council and the different strategies
that we have in Aylesbury, Chesham and High Wycombe
and to look at opportunities there.
And we've also been looking specifically at site details
in terms of capacity to make sure
that we maximise those sites.
And so alongside the draught plan consultation last year,
we published a study called an urban potential study,
which looked at different Brownfield town centre sites
across Buckinghamshire with key typologies
for how those sites could be maximised.
So we've done several call for sites,
we've got bespoke evidence, if you like,
to try and maximise these type of sites,
but I think it's a fair point to make
that we still kind of on balance,
we have a limited supply of these types of sites.
So I just kind of want to give you some assurance
that we have been looking at all opportunities,
but acknowledging that in terms of the other approaches,
it is one of the smaller supply ones.
On the back of that,
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:21:53
is there anything we're able to do as a planning authority
that would encourage developers to try and find
brownfield sites and develop them?
Is there anything we can actually give them a positive
encouragement from our side or not.
So I think there are things that we either already do
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:22:22
or would automatically do in the new local plan anyway,
which is effectively to kind of give priority
to Brownfield previously developed sites.
That's a kind of effectively a national policy.
It's a policy that's certainly supported by this council
that's been reiterated on many occasions.
And so I would anticipate there will be policies contained
within the plan that would encourage the kind of
repurposing and reuse of Brownfield previously developed
sites ahead of Greenfield sites in the local plan.
That's certainly the process we're
following when it comes to allocations in the plan.
And therefore, when it also comes
to windfalls, as Charlotte says, we
would anticipate that kind of as many as possible
of those windfalls, sites coming forward through Brownfield sites and we'd have
policies in the plan to encourage that. Thank you.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:23:16
Cllr Michael Collins - 1:23:20
Councillor Collins. A brief thank you if possible chair, not a question. There are
still many outstanding issues that need to be addressed however the time
structure forced upon us has placed huge difficulties on our team and we should
thank them for their excellent efforts. There are some of us who worked on
Valp and I think it took us about four years so what our team here have
achieved in a relatively short period of time is quite remarkable and I think we
should be thanking them. There's still work to be done but I think it's been a
tremendous effort on their part and literally thank you for all that you
have achieved. Thanks Councillor Collins that's very much appreciated the team
Cllr Peter Strachan - 1:24:07
are working very hard we are hugely aware of the time pressures that we're
working under but I can assure you there is not a day goes by where we don't have
a conversation about the local plan but thank you for your kind words.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:24:22
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 1:24:25
Councillor Sutchby. Just to return to the issue of for or against I don't think
we really got the answer on to deliver the numbers whether the council will be
considering a new town. I think we skirted around that in words but not in
yes and no answers. I think it's very probably necessary to get the housing
numbers long term that you will have to deliver a new town but you didn't say
yes we will be looking at doing that or no we won't be because it makes a hell
of a difference to wherever in Buckinghamshire that new town may go.
Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader - 1:25:06
So perhaps if I refer back to the consultation that was undertaken last year on Regulation
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:25:09
18 of the plan, one of the things that we specifically consulted on was the various
different options for how we might meet the needs and that included new towns, effectively
or new developments.
And I think we indicated then that given the level of numbers,
it was likely that not what, you know,
we couldn't just pick one of those approaches and say,
we're just going to do that or we're just going
to do something else.
That a combination of all
of the approaches was likely to be needed.
Now again, I reiterate, I think we're in a place
where we're not at the state where we're able
to say these are the allocations that are going in the plan.
I think the next stage of publication will be a combination
of sites that are potentially suitable,
but have yet to go through further levels
of technical assessment.
So that is likely to include all of those different
approaches, which would include potential kind of new towns
or expanding existing settlements to the extent
that they would effectively become new towns.
I think that's likely,
and that was part of the consultation that we've already undertaken.
Thank you for the part, Arthur, but the real problem would be is infrastructure delivery.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 1:26:28
It is evident, judging by what's happened historically, when new towns have been delivered.
They're very good at delivering infrastructure to that new town and catering with their needs.
you can plan a new town easier than bolting stuff on fractured communities
throughout Buckinghamshire to get your numbers and create in and to generate
enough money from a development and a plan and you also can with a new town do
what they did in Milton Keynes have a development corporation to deliver that
new town with only one purpose so so I think that the the part arts around it
doesn't address the numbers, whatever the numbers finally are, they are what they are,
and we can discuss that. But to deliver it, if we haven't got these sites, the new town option has
to be considered. And it does deliver its own infrastructure, and it is a manageable thing.
Although it won't happen so quickly, but in the life of the plan, it will meet the needs that you
have to address. So I think, yes, we were looking at it, or no, you must know at this stage whether
it's a nasty component because if we don't, we're going to be consulting on the site allocations
and they're going to be very short because that's just how it is. So I think an answer
around the Newtown probability of being a high probability or a low probability, I think
it's as far as you could probably go, but a yes or no answer isn't going to come.
We can only reiterate what's been said, Chairman.
Cllr Peter Strachan - 1:28:08
The numbers are not yet refined.
So with respect, Councillor Stutry is making assumptions about a point in planning time
which we're not there yet.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:28:22
No, I think where we are as we know and what was said from the original document is we're
we're gonna have to use all methods to come anywhere near the figures that
they're not probably with a high probability means you're gonna have to
look at a new town somewhere and you have comes with different
infrastructure issues because the internal parts fine that's the bit I was
talking about earlier the mass of population that goes into that and its
connectivity on what might have been a village or a small settlement before
as the core of it, would not be able to cope with whatever is around it.
So that's why that outside of the site element,
which is sort of what we're getting at,
that we've been pussyfooting around a little bit about it.
And the other thing that had come very strongly from the committee
in the report that we sent was the concerns we got on the back,
particularly of the Wickham local plan,
which has got lots of smaller sites all over the place.
And that doesn't come with any real infrastructure,
any real improvement of roads.
Trying to get something from the ICB for GP surgery is driving all of us
completely nuts who have anything to do with that.
So in reality, these things are a problem.
And that's why we did put in that the sites,
to some extent around Aylesbury were an example where you create a site which has
which are much bigger and they actually come with a lot more infrastructure you start putting a lot of small sites in and
All they're doing is they're gonna piggyback off what's already there and put everything under pressure
And so that was really the message that we were trying to get across
There was a hand up over here. I've got a counsellor here and then
And then council
Thank you.
Thanks for your hard work.
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 1:30:18
My key issue is I'd just like to hear how much it is a priority
to sort of create a narrative around this housing,
because we've got a big issue with retaining
key workers, teachers, medics, and emergency services.
And yet, the affordable housing is still
proving difficult to deliver when
you see the numbers that are estimated
to begin with and the numbers that are finally delivered.
So one of the things in the report was suggested,
and planning permissions include a binding requirement
for developers to provide a specific proportion.
I'd like to see a narrative that enables people growing up here
to know that there's a job here, that they can afford to live here.
And what I fear is with trying to meet numbers,
we lose that and we end up with people moving out of the area
further north, as we've seen previously.
because they can't afford to live here,
the number of teachers turning over quite rapidly
as people get qualified and then move out the area
to find affordable accommodation,
it would be good to know that there's a priority
to a narrative to allow people who grow up here
to know that there is a chance for them to stay here
and making sure that we work really hard
to make those affordable housing targets stick.
Thank you.
Cllr Peter Strachan - 1:31:46
Yeah, I guess there's two answers to the question.
Firstly, there are percentages of affordable housing baked into the policies.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is to say that the last time we attempt to build any housing of this kind
of number was when we built council estates in the 1950s and 60s, and that was done with
public money.
But the government's policy is to rely on the development
industry to build its housing, not using public money.
So therefore, we're very much hostage to fortune of what the
development system is allowed to do.
So developers can get permission for development
and then immediately apply for a variance.
And that variance might be affordable housing
or other things.
So, you know, the system is difficult from that point of
and I think we all acknowledge that we need more affordable housing,
we need housing for key workers, we need housing for young people,
and percentages to provide that are baked into the policies.
Do you want to add?
Sorry, can I just add one small thing?
Mr Steve Bambrick - 1:32:56
So part of the evidence base that informs the policy provision
is the housing needs assessment,
And you may have heard Councillor Wynne, the cabinet
member for housing, talking about some
of the specifics of that.
Because that also sets out the types of affordable housing
that's needed across the county at various parts.
And so again, we use that evidence,
and we use the support from colleagues in the housing
department to also inform decisions about policy
provision but also decisions about individual sites and how they might be
delivered and again just to reiterate I think what Councillor Strachan has said I
think the importance of delivering that level of you know affordable key worker
housing across the county is it has always been important but is increasingly
important for all the reasons that you've outlined so there is a there is a
real priority to ensure a we deliver that policy in the plan and B we can
and deliver it on site when the sites come forward.
Councillor Morgan.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:34:07
Yeah, I'll say it before and I'll say it again.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:34:09
I think it's a mistake that this council doesn't look
at building our own housing.
Cause I think at this point,
it's the only way we're ever gonna try
and clear the backlog.
I think reliance on developers,
and that's not really for this meeting, isn't a good thing.
I know you said about talking with neighbouring authorities
on infrastructure delivery, but I also wondered if there had been a conversation with neighbouring
authorities about unmet need and what their unmet need was versus our unmet need, or is
that a conversation that will happen once the call for sight has been done?
So we have started to have duty to cooperate discussions with our neighbours where we have
Charlotte Morris - Planning Policy Team Leader - 1:34:53
indicated that at this stage we cannot confirm whether or not we can meet our housing needs and
So we are it's partly why we need to share the sites so they can comment on those and but it won't be until
Nearer to the final version of the local plan where we can be definitive whether or not we can meet our housing needs
And so we have also been in discussions with slough
they've indicated in the past that they may have some unmet needs and so
So, those conversations are ongoing and as the plans evolve, then we'll have more certainty
on what the position is.
Thank you.
Are there any more questions at all?
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:35:35
We've sort of come to the end of the session.
Thank you very much for attending.
I think there are key things which we are underlining here, which you'd expect us to.
Infrastructure has come up quite a lot throughout it and concerns on that and building it and
we listened to what you said, but it is going to be important for the whole community.
Obviously, as the cabinet member said, the whole of Buckinghamshire is going to be impacted
with this from now on for very many years to come, and trying to get that right is going
to be the most important thing.
that as we get information it's going to be important to share that with members
and I know you've talked about with parishes as well. The meeting that we're
going to have for all members is going to be face -to -face is my understanding
which is which is good and they'll be recorded. It may be, well it would be
useful I think, once you do have the green belt analysis and the other
analysis whether the members here could get a briefing prior to that doesn't have to be a lot
before but just so that we're aware of what's what's within it um and also particularly on
the MPPF I know you talked about briefing generally the members but again the elements
which are going to be um could cause issues between uh in the local plan development
would be useful to I think to know once you've got a real feel for for what that is and again for
for us to get some kind of briefing on that.
So it could be just a session where putting some of those things together would be useful.
But thank you very much for your time.
Thank you, Chairman.
And those points were acknowledged.
And as we've said, we're going to write to you anyway formally following your comments
Cllr Peter Strachan - 1:37:26
to us more recently.
But thank you, Committee, and good luck for the rest of your deliberations.
Thank you.
And thanks to my team for helping.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:37:36
Thank you.
.
We are just waiting for the cabinet member to arrive.
I think they should be waiting outside.
Thank you.
We'll now move to item eight,

8 Buckinghamshire Archives

that's the Buckinghamshire archives
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:39:36
and that's on the report is on pages 23 to 36 of your pack.
Can I welcome the cabinet member,
Councillor Peter Brazier,
Cabinet for Culture and Leisure
and also the deputy cabinet member,
Catherine Oliver to the meeting.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:39:55
They are supported by the officers,
Sophie Payne, Service Director for Culture,
Sport and Leisure and Daniel Williams, County and D 'Arcyst and Archivist.
Can I ask you to introduce the item?
Thank you Chairman and good afternoon everybody.
Cllr Peter Brazier - 1:40:25
So our County Archives Service collects, preserves and makes accessible the history and heritage of Buckinghamshire.
it holds records going back over 800 years. Having an archive is a statutory service and ours is fully
accredited with the National Archives which ensures records are not only preserved to the
highest standards but are made available to the public and the services that need them. The service
also provides accredited archive services to Milton Keynes Council as well as holding collections of
local and national importance such as the collection of the National Paralympic Heritage
Trust which recognises Stoke Mandeville's crucial role in developing the Paralympic Games movement.
The service is also the record office for the Anglican Church administrative area for Buckingham.
You will see from the report that the archives aren't just about keeping old papers.
It does important work engaging with the wider community, be that through schools, social media,
local museums, libraries, and even our prisons. Our archive staff also support nearly 40 volunteers,
apprenticeships, and interns who do valuable work across the service. The service also provides
internal support to council services, including rights -of -way, legal, democratic services,
electoral services, communications, and of course our libraries. On social media,
they've had over 26 ,000 engagements this year or last year across the most common platforms.
And I don't know if it's worth going to cheque out Buckinghamshire archives social media feeds.
They're on all the usual X and blue sky and one of the archivists kind of started doing a series
of videos which incredibly they're short, amusing but most importantly entertaining.
and informative. So it's worth going to cheque those out. The service scores well
in customer satisfaction and they're rightly proud of rating over 90 % on all
feedback scores. And the service is always happy to offer tour of the
archives. If you've not been I can recommend getting a tour. If you let them
know where you are from they'll get some stuff out relevant to your local area
It's quite interesting. I've done it a couple of times, as well as being a user of the archives.
It's well worth a visit. It's very interesting. Ask for the special behind the scenes tour.
So the archives been in Walton Street since the 1960s and it's full. It's effectively full.
Without more space to store and operate, we risk losing accreditation.
So fortunately, Unitree has given us an opportunity to create a new purpose -built facility.
So I'm sure you are all aware of the plans and the preparations for moving the archives to a new purpose -built facility in Denmark Street in High Wycombe.
So this will ensure we remain accredited and it will enable the service to provide even better support to our residents and the users of the archive.
There is obviously more detail on that in the report, but it's a very important move
and a long time in the planning.
So pleased to have with me here Daniel Williams, who's our county and diocese archivist, Sophie
Payne, our service director, and Catherine here, my deputy.
So happy to take questions.
Thank you.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:44:17
I've got questions from Council Cornell, Arthur Hewett and Collins and then Morgan and I'll go around to the others in a minute.
Thank you very much for that, thank you Chair, thank you very much for that Councillor Fraser.
Councillor Fraser, you're going to move to High Wycombe, yes?
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:44:37
So when you move to High Wycombe, the north of County then loses out, doesn't it?
Because High Wycombe is quite a long schlep down.
So that the south of County, yet again, benefits from everything.
So what are we going to do about that?
Well, there's not a lot we can do about it.
Cllr Peter Brazier - 1:44:57
The ability or the facility is only available to us in High Wycombe, where we've got the space.
The space in Walton Street just isn't big enough anymore and there's nowhere else to put it.
I don't know if you want to add any more to that.
Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities - 1:45:19
Thanks. So we already run quite a comprehensive programme of outreach activity that's detailed in the report and Daniel will be happy to talk about that in more detail.
You'll have seen we also provide a service to Milton Keynes Council as well for the archives.
So the plan will very much remain for the future
that we will continue to be delivering those outreach
services, as well as our really comprehensive online offering,
which means that people from actually all over the county
currently, and indeed all over the country and the world,
do access our archives now.
And that will be prolonged.
Can I just come back?
We have very poor bus service and transport service
from the north down to the south.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:45:54
So it's actually very difficult for schools,
out of thought and other people to come and have a look at these archives which I'm hoping
to have a tour of, please Councillor Brazier, before you move it because it'll be too far
for me to go to High Wycombe. But is there any way that we can actually get children
from the north of the county down here, make some provision for them or offer the schools
a chance to come down because I think it might be very interesting for the children to know.
So we have a range of virtual offers.
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 1:46:28
We have a virtual classroom so that we can engage with schools virtually.
Admittedly, using the original archive, you can't really beat that, but we have the virtual
classroom offer.
We're also planning with Milton Keynes to have an onsite search room in Milton Keynes
with two different venues every month when we have moved.
So we will physically take archives from the new site up to the north of the county up to Milton Keynes
So that people can see pre -arranged
orders actually on site up there and
We have the virtual search room so that anybody anywhere in the world can
Look at original documents from the comfort of their own home as well
So we've put in a range of different measures to try and sort of mitigate that
The last one, I promise I'll stop there.
But if you're going to go to Milton Keynes, why couldn't you come to Buckingham, which
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:47:18
is actually much easier for people in the North to come to get to.
And you could say use the University of Buckingham there or something like that, or the community
centre.
But we've got people in TOWAS and Westbury, it's a long, long way for them to go even
to Milton Keynes.
Just a thought.
So we're always open to those new ideas about how we can do it.
So these are the things that we already have in place.
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 1:47:39
But we're genuinely open to have those conversations to see how else that we might be able to help the residents.
Councillor Arthur -Hewitt.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:47:51
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 1:47:53
Thank you, and thanks for telling us about your great work, especially on the digital support archive projects.
It's very interesting to know what you've been working on and been able to achieve. I've just got a couple of questions.
First one, it states in the report that the Denmark Street home offers 20 % expansion space.
Given the large amount of events and work that you're going to have to archive that
comes in 20 years after they're happening, so from now it's for stuff for 2006 onwards,
including I presume the thousands of HS2 records, what's your estimate on how long the Denmark
street location will be viable for before it becomes full, and do you have any contingency
if it should?
And the second question was, could you please explain how the layout of the archives and
exhibition space is maximising footfall and also accessibility to deliver on the
sell that the archives will bring more people to Wickham for it to financially
benefit so there are my two questions thank you. You want to take that? Thanks
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 1:48:55
Daniel. So in terms of the expansion space we checked with the National
Archives in London what they view would be acceptable and appropriate and they
both appropriate and meeting the services needs moving forward.
In terms of new records we're taking in, they're increasingly what we call born digital rather
than sort of physical format records.
And the service has subscription to software called Preservica.
So a lot of the new records that we're taking in at the moment are not necessarily physical
but electronic.
So we have plans and we already have things in place to preserve and make accessible those digital records.
That was the first question. I can't remember the second question.
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 1:49:47
Just to finish on the first question, so do you have a period of time that you consider to be viable for at least the next 20 years or at least the next 30 years?
Do you have anything written down about how long it's viable for in terms of storage as you know it?
The second question was about how you're maximising footfall with the design and delivery and also accessibility
in terms of increasing footfall to the businesses around Wickham to benefit from it fully. Thank you.
Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities - 1:50:21
On the first question, we're working to the National Archives accreditation standards, which is the 20 % expansion space.
I think it's difficult to put a specific timeline on the length of time that that equates to,
because we are regularly approached by different parties in terms of seeking for us to take
their archives and conserve those. Obviously we've got a specific policy around what we do take on
and that guides us in that future. So I don't know, Daniel, if you want to say any more,
But we're certainly working to what
is industry standard in terms of that expansion space.
And as is reflected in the report,
the National Archives have been very closely involved
in this move process and in reviewing the plans
to make sure that we are hitting the mark there.
In terms of the layout question, so again,
Danielle's a bit more familiar with the space in Denmark
Street, but it is certainly a marked improvement
in terms of what we have got currently
in the basement of the county offices here in Aylesbury, just in terms of a physical
environment but also the geographic location which is obviously Bangslap in the middle
of the shopping centre but Daniel you may want to add.
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 1:51:38
So the new space that we have for what we call the public search room is actually significantly
bigger than what we already have and what we already have is quite big.
So what we are planning is to work with local organisations and have exhibitions ourselves
to try and draw people in.
We've also been visiting other archives
to learn from their good practise,
particularly Manchester Archives is bringing to mind
where they have a lot of technology
which is very interactive.
So what I really want in a new site is if people,
obviously we want them to come in to use the archives,
but we want them to come in and have a look
at the exhibitions to engage with Wickham
and Buckinghamshire's history,
sort of electronically interactive.
So I want it to be a place where people just want to come anyway, which is right in the centre of High Wycombe.
In terms of accessibility, all of the architects have been involved in making sure it's meeting all of the relevant standards around that as well.
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 1:52:36
Thank you, and thanks for your explanation about how long you deem it to be viable for the storage facilities.
I mean, I totally get that things are going digital.
My chief concern is that because it's such a big move and such an expense, it would be
good to know that there was a, if it's coming, that there's a commitment to Wicca in terms
of what Wicca is getting.
And if extra storage was required, that would be something you'd have a contingency rather
than then need to move on, say like in 10 years and go, oh, actually we need a much
bigger space as well over there.
So just in terms of the commitment to Wickham in terms of it being a viable long -term location. I think is important
Thank you. Yeah, and just to reassure you on that front. Absolutely. This is a long -term move to to Wickham
Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities - 1:53:22
This isn't something that we would be embarking on every 10 years
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:53:30
Just raised yes councillor Bateman then councillor Collins
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 1:53:37
Thank you, Chair. So thank you very much for the report. It was very interesting. I'd like
to say I was very sad to hear of the moving to High Wycombe from the day it was announced
because most people would go to the county town for their archives and where we celebrate
the additional footfall in High Wycombe, it's a loss of footfall, commercial footfall in
Ellsbury. And I would like to say well done to Callum and the videos. They're very entertaining
and a breath of fresh air.
But in the reports, we've talked about in there
the accreditation and the risk of loss of that accreditation.
Is there a contingency plan if the relocation doesn't happen?
Is there a slip beyond 2027?
Is there any risk -related models that
have been created to deal with that scenario?
And would Ellsbury continue whilst you wait for Denmark
Street to be sorted?
Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities - 1:54:35
Thank you. So in terms of the build programme for the High Wycombe relocation
and we're confident that work is progressing and will be completed for us
to move in early 2027.
Councillor Collins.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:54:50
Cllr Michael Collins - 1:54:53
Yeah, thank you, Chairman.
I am Vice -Chairman of the Buckinghamshire Civilian Military Partnership and we're supported
by the Left Honesty.
We have a wealth of military history within the county.
It's a topic that is not for discussion here.
It's too big, it's too broad.
What I would like to do is invite on behalf of the board to invite Councillor Blaise to
come along for a very informal chat to understand the difficulties that we're experiencing at
the moment.
And I think at that meeting I'd like to bring maybe a couple of our DLs with us and also
the chairman of the military trust for the county just to understand the problems first and then maybe think out of the box a
Weep it to see what action would be possible
Cllr Peter Brazier - 1:55:54
Look forward to that. Thank you very much for the invite so we can obviously set that up offline. I
Understand we're planning a special display in highway command week that for for the military archives
So that will be something to look forward to.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Morgan followed by Councillor Roberts and then Councillor Suchry.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 1:56:13
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:56:17
I would be lying if I said that Ellsbury residents weren't really disappointed
that the archives were being moved out of the county town of Buckinghamshire, which is Ellsbury.
There didn't appear to be any kind of public consultation on the decision of this scale affecting the county's documentary heritage,
which has been there as long as I can remember.
It's a bit of a little historic site on its own.
I mean, I understand that we were about to lose our accreditation,
but I wonder what other sites you'd looked at to try and keep it in the county town and why.
Why High Wycombe? Why was this decision made? And why was there no consultation?
Even to Elsbury Town Council there was no consultation. I think there was a briefing given by the
regeneration team, but there was certainly no consultation.
The report stresses the importance of archives in strengthening local identity and sense of place.
So how was that principle applied to the decision to move the archives away from the County Town?
Thank you.
Cllr Peter Brazier - 1:57:28
Yeah, I can't answer the question about the consultation, perhaps you can, Sophie.
That was a bit before my time.
But yeah, I mean, basically it had to go somewhere.
And we, with the unitary council, we found ourselves with all sorts of buildings everywhere
and they're obviously being rationalised and made more efficient.
So perhaps Sophie if you can add to that.
I can add to the fact that we did consider other sites.
Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities - 1:58:04
There was a OnePublic Estate funded project some time prior
that had looked into a number of different locations,
including those in Owsbury.
Obviously the challenge here was the funding for those alternative premises
and the benefit of the Denmark Street relocation is that there is that funded solution.
So we were looking into the millions for creation of a new fit -for -purpose site in Aylesbury
or indeed conversion of an existing building.
And unfortunately as a service we just don't have that capital funding available to us.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:58:44
I'd still also like to know the answer to the public consultation part and why you felt
taking such a historic site away from the county town felt that it warranted no discussion
with Elsbury Town Council.
Sophie Payne - Service Director, Communities - 1:59:06
Apologies, I will need to take that one away in terms of checking out what actually took
place in terms of the consultation at the time.
I think it's important to state that we are not withdrawing a service from residents here
We are relocating a service and we have as we've already stated, you know, we will be continuing to provide that
outreach and the online
Provision to people absolutely understand that for some people it will be you know further for them to travel
We our current customer base is made up not just of Aylesbury residents though
it's worth stating we do have people currently
that travel to us from different parts of the county as well.
So there will be benefits for some,
and obviously less so for others in terms of that travel time.
But we remain committed to having that offer,
that we will come, as we've discussed,
we're really open to exploring with people
if there's a desire for us to come to visit different venues.
We're always keen to promote the archives
and to engage with our populations,
and particularly those that wouldn't traditionally have access to our cultural facilities.
If I may request that that report be given to this committee please because I would like some
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:00:16
oversight to make sure that the proper scrutiny actually happened before they decided to move
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:00:26
the archives out of the counter town. Yes I'll know that in my comments. Before I go to council
Roberts, one of the things which I think is important, I know you're talking about most
the new things that are coming in are probably going to be in a digital form.
How much of what you currently hold is digitally there and searchable? Because I
know so many people who are doing searches whether it's for degrees or
various things they're doing it online they're not generally coming to the
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 2:01:00
actual location. For a county archive the amount of or the percentage of
of records that we have that are catalogued is high.
I think it's, I'm going to put my neck out and say it's about 90%, but a lot of this
vast majority are searchable online through our online catalogue.
In terms of actually digitising documents for people to view, that is the Preserve -Occur
system that I mentioned a little bit earlier.
We've got about one and a half thousand record items on that at the moment we're always adding
to it.
And the plan is that when we have the on -site closure period, so we're not closing to
providing access to the archive for just on -sites we can prepare, we're going to launch this system so that there will be an extra
offer in terms of accessing the archives when we close.
So in terms of searchability and knowing what we've had and how you can access them,
I think actually we provide a really excellent level of coverage.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:01:59
Thank you, Kazian. I think with such a large county it's so important and obviously nationally
people are looking at things as well. Councillor Roberts, sorry to keep you waiting.
Cllr Mark Roberts - 2:02:09
Yeah, I paid a visit to the archives last year and I can recommend it to members. It
was absolutely fascinating actually. I'm going to return to the question of capacity. I understand
And there's national guidance about this 20 percent.
And I'm really pleased to hear about the born digital initiatives that you're taking in
digital records.
What I am aware of is other organisations are also digitising their records.
So I know, for instance, at Amersham Town Council, we've been digitising our burial
records and minute books and things like that.
and we'll be looking to the archives as a repository for the physical documents.
And so I'm envisaging in future there might be an uplift in the amount of demand for physical storage of documents from organisations
who have themselves digitised their records and no longer will be looking to the archives as that repository.
And so, that gives me a lot of concern about this 20 percent figure about whether it's
a risk there because of the increase in the amount of physical document storage from organisations
that have digitised their own records.
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 2:03:41
I suppose my response to that would be as I think Sophie articulated earlier, we were
looking at when we came up with a 20 % figure and discussed it with the National Archives,
we were looking at the trend for the records that we've been taking in over the past five
of years looking at the number of born digital records coming in.
So, I suppose my answer as a county and they also think archivist is that I'm confident
and the National Archives are confident
that 20 percent expansion space is certainly adequate for the service moving forward.
And there's some questions before around whether WICM is planning to move.
There's no plans to move that.
We're very committed to WICM.
And I think the expansion space that we've got will see us for the future.
Cllr Mark Roberts - 2:04:36
Yeah, and could I ask then if we could be looking at some figures on a regular basis
to provide about the amount of physical and digital records
that the archives are bringing in, just so that we can understand that
and see how that trend is progressing over future years.
That would be helpful to give the reassurance about future capacity.
Yeah, certainly.
Councillor Sabsbury.
Yeah, thank you.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:04:59
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 2:05:02
I'll explain the question after I've asked it.
Will you be doing anything running up to 2027 as the archives looking at the King Aflistan,
Aflistan being the first ever king of all England, and the records of Aflistan,
Alsbury being Mercia and Wessex being so close together.
Never uniting the three kingdoms,
or the last kingdom in Northumberland,
when Afulstam was the one who united us with Northumberland.
Everyone remembers Harold and everyone remembers Alfred,
but Afulstam was the first person to ever unite
the entire kingdoms of England
and establish the principle of England as an entity.
So with the move, will you be able to supply appropriate equipment to schools and education facilities up and down Buckinghamshire?
Because he's been the lost king in our lineage.
He's never been spoken about and actually brought forward with true vigour because he's the one which everyone needs to ignore.
or I say that because one's privileged enough to be in the doomsday book, my family, and
the people who came afterwards, taxed us from then on.
So I, a normal role seems to still be in prevail.
So the reason I ask the question is because if you're unable to facilitate that information
to the schools. I hope the schools will pick up on this because we should celebrate our treasured
assembly of the English history and the Archives can provide and will be able to provide the
connexions between the now county town of Owsbury, because it would have been Buckingham in those days,
and the connexion to the history. That's why I asked the question, with all the move,
Are you capable of providing that information?
I hope the school can pick up on this, because it's a great educational tool learning about
our history, our country, and how we actually became a nation.
And Afrostan is the one person who can define that.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Slatsbury, for that detailed question.
Cllr Peter Brazier - 2:07:29
I'm sure, I know for a fact that during the transition and during the move, our engagement with schools is not going to suffer.
We're going to be able to maintain that.
But as for the specific thing about Appleston and that part of history, I'm going to hand over to Daniel because that's way above my pay grade.
Daniel Williams - County Archivist - 2:07:55
My first starting point with that, to see what we have in the archives, I suspect is going to be too early for our records.
but if we have got anything, certainly we'll be very happy to share that with the schools and to promote it and encourage use of that.
If we don't, there may well be some records where we could potentially work with some other council departments,
a heritage team for example, which might have some records, archeological records, and see if we can do some joint and collaborative work.
I'm very happy to take that away and see what we can do.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 2:08:25
I always wanted to raise the underdog, Atherstown very much being historical underdog and I
like Dark Age histories, I just thought it was an opportunity to mutter on about it.
Thank you very much Councillor Sashby.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:08:36
Can I thank the cabinet member, deputy cabinet member and the officers for attending.
What we will try and do actually for the committee is to arrange a visit, particularly for those
who haven't been, I have been to the archives in Aylesbury.
I also understand why actually it probably needs to move
when you actually go and visit.
It will show you that some of the documents
are not necessarily as well protected as they should be
in that particular location.
So, but it's good to look at,
but we also would very much like to get an early look
at the new site so that we can look at
how people are gonna get access,
how you're gonna lay it out, get a view of that.
So maybe in that transition period,
that would be really good to make sure
that we note the point made by Councillor Morgan,
that she'd like to have some of the evidence in terms
of that consultation.
And also in terms of the numbers which
Councillor Roberts was talking about are the key things.
I think I'm optimistic that the new home will be a positive place.
The other element we need to make sure of is that we are getting out and
about to all the parts of the county.
And it may be linking in with some of the local museums or some things.
So in Amersham we have a museum, various places.
So I know where you can go and actually use those as bases and
see it as a way of reaching out as much as possible.
and also all of the digital and online things that you're doing,
which engages a different group of people, I think is very important.
Thank you very much for your time.
We'll just wait for the...
Other members to leave?
Thank you.

9 Aylesbury Housing Infrastructure Funding projects

We'll now move on to item 9, which is Aylesbury Housing Infrastructure funding projects.
They're on report pages 37 to 54.
And I'd like to welcome the leader of the council, Steve Bambrack.
Sorry, not Steve Bambrack, sorry.
Steve Broadbent, wrong line, and he is joined with Steve with Ban Breakers who's
rejoined the meeting, Corporate Director of Planning, Growth and Sustainability
and Hannah Austin, Service Director, HIF and Major Projects. If I call on the
cabinet member, sorry, the leader of council to introduce the item.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:11:42
Hello, thank you Chairman and thank you and hello to members of the committee.
Yes, I'm here as part of the annual update to the select committee for Aylesbury Link
Roads and of course that has a strong link to housing and infrastructure delivery under
the housing infrastructure fund.
What I don't know, Chair, is if these slides that were in the pack are coming up for public
viewing.
do we know or not? I don't know. No they're not. They're part of the pack.
We just go for the pack. It makes slight change. Everyone has basically got the pack.
Okay so hopefully people can see them on the pack. So obviously housing infrastructure fund
in general terms is something that we signed in as a council but applied for in September 2017.
who was awarded in 2020 and the funding requirement requires us to be spent out
by March 2028. I think in the slide pack you can see where the link roads that
really important bits of infrastructure around Aylesbury. There's a map on I've
got it as page pack 39 but I don't know if that is that's accurate still of all the
different parts of the road.
So this is like certainly a giant jigsaw puzzle
to try and put together.
And hopefully it's called, that slide is called
Aylesbury Link Road Plan V3.
So we can always refer back to that
to see where things connect.
The housing infrastructure fund
doesn't just cover the roads though.
It's probably worth noting it enables
some other infrastructure like cycleways, schools,
the electricity grid reinforcement.
But ultimately, the award came to support the housing growth
Aylesbury has been undergoing for 10 ,000 new homes.
Probably just worth saying, there is a sort of satellite image of the 10 ,000
homes with various highlighted elements on as I have it, page 41.
Well, these zones are called AGT and then a number.
So just to, this has moved on a bit.
So AGT 6 at the top right, for example, is Kingsbrook.
Next to that below is AGT 3, which is Woodlands.
AGT 4 is Hamden Fields and so on.
So people watching will obviously probably know
that more than the AGT numbers.
The, there are ten schemes that are complete in delivery
or in negotiation around Aylesbury, and they're listed
on what I've got as page 42.
And of course, usually when I'm talking about this,
I'm often found doing so in Orange, Hi -Vis, PPE.
Because you will have seen, for example,
the recent section of sealer being opened and the bridge lift on over Christmas.
So it's quite nice to not have to wear that today to talk to you.
The numbers are quite important.
So you'll see at the top of that table, we were originally awarded 172 million back
in 2020 and the current total cost of projects is 244 and a half million roughly.
These do get adjusted for inflation throughout the years and what looks like a gap is because
there was money from the, oops sorry, from Holmes England through the HIF money but then
the rest comes in through section 106 and developer money and so on and that's what
makes the gap.
And there's a bit more detail of that on the facilitated major allocated housing sites
Lazy you can see the number of homes and the start dates
and elements there because
AGT one and Woodlands for example with a double asterisk are still subject to commercial negotiations
But we are making progress as I've referred to cycleway a done cycle B coming
to get Stone Mandeville relief road is built that wasn't part of this programme but is obviously
in the close infrastructure link and demands we make of HS2 and of course HS2 have money
to pay here as well.
We've opened CELA phase 2 and we'll come on to the details later but we are now able to
begin to use some of this infrastructure and again the next stage of CELA should open this
year so we'll get even more delivery.
If we get to page 44, national planning policy framework implications, obviously this, we
know what we are dealing with now, but the current Labour government have given us an
increased housing target, which is our local plan that's under development that I think
that you've discussed earlier today,
sees us having a requirement for 95 ,000 homes.
So that's just, I won't labour that point now,
given you've talked about it earlier.
And then you can see on the next page, page 45,
some of the CELA related costs between,
and how that's funded between HIF, HS2, developers,
with, like I said, more to come.
And then there's a series of slides
going into each of these in detail. So on my page 46 you'll see sealer phase 1 and 2. Slightly confusingly
to a degree, we've opened the bit that's open is phase 2
even though it came first and that's just because because of the nature of how the project works.
So that's the bit that could that joins the HS2 built Stoke Mandeville relief road
and takes us up to the lower road roundabout relatively short section, but
dual carriaged and then the part I'm referring to that will open this year,
later this year, is phase one. So at the moment when you hit the lower road
roundabout you can either go right into the village or you can turn left and
go past the hospital. You can't currently go straight on. So later this year you
will be able to and then connect all the way up to the Wendover Road and the
image of the crane there and the bridge lift was a significant engineering feat
over Christmas to put that bridge in, ultimately that goes over the existing railway line.
So ultimately, when you do drive along Phase 1, you will go up and over the railway line.
So just to give some context.
On the next page, you'll see the eastern link road.
This will be delivered by developers.
And it unlocks the Woodlands site, but you can see from the timeline listed there this,
while we're very hopeful of progressing some parts of this in the very short term, work will commence on that in due course.
Southwest Link Road, page 48, where you'll see the big red circle says Seeler Phase 2.
that's only there to try and orientate yourself when you're looking at the maps.
So this is where you'll see the roundabout has stubs formed off it, which
is where other roads will connect. So the South West Link Road will connect to
that roundabout in due course. That is subject to HS2 planning, as the slide
says, and most of this is on the land that's been promoted by Gleason,
who submitted their revised application a few years ago.
Passive provision for dual -carriage array has been secured,
but that would be to follow later.
The Southern Link Road, again delivered by developer,
is the part that's on Farhamden Fields.
And obviously that work,
you can see in the challenges and comments.
The Western Junction, Wendover Road,
to reorientate you again as part of C -1 is delivered by the council and again this shows
how all these bits of roads will connect and the first new homes here are due to be developed
now effectively. And then there's a couple of remaining aspirational routes on the northern
Link Road. These are indicative routes so please don't think this is the exact alignment.
But we currently, that is not in the funding envelope,
but this is what obviously the council
and I think our residents would like to see
to connect the full link of Link Roads around Aylesbury.
So that is a very quick counter
through all the various parts.
And of course, you'll have questions
on all the technical detail ones,
Steve and Hannah will be able to handle.
I hope.
Thank you very much.
I've got Councillor Collins, then Councillor Bateman,
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:20:41
then Councillor Suchry.
And we'll carry on from there.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Michael Collins - 2:20:49
Steve, Woodlands, Haddonfields are both in my patch,
causing lots of concern locally.
We are very concerned about the consequences
of the construction of the Woodlands roundabout.
I have a regular meeting monthly meeting with the team lead at Haddon and fields and we know that before
Woodlands can start and I think it's down for 28 29
Before the construction of that starts the road through had no fields has to be complete
Two questions firstly there's still uncertainty about the the actual date of
which I believe is going to take ten months to build,
because we've got two major roads going off.
Secondly, I'm still unsure as to the Woodlands development itself.
I know it's due, I think, for 28, 29 commencement,
but are there any outstanding issues,
because we were trying to find a developer at one time,
and I'm still unsure as to that.
I'm fully okay with what's happening at Hamblen Fields,
but I'm sure there's thoughts happening with Woodlands and the Woodlands roundabout.
Thanks Mike, I think you make your commentary just shows the level of complexity that's involved in these
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:22:16
and how everything is interconnected. I mentioned earlier been a jigsaw puzzle and obviously one thing leads to another
with a multiplicity of different partners and I'm really pleased to know you're definitely having the regular meetings.
I don't know currently if the Woodlands Roundabout is a tenement scheme or longer.
Hannah, can you answer the specifics on that and maybe Steve will talk about the overall project.
So for the Southern Link Road with that major junction on the A41,
Hannah Austin - Service Director for HIF & Major Projects - 2:22:48
that is the road is expected to be opening late 26 early 27.
Is that the junction you're referring to?
I'm doing the approach of the Woodlands, the Woodlands roundabout at the end of the afternoon.
It's the Southern Link Road as a part of the Hamdenfield site.
We've got plans for late 26 to early 27 for opening of that road.
Sorry.
We'll have to take that away on the roundabout specifically for you to come back to the committee.
Because the height of the concentration of the highway is quite tremendous at that point.
It's already a road, the A41 is heavily congested.
We know that the bypass in the rush hour period, both evening and morning,
we have queues that go back 400 or 500 metres.
Cllr Michael Collins - 2:23:47
So we are concerned that there's going to be a real gridlock, if not static traffic at that point.
So the problem we have, the residents of Aston Clinton and Western D 'Urville are very concerned about the consequences of this.
It's rather like HS2, we know what the government say it's costing, but what we don't consider is the consequences to local people.
Loss of employment, can't get to jobs, etc. The real cost of HS2 is far higher than promoted.
So we also have a concern about that round. That roundabout is the nucleus of a major problem as far as I can see.
You will not start Woodlands, as I understand it with the planning and Steve can confirm it, you will not start Woodlands and
hand -filled that road that goes in as complete and it's not till that road is complete that you can actually
start constructing the Woodlands site. Now Woodlands is going to have a thousand houses.
We've got 3 ,000 houses on Hanlon Fields.
So this area is, we can't get information
from the project leader at Hanlon Fields, who
says that they will be starting at Woodlands,
but we can't be specific about when.
If I can be helpful at all, Woodlands' roundabout
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:25:06
is we're having a strategic site visit this Thursday.
And obviously, but I'm not sure when it's exactly
coming to strategic sites planning committee, but presumably soon if we're doing that.
So that gives you the beginning of some kind of time scale.
Yeah, hopefully.
And I think the plan on the back of that, depending not prejudging that, would be to
get started and then it maybe will be a 10 -month.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:25:29
I think it's, you know, familiarly known as the sort of burger -shaped roundabout.
But Steve's probably got more to say.
Can I just pick up on the wider point around the site itself?
Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability - 2:25:42
And obviously the delivery of the roundabout is obviously intrinsically linked to the wider
delivery of the site, albeit the roundabout we anticipate coming forward ahead of the
site.
But as I think the slides talk about and as was mentioned in the original presentation,
we are in the kind of final throes of a negotiation, commercial negotiation with the developer
to develop that site.
Now it is important to point out that the council's interest here is through Buckinghamshire Advantage
Which is a kind of arms -length wholly owned company of the council
And it's through so it's in effect Buckinghamshire Advantage would ultimately enter into a contract
With a with a potential developer for the site and there would be then be
Once that contract is signed that there'd be expectations about the delivery of that site in a timely fashion
clearly in order for us to be able to spend the HIF money by 2028 because
that's one of the conditions on the HIF money itself that's attached to that. So
we'll know more once we've signed that contract and once we
can say more publicly about that contract we'll know more about the
eventual timescales of the whole scheme and also we'll be able to be a bit more
definitive about the timescales of delivery on the roads and the
Cllr Michael Collins - 2:27:14
Thanks, and if I could just, you know, it is worth also pointing out on this particular
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:27:35
development as and when that does come through. Not missing the point on the
bottom of that slide about unlocking the enterprise zone which you know part was
where were people going to work I mean there is the potential advantage of
having enterprise zone employment use that will support our economy in the
long term as well but we always loop back around to infrastructure first.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:28:05
Councillor Bateman. Thank you chair. Thank you very much for the report. I'm looking at
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 2:28:08
page 39 and that might help the members here. So we have two areas in purple
which I would like to talk about which is Woodlands which was referred to as
AGT 3 and still we've got AGT 2. Those are the two I'm particularly interested
in. So the report explicitly states that East Lick Road is not deliverable by
the council due to cost, I can't even say it now, to cost and it's now dependent on
the developer for negotiation.
Considering the fact that the C -LAR, the E -L -R and the S -W -L -R together form the core transport
spine for Elsbury South, have we got a problem and is there a recovery model that can be
looked at?
So my question is what are in particular, whether the overall housing and infrastructure
strategy is still viable if ELR Woodlands does not proceed and that there's no bridge
over the canal.
I mean that is fundamental.
And what is the Council's contingency plan if the ELR is not delivered?
And as mentioned already today that the report, the funding for the HIF funding needs to be
using by March 28, what projects are at risk of missing the deadline and what are the financial
consequences of that slippage? Thank you.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:29:39
Yeah, thank you for the question. I think the early part of my answer is similar to
the complexity piece that I mentioned earlier and the level of managing different parties
and interests and negotiation to bring these things forward.
The thing I'm always cognizant of as well,
and it's always a flaw in this kind of funding model
when there's a cash amount, is inflation kicks in
and things become more and more expensive, which
means the ask on to developers are even bigger.
We have a limited funding envelope,
and that's why Steve and his team
will have to work with the developers
to make sure we get the road built out.
Like you say, even things like crossing the canal
remain important.
But Steve, do you want to give an update on where we are
on those aspects?
And I think part of the question is, what
happens if you run out of time?
Yes, thank you.
Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability - 2:30:41
And I think it's probably worth saying
that there's always a risk with all
of these projects of this nature,
given the complexity of them that issues such as time or
other project issues impact on your ability to draw down the funding.
And that's part of the arrangements we have internally.
We have very robust project management arrangements which look at all of our
risks and we have kind of mitigation plans in place for all of those.
That's not to say that we can sit here today and say every single scheme is definitely
going to deliver on the timescale that we expected to deliver on because by the nature
of these projects there will always be issues that come up that throw you off timescale.
You heard earlier about the bridge lift that took place over the Christmas period.
That was, for example, one of our very significant key risks
in this wider project in that if that lift had not
been able to be completed in the time it was, because of course
it needed to happen whilst the railway line wasn't operational,
the next available window for that to happen
would have been Easter.
So we would have then lost effectively four months
for other projects.
And so thankfully, that wasn't the case.
But there are always those types of what if risks associated with all of these different
projects that we are constantly monitoring to make sure that we are able to deliver.
All I can say at the moment is on the basis of our risk assessment to date, we remain
confident that we are on the track to be able to deliver the sites that are in the programme
on time and be able to draw down the necessary funding to support them.
Clearly, we will keep that always under review.
And if there are other mitigations we need to introduce as a consequence, then we will look to do that as well
But as we sit here today
We remain confident that we can we can draw down the funding in the timescale
and if I may just
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:32:49
The council also remains in correspondence with Holmes England who keep
We equally keep an eye on on our progress because to draw down we have to be in
We have to speak to them to make sure that we can do that. So they also need satisfying that
risk of being managed and delivery is happening as expected.
So just a point of clarification, so none of the south works if we haven't got a bridge
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 2:33:15
over the canal. Are we working really hard to get that construction and that planning
because it's in purple and it's been needed for years?
Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability - 2:33:32
So this is part of the eastern link road effectively and would be delivered as part to, just referring
back to the answer we gave earlier which is in relation to the woodland site, the eastern
link road would be delivered once we concluded the contract negotiations with the developer,
so the developer delivered and they are, you know, the link, the connexion link which
includes the link the bridge over the canal is a condition of the planning
permission so whoever's delivering that developer that's contracted to deliver
it will be contracted to deliver the planning permission on that site which
would include obviously the road infrastructure and the canal.
We've got quite a list of people who want to speak so I've got the order of a
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:34:16
Councillor Satchbury, Councillor Macbeth,
Brough and then Collins.
Thank you for the presentation.
So I hope I explained this properly.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 2:34:29
Did the growth and the housing infrastructure levy
funding that you received, Council received 2020,
that would have been historical Buckinghamshire
County Council, we put in for that, I presume.
And because the unit wasn't in place
And the gap between the funding which you rightfully allude to is the issue.
And it's not...and you also alluded to the inflation problem which we experienced.
You also said...so these were to meet the 10 ,000 houses in that, presumably, growth plan.
And this was to wind it out and hopefully...
everything says these things take longer than they ever will do and they're difficult.
Leaving, will the opportunities, we had a session this morning on this,
will the opportunities of the Buckinghamshire Plan and its deliveries and its infrastructure necessities
give us a chance to try and find some additional funding from that plan to
meet any required funding gap which will grow with inflation and it won't be your
fault it just will grow and make those developers or prospective developers
contribute to completing this site because the idea of this site will all be
done within 20 weeks. It doesn't work like that these projects they go from
to council to council and everybody tries to do their best.
Would there be a possibility of doing that?
And with the same principle to secure money to deliver infrastructure, it could seem reasonable
to look to ask whether we can make a bid for the housing infrastructure levy to either
deliver that project or not, whether it's a one -off thing.
Because the idea that the council is gonna be able
to levy money for the residents for this isn't gonna happen.
It's all gonna have to be funded by development
or with agreement.
And I recognise the difficulties there.
And they're not meant to be planted questions.
I'm looking for understanding whether that's a way
that you could look at it, or you may not be able to.
I take it on advisement.
Thanks, Robin.
So I think there's a couple of bits in there.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:37:00
So the current money, the 172, 74 million
that was originally awarded was a model
where you're applying to Homes England, we have that money.
It was always expected you'd need additional money
from developers.
So that's why I pointed out the difference
between 170 odd and the 244 million
that the current valuation is.
I think the reality is it does put pressure on Steve's team from a council point of view
and on HANA to make sure that infrastructure is funded whilst still having other investment
into other elements into communities and best designed by the developers.
And of course, the inflationary cost puts a bit of pressure on that, but we've seen house prices are also growing.
so the business case will continue to evolve with developers.
To link it to your...
And that was, yeah, originally perceived for the facilitation of 10 ,000 homes.
I think it's also fair to say, while I'm here, we continue to lobby on the point that we
also expected the air as we link to be built out for East West Rail, and the government
have backtracked on that as things currently stand.
And yet that remains both a council ask and an England's economic heartland ask from a
regional point of view because that is vitally important infrastructure.
And we know that as HS2 do their work, there is a least passive provision there for that
to be delivered in the future.
So it's a continued ask I'm making central government is we expected that to help deal
with the 10 ,000 homes we've got and people get to work and making the benefits of East
West Rail, all the more so if the Buckinghamshire Local Plan has a requirement from government
to do even more homes, that will become all the more important.
On the funding, I think there's two bits maybe.
One is there may be future pots of money available to apply again in the way we did before to
HIF through Homes England.
They keep details of what those opportunities are, are not necessarily yet, not currently known,
but we remain in correspondence and dialogue with Homes England to find out what that is.
And of course, if we think some of that is right, we would have to consider making a bid.
The 95 ,000 homes being required by government does not come with a pound of additional infrastructure money at this stage.
They solely take the view it should be funded by developers
and
Therefore the work we have to do with developers
to
Invest in infrastructure as you will have talked about earlier is everything from sewage to schools to
GP surgeries roads and so on and you can see from this roads and roundabouts don't come cheap
But I think the other part of what you're saying maybe was sill is that what you mean by the levee?
So we, and this was brought about budget scrutiny recently,
and you can see it's in the,
both in the cabinet forward plan and the budget numbers
to apply CIL, which is community infrastructure levy,
into the north of the Cathery, Elsbury, Fale area
to do exactly what we're saying,
which is there's 106 and CIL to extract more money
from the development for infrastructure in the area.
So I think it's a yes, yes, and yes sort of thing
to your answers, but there is no single lever we can pull.
We have to keep alive to all the options
to get money into fund infrastructure.
I hope that kind of covered the question.
Thank you, Steve.
You covered that really very well.
I also think that the point you made about the railway
is a very strong point.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 2:40:58
If we're gonna have large development in North Buckinghamshire, we could discuss the politics
of that.
But the realities of it is that that link becomes to the average railway link actually
becomes more important than it ever did because that will make that possible to deliver.
And I think that we've seen changes of mind on other things in data centres and stuff.
So maybe we can return to that because I think it's to deliver that growth
around Dowersbury and to make the conductivity of the road,
the rail link between Cambridge and Oxford, the old Varsity line as was.
This link becomes stronger in its need.
It was an on -off relationship with this railway link throughout the past 10,
12 years and we're on an off period at the moment I hope we can switch it to an
on period again because it will it will make it possible to make that growth
more sustainable and I you know I always feel that people can change their minds.
I'm going to move on to Councillor Morgan because we're running out of time
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:42:16
very fast so thank you for the contribution of that. Councillor Morgan.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:42:22
Thank you, Chair. I've just been trying to make sense of financials and what we've got left to build and the possibility for the future because in the north of Ellsbury it's looking quite dire in terms of connectivity.
and it just fills me with dread because getting from Berryfield to the other side of Elsbury
first thing in the morning, even if I leave at like seven in the morning is an utter nightmare.
And so for us it doesn't look like we're going to get any relief from this in the short term.
So the current HIF funding stands at 172 million and the current total cost of the project
the year's 244 million.
So what is that gap and how is that being addressed?
And is the reliance on developer funding
for the northern and western link road even feasible?
Are we likely to even get enough
in developer contributions?
Because I mean, obviously we haven't had the call
for sites in the local plan.
We don't know where the new sites are gonna go.
But do you have any indication?
I mean, Steve, you talked about the 95 ,000 homes from government in a negative way.
I understand it's negative to this council, but it's not negative to this when we're reliant
on developer contributions to pay for these link roads.
So I was a bit lack of understanding on that part.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:43:56
So I think it's important to note that this funding was never intended to deliver their
northern routes.
That's why they remain aspirational.
And the other part of the financing is developer
and HS2 are involved as well.
So they have to contribute as well.
So as things sit at the moment,
maybe it was my fault for talking about it being a gap,
it's probably to say the total cost is 244.
The contribution from here is 172.
And therefore the other contributions play out
from those other elements as well.
So the bit about have we got the money to deliver the things that are in construction,
then that is there.
The negotiation is ongoing on some of them, and you can see that on the table on page
42.
So, obviously, that is aimed at making sure there is sufficient money to deliver the roads
that are through the developer contributions.
And then, but I think as I said earlier, the two northern ones,
there isn't currently the funding envelope to do it.
So it would need other developer contributions in the future.
Now, the link to 95 ,000 homes, 95 ,000 homes in a county
like Buckinghamshire where Aylesbury is a great example
of overstretched infrastructure already would suggest
that the infrastructure required
in a development area alone would be the challenge to have a sufficiency to go beyond that will
probably need further investment from a homes England type environment or whatever.
But we get to test that, as you say, as the local plan gets developed.
I think the consistency we have around the table today is it's going to need some forward
infrastructure funding at scale to be able to support the rest of the aspirations and
the coming housing numbers that we have.
And therefore, I think it's a very overly optimistic assumption to, by government, to
assume they won't need to be able to do that forward funding.
And that's why when we see Homes England opportunities, we'll have to look at those seriously, because
because otherwise you're just loading onto more and more stretched infrastructure.
Where we are at the minute on your journey from Berryfield to whatever is at least when
we start using more of this, there will be a change in travel patterns that will indirectly,
one hopes, reduce at least some journeys going in the direction they're going.
But of course, if you then add a load more houses, you're replacing that.
So there is a fine balance and that's why traffic modelling is key when we get to local
plan engagement and consultation.
I think I maybe ought to just cheque with Steve if there's anything.
No?
Right, okay.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:46:56
So of that 70 million gap that we're seeing on page 42, how much of that is currently
funded and how much is still left to fund?
So those that are in construction will know what that is and those that are in commercial
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:47:08
and negotiation will continue to be in negotiation
to secure the funding.
So what I can't, if you're looking for me
to give you a number, I can't do that today.
Okay, perhaps that's something you can.
But rest assured, in order to deliver this
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:47:22
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:47:24
and do it by 2028, we need to have drawn down
and we need to have got developers committed
so that we can get these developed.
And just really quickly, on page 42
with the junction improvements, it says closed.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:47:37
So it doesn't say complete, it says closed.
But have they been completed?
Because my recollection is that those junction improvements
were to the A41 by Adams Garage,
or what we used to call Adams Garage.
I can't think what it's called now.
On the run?
I still call it Adams Garage.
So it's King Edward Avenue sort of junction, right?
So it's closed because, so when we're done,
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:48:04
We move on the cycleways and things, go on to junction improvements.
So effectively, the feasibility studies are showing that actually an actual physical reworking
of the junction doesn't alleviate the problem.
So by closing that out, there will be then some minor improvements made to signage and
lining to try and indicate traffic, because you'll know the problem there is, you know,
If you're coming across the junction turning right
or going straight on and people in the wrong lane
is problematic.
So given there is no feasible way within, you know,
probably doing some sort of major reworking
that there isn't the funding for,
no way to physically rearrange that.
We have to turn that from a HIF project
into a traffic management style project
to try and make the junction as is work better.
And that's why it's regarded as closed.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:49:05
Very quick question, then final person is going to be Councillor Moore.
Just a point of clarification, when is something going to happen to that junction?
I thought it was this year. As the Councillor for that ward, I thought it was this year.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:49:21
I don't know, I'll have to come back to you on where they are with those changes, with the team.
Because it is not on this project list anymore, but we can get some information out on that.
If you could, that would be great.
I'm just going to take one more question, which is Councillor Moore.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:49:35
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:49:40
But I would expect it to be in, sorry Chair, this is not a long grass exercise, we need to make improvements to the junction.
So I would expect it to be in the calendar year, but I just don't know when.
Councillor Moore.
Cllr David Moore - 2:49:54
Thank you, Chairman. I was going to originally ask about the $70 million short for the Council
of Stutchbury and Councillor Morgan beat me to it. So there's another issue I'm very passionate
about is developer accountability. Very hot on that. And making sure developers do not
shirk away from their responsibilities. And we saw this with Roundabout, the so -called
road to nowhere in Beckonsville, where we saw a road that was open for, I think it was
over a year. So what mechanisms are we going to ensure these developers fully deliver the
these roads to the right timeline, the right standard without these viability reductions.
And I understand that a number of these projects note viability constraints.
Are we going to publish all these viability assessments to ensure we have full public
scrutiny?
And I appreciate there is sensitive information when you're negotiating, especially on commercial,
and ensuring that we have that scrutiny and that accountability.
Thank you.
Cllr Steven Broadbent - 2:50:54
I'll come to Steve to talk about the approach to viability assessment, but in terms of developer
accountability, I mentioned earlier about having different parties involved.
And sometimes delivery can be affected by even more parties.
So a good example will be where we currently, you know, are on the Wendover Road roundabout
for the next part of SIDA.
So there's a mobile phone mast there that you have to rely on the mobile phone
people to come and move and that was the challenge for HS2 to get them in.
They've had to, so you'll see we're building the roundabout in two halves
and moving that and then the associated ditch and culvert requires lots of
different people so even when we work with the developer, HS2 in this case, to
to a timeline, obviously project risks come along as well.
So there was a constant element of dialogue
and project oversight to keep things on track.
And Steve mentioned the bridge lift earlier.
And that is the same on all these projects.
The advantage in some ways, in my view at least,
on the developer side is if you can agree
when they deliver the infrastructure,
They obviously have other things they're trying to get done, like just to have a rail track to put in.
They'll want the homes building.
And therefore, we can be very clear -sighted on what do we want to be the trigger points within their project plan to get it delivered on time.
And as for your right quality point, anything that comes back, particularly if it's roads related elements, such as the CELAS stuff,
They'll get tested and inspected for quality,
and that's an ongoing process, but at the end.
And of course, things like road safety assessments as well.
So you might notice, because it's the most recent opening
on the sealer phase two part, some of the roundabouts,
you know, there's still some cones and some barriers
around the roundabouts.
And that's because, whilst the little stubs are built
on the roundabout asking people to go off to another kind of stub or road to nowhere
from a road safety point of view is dangerous.
So that's why they're there to prevent people merging and changing lanes halfway around
a roundabout.
When these other roads are connected, that will obviously come away.
So there's a lot of thought given to upfront what are the milestones we need to get it
delivered.
When can we open the infrastructure and checking on the quality of it in due course?
So, and obviously making sure that those projects
remain on track throughout,
even though there are things like mobile phone masks
that can be in the way.
You know that upfront,
but you're just gonna get others to work to your timetable.
In terms of viability assessments,
I don't think it'll be a surprise to anyone,
and it'll be the only comment I make,
that developers will try to
evidence how great their costs are versus what the revenues will be in their business case.
And it's for us to assure ourselves that any costs are genuine.
But Steve, do you want to talk about that?
Steve Bambrick - Corporate Director for Planning, Growth & Sustainability - 2:54:22
Yes, thank you. I think there's probably two mechanisms here as well in relation to some of these projects.
So, particularly when we talk about Woodlands, for example, we are through booking and sure advantage,
we are in commercial negotiations with the developer.
And so there may be contractual provisions that we're able to introduce through that
process that holds a developer to a particular timeline of delivery.
And if there are any kind of viability conversations about that approach, then they would be very
different to what we might regard as more normal negotiations which are on the planning
side.
So ordinarily, whether it's these schemes or other schemes where infrastructure delivery
We would like to ensure that the infrastructure is delivered as soon as possible.
And we can condition that through the planning process.
And obviously, as you allude to, it may be through that process that a developer
then seeks to, through a viability assessment, push back the delivery.
Our normal process that we would follow though is we would expect
a viability assessment to be submitted.
We will always have that independently verified, so
we don't necessarily have the expertise in -house.
we have it independently verified.
And that verification then is something that goes through
the decision making process.
It's not normal, and I couldn't give a guarantee today,
to say that we would always publish those viability
assessments because, of course, there will always be elements
of that which will be commercially confidential.
There may be occasions when the developer is happy for us
to do so, so by agreement we might do so.
or equally there may be occasions where a redacted version is made available or even confidentially made available to, for example, planning committees
as part of the decision making process. So we will always look at all of those different opportunities, but I couldn't give a flat guarantee today that in every case we would be able to publish it.
Thank you.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:56:21
Can I thank Councillor Steve Broadbent as leader of the Council for coming along today
and answering questions and the officer team. This is obviously one of our major infrastructure
project that has been going on for a very long time and it gradually is moving forward
which I think is good as you see certain elements being delivered. It also tells us how difficult
some of the development is going to be as we go to the new local plan and some of the
difficulties we're going to have for getting the infrastructure we need and getting it delivered
which our residents so so much of are calling for and that's the big concern as we go forward
that we don't get that infrastructure right that we are going to have to use every method
that we can to apply for that funding
where it's gonna be available,
because otherwise we're not going to release
some of the areas which I think are gonna need to be
completed to the north of Aylesbury in the future.
So, but I think it's been very useful to go through
and give us a clear update
in answering so many of our questions.
Thank you very much for today.
Thank you.
For committee I'm going to move straight on because we're running a little bit late today.

10 Work Programme

Item 10 is the work programme for March where we've got Libreflex coming in, further updates
on the local plan because that's going to be regular and we're also going to have the
performance monitoring as part of that.
Can I ask for agreement on that?
Agree?
Chairman, is that enough for the next meeting?
It's...
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:58:09
It seems quite light in comparison to others.
It's lighter, but I think that's where we are at this point in time.
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:58:17
Okay?
There may be some other things which sometimes we get later that come on,
and we'll look at those which are in discussion.
Some things have shifted a bit later on from what we would have had there.
So as long as we're okay with that, I do take the point.
Sorry, Councillor Satchry.
I think it understands Susan's point.
You know, the year isn't that many meetings
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 2:58:47
and we have few opportunities for governance and really
extent the chairs point about that's where we are. I do think that we need to
be mindful of the fact that the principles of scrutiny is governance and
scrutiny and maybe in future looking forward see where we can actually you
today demonstrated adequately when you've got a full programme to get through
that programme so that's not confused the two things but maybe the priorities of
stuff if the local plan developing and everything might change. I think one of
the reasons why the local plan should be a big item next time is because we will
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 2:59:40
have the release of the Greenbelt areas we will have and I think we should be
getting much more of a deep dive on to some of those things and the questions
to come about it. So I think it looks light but probably is not as light seeing as if
you think about infrastructure, all of the infrastructure for the future, some of that
is going to be we will really have a good view of where all those sites are going to
be, what's acceptable, what isn't and that is going to raise a whole range of other issues.
So I think once we've seen that, that might also mean we want other people to come along
and talk as well on some of those different areas.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 3:00:22
Just a last cheque, the point was made during the meeting about the social housing delivery
and the difficulty of delivering social housing when the council isn't a player and the government isn't funding social housing as was commented on earlier.
So I really think the point I brought forward some time ago about that report,
maybe we do need to pick out the facets of it, the feasibility of it, because quite frankly the
Council took a decision in 2020 to look at infrastructure and social housing and work housing.
The report was drafted, it drifted through nearly an entire council and I brought it
back but I think that might be some key things we can look at.
In discussions, or we'll be in discussions further in respect to some of that and that
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 3:01:24
may be that we'll get another report that comes in related to that or we may have some
more views in terms of whether we can move forward on the deep dive.
Thank you, thank you.
it look at that and that would be one we would look at that report and whether we should
be moving forward on that. So that is in my mind we haven't completed some discussions
in the background related to that. Thank you Robin, you've literally dropped my memory.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 3:01:57
I did make a request right at the beginning of the year when we had Councillor Wynne and
I do believe I made a request that we try and get all of the housing associations together
so that we could look at an overall or overarching picture of all of the housing associations.
Yeah, how many we've built and how much have they delivered to Target because certainly
Fairhives contribution seemed poor and so we wanted to look at a real collective look.
So maybe that's something we could look out for the next meeting.
We can explore. I think we did ask the question about that,
Cllr Jonathan Waters - 3:02:37
but I'll go back on where we are and try and see if we can get there forward.
So if possible, we'll go through that,
but that definitely should have been part of actually the deep dive
where you would have brought those in to actually talk to them.
And if we're not getting that, then they need to come to the committee.
Okay. So if we can add that on as an area.
And we okay if we go with that
Okay, thank you
The next meeting is on March the 17th. It's back at 10 o 'clock

11 Date of Next Meeting

So we shouldn't have to move it
in the next meeting
So we have very good breakfast somewhere can I thank everybody for contributions today
I think it's very, we had some very worthwhile discussions throughout as usual.
And I will now close the meeting.
Thanks very much.
Thank you.
Mr Steve Bambrick
Corporate Director Planning Growth & Sustainability
View profile Mr Steve Bambrick