Children’s & Education Select Committee - Thursday 29 January 2026, 2:00pm - Buckinghamshire Council Webcasting

Children’s & Education Select Committee
Thursday, 29th January 2026 at 2:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Cllr Wendy Matthews
  2. Khalid Ahmed - Democratic Services Officer
  3. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  2. Cllr Susan Morgan
  3. Cllr Carl Jackson
  4. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  5. Cllr Susan Morgan
  6. Cllr Robin Stuchbury
  7. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Cllr Carl Jackson
  2. Cllr Susan Morgan
  3. Cllr Carl Jackson
  4. Cllr Susan Morgan
  5. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  6. Cllr Susan Morgan
  7. Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion
  8. Cllr Susan Morgan
  9. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  10. Cllr Carl Jackson
  11. Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer
  12. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  13. Cllr Susan Morgan
  14. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  15. Cllr Carl Jackson
  16. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  17. Cllr Susan Morgan
  18. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  19. Cllr Susan Morgan
  20. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  21. Cllr Susan Morgan
  22. Cllr Maru Mormina
  23. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  24. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  25. Cllr Susan Morgan
  26. Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
  27. Cllr Carl Jackson
  28. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  29. Cllr Susan Morgan
  30. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  31. Cllr Carl Jackson
  32. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  33. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  34. Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer
  35. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  36. Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer
  37. Cllr Carl Jackson
  38. Cllr Susan Morgan
  39. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  40. Cllr Susan Morgan
  41. Cllr Alan Sherwell
  42. Cllr Susan Morgan
  43. Cllr Christine Adali
  44. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  45. Cllr Christine Adali
  46. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  47. Cllr Christine Adali
  48. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  49. Cllr Christine Adali
  50. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  51. Cllr Christine Adali
  52. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  53. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  54. Cllr Susan Morgan
  55. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  56. Cllr Susan Morgan
  57. Cllr Maru Mormina
  58. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  59. Cllr Maru Mormina
  60. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  61. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  62. Cllr Susan Morgan
  63. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  64. Cate Duffy - Interim Director of Education
  65. Cllr Susan Morgan
  66. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  67. Cllr Susan Morgan
  68. Cllr Carl Jackson
  69. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  70. Cllr Susan Morgan
  71. Cllr Wendy Matthews
  72. Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer
  73. Cllr Susan Morgan
  74. Cllr Maru Mormina
  75. Cllr Carl Jackson
  76. Cllr Susan Morgan
  77. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  78. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  79. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  80. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Cllr Carl Jackson
  2. Cllr Susan Morgan
  3. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  4. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  5. Cllr Susan Morgan
  6. Cllr Carl Jackson
  7. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  8. Cllr Susan Morgan
  9. Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
  10. Cllr Carl Jackson
  11. Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
  12. Cllr Carl Jackson
  13. Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
  14. Cllr Carl Jackson
  15. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  16. Cllr Susan Morgan
  17. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  18. Cllr Carl Jackson
  19. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  20. Cllr Susan Morgan
  21. Cllr Christine Adali
  22. Cllr Carl Jackson
  23. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  24. Cllr Christine Adali
  25. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  26. Cllr Susan Morgan
  27. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  28. Cllr Carl Jackson
  29. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  30. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  31. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  32. Cllr Susan Morgan
  33. Cllr Wendy Matthews
  34. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  35. Cllr Carl Jackson
  36. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  37. Cllr Susan Morgan
  38. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  39. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  40. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  41. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  42. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  43. Cllr Susan Morgan
  44. Cllr Alan Sherwell
  45. Cllr Carl Jackson
  46. Cllr Susan Morgan
  47. Cllr Alan Sherwell
  48. Cllr Susan Morgan
  49. Cllr Maru Mormina
  50. Cllr Susan Morgan
  51. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  52. Cllr Susan Morgan
  53. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  54. Cllr Susan Morgan
  55. Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services
  56. Cllr Susan Morgan
  57. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  58. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Cllr Susan Morgan
  2. Cllr Carl Jackson
  3. Cllr Susan Morgan
  4. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  5. Cllr Susan Morgan
  6. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  7. Cllr Carl Jackson
  8. Cllr Susan Morgan
  9. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  10. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  11. Cllr Susan Morgan
  12. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  13. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  14. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  15. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  16. Cllr Susan Morgan
  17. Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
  18. Cllr Carl Jackson
  19. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  20. Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
  21. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  22. Cllr Susan Morgan
  23. Cllr Alan Sherwell
  24. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  25. Cllr Susan Morgan
  26. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  27. Cllr Susan Morgan
  28. Cllr Maru Mormina
  29. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  30. Cllr Susan Morgan
  31. Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
  32. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  2. Cllr Susan Morgan
  3. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  4. Cllr Susan Morgan
  5. Cllr Carl Jackson
  6. Cllr Susan Morgan
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  1. Webcast Finished

Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:00:00
Good afternoon everyone and welcome to the Children's Services and Education Select Committee.
To start we've got a few housekeeping rules.
The public and press are able to attend this meeting in person or they can watch the meeting
through the webcast.
In the unlikely event that there is a technical issue with the webcast, the meeting will be
paused until this has been resolved. Agenda papers have been published on the Council's
website in accordance with the usual practise. So onto the agenda, we've got agenda item

1 Apologies for Absence

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 0:00:47
Khalid Ahmed - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:49
number one which is apologies for absence. Yes, Jen, we've got a few apologies and Councillor
Hussain, Clive Jones, Councillor Wallace, and we have Councillor Mayhurd and we've got a
substitute member, Councillor Daley.
I'm not sure who you substituted for, but welcome.
Councillor Christina Daley is substituting
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:01:07
for Councillor Nick Nam -Hussain.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.

2 Declarations of Interest

Item number two, declarations of interest.
Do members have any declarations,
personal precunery interests in relation
to any of the items on today's agenda?
No.
Brilliant.
Agenda item three, the minutes.

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Within the agenda, we have the minutes
of the committee meeting held in November.
Are there any comments on the minute?
Are you therefore agreed that it's
a true and accurate reflection of the last meeting?
Thank you.

4 Public Questions

So item number four, public questions.
We've received one question for this meeting from Councillor Robin Stutchbury.
Councillor Sutsbury can I ask you to come up and ask you a question please?
Just give me a moment to get the paper work out please.
Technology is wonderful, isn't it?
I only wish I was.
There we go. We're getting there.
Firstly, Chair and members, thank you for this opportunity to speak.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:02:48
I did give full disclosure of the nature of the question,
and I hope that you share my views on it.
You will be aware or may not be aware that the previous authority,
Buckinghamshire County Council, undertook a review into prevention
of sexual exploitation and support in young people in Buckinghamshire.
This report is now a historical document,
And there was many, many recommendations within the report.
I worked on that report.
This is historical information relating to it.
I worked on that report with the chair at the time,
which was Val Leveren, who's sadly no longer with us.
And also, I worked with Margaret Ashton and many others.
And some of the members are still here.
At the time, there was a national end issue around SCN, and Buckinghamshire was not immune
from that process.
So the Historical Buckinghamshire County Council, through the select committee at the time,
undertook this report.
What I'm seeking today is an understanding of the importance of the matter and how we
proceed.
Scrutiny is never one day.
Scrutiny, if you've been involved in it,
is a continuous analysis of the facts and broken it down.
The recommendations have been given,
and they are within the report.
One of them, which is the last recommendation,
recommendation 10, which I know doesn't happen,
which is Buckenshire County Council,
now Buckinghamshire Councils, should ensure that Councillors undertake training on supporting
children in sexual exploitation. I have never had any training and that's not the fault or
criticism of anybody because all the people who are here today were not necessarily there then.
And this is about moving forward. All the recommendations are within the report.
My conscience tells me that 10 years on is an appropriate time to review such
agreements and recommendations against past actualities because the one thing
I've realised in my time in public life the risks have changed, the issues are
broader and what was in that report is an historical point in time. So what I'm
speaking today is from the Select Committee because I believe that all members of the
Select Committee approach these things in a scrutiny manner, not a political manner,
that you review the recommendations in the 2015 report against today's actualities and
risks that we encompass with our young people.
And by doing that, we will not be at risk of anyone coming along at a later date saying
we're ignoring these problems, which may not be problems.
And I'm sure many of the issues the officers have had the ability to be able to advise
members that they had dealt with.
As an historical point, at the time, there was a thing called the Bullfinch Report.
There was Operation Gossel, Operation Gimbel, and Operation Alley.
Thames Valley Police were involved in all those operations.
They're all public documents.
You can go and look them up if you want to.
But Gimbel was the big operation about cracking down on the situation that we were experiencing
at the time in Buckinghamshire.
In saying this, I'm not suggesting in any way, and I'm not seeking to suggest in any
or make an accusation that's going.
All I'm seeking today is with the committee and the council
to consider reviewing those recommendations with new eyes,
with new vision, and new people.
Because revisiting it myself, who was involved in the report,
would not be beneficial because you'd be trying
to redo the work you've done.
So my view is that I trust that this will be received
in the manner that it's been asked.
And this serious matter can be pursued against the actualities and the experiences of young people who are vulnerable, boys and girls.
And sometimes adults today. Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:07:25
I really appreciate you bringing such an important topic to this scrutiny committee.
We'd like to congratulate and welcome our new Interim Corporate Director for Children's Services, Errol Albert.
So congratulations to provide Councillor Sertzberg with an answer.
Apologies, Councillor Jackson.
I got it down. It was Errol.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:07:51
It could be either of us, but I'll read it out if you don't mind too much.
Councillor Stocks, we thank you. Thank you for advance notice of the question and some of your points as well.
It might be that Aaron or Sarah want to come in on sort of a training point or whether
there's been a formal review of the report you referred to.
Obviously, things have moved on significantly since 2015, but the issue has not gone away.
As you gave me advance notice of the question, I was obviously able, with the help of the
officers, to pull together some information on the latest on what we're doing here.
As with so many issues when it comes to protecting children,
effective multi -agency work and cross -agency work
to make sure children don't go missing between agencies
is seen as extremely important.
And we're doing that largely through the missing
and exploitation hub in this area.
So that sort of coordinates intelligence and risk mapping
and, when necessary, targeted interventions
across the different agencies.
I thought I'd refer to Ofsted's comment on networks.
it's very easy for us to say what the council's doing,
but less easy to control what Ofsted thinks.
Ofsted's view was that in Buckinghamshire,
children who are at risk of going missing
and at risk of exploitation receive a strong service.
The inspection report, this is Ofsted again,
recognised the progress Buckinghamshire council has made
in delivering a coordinated and responsive
safeguarding system and the effective multi -agency work
which is undertaken to disrupt any exploitation activity.
I say, well, take away the questions you asked
about more local work and the specific questions you asked.
The only other point I make, of course, is, as you all know,
in the background of all this, is a national inquiry.
Now, so I think my predecessor updated members via sort
of a members update back in June last year.
That inquiry is underway.
It's expected, I'm told, to last about three years,
although there might be interim updates.
Possibly, I mean, I don't think we're expecting an interim update
before late this year.
But obviously if there's anything that comes out of that
that we need to act on or learn from, then we will do.
I'm not sure if anyone else wants to come in.
Thank you, Councillor.
Just to address the training issue,
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:10:06
as with previous issues, Chair, across children's services,
we'll be very happy to take forward ideas,
suggestions for where members feel
that additional training would be helpful
or useful to assist in terms of context.
So we'll take that forward and have further conversation.
Thank you, thank you very much.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:10:25
Thank you, Councillor Stechery, for again for coming and asking that question to the committee.
I will speak to the committee and see what the committee feel is appropriate to go forward.
Cllr Robin Stuchbury - 0:10:35
Just lastly, thank you for the response. As I stated, this is a continuing question.
No one point in time is an end of this and I hope you accept it on that basis.
And I know about the national report, but I am not in government. I'm in Buckinghamshire.
If they had me in government life would be much more fun. Thank you
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:10:55
Thank you

5 Chairman's update

So we're now moving on to
Agenda item five. We don't have any other questions from the public
Is the Chairman's update?
I think the only updates that I've got is is that we
We met with CAMS as a committee.
I apologise, this was before Councillor Jackson's time,
before you joined.
But we did have a really, really useful meeting with CAMS.
I think it was really useful for the committee
to understand how the process works
and how people are triaged, but also
to understand the pressures that they're under.
Certainly one of the things that I didn't know
is that now they take children from the age of five upwards.
It used to be 11 upwards, and I think that has placed
a significant amount of pressure on their service.
But they're really interested in continuing to engage
with the committee, and they want us to come up with,
if we can, some suggestions about ways that they can
look to reduce their waiting lists.
But I think it was great to open that dialogue.
There was another update, but I can't remember what it was.
I'll come back to it.
The corporate parenting panel met yesterday evening,
so quite a few of us on the committee today have had an update already
on the placement home strategy for children and young people.
Quite a few of us asked a number of questions
at corporate parenting panel last night.
So maybe a few of us won't have as many questions
on that today, but we'll see going forward.

6 SEND Improvement Programme

Agenda item six, the SEND Improvement Programme.
I will now hand over to invite Councillor Jackson
and Errol Albert and,
no, Kate Duffy?
Possibly.
Okay, to introduce the report.
And I'd like to welcome and congratulate
our new interim CEO that's here, but you're here as the previous corporate director of
SEND. Thank you.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:13:14
Thank you, Chairman. I won't sort of repeat what you've all read in the report. I just
thought I'd give a couple of updates on developments that have happened since you'll have received
this. On the SEND reforms, the last we heard from ministers was that they would be announced
in January, members will be aware that we're quickly running out of January, so we'll see
if that actually comes or is delayed again.
They are really running out of January.
So we will see.
They have, as the report explains, published a set of sort of high -level principles, but
I think that's as far as we've got at the moment.
And then the school places item, paragraphs 2 .5 onwards, there's been a little bit of
There's been some developments there in that after being told that the school place, the
special school funding we've been promised by the Department of Education wouldn't be
coming, or rather the funding for a new school be replaced by a million pounds to expand
existing school places.
The leader, Councillor Broadbent, wrote to all Buckinghamshire MPs to ask if they could
put a good word in for government for us.
I know it was raised on the floor of the House last week, I think, by Greg Smith, the MP
for Mid -Bucky Hampshire.
Council broadband also wrote to the Minister for Children and Families, Josh Callister,
MP, and we've received a response yesterday from him, essentially kind of repeating the
points in the original communication, but saying it is still open to make representations
until the 27th of February.
We will be doing that.
If the committee would like to see a copy of that letter, I'm very happy to share it.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:14:53
I think we would love to see a copy of those letters. That would be really useful, thank you.
I think the point about special needs placement, this is a scrutiny committee and it's not political,
but it has been politicised recently, certainly in the press, where MPs have come forward and said that
there was never a special needs call promise for Buckinghamshire, and I've personally asked the leader
to provide us with that information about us being promised.
I think the other important point is that they're saying that £8 million will provide
us with another 153 places.
I'd certainly like to know your opinion on that because I think we have 600 places
that we need to find between now and 2030.
So how far will that 8 million stretch?
Thank you.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:15:49
Yes, I think you're right.
The issue has become a little bit politicised when we'd rather not.
I mean, it's difficult to reconcile some of the statements
because a recent statement from Labour MPs in Buckinghamshire
was that the school, there was never funding in place for the school.
This was an announcement without funding was essentially the point.
And so therefore there's never there was never a school that's being cancelled
Our contention with that is that the member of Parliament for Wickham has previously kindly written on our behalf
To government to say please press ahead with this school
So, you know, we really need it. Let's let's get on with it
so
It's difficult to reconcile us a letter from the member of parliament for Wickham saying please go ahead with this school with a statement
She's now put her name to saying there never was a school in the first place
But we're going to continue to obviously lobby government because they have they have given us the opportunity to make
Representations to a place which was interesting because I don't think legally they had to but they've chosen to make that
They've chosen to allow us to submit a business case. So we're hoping that means there's might be some room for manoeuvre
We will be asking you are specifically about the funding. So yeah voice I've received on this is that
according to the Department for Education's own figures
expanding existing places to cater for 152,
children who need those type of placement,
would be sort of in a region of 18 million,
rather than eight million.
So this is based on the Department of Education's
own multipliers, I'm looking at officers to start
shaking their head at me if I'm wrong,
rather than it's not sort of me putting a finger in the air.
So even on the basis of the Department of Education's
I don't figure, say, if sold as short by 10 million.
We don't dispute, by the way,
expanding existing places is a perfectly valid option
for creating new places.
We're not sitting here saying,
give us 450 place special schools
to let us meet our 600 target.
Expanding existing places is perfectly valid,
but we've done quite a lot of that expansion already.
There's only so much physical space on sites.
So it's not like you can keep expanding forever.
The 150 -place, 152 -place schools are a really key part of our plans.
The Minister's response, which I'm perfectly happy to share with you and you will see,
refers to not just expanding existing special schools, but also creating new SEND units
in mainstream schools.
Again, fine, good practise, we're doing lots of it.
But there are a number of children and young people who do need to be in a special school,
not in a unit to a mainstream school.
So while we completely understand the point about existing places,
it's not going to allow us to deliver everything we need in terms of the numbers or the type of placements.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:18:43
And it almost seems slightly conflicting information extends schools to have ARPs essentially.
Some of those schools don't have the room to be able to do that.
I think it might be useful if we haven't already, where we start to look at a piece of work
around which schools potentially have the ability to be able to provide an ARP facility.
But of course, we know the white paper for SEND, which is due out by tomorrow, hopefully.
We'll see.
Is looking to actually take away educational healthcare plans in mainstream schools.
And therefore, where's the funding going to come from?
Because, you know, schools' budgets are so stretched.
And one of the first things they look to reduce, sadly, is the LSAs and the TAs.
So it's real contradictory information that we're getting from the government about how this is all going to work.
And I have to laugh because if I didn't I'd cry I think at this point.
But for the children that are suffering it is not okay.
It would just be really good to have some clarity on it and the sooner the better.
Do you have any further updates that you'd like to add to this report?
No, just on from your point, Chair, thank you.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:20:02
because I think that the issue around the,
not just in terms of space within those premises
or potential other options,
but also the staffing capacity
and the specialist training that's needed
in order to provide the most appropriate support
for these very vulnerable children in these schools.
So there's the over and above premises and the sites.
It's also the impacts on the schools
that are doing their very best, particularly mainstream,
to include more children.
So yes, significant shortfall in what was considered and impacts greatly on our future plans.
But we will obviously take forward Chair's suggestions around alternatives.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:20:42
And just to add to that, we are, as a Council, putting together a new programme where we're looking at some of the schools that provide that excellent support,
and looking to pioneer those schools and replicate that as much as we can across the counties, correct?
Sarah, oh thank you.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:21:06
Yes, so as you can imagine, an enormous amount of work going on from lots of different angles in order to try to expand the specialist provision within BUCKS.
And the first place to go to is our existing strong specialist providers.
And I think there's probably conversations being had to a greater or lesser extent with all of them.
And just today I've been involved in some conversations and yesterday with two schools about just that issue
of how, for example, a primary special school might be able to expand to have secondary provision
as well as more places, primary places.
So there's that element.
There's developing send units,
which are, you know, send units or up,
and they meet, they're for different children,
so it's probably easiest to describe it as a continuum.
So there'll be children with educational health
and care plans whose needs are much best met
within a mainstream provision
who require relatively light touch support.
Then there were children for whom an art provision is best,
where they have some time where they're away
from the mainstream part of the school,
and other times where they're able to access
the curriculum more fully.
And then a SEND unit, which is on a mainstream school site,
but where by and large children spend most of their time
within that unit rather than within the mainstream school.
And then a full specialist provision.
And each of those types of revision offer different things to children to meet their needs.
So there's work going on on all those fronts.
But as my colleague has just alluded to, what's really, really important, particularly with ARPs and SEND units,
is it's not just about the physical space, and there is work to look at where that physical space is.
It's about the capacity and skills of the school to be able to deliver that kind of provision,
which is different to the provision they're currently delivering.
So all those things have to be taken into account in expanding the provision, as well as the money, of course.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:23:26
Of course. It's great to hear the Council taking such a proactive approach when in such, in times of such uncertainty.
It's really great to hear about all of that work that's going on.
And like you say, money is really tight, so actually doing all of that work is incredible,
the adversity that we face.
I'm actually going to open up to the committee for questions, and my first question is from
Councillor Cornell.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:23:54
My question is, with the high needs block deficit expected to rise to $211 .6 million
by 2829, what concrete steps are being put in place to prevent significant financial
instability when the statutory override ends in March 2028.
And especially as we're seeing such a huge rise
in special education needs and EHCPs.
Thank you, Councillor Connell.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:24:18
So the government has provided some more clarity,
but also listed a little bit of grey area on this.
So the statutory override ends in March 2028, as you say.
At that point, the government has said they will take
on funding for sort of high needs.
They will take over it from there.
It will be funded centrally.
So the outstanding question for us is what happens
to the deficits that have been built up by March 2028?
Because ministers in public and in have been crystal clear
on March 2028, councils don't need to worry about it.
We're taking it on.
But as you pointed out, by the time we get there,
There will be a significant deficit.
And what's not clear yet is does that become debt?
How is that dealt with?
Does the government write it off?
Probably in our dreams, but we don't know.
So in the meantime, obviously we are providing the support
that we are required to provide to those children
and young people who need it.
We've got the three million pound EHCP recovery plan,
which is going to have a beneficial impact of getting support
to children and young people much more quickly.
It will also of course do nothing to slow down the accumulation of that deficit.
So it's an area of uncertainty at the moment.
What we're really focusing on is trying to make sure we get support to children and young people who at the moment are having to wait too long for HCPs in a lot of cases.
And then we're trying to get some clarity obviously on what happens to the deficit.
Is there by March 28 before in theory should be taken off our hands? I don't know if officers have anything more to add.
Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer - 0:25:59
Yeah, just to add that there have been statements from the government saying that there will
be some support for local authorities with that legacy deficit, but it hasn't gone beyond
that.
So at the moment we don't know what that looks like.
Obviously all councils are lobbying around that.
Section 151 offices are lobbying around that.
We're hoping that there's going to be a statement around that when the white paper comes out,
But at the moment it is a bit of sort of watch and see on that.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:26:29
If I may, Chair, just to add, so it's not that locally we're standing still, as you've heard from Chair.
We have our SEND improvement programme where we're doing our best to ensure that the process locally is streamlined
and that we're taking the right steps as well to support our local children.
So whilst all the national watch and wait in relation to financial announcements,
we're obviously being proactive in taking steps to improve the systems locally.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:26:55
Councillor Cornell did you want to come back with your question about the rise in the number of
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:27:02
EHCPs? I could chat, that'd be great. We've seen this exponential rise not just in Buckinghamshire
but all over the United Kingdom of special educational needs and EHCPs and I wondered
why, what we're going to do about it, how we're going to cope with it, how we're going to fund it.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:27:21
Why is a question I probably spent the first month in this role asking everyone I met.
And everyone had a slightly different answer.
I think generally the consensus is that a large part of it at least is due to previously
unrecognised needs being recognised better now rather than sort of an explosion in the
for children and young people who don't need them.
How are we coping with it?
Well, the demand is extremely challenging.
We have boosted the team that issues the echoes
who issue these EHCPs.
So there's now associate educational psychologists
and because that's the shortage of educational psychologists
is a real barrier to getting these EHCPs issued.
We're seeing a real uptick in the number of EHCPs
now compared to sort of, I think August was probably our low point, some was
usually quiet but I think there were very few HCPs issued that month. It's
now starting to tick up more nicely. We've obviously got the three million
pound EHCP recovery plan where we're getting external help coming in. We're hoping
that is going to transform the number of EHCPs we issue per month. It's
going to really cut down the backlog and it's going to see us getting far more
EHCP is out in the 20 week statutory timeframe,
because at the moment, that figure is sort of
down under 10%, seven percent,
and that's obviously way, way short of where we need to be.
Obviously though, and I think from your question,
you possibly know this anyway,
an EHCP is not issued and then forgotten.
It is a living document.
It needs annual reviews, and having met with the echoes,
That's quite an involved process.
An annual review is not get it out of a filing cabinet and say that looks fine to me.
You know, it is re -engaging with schools, re -engaging with parents, re -engaging with young people.
So when you see this total number of EHCPs on our books as it were, going up,
every single one of those 7 ,500 is an annual review.
Plus obviously the workload of more coming in.
So it's requiring more people.
It's requiring more funding.
And more schools?
Sorry?
More schools?
Well, I mean, obviously we have to think about the impact on schools, because obviously while
children are waiting for an EHCP, that's putting a financial burden on the schools.
That's why the schools are welcome to £3 million plan to cut that backlog and deal
with it quickly.
But obviously we have legal obligations to meet, and if we say we're not going to go
after the EHCP when one should be issued, then you'll find that you end up with legal
challenges and things like that so we have to meet our legal obligations. It's an area
of growing demand and unless the reforms that the chairman referred to earlier do something
to transform it then we will have to keep providing the resources to meet that demand.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:30:19
Thank you, may I add just in terms of context you asked the question why and there is no
one single answer however you would have seen the report recently nationally around other
issues and mental health, one in five children nationally now with probable mental health
issues. We know, and I mentioned this recently, that since Covid and the two lockdowns, we are
still seeing the impact of that. And certainly in my time in children's social care, I've never seen
such a rise in suicide ideation, self -harm, neurodivergence and mental health. So there's
a combination of issues, but Covid is still a factor in relation to this. And we have to
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:30:59
consider what that means for our adult population moving forward as well. Yeah, thank you. It's a
raised about the proactive work that we're doing to engage with schools.
Because actually what I see is a lot of desperate parents out there not knowing
who to turn to, just wanting to help their children.
And we've got a local offer,
Cams have also got an offer called Sharon, which they say 95 % of their
that their parents have used and have said it's really good.
I know we too have a local offer on our website,
and we have really good feedback on that from our parents.
We've also introduced other measures,
but I think the work in mainstream schools
is so, so important.
And I think, I'm hoping, that that work will in turn bring
down some of the need for them to apply for educational health
care plans.
So yeah, we'll have to make contact.
Kate, did you want to come in?
Sure.
I'll just add to that.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:32:03
Yes, so really to your point, the reasons are complex.
And it would take much more than this meeting
to try to unpick them or agree what they are,
because everyone, as you say, has got
their own perspective on it.
But one of the reasons why, one of the things that is undoubted
is that if children are not helped early,
if their needs are not identified early,
then those needs tend to escalate
and children, they become essentially more expensive,
more difficult, more likely to need specialist provision.
And some of that early is the early years.
So the whole early year sector is hugely important
to the trying to address some of the issues within SEND.
And the more children that are in early years education,
the more likely it is that any developmental needs
are going to be identified and support can go to them.
But it isn't just the early years,
because some children's needs only become apparent
as they go into teenage, as they become older
or they go into secondary school where the system is much
more challenging for them to deal with than in primary school.
So same thing.
The early intervention applies right the way through children's lives,
and we've got a lot of work going on in that sphere.
And one of the other pressures in the system is a key element
of both early help for children and empowering teachers
and developing their skills are our educational psychologists
being able to work with children and work with teachers.
But unfortunately, we're in this kind of catch -22
where, as I'm sure you've heard at other meetings,
during statutory assessment process,
the educational psychologist report,
APD as it's called, is the key part of that, has to be done.
And all the EP time is spent writing the APDs
and doing those assessments, which then takes them away
from doing the work that might actually help children
before the needs for an EHCP.
So, you know, trying to get that balance right
within the system is incredibly difficult.
And I suspect we'll see what the reforms show,
but I suspect that that's what the reforms will
be trying to do too, although it's incredibly
going to be very, very challenging.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:34:31
And I think the early support is really important.
In the report, we've got 1 ,500 families
using the autism early support.
And it says 63 .5 % of those don't have a diagnosis.
How will the effectiveness of the early support be measured?
You know, I'm just wondering how it's measurable,
specifically in reducing referrals
for an educational healthcare plan.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:35:03
So partly you'll be measured by reduced referrals
for an education health and care plan.
and, you know, feedback from parents and from children,
young people themselves.
But in terms of the data measure,
that's probably the one, not just the referrals,
but also the level of support that children need.
So if they may still need an EHCP,
but perhaps not at the same level,
they might not need a specialist place, for example.
They might be able to.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:35:33
Next question from Councillor Malmina.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:35:37
Let's just pick up a little bit on what you've all said, which points out to the importance
of understanding children's need, whether it is to intervene earlier to understand the
multifaceted causes of the need for EHCPs.
I recently read an EHCP, had the opportunity to read an EHCP.
And it was that reading that prompts this question.
How confident is the Council that the current plans are reflective of children's needs and
not driven by budgetary constraints?
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:36:34
Well, I can say with confidence,
both from my time here now, which has been quite short,
but previously I was here in 2023, 2024,
and much more involved in the SEND side of things,
that there's never an occasion where a plan
is determined by the budget.
But what is also true is that plans
are not all of good quality.
They're not all as thoughtful as they could be.
And that's a function of the pressure in the system.
But as has been alluded to, the team has been expanded
and we've also got the recent recovery team coming in.
So part of the purpose of the recovery plan
And part of the purpose of expanding the team
is not just about reducing their workload, which is important,
but it then allows the team to do much more quality
work in both preparing the plans and at the review process.
So it would be folly to say that they're all brilliant,
that every child, the plan perfectly
reflects the needs of every child,
that that is continuously updated.
It's realistically that is not the case for all children,
but it is more likely to be the case going forward
than it has been in the past.
So what remedial actions are we putting in place
when an EHCP is not of good quality?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:38:07
So it depends, can I draw your attention to 3 .5
of the report, Councillor, where you talk about
multi -agency quality assurance,
and just to emphasise that point,
that it is a multi -agency function
in terms of completion of those plans.
But you'll see from 3 .5 and I think it's a number of points down where it talks of the
audits that are carried out to assess the quality and from that where it's identified
that one of those plans perhaps doesn't meet the necessary standards, then obviously we
need to take the learning from that and feed that into ensuring that our staff are trained
and fully aware of where maybe a plan falls short in terms of information that's been
provided or completed within that process. So that's the overarching
quality assurance framework and that's to assure you Councillor that we do
regularly look at those those plans and obviously in the event that anything is
raised in terms of a concern in terms of an individual plan then that will be
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:39:09
picked up with the team and addressed accordingly. Thank you.
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:39:15
Okay, the next question is from Councillor Aslan, please.
Thank you, Chair, and thank you for the report. My question is in relation to the inspection
2 .3 in November 2025 with Ofsted and CQC.
The three -week inspection looking at the evidence
across education, which was obviously, which is great.
So my question to you is, following that report
or that inspection, how will the partnership ensure
that the inspection findings are fully integrated
into the updated strategic plan being developed over the next three months.
And I also understand that you've got a wonderful day away in 2026.
And how do you think that will pan out?
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:40:17
If it's anything like the cabinet away days, it'll be in a glamorous setting of the diamond room.
So I don't think anyone's too excited about it from a location point of view anyway.
Obviously, I have to be sort of be careful what I say about the inspection because it's
still embargoed.
So while those who were involved with it had a feedback session giving us some guidance,
obviously, I'm sort of, we're not allowed to say anything, obviously, about the details
of what the findings might be until we get the report, which is expected as this report
says on the 13th of February.
I don't know whether Sarah Arrow can say anything generic about how sort of we respond to recommendations from off -step
But obviously it's all we're not really in a position to comment on the findings of this report
Even though we sort of informally been told what some of them might be
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:41:07
So so prior to the inspection counsellor we set upon and started on our our send improvement journey
Anyway prior to the inspection as was already
referenced. It's fair to say in more generic terms that our self -assessment
broadly met with the observations of CQC and Ofsted. What we don't want to do is
go off in separate directions doing different things. So you're absolutely
right to refer to the partnership on way day where we bring the partners all
together. We consider by which time we hope to consider the outcome of the
report and the recommendations but we'll also align that with our improvement
plan so that we've got one plan to work with with our multi agency partners which will
address the officer recommendations and as I say what we already identified as part of
our self assessment which led to our improvement plan that's well underway.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:41:56
Thank you.
We now have a question from Councillor Townsend.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:42:03
Thank you.
My question is a two part question relating to the EHCP recovery plan.
So, obviously, we've invested three million pounds in this recovery plan.
I'd like to know what success in that plan looks like at three months, six months, and
12 months, and what are the trigger points if the plan doesn't progress or improve quickly
enough.
And then the second part of my question relates to the incredibly woeful out -turn in our quarter -two
which as you know I've asked two questions
about before, Councillor Jackson.
I'd like to know, obviously this data was published
in October 25.
I'd like to know what the updated data is.
We must be nearly getting our quarter three statistics.
So can we report an uptick on that 7 %?
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:43:02
Okay, thank you, right.
So, on your second question, there's not going
to be much difference in the figure,
because we're talking about hitting the statutory
20 -week timeline.
It's going to be very, very similar.
And part of the reason is,
while the number of EHCPs being issued is going
up each month, a lot of these EHCPs being issued
that we request that have already gone,
from a need assessment, already gone beyond the 20 weeks.
So, while it's excellent news that the pace is picking up,
a lot of the work being done is for things that were,
requests have already gone beyond the deadline.
So I think what I'm sort of expecting, probably Q2,
we will start to see probably a real difference
in terms of the impact of the,
sort of the external support we're getting,
which is now up and running.
I think that's being commissioned and they're working.
But it will take some time to see real improvement
in the figures.
I think that's obviously some real difference.
The latest figures are not going to be much different
than what the previous quarter.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:44:09
Yeah, no, I would like to kind of urge caution
because as council has already referenced,
whilst we are doing our best to address the waiting,
they're still coming in, demand is still high.
And whilst the work of the improvement programme is just getting underway around now, but in
early days, we will obviously review at the three, six, nine month mark in terms of that,
but absolutely I think we would, it's safe to say, Q2 is where we hope, expect to see
an impact being made on the data, on the figures, but for now we want to be cautious in relation
to how we're handling the demand that continues to come in and obviously the work that's been
done to address the waiting.
Would it then be sensible to introduce a different metric
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:44:53
into this dashboard to show the percentage that you're
clearing the backlog as opposed to just the 20 week?
I'll pass the cake, but it's a statutory metric.
Sarah, sorry, thank you.
Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer - 0:45:04
Yes, so what we're talking about internally
is actually that the things we will expect to see shifting
first are the number that we're issuing a month.
And you may remember in the cabinet report we said,
once we get the three million up and running,
we need to be at that 175 a month minimum.
So I think that's one of our metrics.
And the other one is,
would expect to see the overall waiting time coming down.
So at the moment, you're seeing the 20 weeks,
but you're not seeing the average wait time.
And that's what we'll start to see coming down.
So those are the two that I think will show
the success of the programme.
20 week indicator for all the reasons we've seen,
we'll have lag.
But if we focus on those two, those I think are the key ones
to show how the programme is actually starting to take effect.
And as has been mentioned, the work has been commissioned,
the team are in, they've been trained,
and they're now working, actually working
on the activity we need them to.
So we'll be looking to see those metrics.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:46:08
And will you be sharing those metrics?
So can you share, for example,
or how many EHCPS we've cleared this month.
Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer - 0:46:13
I've got no objection to that.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:46:17
I'm very happy to share with the committee as much as I can.
I've got some figures actually here for you if you want them now.
On this one, you know, the questions have been asked in good faith
and I want to answer in good faith and then give you the detail I can.
So, you know, in August the EHCPS issue was 18 .18.
By September that was up to 82.
For December, which is the most obviously
recent complete month we have, it was 134.
Bear in mind, that is before the external team
came in and started working.
So that's an impact.
August is a slightly, I give it to you as a transparency,
it obviously comes with the caveat of it's summer holidays.
The schools aren't there to respond to their bit.
The schools actually aren't bound by the usual timeline
to respond to requests and things like that.
But I give it to you with that context, obviously,
because you should have the numbers.
But at 134, now I think that figure is higher
than any number of needs assessment requests
we've had in a month.
So at 134, you are catching up and eating into the backlog.
And I think as we look to push that much, much higher,
sort of towards 200, then we're gonna see
some quick progress.
But obviously, as has been pointed out,
while the number of requests have already gone
past the 20 weeks, that's only gonna take part of the storey.
And there'll be a little bit of lag in those figures.
I'm more than happy to share the two sets of metrics that Sarah mentioned with the committee.
That's fine.
Thank you, Councillor Lapton.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:47:45
That would be really appreciated from the whole committee.
I think it's just really good for us to be able to look at that progress.
One of the questions I had actually on that point was the strategy prioritises the oldest
case first except for safeguarding, transition and high vulnerability cases.
So I just wanted to know how we were going to ensure that the children with an escalating
need but not initially categorised as high risk don't end up kind of staying at the bottom
of the pile.
So I guess the question is do we regularly go through and almost review that backlog?
In short, yes.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:48:25
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:48:27
Thank you very much.
Councillor Sherwell.
Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:48:34
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:48:38
Councillor Sherwell, you said that you would like to ask a question in the pre -meeting about school budgets.
Yes, you effectively asked it.
We've been talking about it and it's a question.
Fine, no problem at all.
Councillor O 'Dahle.
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:48:50
Good afternoon.
Actually, given that we've talked about EHCP backlogs a lot, for reviews and audits of
EHCPs, is it the same teams that work on them?
Because I assume that you need the same professionals assessing a review or an audit of an EHCP
as you do for issuing one.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:49:18
Sorry, you're referring to the multi -HEE audits?
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:49:21
No, an EHCP audit or a review.
Usually with an EHCP you have an annual review.
So I assume is it the same teams that work on the annual reviews as do in the backlog?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:49:33
It's the same teams, yeah.
Not the recovery, the team that are doing the recovery.
No, I...
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:49:39
And they're just on the assessment.
Sorry.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:49:43
But the team that...
Our normal team within the council do both the plan writing and assessments
and also the annual reviews.
Do the review.
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:49:55
So given the backlog on issuing EHCPs,
what is the situation with the reviews and the audits?
Is there the same pressure on the system?
Are we on track?
Are we behind?
Or how does the situation look?
Because if there's a backlog at some point
for the same teams doing the same work,
it must have a knock -on effect.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:50:18
Yes, it does.
So there is pressure on the annual reviews, but it's not
as far behind with annual reviews as with the assessments.
and this work will, all of it's releasing capacity
in the team to do a better job on annual reviews
and on the assessments of cases that are coming in.
So I haven't got the figures to hand for you,
but they're better than the figures for 20 weeks.
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:50:52
So they're better than 20 weeks, but we're still behind.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:50:56
So yeah, I'm sorry, I don't know off the top of my head
exactly what the figures are.
So they're not where we want them to be,
but they're not such a concern.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:51:04
Sorry, just to reassure that you're absolutely right,
because there's pressure across the whole of the system.
And on the basis of the, in answer to your questions
around the reviews, yes, there is naturally pressure there,
in which case the recovery programme has also
included two additional annual reviewers
to pick up some of the work and the workload
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:51:28
there as well to assist in that pressure. Thank you very much.
Councillor Cunha.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:51:32
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:51:38
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:51:44
I'm sure you had your hand up a minute ago. Councillor Mormino. Yeah, we spent a
time talking about the outrun and being quite shocked at 7 % of children meeting the 20 -week
statutory period.
And I recognise the pressures and I recognise the progress as you just outlined.
The reality for these children though is that they're waiting a long time for suitable provision.
The EHCP basically puts in writing and creates a legal duty in schools to provide suitable education.
But those needs are there right from the beginning.
So, what are we doing as a council to ensure that while children are waiting for the EHCP,
they are not missing education, they are still being supported?
And equally, sorry, if I can just add another question because probably it's the same answer
to both questions is how are we supporting those
who are not eligible for EHCPs?
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:53:10
Okay, so within schools, schools get funding
within their budget, within their main budget.
It's called the notional SCN funding.
So that's outside of any funding that comes from EHCPs.
And in order for a child to receive an EHCP,
the school has to show evidence of how that notion,
how they've spent their existing funding
to try and support the child.
So there is funding in schools anyway
to support children with additional needs.
Children also within school can be identified as SEN support.
So that means that they have SEN needs, but not at the level
that requires a EHCP.
So those children will be supported within school,
within their existing budgets.
The inbox, there is some funding set aside
so that we can support children in the process of assessment
so that funding can get into schools in advance
of the EHCP being issued.
There isn't, it's not enough to meet all of that need.
And partly, the problem is that the high needs block
you know, we're constrained about how that funding can be spent.
So we can't, for example, decide we're going to give half of it to mainstream schools so
they can use that to support children without having to go through the statutory assessment
process.
And that's one of the problems within the system, that the system has led many people
to believe the only way that their child, whether they're a teacher or they're a parent,
The only way their child can get help is by having a statutory assessment, and that's
one of the other reasons why the numbers have increased.
So it's one of the systemic things that I'm guessing the reforms will try to address so
that funding is not dependent on an EHCP and support can be provided without, where appropriate
for children, without the need of an EHCP.
So in answer to your question, there is support for children
while they're waiting and before they've even requested assessment.
Is it enough? No.
It's a short answer.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:55:28
In many cases, these children cannot be supported within mainstream school.
So it's fine to say that, yes, schools have this additional funding,
but in many cases, a child needs an EHCP
because they need to access additional specialist provision
and the school cannot provide that provision, the mainstream school.
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:55:48
So just to come back, the funding that we provide to schools is mainly for those children
where we think their placement is going to be a specialist one.
So those are the children where the funding is concentrated.
What they can't do, as you rightly point out, is access that specialist provision until
the Education, Health and Care Plan is finalised.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:56:11
Can I just say in addition as part of the wider for those children that perhaps don't
meet that threshold, as part of the SEND work that I referred to earlier, we've got to look
at there is something about ensuring that there is awareness around what else is available
in the wider community, particularly universal provision that might provide at least some
level of support that's accessible outside of schools and the EACP. Part of our work
is understanding what is out there and sharing that with the wider community. So for instance,
as an example, as you know with the work being undertaken currently with our family hubs
across the county, we want to ensure that there is provision there to assist parents
and carers of children with SEND to undertake drop -ins and meet with other parents who are
under similar pressures within their households
to gain some support.
So we're looking at the whole piece as well
in terms of offering alternatives to assessment EACP.
Not saying that will resolve everything,
but I just wanted to address that point of
what else can we do in the meantime for those children
who are waiting along with their parents and carers
who are doing everything to provide the right support
for their children.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:57:28
Councillor Townsend.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:57:30
Thank you.
Just picking up on Councillor Mormina's point,
I assume part of the additional support
you're talking about there
is the exceptional support funding.
I have had a bit of experience with that
with one of the schools in my ward.
And I've, I mean, to give you an example,
they have a child who has been put forward for this funding.
The child is nonverbal.
English isn't even their first language spoken at home.
They can't toilet independently.
They've got allergies and intolerances.
They need monitoring while eating.
They need one -to -ones constantly.
And that's just a few of the challenges this child faces.
They did not meet the criteria for exceptional support funding.
They don't have any HCP.
And they are one of many children within that school who has very high needs.
What can we do to help schools like this?
I appreciate this is an exceptional circumstance,
but I wanted to give a bit of a real life illustration.
Yeah, I mean, I perfectly recognise
Cate Duffy - Service Director for Education and Inclusion - 0:58:35
that real life illustration.
And as you say, it will be one of many.
And I think the exceptional support funding,
just yesterday, I was having a conversation with the team
about how we try to kind of loosen the,
not loosen the purse strings,
We want that money to get up to school, but how you get the balance between making sure
we've got the evidence that schools have used their notional funding, etc., and that that
money is being appropriately allocated and also not making it so difficult that the money
doesn't end up getting to children like the one that you've just described.
So I think we just have to accept that, yes, you're right, it is too tricky at the minute,
and we have to look, as I say, yesterday we had a conversation and we'll continue those
conversations about how we try to make that easier for schools and families to access.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 0:59:31
Thank you.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:59:34
That wasn't actually going to be my question, but can I ask another?
Just to pick up on that.
I noted in the
report that you referred to the legal spend on Ombudsman awards, which was information
I think I asked for at the last Select Committee meeting, so I'm grateful for that information.
I would also like to know how much we're spending on fighting tribunals.
So what is our legal spend on fighting tribunals, for example, where an EHCP has been requested but not awarded?
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:00:09
And I appreciate you may not have that information to hand now, so if it's something you want to provide later in writing, we'd be more than happy with that.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:00:19
I think we have the information, but Errol is going to find it.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:00:21
I requested last time I think and I've got it somewhere in the email trail but as soon as I find it I'll leave.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:00:28
Thank you. Do we have any other questions from the TR Council? Apologies.
Cllr Wendy Matthews - 1:00:34
Thank you. Yes, in your report you say that the SEND improvement programme was set up almost a year ago.
So can you tell me how far have you progressed with meeting the KPIs for each of your work streams
And when do you intend to be able to deliver them all?
Thank you.
Sarah Ashmead - Interim Chief Executive Officer - 1:01:01
Yeah, so we've given you some examples in the report of the sorts of things that they're
achieving.
I think we've always said that this is not a quick fix.
This is a long -term change programme.
They haven't all got KPIs established, so it's difficult to give you that precise answer,
but I would say we're definitely seeing some of the sort of traction we need.
So, for example, around improving our data, that was a really big impetus for us at the
start of the process, and we're feeling much more confident about that now.
One of the work streams was to make the business case around investment in EHCPs, and as you've
seen, that's progressed now.
There's a workstream around the cultural challenges facing
the team.
Obviously, the team are under huge amounts of stress,
and that impacts on recruitment, retention, people's well -being.
We're making good progress on that,
and we'll be able to see the success of that
in our next staff engagement survey.
So I suppose they're at different places,
but we're feeling that momentum, definitely feeling that the contributions from across the Council as well as partners have been sustained during that time.
So we're feeling positive. Hopefully once you see the outcome of the inspection, the inspection report reflects some of the feedback around the progress we're making.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:02:36
Thank you.
Any other questions from the committee?
Councillor Mormino.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 1:02:41
I promise this is the last one for me on EHCPs.
But picking up on the live example of what Councillor Townsend provided, where children
maybe with additional language needs might not be eligible for either EHCP or extra SCND
support.
I haven't seen anything in the PAC regarding equality assessments, and I wonder if you
can provide some indication of whether there are any identifiable patterns with regards
to equality assessment on refusals or ineligibility and if you don't have the answer now if you
can provide that.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:03:36
Yeah I think if we can provide that outside of this meeting that would be great. We can
we can provide you something. Yeah we don't have it at hand.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:03:42
Thank you Councillor Jackson. Before we move on to the next item, sorry were you just talking
about providing the one that you were looking for?
I have some.
I've only had the New York City.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:04:01
I wanted to know how much we were spending
on fighting tribunal appeals.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:04:10
I've got the number of appeals.
How many appeals were there?
Well, during the time we received
And how many did we win? Sorry, can we put the microphone on please?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:04:26
Thank you. The breakdown so 24 % related to the local authorities decision not to
conduct an ECNA, 61 % related to challenges over placement decision and
15 % over general contents of EACP. And how many were we successful?
I'll have to come back to you on that one.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:04:50
Thank you, appreciate you providing that as such short notice.
If there's no more questions from the committee on the SEND Improvement Programme, I will...
Obviously this is an ongoing programme as Councillor Jackson said, and it will be coming back to this committee again for an update.

7 My Home, My Future: Placement and Homes Strategy for Children & Young People 2026-2030

So we move on to agenda item seven, which is my home, my future, the placement and home strategy for children and young people, 2026 to 2030.
And I'd like to invite Councillor Jackson to introduce this report and I will also ask Errol Albert and Emma Cavanagh, who's our Service Director for Provider Services, to follow up.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:05:35
Thank you Chairman.
This report has been to cabinet and is already in the public domain so I won't bore you with
a summary of it.
Obviously this is an important strategy over the next four years about how we find the
right environment, the right living environments for the children we look after.
As I think I said at the first committee meeting I came to in this role,
it's about in the broad sense of things looking at rebalancing our placements.
So away from out of county as much as possible, where appropriate,
away from residential, and looking at placing more children in foster care
environments, always looking to try and keep children and
young people closer to their communities, closer to home.
and in the most supportive and appropriate environment for them.
I'm very happy to take questions on anything members want to ask about.
Thank you, Councillor Jackson.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:06:32
Did either of you want to follow up?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:06:40
I'm going to pass to our Service Director for Provider Services, who's put loads of work into this.
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:06:43
Yes, really good news storey, so I'm going to pass to Emma Kaplan. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Aaron.
Not really much to add except that it is a really exciting piece of work.
is a huge area of focus for us in children in terms of what we can deliver to address
a sufficiency which can be quite a dry subject.
But actually it is in essence about building capacity, building quality in those services
and preventative interventions to make sure that most importantly our children are in
the right place at the right time and to improve the outcomes for our children and keep them
as local as possible.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:07:25
I appreciate that.
I think we're all excited.
Emma, you've got cross -party support, I think, on this.
I certainly haven't heard any complaints about this programme
from anyone, which in itself is quite a win.
So well done.
Thank you.
Just on the point Councillor Jackson was talking about,
as of September 2025, there were 73 children
that were placed 20 miles away or 20 plus miles away.
Most of them were actually aged under 13.
I just wondered what's the kind of realistic trajectory
for reducing those placements?
And when does the council expect to meet the sort of KPIs,
really, on that?
I know it's a really complex and difficult question,
but it would be really good, I think,
if we had some kind of plan.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:08:22
I mean, on the, obviously we, for the reason I said in my introduction, we're obviously
looking to try and get as many looked after children in county as possible, whether that's
in residential or ideally in foster care if it's appropriate.
I mean, part of the plan to deal with that is the plan to open more of our own in -house
children's homes.
And that, there's good progress on that.
There are obviously some external factors that aren't entirely without control.
I'm chairman you were at the budget scrutiny session and obviously those discussion there about
Things like the time being taken by offset to to register homes, which is not in our control yet
We can't use them until we have that registration
however
on the upside of the 10 homes that are part of the plan to increase our capacity eight of the
buildings have already purchased in opposition possession and
Therefore we have we sort of have a degree of control over their development. That's within our power
In terms of timelines to hit certain KPIs,
Emma, I might look at you.
But I mean, clearly the increasing
of having house capacity is a big part of it.
Edge of care work is, as you call it,
early intervention to try and stop children
and young people coming to care if they don't have to.
It's a big focus.
You'll have noticed as well, that's a big government focus.
So that's something where the government's expecting councils
to do more work.
There's a lot of emphasis on that.
The Secretary of State for Education was talking about it,
I think last week in the house saying it's about getting involved early to make sure these situations don't escalate.
I'll look to Emma on the specific timelines on hitting KPIs.
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:09:55
Thank you. So I think I'll start, I like to start with good news.
So I'll start with some more good news.
So as you've already mentioned, Councillor Jackson, our biggest sort of risk factor in terms of challenge,
in certain challenge with the residential homes programme
is the registration of the homes,
which this is not an excuse,
but it is largely out of our control
because we are at the mercy of Ofsted.
We certainly meet the registered requirements to register,
but then we can be waiting six to nine months
for a registration for each home.
The good news part of that is I can share with you
that our solo provision coach house
has just this week received the nod from Ofsted that it can open and so that is
another property that will be opening what that is open as of today and
equally our property beaches which has four bedrooms is set to and we've had
this notified by Ofsted to be registered for the visit first week of March so
obviously we've as you'll see within the strategy there are a number of beds 32
beds in total with the homes that we intend to bring online. We have had to change the phasing
of that again as is cited in the strategy because of challenges in recruiting registered managers
and also the challenges that I've just mentioned with Ofsted. In terms of the kind of projection
for the KPIs, as again you'll see within the strategy, we are saying that it is you know 85 %
external market of placements currently with the goal being that 40 % use of external by
the end of the timeline within the strategy.
And what I can tell you in terms of current data is we currently have 46 % of children
are looked after children outside of that 20 mile boundary and radius that we look to
bring children within.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:11:58
That's another good news storey.
I mean, that's come down quite considerably from what it was.
So I have some questions.
The first question I've got is from Councillor Aslan, please.
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 1:12:13
Thank you, Chair.
Can I just say thank you for the report,
and also thank you for all that you're doing.
It's really, really encouraging.
So I think my question relates to section 4, probably 4 .2.
And to what extent does the council believe its planned
growth in the in -house residential
and fostering provision will enable it
to meet sufficiency duties considering rising need
and current reliance on external providers?
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:12:47
We have pretty ambitious targets when it comes
to finding new foster care.
I should be clear, obviously, when we're talking
about 20 new foster carers, we mean net, not just 20 new,
because obviously that's, we have to deliver an increase
in the total number.
That was considered a stretch target for last year.
I think so far we are on 26 new foster carers, which is,
you know, a really significant achievement,
because 20 was not an easy target hit.
We didn't consider it easy to hit when we set it.
It's a huge part of our plans in terms of providing best for our children and also financial plans to keep the service sustainable rests on meeting those targets.
I remember when I first saw the projected savings in this area and I was looking at savings in millions of pounds and I was asking the officers, sort of, how many dozens of extra, you know, hundreds of extra foster care that you need to find to hit those targets.
Of course, when you compare the cost of foster care to the council to the cost of
external residential, you find 20 net new foster carers and
you are saving millions of pounds.
I think that is a difference when external residential care is sort of
charging nightly prices that would make the writs blush at times,
depending on the complexity of the case.
The reality though is that we have seen an uptick in the number of looked after
children.
Foster care, even with our, even hitting our targets,
is not going to enable us to remove the use
of external provision in the near future.
So it is still going to be there,
something we have to use.
Obviously, we want to mitigate that with more
of our in -house provision too.
It's still going to be, it's going to be there.
So it's a question of really trying to reduce the number
of placements we require in external residential.
And also doing what we can to be clever on cost as well
in terms of commissioning because if you're not careful,
you find yourself in a situation where some
of the external providers,
the private providers are basically naming whatever price
they fancy and treating it as a licence to print money.
And we need to try and reduce our dependency
on that sort of placement.
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 1:14:57
Can I just, and the bit on the reliance
of the external providers, could you just explain
that a little bit?
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:15:04
Yes, again, we need to bring that down
because for two main reasons.
There's always two factors in this.
Best outcomes for unlooked after children
and the viability, financial viability of the service.
Sometimes you need an external placement.
Sometimes you have a child or young person
who has such complex needs, such specialist needs,
that there might only be a handful of places
in the region or the country that can actually provide for them.
In that case, you sort of have to hold your hands up
and say we're not going to be able to provide that in house
or it's beyond what a foster carer could reasonably be expected to support.
So it's always going to be there in terms of demand for placements
and in terms of those specialist placements required.
But where we have children and young people who could be in foster care
or could easily be in our in -house residential instead,
we obviously want to reduce the extent to which we're using external providers.
Often as well, those placements are outside of county
and we want to keep children and young people close to their communities,
their families where appropriate,
their schools, their friends.
So it's a big focus, the whole strategy really
is bringing that reliance down.
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 1:16:13
I understand about external providers
and I, whilst we rely on them,
my concerns are the accountability.
There's a lot of things that we do actually,
obviously we need to reach out
and get people from outside.
It's the accountability that concerns me.
And I wonder what you feel, or you will ensure
that you will make them accountable
for the work that they do.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:16:38
I might, in terms of sort of how we sort of cheque standards,
I might look to Emma on that one.
Because I think Emma will have more detail
than I can give you probably.
Thank you.
Yes, of course.
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:16:46
So I absolutely hear what you're saying.
And what I can assure you of is what we've recognised,
and I hope this strategy articulates, is that,
forgive the phrase, but we don't want to put all of our eggs into one basket.
So we absolutely recognise, as Chair said, that we have a high number of children in external placements.
Some of them are quite young, and some of that has been because at the time we needed a placement,
that was our only option, and indeed that is where the whole fostering and residential transformation was born,
from the fact that we were placing far too many children in external high cost placements,
some of which were unregulated at the time, and we didn't have the level of control over
the quality or indeed the distance in terms of where those placements were.
I think we've moved streets ahead since then in terms of the work that we've done and our
intended flight path for this.
However, what we've also recognised, and as Councillor Jackson has said, we are never
going to be in a position where every single one of our children is placed either with
a foster carer, internal foster carer, or with an internal residential home. So we therefore
need to make great strides to commission smarter in terms of there are lots of local external
provisions where we need to build those relationships because whilst they may not be our provision,
we still have a, you know, we want to place our children locally if we can't place them
internally and equally we want to support local providers to provide the highest level
and quality of care for the children that are placed in their care, whether they are
children or children from other local authority areas because ultimately if the standard of
care being provided for those children isn't of a good enough quality then it becomes our
responsibility because they're in our county so to speak.
So there is other work being done around commissioning SMART, building relationships with local
provisions that aren't internal.
Looking at how we can block commission, those provisions,
so that should we, when we do use them,
we have the greatest control possible,
albeit they're not our homes, to look
at the types of children placed, the children placed
alongside the other children, because they would all
be our children.
And the level of training and support,
and that holistic view, working with partners, police, health,
et cetera, to make sure that everybody is fully invested
in the children that are in those placements.
So it isn't just about what we can do internally,
although it is a big part of our strategy.
It's also about building those relationships
and exploring what we can do with external providers
to ensure the best outcomes for our children.
And I'm very confident by that.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:19:41
And just on that point, I think it's, you know,
One of the things that we've looked to do
is that kind of specialist therapeutic fostering.
I think that's going to be really key going forward
to kind of reduce those real complex needs in terms
of those out of county placements.
But I mean, I don't know if the plan with the new homes
that we're building is also to train up those staff to deal
with more complex cases.
And if that is the case with both fostering
and our own in -house care, how long do we anticipate
that might take in terms of training
and getting that up and running?
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:20:21
Thank you, that's a great question.
So you're absolutely correct in terms
of that being the longer -term vision.
So certainly the specialist placement offer
that we launched this year
with our fostering offer is very much focusing on children
who have more complex needs, children who have been placed
in residential care, but certainly our view is that residential care is right in a time
and a place of a child's life, but not for the entirety of their minority.
And that wherever possible, we're looking to ensure that children are placed in loving,
stable family homes.
So we do need a plan and an approach to how we move children from, whilst the homes that
we use, our own homes, are very loving and family -centric, they aren't a family home.
So there is an adjustment for a child to make.
And some of the ways we've identified
that is by aligning our therapeutic parenting approach,
certainly in -house, around all of our residential homes
and all of our foster carers having therapeutic training,
therapeutic parenting training, PACE training.
And what that means is that whether a child's
in a residential home or a foster placement,
when that transition occurs, they're
being therapeutically parented in exactly the same way,
so that the support and the care and the nurture
that they receive is consistent.
And within the specialist placement offer,
there is very much a model which is that our foster carers
that are identified to offer the specialist placement
will, for example, go into our homes
and work alongside the staff to get to know the child,
to undertake activities and tasks with them over a very, very long transition period,
which increases as time goes on, to really enable that transition, but also for that
foster carer to be up -skilled by the residential worker who already has the relationship and
the knowledge of that child's needs.
So there is that very kind of, I'd say streamlined, but long -term plan about the transition for
that specialist placement to go from a residential home
into a foster home.
It would be remiss of me not to point out, however,
that that is if we're using entirely internal provision.
And that will be more challenging
when we have children placed
in external residential provisions.
And we're looking to enable that transition
into a foster placement.
That's not to say it can't happen.
But it's, you know, it's not
without its challenges in that regard.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:22:59
I think if you don't mind, Sharon, you were touching on possibly the specialist foster carers we were looking at training as well.
Yeah, so I do, if you'd asked me about it scrutiny, I think I would still have remembered the figure,
whereas now it's slipped my mind.
But I know we do have a target for sort of how many specialist foster carers we're looking to train.
Is it five? Over what period was it?
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:23:20
So it was five for this current year.
However, we've been late in being able to launch it because of the training offer that needs to go with the specialist carer
So we have a tradition to finish here because we've launched it later in the year and it'll be five for the next full financial year
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:23:40
No, I appreciate that was a really detailed response, thank you appreciate that next question is from counsellor at Ali, please
Cllr Christine Adali - 1:23:47
Please.
Mine is financial.
The strategy forecasts 367 % return on investment over 10 years and a 7 million annual savings
by 2029 by bringing the children's homes in -house and also the foster carers, I assume.
What are the main financial risks that could impact achieving these outcomes and how are
these being mitigated on a financial and also on a personal level?
I mean, what's the result for the children if it doesn't happen?
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:24:28
Okay, so I would say probably that the biggest risk is the AUSTED registration time when
it comes to delivering the in -house residential.
Now, I mean, we're seeing a bit of fluctuation in that,
so Emma and I were talking beforehand
about a couple of sort of registrations
that have happened or that we're expecting.
And, you know, we're sort of between
six and nine months, it seems.
And six months is what we're working on
as a time from that request to us to register
to getting our registration.
If it starts drifting nearer nine months,
sort of on a regular basis,
that will be, that's a financial risk for us.
That starts to mess with our calculations,
no doubt about it.
I've got a, I'm gonna be writing to,
the letter's already finalised, it's gonna go shortly,
to the relevant minister to sort of draw his attention
to this and say, look, you know,
this is gonna create difficulties
if of course they can't get on top of registration.
Six months is fine, we're budgeting for six months,
we don't need it to be six weeks,
but if it starts to go nine,
We have to fund the team that is going to staff that,
each of these residential homes, they've got to be in place
from the day we ask for registration to the day that they can,
the registration is achieved.
So if you start increasing our time to weigh by 50 %
or the team sat there, you know, employed, costing us money,
you're looking at hundreds of thousands of pounds that we can't get back.
So that, I would say that is the biggest financial risk.
Obviously, on the personal side, the outcomes for children will then, the longer it takes
us to scale up our internal provision, then the more children are spending longer periods
of time in external provision, possibly further away from the county, and we don't consider
that the best outcome for them.
I don't know, Emma, if you want to add anything, but I...
Thank you.
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:26:21
I think the other risk, which I mentioned earlier, is around the recruitment of registered
Managers to be able to go forward with that registration in terms of some of the mitigations that you've you've asked about
Absolutely is about we have a fantastic relationship with our inspector for the area
So we do have a little bit of a hotline. I hope she's not watching
Around you know letting her know we have children matched to this home
Actually, we've got a school identified and respectfully you are the blocker
So how soon can you come out and and we've had a favourable response to that
Although there is only so much they can do because she's one person and she has X amount of registrations to attend to and
the other mitigations that we have put in place there around the finances is
We've reduced the number of staff that we do recruit to a home to the absolute minimum
So we have to have a minimum amount of staff recruited the registered manager being the key the key position
to be able to proceed with a registration.
So we have reduced that quite significantly.
And we are actually, you know,
forecasting quite a significant under spend
on our staffing budgets for our homes
because we've reduced the staffing
and they're staying not operational for longer
whilst we're waiting for those registrations.
Another mitigation in terms of that registered manager
is we have just successfully had,
with the coach house registration,
our first dual registration for one manager.
So without going into too much
of the Ofsted regulations detail,
Ofsted will permit a registered manager
to be registered to more than one home,
providing that they are within X amount distance
or time -wise of each other,
and provided that there's no more than six beds
across those two homes,
and obviously, and most importantly in terms of outcomes,
provided that we are confident
and the manager is confident that they can successfully manage both homes,
you know, robustly and to meet children's needs.
So we have just with the coach house,
the registered manager for the coach house is also the registered manager
for one of our other established homes.
She's an experienced manager and Ofsted could have refused based on,
they didn't think it was appropriate,
but they were very happy to recommend or to approve her to be registered for both homes.
So that is an approach we are looking at with some
of our existing managers around not only would
that provide sort of career progression for our staff,
which is also very important, but it would address some
of the challenges with, you know, and mitigate some
of the risks around not being able
to recruit a registered manager to then proceed
with registering a home.
Now, a very silly little follow -on question.
Cllr Christine Adali - 1:29:13
With external providers, do we have notice periods
to move children out of their homes?
How much advance, because I assume they need to plan as well,
so how much advanced visibility do we need to give them,
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:29:27
which might cause additional difficulties for you?
Generally speaking, it is 28 days, a notice period,
and we always, with best practise,
aim to plan to move our children.
Obviously sometimes there are unexpected situations
which result in emergency moves of children.
When they happen, it's quite often the provider
that's giving notice, and therefore, you know,
they don't then expect you to stick to the agreed notice period.
But we always strive for best outcomes for our children.
A planned transition is the best transition for a child,
and that's a 28 -day notice period.
And sometimes we will give not a longer notice period,
but we'll say, actually, we're going to move,
we plan to move the child, but not for six weeks,
because that's how long the child needs. So automatically that notice period kicks in at the 28 days.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:30:22
Thank you very much. Thank you. I was going to suggest that Councillor Jackson write to
an invoice for 1 .29 million to go with a letter to the Minister and see what reaction you get.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:30:37
Next question from Councillor Cornell please. Thank you Chair. Mine is with the identified
gaps in supportive accommodation and housing access
for 16 to 18 -year -olds and care leavers.
How will the council improve transition pathways
and secure suitable local housing?
And what aftercare do we give these children
that are moving on?
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:31:00
Well, there is a, one of the points in this strategy
you've seen is a plan to work with housing.
That is something which is planned more than something
that's happened yet.
but we want to identify more housing which we can provide to children and young people leaving care.
There's going to be a lot more housing in this county over the next few years.
It seems only reasonable that we can identify some of it for children and young people who we still have a duty for,
obviously, past their 18th birthday.
On the detail, Emma, I don't know if you wanted to pick up any more of those points.
Thank you.
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:31:39
So within the strategy there is, as you would have seen, mention of our plans for supported
accommodation.
So we have to give you sort of more specific information.
We have three properties that are currently in various stages of refurbishment that will
become supported accommodation for 16 plus looked after children and care experienced
young people.
Three is nowhere near enough.
I'm not going to make out it is, but it's a good start.
We also have another good news storey.
We also have a supported accommodation parent and child
step -down provision that is going
to open at the end of February.
So where parents and babies are in an assessed residential home
and they're ready to move out of that
because they're doing fabulously well,
we are going to be opening our own supported accommodation
step -down for parents and their babies.
So that will be a fourth property that is a supported accommodation arm of our residential
transformation work.
As Councillor Jackson has already mentioned, we have started in the last three to six months
some really in -depth planning with housing colleagues around how can we address the pressure
which is we have quite a number of young people who turn 18 who are looked after and remain
in their looked after placement for sometimes six to nine months post 18 because they don't
have another option because they are waiting to be suitably housed.
However, under leaving care legislation as children's services as corporate parents,
we do have a duty to ensure that our young people are suitably accommodated.
And as we all know, we are all corporate parents, not just children's services, not just housing.
So that kind of joined up approach has resulted already in a shared housing protocol.
We meet fortnightly, housing and children's services, and we go through the list of our
young people who are either rising 18 or are already 18 who are really at most need and
it is at that point of most need and what constitutes most need.
And equally, each of our children, as you all know,
have varying needs of, various support needs based
on their independent skills.
So some of them are absolutely ready to go
into their own tendencies, but with some kind
of floating wraparound support.
Some of them need more supported type accommodation.
Some of them need a referral into adult services
and the Care Act pathway
because they need continued support post -18.
So that panel works really well.
What it doesn't do is address that delay,
which still exists around that kind of six to nine month mark of waiting for a suitable move on option.
However, we are working with housing to identify ways in which care experienced young people can
perhaps access social landlords in a more timely way, access private rented in a more timely way,
and equally look at growing our own provision. So as I say, we've got those four that are in those
various stages of refurbishment, but again, looking with commissioning colleagues and
not putting all our eggs in one basket as to how we could commission local private providers
who provide supported accommodation post -18, but in a smarter, more relationship -based
way so that our young people have good quality support post -18, but that it is more financially
viable than a looked -after children's placement.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:35:11
So on top of that, do we finance them in their new homes for a while?
How long do we do that for and do they get any training for how to live in the big wide
world and bank accounts, et cetera?
I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch all of that.
But when they're 18 plus and we put them into these homes and we find them flat or whatever
they live in, do we fund that?
Yes.
And also, do we make sure they know how to pay bills,
et cetera, et cetera, in bank accounts?
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:35:40
Yeah, so our young people, before they turn 18,
they are allocated a personal advisor
who continues to work with them.
The social worker drops off at 18.
Personal advisor continues to work with our young people
until they're 25, unless they choose not to.
They don't want to work with their personal advisor.
And we support our young people.
So going back to that joint housing protocol,
we have an agreement with housing
that our young people can be registered on the housing
register at 17 and a half.
So they can't have a tenancy until they're 18,
but it's making sure that everything's ready
so that when they turn 18, they can
start bidding for properties.
We do the same with benefits.
So we make sure that everything is set up
so that they can start applying for their universal credit
and housing benefit from their 18th birthday
so they're in receipt of everything
that they're financially entitled to.
So as we know that we've spoke about the cost of placements,
housing benefit, universal credit doesn't go anywhere near
covering that cost, but the housing benefit element
is used to offset against the placement cost.
And then we pay the difference, so to speak.
We also provide, you know, setting up home grant
and financial support around travel to education, et cetera,
and everything that's in our care leave, a local offer.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:36:58
We're kind of straying away from the children's home strategy a little bit, but I know that
they get a 3 ,000 pound, is it three or two, 3 ,000, 3 ,000 pound grant at the age of 18.
And they will have had a lot of wraparound support up until that point.
I know quite a lot about the care leave as offer.
I think the government could go further, honestly.
Honestly, but yeah, that's a different conversation for a different topic
Next question from Councillor Matthews, please
Cllr Wendy Matthews - 1:37:32
Thank you. I've just got two questions on page 46 of the report of the strategy
Under the KPI table. There seems to be a figure missing. So it says target by
22 something can you tell me what that is?
Okay, so that needs to be corrected
My other question was around the private homes that are within Buckinghamshire.
Is there any competition for places in those from external local authorities and how do
we manage that?
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:38:12
I think it would be fair to say that nationally there is competition for placements which
is why regrettably, you know, and it's not unique to Buckinghamshire, children end up
placed very, very far away.
And it has been that when you need a placement,
it is whatever is available, whoever comes forward
and says, based on the information that you've shared,
they can meet that child's needs.
And be under no illusion that we aren't offered five or six
different placements to choose from, more often than not,
we have one offer, which is sadly why a lot of our children
are so far away.
So whilst we do know who our local children's homes are that aren't our own, if they don't have a vacancy, we cannot use them equally.
Even if they did, the child that we want to place in any given time might not be suitable to be placed alongside that other child or might not fit within their statement of purpose.
So there's so many different factors, which is why I'd spoke about actually we need to commission smarter.
We need to build relationships so that, you know,
for a new children's home to open in the area, they have to come
through our planning department to get permission.
So we've already had a discussion with planning colleagues so that
when that happens, we're alerted so that we can start
to have discussions with that local provider.
And dare I say it, you know, get in there first and have those discussions
so that we can say, well, you know, we are in support of this, you know,
subject to the correct planning regulations, et cetera.
However, we would like to understand how we can work with you primarily so that we keep
children local and that we aren't in this competitive placement market of not only not
having a choice to meet need but also having to pretty much pay whatever's on the table.
Again, don't get me wrong, we do negotiate and we negotiate hard but when you need a
placement and there's only one option, you know, you can only go so far with that.
So it is still very much a work in progress but I think it isn't about we're competing
with other local authorities for Buckinghamshire places, we are competing with other local
authorities for all placements across the country and what we want to do is have, dare
I say it, more of a monopoly on the placements in Buckinghamshire so we can keep our children
nice and close.
Thank you.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:40:27
I think it's worth emphasising, if the Chairman doesn't mind, just how dysfunctional the market
is at the moment in terms of trying to find places where you have to look externally.
I mean, I don't have an ideological objection to the idea of using external providers if
they're very high quality, good value for money, and if they're in Buckinghamshire.
I'd absolutely go for it.
But there's no point trying to keep outsourcing, if that's the word, to a market unless it's
a functioning market.
And this is not a functioning market.
Demand is so massively an excessive supply that you can find yourself trying to find
and getting no answers, or you get one.
And when you're in that situation,
well, everyone in this room will know
what happens to the price of something
when you have a massive shortage of it
in that situation right now.
You also see, of course, it's not just about placement.
When you have a huge shortage, providers
can pick and choose the cases they want.
So there's something as well, why
take on the more complex cases, let's
take on the less complex cases and still
charge a huge amount of money?
It puts us in a difficult position.
The upsides are that we're responding to it.
We're responding to it quicker than most.
By the time we've got the 10 new homes open,
we'll be one of the biggest providers of in -house,
sort of local authority residential
children's homes in the country.
It'll also be interesting to see the effect on the market
as those homes go online,
as other councils start to do the same thing.
When we're doing this quicker than a lot of others,
we're not the only ones doing it.
So it'll be quite interesting to see sort of how that
shapes competition over the next kind of five, 10 years.
Just to come in and just to add some further context,
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:42:05
we're also part of a regional care cooperative
with 19 other local authorities in the southeast region
and we're a pathfinder, so we're one of two pathfinders
for government in terms of looking at how
regional care cooperatives can work.
And we've just in early days setting up
bed sharing arrangements, so what that means is that
if we haven't got a vacancy for one of our children,
we can look to our other authorities in that regional care cooperative
and see if they've got a vacancy.
We can essentially buy a bed from them.
So we're keeping children closer than we would necessarily going out to the wider market.
And those costs are more proportionate and you're paying another local authority,
not a hedge fund, for example.
So there are more, and you've got more control over the quality, etc.
So thank you
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:42:57
Councillor Townsend, please
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:43:01
Thank you. I appreciate this strategy only runs up to 2030 and I note that your
Goal is to have 45 % of our residential children in -house by 2029
What is this? What's the longer -term strategy you mentioned you wouldn't be looking to have a hundred percent children in -house
But what do you see sort of by?
2035, do you see that to be sort of more like 60 -70 or is that a pipe dream or is that not the right thing?
Sorry, secondly and forgive me if this is a really basic question
11 .7 million pound capital spend on ten homes. How does that break down? It seems very expensive for
32 beds, I'm sure there's a really good reason. I just want to understand how that works
So that's something I would have to come back to you on.
I'm not going to be able to sit here
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:43:59
and give you an exact breakdown.
But it is, you know, it's everything
from identifying a home, buying a home, and then the homes
that we've purchased have needed to be not just refurbished
but refurbished to Ofsted requirements,
which is quite an extensive list of, you know,
really quite stringent. To give you an anecdotal example, we've had a property where some of the bricks were decorative and stuck out slightly to make a pattern.
And we had to have those removed and flattened because a child could potentially climb the wall because the bricks came out so much.
Or, you know, a fence has to be a certain height and all the handles have to be so that children couldn't make ligatures and hurt themselves.
So there is a high spec in these homes that requires a higher spend than you or I refurbishing
our own home.
But in terms of the actual breakdown, I can't give it to you today, but I'm very happy to
provide it.
Can I?
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:44:59
It was just more to get a rough idea really of why it's, you know, you're looking at over
a million pound per home essentially, but that excludes staff and training costs because
it's just capital, right?
Can I just provide a comparison and we will assist when you consider really complex needs
and what we were at one time paying or we could pay for a child with very complex needs.
What was the highest we had per week?
40 ,000.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:45:23
40 ,000 per week for one child.
And essentially you wrap that up for the 12 months and do the math, then obviously anything
less than that or anything we can do to mitigate that is going to be a benefit.
Can I just come back to the first point you made though, however, because it's often hard
to predict what level of need we're going to be addressing in five to ten years.
We've done really well, and we're on a team, really well to adapt to the needs of what
we're seeing currently.
It's really hard to say, and God forbid we experience another pandemic or whatever else,
but something that will change the geography and the make -up of what it is around the complexity
of children that we're experiencing at the moment.
It's really hard to see what that trend's going to do in the next few years, but what we're doing right now
Is forecasting as best as we can see reviewing the data and the trends that we've seen thus far
Trying our best to predict the future, but it's really hard to be definitive around
What sort of level of need and provision we're going to provide in that level of time
And if I can just come in on that as well
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:46:29
I think the other factor that we've we've considered is that we actually see a decline in birth rates locally
So the data is suggesting that there will be a decline in birth rates and as I understand
it that's not local, that's national data.
So whilst, you know, Buckinghamshire is growing, actually the overall number of children is
not expected to rise at that same rate.
Certainly not the number of children who are subject to safeguarding, you know, concerns
that then warrant them becoming looked after children.
So we're also trying to factor in that actually our numbers are declining slightly plus as
we've alluded to in this, well, more than alluded to in the strategy, you know, our
efforts around edge of care and trying to have a preventative approach to children coming
into that system.
So I think, you know, I'm very confident in the numbers that we're projecting in terms
of that split and what that looks like.
I don't feel confident enough to know beyond that what that might look like because as
Errol has said, you know, it's shifting sand constantly.
And I think also there needs to be a recognition that we can't do everything ourselves.
And some children do need to be, children with massive exploitation risks, they do need
to be out of county and for a very good reason.
Children with high level mental health needs who may be subject to section will unlikely
be sectioned in the local area.
So there will always be a percentage of children in not our own provisions and not within a
20 mile radius.
Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:48:00
Thank you, it was a really detailed answer, I appreciate that.
Cllr Alan Sherwell - 1:48:04
Next question from Councillor Sherwell, please.
Thank you.
Councillor Jackson and Mr Kavanagh mentioned Ofsted and what they do,
what you're trying to do internally to deal with a particular problem.
I can't believe that this is an isolated problem to Buckinghamshire.
Are we doing anything by the local government association or in contact with our local members of parliament
to try to press some wider support for action to help us to deal with the problem?
And clearly I understand what you say about the resource.
The lady that's actually in charge of doing it in the area has got the people that she's got to do it and they're not enough.
But it really is both ironic and unsatisfactory that the organisation is designed to ensure that we have the best possible care for our children.
It's the thing that's actually blocking us giving the best possible care to our children.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Schell.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:49:18
Yeah, I mean, Emma might have more insight into it than I do.
My understanding is that the delays are not just a Buckinghamshire issue.
I think they are broader than that.
I mean, my understanding is that we have a good relationship with our local team, AUSTEDWISE
or our local person, AUSTEDWISE.
But ultimately, there are delays building up in the system.
A letter is pretty much finalised to go to the minister responsible, which I will sign
off shortly to sort of make the point, say, look, are you aware of this and are you aware
of the impact and the consequences?
There's a couple of other points that Emma and I were discussing earlier about the way
Australia is administering certain applications for registration that Emma is going to have
conversation with some contacts in other local authorities to see if they're having the same
kind of issues.
because obviously if we take to the minister one anecdote from Buckinghamshire it might not be that powerful.
If it turns out that everyone's reporting the same thing from across the region or the country,
then we might be able to say, look, this is a particular administrative issue which is setting us back,
in our case, six weeks, we think, then we will do that.
So what we haven't done is write to our local MPs yet.
I'm happy to give that some thought, actually, because we did it with the cancelation
or proposed cancelation for the special school.
So there's no reason why we couldn't do it on this.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:50:38
If I could make a suggestion, I mean the MPs come in to see the leader on a monthly basis.
So perhaps that might be a time you could raise the leader.
Cllr Alan Sherwell - 1:50:47
Yeah, I also would push the government association or the county council's network
because that depleticizes the issue.
It's not a Conservative council complaining about the service that it's getting.
It's the corporate voice of the local government complaining about the service that everybody is getting.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:51:09
Thank you, Councillor Sherwell.
Councillor Mormina, please.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 1:51:12
Yeah, slightly outside housing.
But look, I think it's fair to say, and my colleagues will agree, that the children who
are under our care fare very well.
And it's not to be self -congratulatory, but I think, you know, collectively we're doing
a good job here.
However, my concern is those who, about those who should be
in our care and aren't, and those who are in our care
and need to leave our care.
So with regards to the first kind of category,
I was quite taken by the increase, projected increase.
It's small, but still significant.
and projected increase in the number of unaccompanied asylum -seeking children.
It was very interesting to hear yesterday at the corporate parenting panel that these
children are arriving with increased complexity of needs, and a good number of them are not
ready, upon arrival, are not ready to engage with our services.
So what are we doing to safeguard them when they're not engaging with our services?
And equally at the other end, the transitioning out of care.
If I remember correctly, that was one of the areas that was flagged up by one of the Ofsted
reports as a particular weak point.
So how are we, beyond the provision of the personal assistant, how are we ensuring that
that cliff edge is not there when they transition out of care.
So two kinds of...
two sides of the same question.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:53:11
I think the other thing the committee was discussing as well
before the meeting was about the additional resources for asylum seekers
and also if we have like a lead on asylum seeking children.
It's just some information that the committee wanted to know.
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:53:36
I always like to give you the answers that I can but this would be under
Alison Munt's service area so I would not want to give you incorrect
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:53:45
information I'm afraid. No problem at all. Errol can we just ask Alison if she could? Yes certainly
chair I mean there is a silence I'm seeking tea obviously we can bring further
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:53:53
information in relation to that because I'm aware that this is a question that's
been asked several times around our unaccompanied young people that
are actually, as you say, Councillor, arrive in Buckinghamshire hugely traumatised and
indeed need support. However, if they do not present for support, that's often an issue
and it's about what else is out there. Just on the safeguarding piece as well, those that
aren't subject to social care plans or so on, everybody has a responsibility in safeguarding
children, not just social workers, not just social care, but education, health and others.
So it is very much everybody's business.
And, you know, we are, and you will see from the reforms as well,
that there is much talk about family networks and families being empowered
to come together and find solutions and utilise in universal settings as well
as the voluntary community sector as well.
So this is something we constantly repeat because it's everybody,
it's down to us all, isn't it, to ensure that children are safeguarded
and when there is an issue that they refer to the appropriate people or indeed look for the support within their community.
But yes, we are ever vigilant with our partners in terms of safeguarding issues.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:55:05
Emma Kavanagh - Service Director for Provider Services - 1:55:08
Thank you very much. What I can say is from a
provision of a service, we all of our unaccompanied asylum seeking young people
who are accommodated and then turn 18, they have the same
offer and rights as our indigenous children.
So they will remain in their looked after placement post 18.
They will remain in supported accommodation.
And if they don't have their status yet, they will continue to access that without,
fully funded by children's services, cuz they cannot access housing benefit, etc.
And then when they do get that status, it's the same as with our indigenous
care leavers would support them with the personal advisor to get their housing benefit to have
their, you know, leaving care grant, all the rest of it. So the offer is identical and
the support that they have in placement is in line with their identified needs. So quite
often our unaccompanied children will have packages of support that are enhanced, not
only because English isn't their first language but because they need that level of support
around, you know, adapting to the local community, learning independent skills, etc.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:56:22
Councillor Townsend, we are running just ahead of time and I was hoping that we could call a break
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:56:32
before we go into the next item. So quick question please. It's very quick, because I think probably
you won't be able to provide the information now but in addition to the information you were going
to ask Alice in month two, look I'd like to know what the outcomes for unaccompanied asylum seeker
children are in comparison to our other looked after children. So in terms of
education, mental health, placement, stability and outcomes after leaving
care. I don't know if we have enough data on that but I think this report flagged to me
that it was a higher percentage of our looked after children are unaccompanied
asylum seekers than I'd realised. So I think that's why probably a few of us
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:57:07
are quite interested. Thank you. Thank you, Councillor Townsend. If I could just ask for the webcast to
paused please so that we can just take a quick 10 minute break.

8 School Attendance review - recommendation monitoring

Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:57:26
Good afternoon and welcome back. Thank you for your patience while we had a quick break.
many of us have been in since one o 'clock so we were willing to um so we're moving on to agenda
item eight which is the school attendance review um recommendation monitoring Councillor Jackson
Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:58:02
would you like to present this report please thank you chairman yeah this is a report back on a
series of recommendations made by this committee um and the uh then obviously description of the
progress, the cabinet response and the confirmation that the actions are being completed.
I think the recommendations were perfectly sensible.
I think there was one case where it was a statutory duty, which we were doing anyway.
But in other cases, the recommendations have been taken on board and responded to.
Happy to take any questions.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:58:28
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:58:30
Sorry, Chair, may I just add, Michael Jarrett was due to him.
He couldn't attend today.
So he has the detail on this one.
So if there are any questions, I will do my best.
And also, Kate Duffy, who's taking over and working
in schools and education, has had to leave as well.
So I can't promise I'll be able to answer
any particular detailed questions,
Cllr Susan Morgan - 1:58:52
but I'll do my best.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
I think my only comments were that the campaign appears
to have had lower engagement this year.
And I just wondered what plans we had in place to kind of avoid that campaign fatigue.
And also to, you know, what are we doing to kind of reach those harder to engage families.
And there seemed to be quite limited engagement with schools due to the timings.
I think this was done over the school holidays in the summer.
So future campaigns, can we try and avoid term time please, or not avoid term time, keep it in term time?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:59:41
Absolutely, Chair, and that is noted, and I'm sure if Michael was here he would reflect on that as well,
and I can't recall the reasons why this took place over that period, but I'm sure somebody would have had the answer had they been here.
We would absolutely take forward the fact that the comments in relation to hard to engage families,
we're going to continue with ensuring that every school is aware of the importance of this whole attendance programme.
So there's no intention to let up on the message that's going out to our school partners around this,
and we'll continue on and also learn from this, as you mentioned, families that were hard to engage,
what is it we can take from there and do things slightly differently.
So we'll be taking that forward as part of the next steps.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 2:00:30
I'm pleased to see in your report as well in the lessons learned section exactly the
point you've made Chairman, I think it's taken on board your point that summer holidays best
avoided so I'd expect to see that done this time round.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:00:41
Thank you Councillor Jackson.
Questions from the committee?
Councillor Tam then please.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 2:00:46
Which of the recommendations from the review have made the biggest measurable difference
so far?
And which would you say have little or no impact despite the implementation?
I appreciate you might not be able to answer this one.
I'm afraid I might not be able to answer that one.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:01:04
But I'm happy to come back to you if you wouldn't mind.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:01:10
Thank you.
Councillor, who had their hand up?
Councillor Cornell, thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 2:01:20
It's just a quickie.
How will the Council evaluate whether soft start approaches
breakfast clubs and strengthened transition programmes
are improving attendance and reducing anxiety -related
absence among vulnerable pupils?
Sorry, Councillor, we didn't quite get that.
Can you just repeat your question, please?
How will the council evaluate whether soft start approaches,
breakfast clubs, and strength and transition programmes are
improving attendance and reducing anxiety -related absence
among vulnerable pupils?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:01:58
Well, I think the follow -up from this exercise will obviously be
a return to the schools involved in this.
Obviously, it's going to be really important for us to
interrogate attendance data from those schools.
And obviously hear from people's parents
and school leaders themselves in terms
of what differences this has made.
So it's going to follow up on a period of evaluation.
And obviously, notwithstanding the point that was made earlier,
making sure that that's the time where we get a good response
to our follow -up ultimately.
But it's going to be very much evident in what we see
in this current term and the terms moving forward.
So we will continue to evaluate the progress and, as I say,
interrogate the data as best as we can.
But I think it's going to be really important as well
to hear directly from families and around their experiences
and what difference this has made in their lives.
You're absolutely right.
There are some, the whole anxiety -based absence is
an issue.
And that's come about for a number of reasons.
And through this work, we'll continue to evaluate
and review and keep an eye on the data and return back to these schools in future to
see what differences this has made.
Thank you.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 2:03:14
Can I just have one little aside, please?
As a sort of aside, and it's probably nothing to do with it, but at the breakfast clubs,
do we make sure they have a nutritionally satisfactory breakfast, not just a slice of
toast and a piece of butter?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:03:29
From what I understand, it's a requirement, absolutely, to have a healthy diet.
We all know that the start of the day is having a decent breakfast,
so that's something that schools are very well aware of
and do their very best to meet the requirements around healthy eating for children.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:03:45
Thank you. Councillor Azzam, please.
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 2:03:48
Thank you, Chair. I have a particular interest in attendance at schools,
being a senior lead in my past, looking at attendance and working with parents and so on,
and I know how difficult it is.
And it was then, I'm thankfully I'm retired, but nevertheless I have a particular interest
in this.
So my question to you is, is how will the council ensure that future school attendance
campaigns continue to reach and engage parents effectively, that's an important part, given
the mixed engagement levels reported during recent phases of the present for the future
campaign?
Thank you.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 2:04:32
Yeah, thanks. I mean, I think obviously we need to look at what's worked well and what
hasn't worked from the existing campaign. There's a lessons learned section in this
report where we've already touched on the timing, where clearly the summer holidays
was not a great thing, not a great time to start it. There's ways of engaging on social
media as well. I think there's an observation in the report that it was better to try and
engaging community groups about this than there was just putting stuff on the Buzz Council
Facebook page or on the Buzz Council Twitter page, how many people are actually seeing
that, what does the impressions data really mean in the analytics on those kind of posts.
There's a difference between an impression and someone actually reading, understanding,
and the post making a difference, I think.
So I think we – I don't really need to look to the latest advice from the comms team
as well.
I think what's working, not just from this campaign, but from other campaigns that Council
to try and boost engagement.
I might even lean on councillors to,
when the time comes, to see if they can promote it
via their social media and reach their communities too,
if it's not too rude to give you another job to do.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:05:41
And also, I think, thank you, councillor,
we will, we look at the areas where it's worked best,
or where it's worked well, taking that good practise
and sharing that across other areas as well.
As we know with schools, some outperform others,
but I think where we've seen effectiveness
and then Councillor Jackson's just referenced our comms team.
So we're able to determine where there have been
a number of hits, for instance,
on a social media site or whatever else.
If we can learn something from that data,
then obviously we will share those strategies
and those mechanisms with other areas as well
to make sure that we reach the hard to reach
as was mentioned.
I think it's important as well in terms of communities
where English isn't the first language
to ensure that we've got a good understanding of local areas and to see if there's any patterns
there in relation to the community and obviously what's impacting on school attendance and making
sure that we're ensuring that information is easily available to all with each of our
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 2:06:48
communities across the school community. And you will agree also that it's important to
to obviously work with our cross -countries as well,
with good practise across there,
because it's only sometimes we feel what we've got here,
because we need to look at those counties
where the attendance is perhaps better,
areas where there is much better,
and perhaps learn from those, and bring on board.
I mean, a lot of the campaigns,
a lot of the strategies are very similar,
but it is also the most important thing is,
is the question that was particularly I wanted,
was the engaging parents effectively.
And that is a really difficult task.
Indeed, and you're absolutely right, Councillor.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:07:27
Whatever we can learn from other authorities, we will do so.
Generally, in terms of comparison, we're not doing two hands.
I mean, comparatively, we're doing better than other areas.
So, I believe a lot of other areas are looking to us to say,
what is it we can learn from you?
So, we have to be mindful of that as well.
But, yes, point is taken.
If we seek a practise from other authorities,
we'll indeed tap into that too.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:07:47
Thank you for your answer.
Thank you.
Councillor Sherwell, please.
Cllr Alan Sherwell - 2:07:51
Thank you.
Not a question, but a request that you might do a little bit of investigation.
A number of academy schools locally decided that the autumn term was really rather long
and that they would extend the school day to buy a two -week half term.
Now, that in itself doesn't sound absurd by any means,
because it is long and teachers are very tired
by the end of their autumn term.
Talking to a secondary school that did not do that,
they found that in the week that the other schools were
having the half term, their absences increased
significantly.
And it's the usual business of the cost of school holidays, and if you're visiting your family and they're in Canada or Pakistan,
you don't want to go for three days and spend all that on the airfare and all the rest of it.
Now at the moment, I only have that anecdotal evidence from one school.
But I wonder if you could make a few inquiries and see if that's a general problem, and then perhaps some noises could be made.
I happen to know personally one of the trustees at the top level of one of the trustees that was doing this,
and I was meeting with her for a coffee personally, and I just mentioned this to her, and she said,
Thank you, Councillor Sherwell.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:09:39
As you say, at this stage, it's anecdotal evidence,
so it's something that'll need to go away,
and it's not something I've heard myself at this stage.
And as you rightly point out,
in the sense that it could have
potentially unintended consequences
in relation to additional problems around attendance.
You'll recall from Michael, who's been here previously,
around the zero tolerance around taking children out
of schools for family holidays, et cetera.
that message had been shared.
... 100 quid and the same 1000 pounds of the...
Indeed, absolutely.
... of the family that were there.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:10:12
But I do think we need to make sure we exclude those SEND students.
Sorry?
Excluding the SEND students.
Yes.
Because that's a very difficult one.
I mean, actually,
SEND parents prefer to
holiday outside of the school holidays
because it's better for the child.
So it's about looking at that
in the right way, I think.
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:10:37
But in terms of the question noted, I'll go away and make some inquiries. Thank you.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:10:43
Cllr Maru Mormina - 2:10:46
Councillor Mormina, please.
A little bit touching upon what my colleagues have said.
How much do we know
about the underlying causes of
of non -attendance or poor attendance.
Because it seems to me that we're looking at these issues
quite in isolation.
So we had the first part of this meeting,
we had a discussion around SEND.
Now we're having a discussion around school attendance.
And the reality is all these issues are interlinked
and interconnected and call for a systemic approach.
Ultimately, what will drive attendance is our children wanting to be in school and wanting
to go to school and feeling that that is where they belong.
So we need to understand why they don't feel that they belong and tackle the root causes.
So, are our campaigns that have had so poor engagement underpinned by sound understanding
of what are the courses driving attendance?
My school head teacher talks about Dovidate, and I find that rather simplistic.
I think we need to really understand, you know, the complexity and the whole gamut of
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:12:19
courses here. Indeed, I think just a general response to that, schools work hard to try
and understand, particularly if there are themes around non -attendance or the rates
get beyond where they want to see them. And as you rightly point out, there can be a variety
of reasons from duvet days, as you suggest, which isn't the best encouragement of a care
or a parent for a child because it didn't set the right example.
We know about the anxiety -based concerns as well in terms
of many children for some time have struggled with the concept
of going into school and parents' care has been
sympathetic to that.
We also know, as an example, that some parents' carers
sadly rely on their children as carers and going to school means
that they are without some support and care as well.
So the point I'm making is yes absolutely noted variety of reasons really hard to pin it down to a few
several
But in terms of our understanding, it's obviously working closely with our schools to gain that picture
Many schools in Buckinghamshire as well across a very large County with different issues in each area. So
How we how we gather that information from all of those schools
Well, obviously our attendance teams work closely with our school leaders and they're continually looking at data around absence.
I need to go away to find out if we actually look at what we do currently in relation to the causation in terms of non -attendance.
That's an interesting area, but something again I'll need to report back at a later date.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:13:57
I think it would be interesting to see some patterns.
One of the other things I was just going to add to that is that as a council we've got a very limited capacity in terms of us holding the schools to account.
And that's really part of the problem. So if I give you an example, there was a Year 10 student who had undiagnosed needs, has now had a diagnosis,
has been waiting six or seven months currently for an educational healthcare plan.
And the school refused to acknowledge any kind of part -time timetable.
And, you know, now she's not allowed to go to prom because the school require 100 % attendance.
And so she's missing out on that with her friends, that opportunity, because the school can't meet her needs.
and we do have a very limited capacity in terms of,
you know, we can talk to the schools
till we're blue in the face,
but quite frankly they don't have to listen to us
if they don't want to,
and I think that's really part of the problem.
I think, is that not something
that the white paper seeks to change?
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:15:09
Yes, the white paper is looking at some regulatory changes
to ensure that independent schools, for instance,
are bought in line with main streams,
particularly around things such as attendance. You're absolutely right, Chair.
Our attendance staff within the Council is very small in comparison to the scale of the schools
and the issue that we're dealing with. But you're absolutely right, there is hope that the white
paper would make some difference, but there's no guarantee that that would be the case.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:15:40
I think I'll make a huge improvement if they had accountability, some form of accountability,
to the council, so I really hope that's something
the government have picked up on.
Do you have questions?
Any other questions from any other member
of the committee on this?
Amazing.

9 Work Programme

So moving on to agenda item nine,
which is the work programme.
Bear with me just a second.
So we've got the Quarter 3 performance monitoring, which is going to Kavanagh in February.
We've got the school's Ofsted inspection outcomes and education standards report and the youth
participation strategies.
There's quite a few items on the agenda for the March meeting.
Councillor Townsend.
Thank you.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 2:16:49
Can I just clarify the school's off -site inspection outcomes,
that is not the same as the send off -site inspection
that occurred in November, December?
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:16:59
It isn't, but I would suggest...
Shouldn't it be there?
I have had a conversation, not with Evel since he took over,
but with Sarah previously,
that we might want to combine those two items.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 2:17:13
I think surely it's critical that we see that in March.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:17:15
Yeah, I agree with that. If that's okay.
We'll just double cheque and make sure that it's okay in the timescale.
But hopefully we can bring something together to give an overview.
Cllr Carl Jackson - 2:17:29
Well, if we're talking about the recent office of inspiration,
then I mean that should be with us by the 13th of February.
It's public at that point.
So there's no obstacle to you discussing it after that date.
Cllr Susan Morgan - 2:17:41
Any other questions on the Work Programme for March, for the March meeting?
If you have any suggestions for the Work Programme for the following year,
please let us know, but we will be looking to put that together over the coming months.

10 Q2 performance - Children's Services portfolio (Information only)

So on to Agenda Item 10, which is the Quarter 2 performance.
Do members wish to say anything on this report?
But it is really for information only, and as we've said, it's quite outdated really.
I think we've spoken quite a lot on the number of KPIs and things today.
And Quarter 3's report will come to us at the next meeting.
No? Brilliant. Anything you wanted to add, Councillor Jackson?
No, not this stage. Thank you, Jo.

11 Date of Next Meeting

Thank you. Well, that brings us to the final agenda item and we've come in early, which I'm pleased about.
So the next meeting will be at two o 'clock on Thursday the 26th of March, back in the Oculus here at the Gateway.
Thank you all for attending this afternoon. The meeting is now closed.