Audit and Governance Committee - Tuesday 10 February 2026, 4:00pm - Buckinghamshire Council Webcasting

Audit and Governance Committee
Tuesday, 10th February 2026 at 4:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  2. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  3. Chris Ward - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer
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  1. Cllr Matthew Walsh
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  1. Cllr Robert Carington
  2. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  3. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  4. Cllr Chris Chilton
  5. Cllr Robert Carington
  6. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  7. Cllr Chris Chilton
  8. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  9. Cllr Chris Chilton
  10. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  11. Cllr Alan Sherwell
  12. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  13. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  14. Cllr Alex Collingwood
  15. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  16. Cllr Martin Tett
  17. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  18. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  19. Cllr Martin Tett
  20. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  21. Cllr Alex Collingwood
  22. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  23. Cllr Martin Tett
  24. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  25. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  26. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  27. Cllr Chris Poll
  28. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  29. Cllr Alex Collingwood
  30. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  31. Cllr Martin Tett
  32. David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer
  33. Cllr Matthew Walsh
  34. Cllr Martin Tett
  35. Cllr Matthew Walsh
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  1. Webcast Finished

Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:00:00
Good afternoon everybody and welcome to the Audit and Governance Committee here at the
Gateway on Tuesday the 10th of February.
For those joining us on webcast, a particular warm welcome.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:00:14
We'll move straight on to Agenda Item 1, which is apologies.
Thank you Chairman.
Chris Ward - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer - 0:00:21
We have apologies from Councillors Clark, Dillon, Rouse and Wilson and Councillor Mitter
has advised she'll be arriving late.

1 Apologies

And we also have apologies from Fiona Jump.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:00:30
And I'm moving on to gender item two,
declarations of interest.

2 Declarations of interest

Any declarations from members?
I'm recorded, thank you.
And that takes us on to our one agenda item,

3 Treasury Management Strategy 2026-27 to 2028-29

which is the treasury management strategy 26 to 29.
I will hand over to Councillor Carrington.
Oh, thank you very much, Chair,
and afternoon all, it's a pleasure to be back.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:00:54
So just to quickly sort of, very, very quickly summarise.
So following the last meeting and the Treasury management strategy and so some turns were raised
regarding some of the aspects
one particular
recommendation in the strategy
recommendation for
and particularly over the limits and
Following feedback and some very valid and helpful observations from members of the committee particularly council Collingwood and the chair
regarding potential alternative limits
and regarding timeframes.
Those have been fed into the revised strategy
and I know there's been some member briefings last week
to sort of show the working and behind some of the decisions
and we have now come to you with a revised strategy
and Dave, is there anything more you want to add to that?
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:02:04
Thank you, I think just to add in terms of the additional
work that was undertaken reflected the request
from the committee in terms of the detail,
in terms of the procedures around how it would operate,
the assessment in terms of other local authorities,
and then also kind of the mechanics of how
the on -the -day trading would take place as well,
and the levels of staff involved,
just probably to worthwhile saying I'm sure that the chairman will probably want to add something in terms of the
members were
Assured in terms of kind of by that additional information and welcome the opportunity to to ask some more
Detailed questions on some of those detailed as operational procedures, but we're satisfied and assured in terms of the answers provided
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:02:49
Yes, thank you very much for that council Carrington and mr. Skinner and I just like to place on my thanks the thanks to both David
now Section 151 and Feoda Jumphow, Deputy Section 151 for facilitating the additional
member drop -in sessions and the additional reassurance paperwork that was provided to
all members of this committee. I found it very helpful and I think members have reached out to
me to say that they feel much better assured with the information you've provided so please record
my thanks to everyone for that. I'll go straight to members questions now. Councillor Chiltern.
Cllr Chris Chilton - 0:03:23
I'm very supportive of the proposal, very much so.
I have a couple of questions.
Why have we not done inter -local authority loans in the past?
What has stopped us doing them in the past and why have we kind
of now reached the decision that we should be doing them?
Isn't there a kind of, if there's a money to be made
in the future, wasn't there money to be made in the past too?
Thank you very much for the question.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:03:53
And so the policy was always there.
We always could do it.
It's just there were tighter that there was a very quite
rigid system that you need signatures from Section 151,
from the CEA, from the leader, which would take time.
And that meant that on some of these it just wasn't feasible
because it's a fast -moving space.
That was a reaction of the time.
I think the decision was made back in,
was it the final year, 23, 24,
when coming about after FURUC.
So it was a reaction of the time.
And we've now, following sort of further work,
are now in a position where we feel
we're in a stronger position to implement these changes.
If you want to add to that.
And just to add in terms of
when those controls were brought in,
then obviously what we were seeing
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:04:45
was some of the systemic stress through the system playing through is the first time that
we'd seen one -one falls from a wider variety of local authorities, so not just Northamptonshire,
which is kind of well known, so a number of other authorities.
The main difference in terms of that there is more money now available, the gap between
the bank rate and also the local authority rate has grown, and we've seen that significantly
change over the last 12 months and actually towards the back end of the last previous
12 months in terms of kind of going through so I don't think it would be fair to position it as
We haven't been able to secure money
I think now is the right time to try and seize this being cognizant of obviously security and
Liquidity as well in terms of going forward. So it's a new opportunity rather than an opportunity that's been foregone in the past
Cllr Chris Chilton - 0:05:40
A second question completely different topic the CCLA pool property fund is
is on the list of cash assets.
Is that covered by the treasury strategy
or is it not considered to be a treasury investment
and it's covered by investment strategy?
It's considered a treasury management asset
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:05:58
and you can cash it in so you could sell
the shares that we hold.
I wouldn't advise doing that at the moment
given where we are and is a longer term investment
so and reflects the historic position of
a number of the legacy councils in terms of the kind of the went through placed it partly as a result of the very low interest
rates that we were seeing at that time and
Property fund was giving an additional yield
It's still giving a a strong yield in terms when the the value is is gradually increasing backup
Cllr Chris Chilton - 0:06:36
So we do include it within the Treasury strategy and the recommendation is to keep it because it's delivering a great yield
Okay, thank you.
Councillor Sherwell.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:06:42
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:06:46
I wanted really to thank the officers for the work that they've done since the last
meeting.
I said at that meeting that at one stage when I was leader of Aylesbury Vale District Council
and finance, had finance responsibility, we of course had precisely the same issues.
People wanted to lend our money at the most advantageous rate
and those decisions had to be made quickly.
I did not have the financial expertise to determine whether those decisions were right or wrong.
That's what we employ people like Mr. Skinner for.
What I have got is the, I hope, logical mind which allows me to say,
this process is secure.
We have people that are going through this process that
know what they're doing and the ability to challenge
exists within the process.
So the decision will be as often as possible,
and it can't be perfect, as often as possible right.
I did not have that assurance from the original papers.
I do have the assurance from what we have done subsequently.
And it's really important that as members we do have that assurance,
because as I say, most of us can't challenge your financial expertise,
so we have to be sure that the process is right.
And thank you for going along with that desire of the previous meeting
and producing something which I certainly am happy with.
Thank you, Councillor Sherwood.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:08:27
Councillor Collingwood.
Oh, sorry.
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:08:32
Just to say thank you very much for that and also in terms of thank you for Fiona and Nicky and the rest of the team that contributed to it.
So by no means is it a one man show. There's a whole team that kind of goes into that and the expertise and all the work that they do.
I think it is, you know, thank you very much for reflecting on that.
One of the things that struck me was obviously the process flow chart, which I was happy
with.
Cllr Alex Collingwood - 0:08:57
The only bit I thought we underplayed was it just talks about broker.
And I know we've left it generic because theoretically we could have, I think it's about three or
four main brokers within the market who could bring us deals potentially.
But our main advisor is MUFG.
And I've double checked my data, I knew anyway.
But just so everyone gets context,
the people who are advising us are MUFG,
as in Mitsubishi Financial Group.
They are the largest finance group in the whole of Japan.
They're top 10 in the whole world.
They have 2 .7 trillion of assets.
And this is one of their divisions
that they have, if that makes sense.
So actually, they own 23 % of Morgan Stanley, to be honest.
So in terms of who's advising us,
obviously, ultimately, we and the team
have to make the ultimate decisions.
But they are the ones who've got their own risk ratings
situations, so the amber green red that's come from them to tell us you know
their professional perspective if that makes sense. So again it's not
just the officers working in in in isolation they're actually working with
proper you know top -class world -class financial advisors here so for me I'm
fully supportive of this process and programme but I think the extra detail
actually does then give you that that comfort that actually what we now set
out is is right and appropriate for this period of time.
Thank you.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:10:17
Okay, any further questions from members on the paper?
First of all, Chairman, if I can just offer two apologies.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:10:26
One is I've been, I'm late because I was A delayed
on the way here by a bloody great accident in Amersham.
And also I've just been talking to the lead of the council
outside about this very topic.
So I remain having concerns on this from the discussions that you and I have had informally
and also at the last meeting.
And the point I've just made outside is the difficulty of anticipating councils that will
go into exceptional financial support.
Now, stop me if you've covered this already, but I've seen something from the LGA in the
last few days that actually said that something like, they anticipate a third of councils
will need exceptional financial support.
And these pop up from nowhere, where actually something
can look very stable for a period of time,
and then suddenly it goes over.
And my concern in reputational rationale is, you know,
the damage that can be done to our council's reputation
if we've lent to somebody who might, for example,
have been on the Amber list,
and then they go over into the Red list.
And that happens quite precipitously.
And yes, ultimately, every penny, every pound is underwritten by MHCLG.
I get that.
But A, there's the timing issue of how long it takes to get that money back.
And I can remember Iceland, which is not a local council, but was a country we lent to
historically, where it took years to get that money back.
And in the meantime, the council's reputation, and indeed other councils, suffered in the
So I don't have an issue having reflected on this with the green list.
My question remains with the amber list and the quality of the information that we rely
on to populate that amber list given the volatility of local government finance and particularly
the recent LGA comment about a third of councils potentially needing exceptional financial
support.
So those remain my reservations on this.
Now, I'm sure our head of finance will reassure me that actually his political and financial
antennae are incredibly highly tuned, and he can anticipate which councils will tip
over from amber into red or green into amber.
But I do have that residual concern.
Thank you.
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:12:55
and I can understand the concern entirely,
then the world of local authority finance
is quite dynamic.
What we are seeing through the settlement this year
is an attempt to try and sustain local authority funding
in a different way than we previously seen
from different governments, whether that's successful
or not remains to be seen.
What I would say is the request for EFS go in,
generally speaking, annually.
There are some exceptions to that in terms of kind
of going through, but MHCLG doesn't necessarily consider
them on an ad hoc basis.
They are starting to consider them
in a more structured fashion.
And we should know the requests that are successful in terms
of kind of going through by the end of this financial year
if things go according to timing from MHCLG.
In terms of the intelligence, then obviously,
then I'm a member of a number of different
treasurer's groups, so SUT, SCT, and so on,
in terms of kind of going through politically,
then obviously we're through the LGA and the CCN as well,
and members are party to other intelligence
from other things, and I would strongly encourage
members of this committee, if they've got views as well,
to share any views in terms of any other authorities
that they may well have information on.
So there is no perfect view of this world, no matter how good we are, but we are as well
connected as we can be.
And as you said earlier, I think the financial underpin from MHCLG is still strong, is still
there.
No local authority has ever defaulted on a loan.
And as far as I'm aware, then no local authority has ever paid a loan late in terms of going
through.
So in the example that you gave in terms of Iceland that was protracted effort over years to try and secure the money back
then no local authority has ever defaulted in terms of the timing of a loan either to the best of my knowledge.
So I think that there is some more assurance there, but fully understand some of the reservations that you hold.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:15:08
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:15:11
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:15:13
I've been here longer than you have, Martin. I was one of those working -out leaders who
Cllr Alex Collingwood - 0:15:17
had Iceland and I got my money straight back to this question about being, and Mr. Skinner
had to be a 151 officer. So let's put it this way, Mr. Skinner is right, you do need to
have your eye on the ball.
But in reality, it is about risk.
And to be honest, how do I describe it?
In terms of what we've got in front of us,
this is as good a flow chart as I've seen.
Having worked in this whole sector
with multiple other authorities, this
is the most stringent process that you will find
in any council across the land.
in terms of how the controls and cheques and balances will work.
A lot of them just have literally one person dealing with Treasury, that's it, they get on and do it.
They have delegated authority and that's it.
Whereas we've got a whole process there, and what I was saying before you arrived was that
actually our advisor is MUFG, who's actually the largest financial group in Japan and top ten in the world,
who actually owns 23 % of all with Stanley.
So yes, I'll leave it there, I've got another point, but I'll come back in a bit.
Councillor Tett.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:16:27
Thank you.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:16:29
Yeah, and I absolutely bow and accept to Alec Collinwood's having been on this committee longer than I have.
I also was around very much in the days of Iceland in the former Buckinghamshire County Council.
Just to say, I mean, I accept there may well be a well -documented process.
Processes are good. They don't provide, you know, complete security.
As I said, I'm not trying to be difficult.
I'm really not.
I'm actually looking at the reputation of this council and trying to avoid any situation
that leads it into a situation where its reputation or in the shorter term its finances are jeopardised.
I'm not looking at what other councils do, whether they have a junior finance guy sitting
in a little broom cupboard somewhere instead of having a process.
That to me is irrelevant, frankly.
It's what we do as a council that's the main thing here.
And I'm just concerned that we are in much more volatile times now than we have been for a significant period.
I heard the leader this morning
chairing cabinet talking about the local government finance settlement, the way in which that has been effectively weighted very heavily towards
certain councils in certain parts of the country and weighted away from others effectively.
And so, you know, my concern is simply that there is an underlying structural instability
in some councils which may not be immediately apparent, which could come to the fore.
And we could end up having lent to them inadvertently having followed due process and so on.
I'm happy to hear everything that Mr. Collingwood says.
You know, he's a very highly expert finance person in the city.
I'm just saying here as a mere counsellor, as a mere backbencher, that I have these residual
concerns, which I think it's quite legitimate to add.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:18:28
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:18:31
So, I can understand that in terms of, I think, the reputational risk that I think members
of this committee have heard and have considered.
I think they understand the different risk profiles between the green, amber, and red
lists in terms of kind of the preparation that goes into those, fully accept the fact
that people can move in terms of kind of going through.
But I think the important thing is that as long as this committee is satisfied and then
ultimately full council is satisfied in terms of understanding the concerns, the mitigations,
and so on, then there is sufficient mitigation that we're putting in place to be able to
manage that and understand the reputational impact.
Also I think as you say that the headline that's coming through from the LGA considering
potentially that, you know, maybe a third of councils will be in an EFS kind of place,
then actually I think then that helps to manage some of the reputational risk as well.
That actually it's not that exceptional in terms of kind of going through and actually
those councils would still be able to satisfy and pay all their debts.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:19:34
Cllr Chris Poll - 0:19:37
Councillor Pohl then Councillor Collingwood. Thank you Chairman and I'd like to thank
Mr. Skinner and Ms. Jump for their explanations in the briefing. The
concerns that I had were completely answered particularly with the in regard
to the red, amber and green weightings, the regular reporting to the cabinet member and
also to ourselves, Jim. So I'm very happy and I pay tribute to the team for taking the
time to explain to us members exactly how the risks are to be managed.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:20:19
Cllr Alex Collingwood - 0:20:21
Thank you, Jim. I did forget to mention was obviously I was at cabinet this morning. One
of the things that came out overnight, which I think,
reputation -wise, in terms of the sector as a whole,
is the government have now said they will guarantee 90 %
of the DSG, which, to me, fundamentally,
because that was almost the big, reputation -wise,
Councillor Tech, was to me the big reputational sort
of elephant in the room, if that makes sense.
Now, obviously, some councils will be a better place
to deal with that than others.
But the point is, again, it then mitigates
the size of the problem, but also it'll then
shake out the ones who can and can't deal with that particular issue, if that makes sense.
Obviously, we've got our own number we need to look at, but I think it's very manageable for us.
But I think it does sort of structurally support the sector as a whole with that
latest announcement last night that comes out this morning about the 90 % guarantee on the whole sector
for DSG. And also it was made in December.
Well, no, there was a nuance this morning, stroke, last night that actually said that they will then
cover off specifically for the next coming year and then the next three years as well. They did talk about that.
Well, that came out overnight because they obviously had to then
formally say what was going to happen for the forthcoming year.
Is there anything you wish to?
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:21:40
I think just to add then, yeah, I mean, I think the announcement from MHCLG in the final settlement in terms of the
grant funding for DSG deficits will definitely help to alleviate
quite some significant financial stress
devil is still in the details,
so we need to work its way through.
There's still going to be a kind of submission,
but in terms of as a headline,
I mean in a perfect world,
central government should have paid the whole thing,
but not withstanding that,
then it's in a much better place than it could have been
in terms of going through.
So I think that announcement will definitely help
to alleviate some pressure in the system.
May I just ask then, I mean, again, something I've just been shutting to the leader of
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:22:23
council outside on, because my first thoughts when they announced it would be a 90 percent
write off of the high -needs block deficit was, that sounds great, but actually that
means there's 10 percent that then becomes effectively crystallised.
So rather than being part of the statutory override, my assumption is, and I'll just
ask this, because I don't know the answer to it, but my assumption is that the statutory
override will come off.
That 10 percent then has to be crystallised and actually then will start to appear on
councils balance sheets and their management accounts.
So where a council has been prudent, and this one has been prudent, managing what I anticipate
to be something like a four to five million deficit on our high needs block may not be
impossible.
But I imagine there are other councils where managing a 10 % of, in some cases, a far larger
high needs deficit may actually, again, potentially tip them over.
To what extent does the red, amber, and green categorization take into account the vulnerability
of councils when that 10 % is crystallised?
David Skinner - Director of Finance and S151 Officer - 0:23:41
So just to be clear, the statutory override remains until March 28th.
So until that point, then in effect, the grant money will come through, we'll put that into
an unusable reserve that will then compensate for the residual balance that we're left with,
so the 10%, and then it will then kind of go through.
In terms of the assessments, so the red, amber, green will take into account the position
in terms of DSG.
That will become much more transparent in terms of those councils' positions, so fully
except in the point that you make, Councillor Tet,
in terms of the fact that 10 percent of a much larger number
is still a significant figure that people have got to fund.
But then that will become much more visible
in terms of those pressures.
And, you know, we will take account of that
in terms of the assessment.
And equally, we'll know those authorities
that are potentially having to approach MHCLG
in terms of any extra support in terms of that
may well be required.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:24:37
Okay, thank you very much. Do members have any other questions on this paper? No. Okay then.
So, with this being the only paper, before any of that, I would also, following Council Shaw, please do pass on our thanks to everybody who didn't attend the meeting, but have worked on these papers and assurance for the members.
I do think we have a much better level of assurance than we did at the previous meeting. I think we've moved on leaps and bounds and again, thank you so much for expediating all of that work.
So the Audit and Governance Committee is asked to recommend to full council the approval
of the Treasury Management Strategy.
Are members content with that?
Thank you.
Then the Boring Strategy are set out in section 4.
Members content with that?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Three Prudential Indicators set out in sections 3, 4 and 5.
Are members content?
Agreed.
For the removal of the additional requirements when trading with other local authorities,
paragraph 5 .4.
Are members content?
Can I just say for the record, having tested this one, and I have been the wet blanket
on it, I completely understand that, I think that's part of our role as an audit and governance
committee to actually not just roll over to a cabinet member, dare I say that, sorry,
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:25:46
Robert, you know, but actually as a panel of backbenchers to test these things, I am
now reassured by the answers that I've been given by Dave Skinner, and I'm prepared to
support this.
I'm very grateful to him.
Thank you.
Cllr Matthew Walsh - 0:26:01
And five, the annual investment strategy, and members content?
Great.
Thank you.
And six, the minimum revenue provision policy I set out in appendix two, our members content.
Great.
Thank you.
Okay, then that then moves us on to the date of the next meeting, which is the 26th of

4 Date of the next meeting

March here at the Gateway at 10 a .m.
For those who are watching the webcast, thank you very much and good afternoon.