Finance & Resources Select Committee - Thursday 16 April 2026, 2:00pm - Buckinghamshire Council Webcasting

Finance & Resources Select Committee
Thursday, 16th April 2026 at 2:00pm 

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  1. Cllr John Chilver
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  1. Katie Dover - Democratic Services Officer
  2. Cllr John Chilver
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  1. Cllr Chris Poll
  2. Cllr John Chilver
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  1. Cllr Robert Carington
  2. Cllr John Chilver
  3. Cllr Stuart Wilson
  4. Cllr John Chilver
  5. Cllr Robert Carington
  6. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  7. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  8. Cllr John Chilver
  9. Cllr Stuart Wilson
  10. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  11. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  12. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  13. Cllr John Chilver
  14. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  15. Cllr John Chilver
  16. Cllr Martin Tett
  17. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  18. Cllr Martin Tett
  19. Cllr Robert Carington
  20. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  21. Cllr Martin Tett
  22. Cllr Martin Tett
  23. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  24. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  25. Cllr Martin Tett
  26. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  27. Cllr Martin Tett
  28. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  29. Cllr Martin Tett
  30. Cllr Robert Carington
  31. Cllr Martin Tett
  32. Cllr Robert Carington
  33. Cllr Martin Tett
  34. Cllr John Chilver
  35. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  36. Cllr John Chilver
  37. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  38. Cllr John Chilver
  39. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  40. Cllr Stuart Wilson
  41. Cllr John Chilver
  42. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  43. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  44. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  45. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  46. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  47. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  48. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  49. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  50. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  51. Cllr Robert Carington
  52. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  53. Cllr Robert Carington
  54. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  55. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  56. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  57. Cllr John Chilver
  58. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  59. Cllr Stuart Wilson
  60. Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance.
  61. Cllr John Chilver
  62. Cllr Martin Tett
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  1. Cllr John Chilver
  2. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  3. Cllr Martin Tett
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  5. Cllr John Chilver
  6. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  7. Cllr Martin Tett
  8. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  9. Cllr John Chilver
  10. Cllr Chris Poll
  11. Cllr John Chilver
  12. Cllr Stuart Wilson
  13. Cllr Robert Carington
  14. Cllr John Chilver
  15. Cllr Robert Carington
  16. Cllr John Chilver
  17. Cllr Robert Carington
  18. Cllr John Chilver
  19. Cllr Stuart Wilson
  20. Cllr John Chilver
  21. Cllr Robert Carington
  22. Cllr John Chilver
  23. Cllr Andy Huxley
  24. Cllr Robert Carington
  25. Cllr John Chilver
  26. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  27. Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman
  28. Cllr John Chilver
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  1. Cllr Martin Tett
  2. Cllr John Chilver
  3. Cllr Martin Tett
  4. Cllr John Chilver
  5. Webcast Finished

Cllr John Chilver - 0:00:00
Good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the Finance and Resources Select Committee.
Welcome to all members, officers and any members of the public who are watching the webcast online.
I would just remind members to turn the microphone on every time they speak to ensure that the webcast picks up your comments.

1 Apologies for absence / Changes in membership

So we'll start with apologies for absence and changes in membership. Thank you.
Thank you Chairman, we have apologies from Councillor Dev Dillon and from Officers Elspeth O 'Neill and David Skinner.
Katie Dover - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:36
And Councillor Caroline Cornell is here, a substitute for Dev Dillon. Thank you.
Thank you very much indeed.

2 Declarations of Interest

Cllr John Chilver - 0:00:43
Declarations of interest, does any member wish to declare any interests?
Not at the moment, thank you very much indeed. Minutes?
Yes.
Just that agenda item five is incorrectly dated on the header page.
Cllr Chris Poll - 0:01:04
Cllr John Chilver - 0:01:07
Thank you for raising that point.
We will ensure that that is correct.

3 Minutes

We have the minutes of the last meeting, which is the 26th of February.
Any comments or corrections needed for those minutes?
Can we accept those as an accurate record of meeting?
Yes, those are agreed.
Thank you very much indeed.

4 Public Questions

We don't have any public questions, so I think we can move straight on to the main substantive

5 IT Strategy 2025-2030

item on this agenda, which is the IT strategy.
And we are joined by Councillor Robert Carrington, the Cabinet Member for Resources, Sarah Murphy -Brookman,
the Corporate Director for Resources, and Sarah Barnes of the IT Service.
So welcome to you all and I'll ask Councillor Carrington to introduce this item.
Thank you.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:02:22
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Pleasure to be back here.
So this item, if you sort of cast your mind back to last year, this follows the paper we brought on the 17th of November regarding the ICT and ORRA programme,
where, if you remember, it was mentioned we are at the stage where we have finally consolidated the five legacy council systems into one,
which is complete, and we would be bringing
the new five -year IT strategy, which is this document
which you have in front of you.
Very briefly to describe the strategy,
it covers five strategic pillars,
which can be found on page 19 of your pack,
which are, of course that's right in the way,
unified governance, architecture and delivery,
harmonising integrated applications,
unified digital data analytics and AI,
optimise infrastructure and operations,
and foundational cyber security.
And then there's sort of a breakdown of the work
which will go on in there
and how we will achieve those particular pillars.
And very sort of important to note
that this is all part of a journey.
I mean, that is a phrase which has been used
a lot in the past, and I apologise in advance
that I will continue to use that phrase.
This is part of it, and we, it is a continuous process.
And so over the next five years of this strategy,
we will aim to align all of our IT services and investments
to our corporate objectives
ensuring the technology directly enables our strategic and operational priorities.
To really highlight scope of that, again, I mentioned,
And we brought the five previous legacy organisations into one.
The infrastructure work has been done for that.
And we're now on the data work and the integration, which is always continuous.
And there's been a shift in how IT now sort of functions within the organisation.
In the past, it used to be a support service.
We are trying to evolve from that into more of a strategic
partner rather than the sort of last resort or first resort.
We also harmonise the technology landscape delivering
efficient reliable and intuitive services that enhances the
experience for employees and residents.
I mean, to bring this into context,
we have about 800 employees and residents in the world.
application and systems within the council, and these are continuously being reviewed,
whether they are still fit for purpose, and can we get more out of them, which also fits into the
next point, which is optimising our IT operating model, so we can deliver measurable outcomes,
strengthen service performance, support service transformation. This obviously involves the use
of AI, and as also key is protecting critical assets, maintaining strong security, high
availability and robust preparedness for any major incidents and system failures.
Obviously from what I can say on the cybersecurity front, that we are in a world where this is
very live threat and we must always be alert and use all tools to be secure and use and
obviously the importance of training.
And I think in every single meeting I'm in front of you I will again say, Boxfish, very
important, please do your training.
I think this, I think I have done that in every meeting.
I will continue.
But again, this is all part of a journey.
And the one other thing I'd like to highlight is on page 18 where we stress the transition
to a new way of working and you see there's the drivers for change and the ambition.
These are not just random words picked out of random.
These are the results of our staff feedback.
We also have our staff survey and there was a section on the IT strategy.
And this is the direct feedback from staff.
So there is just wanted that all highlighted.
So I now hand over to Sarah, the two Sarahs, if there's anything further you want to add.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:06:57
If not, then we can move straight to questions.
Councillor Wilson.
Cllr Stuart Wilson - 0:07:09
Thank you Chairman and thank you to everyone for a comprehensive report.
My questions are probably a little bit in terms of background,
Sorry, it's the how is this going to work because there's both an IT department but
a bigger cultural shift from the organisation. I think the cabinet member said, you know,
we want to move this forward into more of a self -help model and for the IT team to be
there as a strategic partner. So what additional work will be undertaken with service functions
in terms of enabling them from a cultural point of view.
That's my first question.
My second question is in terms of what additional resources have you identified
or required from a programme management office,
because clearly this is corporate -wide.
It will touch every part of our operations.
and how will this be resourced? And the third one is whilst there is a sort of
timeline, what is the critical map of what has to happen by when and
what are the risks facing the council if we don't hit? Because there will be
certain points where if we don't get certain aspects of the backbone, the spine of the system in place,
or certain things don't happen, and then there'll be other aspects.
Once you've gone beyond that point, it's a point of no return.
So I'm not clear, exactly clear as by the middle of next year, we have to have achieved this,
and therefore these following things.
And what risks are associated with that.
So, and I'm probably wearing a little bit
of my audit governance hat on
in terms of from a risk management point of view
on that as well.
So, three different areas, but I think obviously
all related to the context of this programme.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:09:22
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:09:23
Thank you very much for those questions, Councillor Wilson.
And sort of addressing obviously the first one,
So, regard to how this will actually work and the overall cultural shift, yeah, no,
that is a very important key part of this.
And I think, as I mentioned in my opening speech, we, once again, on page 19, there
were the comments there from staff reflected in, I mean, staff have been involved in this
from the beginning and are feeding into it at all levels.
I know this is, so as you mentioned to me, this is one which is every single CMT.
This is discussed.
It is, it permanently all levels of the organisation.
There are endless meetings and discussions on this and the feedback from everyone is
being included in this.
And I said that this is a journey.
I mean this is going to be longer than five years.
We, there will always be evolving things.
there are probably things we haven't even thought of yet,
which will need to be factored in.
But the thing is, the conversations are happening
and people are being listened to,
and that is being, I hope, is being reflected in this.
Point two on the DASH additional resource.
I know it mentions, obviously,
the amount of savings being required,
which doesn't quite, is slightly the opposite
of what you have been asking.
But this feeds into the overall, in fact, the overall financial point of this and why
we're doing this.
And those savings will enable us to move resource within, because particularly with the AI front,
that will free up staff time who can then be put into other areas.
That is one aspect.
And then the other, the key one, which I have mentioned before and is mentioned in here,
is the ERP, so we're going through the process there
of reviewing that.
I mean, for those watching, ERP is our SAP system,
which is basically is the, I think the exact word is,
it's not quite the spine, but it is the nervous system
of the organisation, which is absolutely key,
and we're at the stage of refreshing it.
And on the final one, on the timeline,
I think Sarah will probably best, timeline and risks.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:11:49
that one. Thank you, Councillor Carrington. If I can,
I will add a couple of points as well. So Councillor Wilson, on the cultural shift
piece, it is a really important point you make about that.
Because to date the work, the body of work that has been happening within the IT service
has been about our infrastructure. So this was the physical assets.
and now this strategy, although physical assets infrastructure continues to be
very important, we need to refresh them and so keep refreshing them, this is now
much more focused on our applications and our systems. And so one of the first
pieces of work that we've done is actually to consolidate all of our tier
one systems into the IT service so that the IT service has complete visibility
of the system, they will work with the service in terms of contract management, they understand
and will have responsibility for optimising the use of that system. So it's actually opening
up conversations about there is capability in system A that another team might not know
about which would actually make a big difference. So we're looking to sweat our core assets
much more efficiently than we have done before. And CMT are really supportive of this cultural
shift of that, of consolidating down and utilising those applications to maximum efficiency and
effectiveness. And that will, we will continue doing that piece of work across the five years
to make sure that when we get to the end of, well it's a continuous piece, but to make
sure that we have the right systems in place that are optimised and giving us best value
for money. We hadn't been in a place to be able to do that piece of work so there's definitely
a cultural shift on that and the application strategy will be built out of what does the
organisation require and then it will have within it as well some of the core principles
at for example security by design. So that was probably the first thing to say that cultural
shift is both coming from within the IT service but being driven from CMT down as well. And
all of that work is happening within directorates and services. The second point is where we
need additional resource. We've got our service improvement board and our service improvement
team. So we were able to ask for resource out of that team where it's required. And
that has never proved to be, it's not that there's,
clearly there are limitations on the amount of resource,
but it hasn't been a problem previously.
So I don't see that there's going to be an issue with that.
And in terms of the timeline and the critical map,
I think all of these roadmaps will run together in parallel.
So it's not as if one roadmap has more primacy than another.
So I don't know whether Sarah,
with the same thing you want to add.
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:14:56
As we look to rationalise the applications,
we'll be supporting less, and that's the part that also frees up staff.
So supporting 700 applications means that we're patching,
we're looking at the security, we're looking at them working
all the time of 700 applications.
Some of those applications will have very few people using them
because they've come from legacy organisations.
So it's about optimising them, rationalising them down,
getting more people using the same application,
getting the data in one place. If data is in less places we're reporting on less
data so again risk is reduced, the amount of work that we're doing is reduced. It's
about making sure that we're pushing back to the staff things that they can
do for themselves, so self -service in the right places and it's about getting
demand management right. So we're playing back to the business, the demand that
they're asking us to do, attaching a return on investment to it and then
asking them do they really want us to do that piece of work. Sometimes we might
get a request for the same report or slightly different report, should I say, from 10 different
people rather than doing a single report and having that validated by the business. So
it's a much better alignment of demand from the business and playing back to the real
owners the work that we've been required to do as well.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:16:12
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:16:13
Cllr Stuart Wilson - 0:16:13
Councillor Wilson. Thank you. If I could just play out what
what I've heard. I think the most important thing from my point of view is I do think
something of this scale does need a formal programme management office, having been involved
in this and the type of projects before, and I'm not quite hearing that that is the case.
So the formality of that I think is really important as opposed to an as and when. Equally
I think I can totally understand having been through some of these programmes in
former lives, staff want plug -and -play but the reality is what they're going to
be asked to do is co -production and that is significant. They're going to have to
dedicate additional resource and time over and above what they normally do in
their day jobs, particularly when you're taking something away that is familiar
and asking them to replace it and that co -production code is designed. So I
don't underestimate the cultural shift required and I would suggest whether
it's top -down from CMT or in from IT, it also there is always an element of
bottom -up and I think that aspect is is also equally important so I would be
interested to see how that develops and I think the the the question I asked
about critical path I'm still not sure I I think at what point where you turn
something off and turn something else in its replacement on again becomes quite
important in you know those of us that have the joy of going through SAP
processes or replacements will understand the consequences of that and
that's really so I'm I don't think I really heard a clear answer and perhaps
Chairman I don't know how you want to take this forward because you know we
may not necessarily get these but you know I think this is one of those things
we're going to come back to time and time again in this committee anyway. But my suggestion
is that some of these points are considered and reflected in the minutes and the cabinet
member and the SARAs and if I could be so informal perhaps take that away and think
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:18:53
about that. I can confirm though we have a full programme
office in IT so we have project managers aligned and programme managers aligned to this. It is
a programme of work that feeds up to resources SLT but I think it's also quite important
to come back and show your progress. The ERP programme is being managed separately.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:19:12
Yeah, so the ERP programme services, it is a programme in its own right given the scale and
magnitude, it is not, if you go into an ERP programme thinking it's just an IT replacement,
it's all going to end very badly. It is all about the operating model for the organisation
and it's all about change management. So that will emerge as we go through the next probably
six months. So we're doing the piece of work at the moment that essentially says this is
the out of the box processes for all of the transactions that you would expect to see
for HR, for procurement, for finance and so on. Is there any reason why we can't take
standard and we're really going to test that. That then allows us to then evaluate in the
market what it is that we want against that functionality and then we will then come forward
to cabinet with a proposal of this is what we are proposing to buy against our requirements
and these are the evaluation outcomes. But that has a full programme around it. It
also has, we have a critical friend, an external critical friend, because clearly the last
time we did this within the council was 30 years ago, we are not specialists in this,
So we have somebody who is an organisation who is walking with us, but it's our programme,
it is our decisions as a council collectively about the choices that we make in terms of
what we procure next, but we have to have somebody whose, this is their core job and
specialism.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:21:02
Just on that Sarah, I was wondering if you could give us an update on the Aura programme,
How far are we through that now?
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:21:11
So the AURA programme was formally closed down on the 31st of March, so that was the
precursor for what we knew was coming as the ERP programme.
So as you'll remember, this was about us getting better organisational understanding of our
processes, mapping the key ones out, making improvements where we could but not investing
too much and also starting to do some of the, we're doing some work on reporting. One because
our reporting capability is not great at the moment and whatever happens it's going to
be with SAP for a number of years yet and secondly what it also allows us to do is to
actually understand all of our different data points as well because if you're putting in
a business warehouse to be able to report out from,
you have to understand all of the data that is going in.
So actually it's serving quite a few purposes.
It's making sure that we've got good maturity
and understanding of our data and how it flows in.
And it will also produce the reports that are required
by managers and indeed CMT
to be able to help run the organisation.
Thank you. Councillor Tet.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:22:31
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:22:38
I'm on. Thank you. I have a number of questions as well. If I can just start. Risks, I probably
just skimmed over it too quickly. Can you just direct me to the page that has all the
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:23:04
So you have missed the key risks, they are not actually on here, so each of the projects
will have the key risks.
Sorry, I have or haven't missed the key risks.
They're not on there, you're correct.
They're not on there, right.
So I'm just a bit surprised for something of this magnitude and significance coming
before this committee, that we don't have anywhere listed the key risks, given how fundamental
of this is to both the savings that are being put forward
and the transformation that's proposed.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:23:31
I've been involved a little bit in IT in the past
in part of previous lives.
So I put that there and I'm gonna ask my second question
which was hinged on the answers to the first,
which is could you describe to me
your risk management process,
both at a strategic and operational level?
Because I would imagine something of this significance
as it goes forward, there will be a number of risks and you will need to be responsive to them,
aware of them, responsive to them. So maybe you could just outline how for the risks that are not
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:24:11
described, you have a process in hand for managing them. Just on the risk point, they are on page 23
under key observations, challenges rather than risks.
Yeah, that's true. I did see those.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:24:25
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:24:29
I will just say this, I'm not trying to be a smart -ass on this, sorry, we're in public,
I'm not trying to be over -clever on this, but I do think something of this significance,
there really ought to be detail on here of key risks before this committee and indeed
information on how key risk would be managed. So I leave that point at that.
But I would like to understand the risk management process that you'll go through for identifying
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:24:53
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:24:53
those risks. And they'll exist at different levels. You know, there'll be big sort of
meta risks, you know, and then there'll be almost operational risks. And I'd just like
to understand a little bit about your management processes, whether it's at CMT, whether it's
cabinet, whether it's down at service level, how is that process going to be managed?
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:25:13
So thank you for that observation and you're right, it would have been a fuller strategy
if it had had the risks in it. So I can assure the committee that we have
within resources and within IT a full risk management approach which aligns with the
organisational standards. So we've been in front of only relatively recently risk management
group which is a subgroup of audit and governance. We have an IT strategic
risk that sits on the sort of the tier one risk register if you like that is
primarily concerned with cyber and ensuring that our IT environment is safe
and secure. Below that is a risk register for IT which will comprise lots
of different risks that they IT manage on essentially on a daily basis. So there will
be things that come on and off. So there have been for example an instance where BT, bless
them, no sorry it wasn't BT, it wasn't our roadwork team, somebody cut through one of
our telephony cables into our offices. So we have two telephony cables coming in, one
as a backup, so then we were reduced down to one, so we had no backup in terms of data
flowing in and out of the organisation. That was immediately put on onto the risk register
as a risk that we were managing and all of the implications of that and how we were mitigating
it. That was then, as that programme or project went through, then that eventually came off
when the cable was reinstalled.
So the IT team, I think actually are exemplars on this
in terms of recognising risks that happen on a,
if something like that happens on a sort of daily basis,
that's put onto the risk register
versus those very significant strategic risks as well.
Yeah, thank you.
Sorry, just so I'm clear then this,
cause I'm not on the risk management committee,
I am on all the governance.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:27:24
So, the risk management committee has done a deep dive on the methodology for managing
risk on this programme, is that correct?
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:27:31
So the risk management group have done a deep dive on the resources methodology for managing
risk which includes IT. It hasn't done one on this strategy but it's done it on, which
included IT, it's done a deep dive on our approach.
I just think given the significance of this programme and the investment in it, I personally
would like to see a little bit more confidence that a member body has actually undertaken
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:28:02
that analysis. And I can see Mr Wilson nodding to my left, so I may be on the right track.
May I just move on to another couple of questions, if that's okay, Cham? I don't want to hog
the meeting at all. One of the things I'm very aware of with a limited background in
this area is technology changes. There's constant change in technology. If you'd asked about
AI five years ago, I think most people wouldn't have had the faintest idea what the term was.
If you'd asked about cloud computing 10 years ago, nobody would have known what it was.
So, very few people would have known what it was. How do you keep enough flexibility
and responsiveness in this, which is a relatively long -term strategy,
that actually it becomes adaptable both to new technology, but also obsolescence
of key technology that you're depending on.
So it's that flexibility and if you like horizon scanning,
not jumping at the first thing that comes up,
but actually assessing it,
understanding its implications and so on.
Can you talk us through a little bit
about how that is managed within your programme?
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:29:08
So we've just created a technical design authority team.
We didn't have one in the council before
and we've just appointed an enterprise architect
and that key team, their role is to actually look at new technology as it comes out.
Also as well, I think it's one of the pages, it talks about the fact that we will each
quarter be reviewing the roadmaps because we're looking at adopting capability, not
technology.
So again, the technology at the time will be assessed for what that capability is we
require.
We want to get away from buying a SAP system or a system by somebody.
We want to buy technology that is fit for purpose.
Obviously most of the work that we're looking to undertake has a design phase and part of
that design phase is to be really clear about the capabilities and the outcomes we want
to achieve and matching that, working with our suppliers that we've got to make sure
that we get the best technology that's out there.
It's also about making sure that we're in the right contracts so that when we can take
the best of the technology as it comes.
And that's why one of the ones that we're moving to as well from one of our WAN points
of view is being able to take one locally, making sure we go direct to the internet,
not come back into the core, so we actually get that best use where we want it in the
council.
So as part of the commercial negotiations, you'll make sure that there's enough flexibility,
so as technology changes, capabilities change, you have the flexibility to morph what you're
doing and move those suppliers.
You won't get tied into a particular technology or a supplier that makes the strategy inflexible.
Is that a fair summary?
That's a very good summary.
Thank you very much.
And I have one last question, Cheven, probably for you, if I might say so.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:30:49
I couldn't find much on the costs within this paper.
It may well be not the intention, again, a bit like risk, not to include it in this paper.
And I'm assuming that there has been a pretty good deep dive, certainly by, you know, the
cabinet member, I'm sure, on the relative costs and benefits involved in this.
There's a significant expenditure in this programme over a period of time.
Lots of savings promulgated on them, but certainly there's nothing in this paper,
either in the public or commercial section, unless I've missed it again, that actually
details that financial case.
But it may well have been considered Chairman by yourself separately on another occasion.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:31:36
I mean the quick response to that is linked to the MTFP. Particularly pages 135 and 141
go to provide more information linked into this.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:31:50
Again, I'm not asking you to do it now, don't get me wrong, but I would just like confidence
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:31:56
that besides the Executive, because we are a scrutiny committee effectively, and one
the constitutional roles the council has is a scrutiny role.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:32:03
I'd just like to be confident that there has been sufficient scrutiny of the business case
for this so that we can see that it's a robust and valuable programme.
So I don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether that falls under your domain or not.
I mean, the initial response to that, as mentioned, is join the MTF.
Key process, as you would know, better than anyone around this table.
There is a lot of intense scrutiny of every single aspect of it.
this has gone through that including obviously coming in front of this
committee during budget scrutiny week it has been joined well yeah budget
scrutiny week it has been looked at extensively the tyres have been ticked a
lot. I'm not just be really clear I'm not doubting that you know there is a robust
business case I'm sure you would have made sure of that I just think
constitutionally there ought to have been and there ought to be a process of
scrutiny of that business case. The MTP process is not really the venue for doing that. And
I'm very comfortable if the Chairman can say that it's either been done elsewhere or that
it will at some future date come before the relevant committee. I'd just like to ensure
that constitutionally that scrutiny does take place or has taken place.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:33:15
I haven't really got much to add to what Councillor Carrington has said. I think the budget scrutiny
process was where this was mainly assessed. I do remember we queried the amount that's
being provided for the new ERP system, for example. I don't know, Sarah, if there's anything
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:33:42
else to add on that. I think what you've said, Chair, is absolutely
correct and likewise, Councillor Carrington. The scrutiny of the finances that underpin
this strategy were considered at the budget scrutiny process.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:33:59
Thank you. I do have some questions about the savings on page 21 of the PAC. They seem
to be very much back loaded to the last two years of the MTFB period, 28 to 30. And it
So just as savings in IT operation costs, I'm just wondering if it's possible to get a little bit more on that
and where these savings are going to come from.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:34:30
Yes, absolutely. So within the MTFP process, we looked at, the committee looked at the savings
and they were, they're spread across a number of different areas and they are related both
to automation and AI within different aspects of the IT service. So we're thinking about
the automation and AI tools that are available to help us in terms of our service desk, the
way that we manage data. There are also a number of service reviews that will still
need to take place within some of the teams within IT, so looking at business intelligence,
the school support service team, and also the SAP systems team, dependent on what the
outcome of that programme is and what we decide to procure. The savings are deliberately backloaded
because of the work that has to take place to enable the savings to come out, so they
are primarily in year three of the of the MTFP and I think that's probably all I can
Cllr John Chilver - 0:35:54
say at this point. Thank you, I think that's helpful. Councillor Wilson. Sorry I don't
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:35:57
Cllr Stuart Wilson - 0:35:59
want to jump in if there are other members who want to go but I feel Chairman we would
benefit from a session, a confidential session where we can go through the risk
manager. I did sit on the risk management group review but it was of the entire
resources directorate and so the amount of time that could be allocated to
each and every area of the entire resources directorate obviously was
somewhat limited because we do it at a directorate level. So I do believe that
it would be beneficial to go through that because I asked about the critical
path and risk and Councillor Tetz done the same. Equally you know we had an hour
or so on the resources entire resources portfolio at MTFP we cannot possibly go
through business cases you know what we're looking for there is overall risk
for the budget and MTFP rather than individual project levels.
And I think on something of this scale, it does deserve a more detailed deep dive.
And so I do think that we need a follow -on session in confidence
because there's clearly a number of matters here that...
And then we can get into things like contracts and service agreements and bits and pieces
like that.
So I do think these are, you said we've got one item on the agenda, but it's a really,
really important item.
And it's attached to some very big savings, costs to achieve, and it touches every part
of the organisation.
So I do think we need a follow -up.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:37:51
We are having a session on the work plan after this, so we can include your suggestions and
your ideas in that to take forward for the future work plan for this committee.
Councillor Crabtree.
Thank you, Chairman.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:38:05
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 0:38:08
I can see on page 13 you have got some measures of success set out, which I believe relate
to how this will be judged as being successful once the project is completed.
Obviously it's an enormous project that's being undertaken.
And there was a question raised yesterday in council about timings, specifically in
relation to the adoption of one uniform, I think, in the Amersham area.
But I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about how success is being judged
in terms of the delivery of this project and the timings in particular and when we can
expect to see some of the streamlined services coming into play. Thank you.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:38:47
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:38:51
So each project as it's been delivered will have its own success criteria. So
for example there is a I think on the service on the roadmap for unified
governance architecture and delivery there are some key metrics for each of
the individual ones. So each programme has a number of projects that are being
delivered from them, each of those projects roll up into their own benefits
so depended upon the area that's impacted during that time the benefits
will be seen either by a saving, by a resource saving, a resource cost or an
improved service, does that make sense? So you'd have to roll them up I think
at the end of the day.
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 0:39:32
Yes I wonder if a bit like Councillor Wilson's
saying that this is one of those things it's very difficult to get an impression
just looking at the overall scheme whether or not it's being successful and
whether it's achieving what it's aiming to achieve and whether we actually do
need to go down perhaps into a little bit more detail for some of the largest
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:39:50
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:39:52
projects such as as one uniform. So can I just clarify so for example I'm just I
have to be looking at page 27 harmonised and integrated applications so we've got
they're set out the the deliverable the benefit what the metrics will be and
the delivery is. You're saying that you want more than that.
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 0:40:10
I'm just saying it's great to have those targets but how are we going to know whether those
have been met or not and are we going to get any feedback on whether it's being delivered
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:40:20
successfully or otherwise? So it will come back every year. This was
part of, undoubtedly when you come to the forward plan of work for this committee, this
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:40:28
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:40:29
absolutely would be an annual report back to you. Maybe you'd like it every six months
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:40:35
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:40:36
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 0:40:37
given the scale of it? If it's only just starting now and this is the the
timeline that we can expect to see then yes it'd be great to see it maybe in a
year's time or whenever is appropriate to come back to this committee. Thank you.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:40:48
Thank you. Any other members?
Cllr John Chilver - 0:40:50
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:40:58
Councillor Wilson. I just wanted to follow on from the point about you're
Cllr Stuart Wilson - 0:41:00
working with a critical friend organisation which I think is great. One of the thoughts
I had when I went through this is clearly other unitaries have gone through unitarisation
and combinations of district councils and county councils before us and whether or not
you're taking any learnings from those organisations as well.
Sarah Barnes - Head of Customer Delivery and Governance. - 0:41:24
We're constantly talking to a number of other councils, we're constantly talking to our
suppliers. We work with central government on our maturity assessment on things like
cyber security, so we're constantly taking those feeds and that advice and guidance on
what other people are doing.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:41:39
Thank you. Any other comments or questions from members of the committee? If not, then
I think we can now move on to the next item on the agenda, which is the future work plan.
You have the work programme both for this year, this is on page 31, and indicative items for
next year, 26 to 27. I think there are some additional topics that
needs to be added into next year's work programme.
One is property and assets.
As I mentioned earlier, we were due to have a paper on that today.
But it's been deferred and is proposed to come to the first meeting in the new council
year in July.
Another area which I think would be useful would be legal services and business continuity,
which falls under the remit of this committee and also of course the update
on IT which will be an annual report but open the discussion to the committee if
there's anything else you feel should be included. Councillor Tet.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:43:05
I just wanted to build on the the two points that came up between Councillor
Wilson and myself. One is about risk and risk management which may well be the
purlieu of all it in governance. I'm not trying to trample on their feet at all. I just think
we need to have had a member scrutiny look at the risk management process. And the second

6 Work Programme

is about the business case underpinning this. And again, I just want to reiterate, I'm not
doubting the cabinet member whatsoever on this, but if anything ever did go wrong, one
of the first things any review would say is where was scrutiny? Why wasn't this properly
scrutinised. And I am just fearful that we would be at risk ourselves if it
wasn't, you know, there wasn't a clear audit trail that showed that we had
scrutinised as a committee the business case for this. So we understood what the
costs were, what the savings were, where they accrued from, and how deliverable
those savings were. If that's not our remit then I will back off, but I just
worry about what it would look like to an external party looking at this if anything
did go wrong and there'd be no scrutiny of the process, of the business case.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:44:17
I don't know if any of you would be able to respond to that and maybe we could add that
into next year's programme.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:44:33
So in terms of the roadmaps, this is a summarised version that is in front of the committee
here as part of this strategy, so we can certainly bring back the fuller information that sits
behind this that creates the business case for these deliverables, the benefits that
been identified, the metrics and so on, and then how they then roll through into
the savings, which I think is what you're asking for, Councillor Terp.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:45:04
Again, I'm not trying to hog this from my side at all. I just think if there's a
programme here that has a cost in total and has a series of subcomponents which
individually cost something, and then there are deemed savings that come from
at various points, that there ought to have been an external scrutiny beyond the executive
of whether those are realistic assumptions and what the risks are associated with each
of them. If what Sarah's proposing delivers that, then I'm perfectly happy.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:45:38
Cllr John Chilver - 0:45:41
Did you want to come back on that? Can I just clarify, are you talking about
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:45:43
the whole programme or are you talking about ERP?
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:45:49
I'm talking about the paper we have before us.
Yes, okay, that's right. I just wanted to clarify.
An overall programme which identifies a level of savings.
And if the MTP is based upon assumptions which have those savings in them, I just think it's
important that we understand what the costs are, what the variability in the costs are,
what the various cost elements are,
and how those savings accrue so that we can,
with our hands and our hearts, if there is ever an audit,
say, yep, we looked at those, kicked the tyres,
all looked good, we monitored it as it went along,
it all looked fine, sorry it hit the rocks,
but that was unforeseeable, or hopefully,
was delivered successfully on time,
on budget, and to specification.
That's fine.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:46:34
Thank you.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:46:36
Councillor Paul, I think, was next.
Cllr Chris Poll - 0:46:42
Thank you, Chairman. And kind of building on what Councillor Teck has said, I just wonder
if at our October meeting we can have a benchmarking of achievements thus far to the plan. I appreciate
that much of it is back loaded to the end of the project. But if rather than a full
six monthly audit of where we are, just a report if that were possible
that we are keeping to target, that would in my view be useful.
And then if we were to require further information then that could be let into the February meeting, if time allows.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:47:36
Thank you. Councillor Wilson.
Cllr Stuart Wilson - 0:47:43
Yeah, I just wanted to clarify on the property item, Chairman, will that cover all aspects of our property functions?
So obviously we have some commercial estates, we have some other estates, we've separated out aspects of maintenance.
so I'm just mindful that it's a very broad area
or where the specific elements.
Previously this committee has had, say, deep dives
on the commercial estate, but it hasn't necessarily
talked about the rest of the estate.
So I just want to have a sense of what you had in mind
or whether it will be a comprehensive review,
because obviously we split some responsibilities
about a year ago, yeah?
So, it was just really clarification whether it will be everything or just aspects.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:48:33
I'd like to see everything, but maybe it's better to do that in two chunks for making
it easier for the cabinet member to focus.
No, thank you.
I mean, as you're probably aware, better than me.
I mean, this is obviously a historic ask from the scrutiny committee.
I think the specific request at the time, I think over 12 months ago, was an overview
of how we manage our assets.
I mean particularly sort of the relationship with our property Asian
Carte de Jonas. From what I understand the plan is that we'll be giving an overview
of the current approach to managing property and assets so I think that
would cover everything you've been saying. I mean it's the approach and yeah
Cllr John Chilver - 0:49:14
we hear your feedback once we deliver the item.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:49:15
Cllr John Chilver - 0:49:17
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:49:19
Would that include a review of the change that Councillor Wilson referred to in terms of
responsibilities across the different services?
Yeah, that would be covered in the overview.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:49:33
Cllr Stuart Wilson - 0:49:34
And also perhaps where your thinking has got to on devolution of any assets?
Cllr John Chilver - 0:49:40
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:49:42
That's obviously linked into work of cabinets, which obviously without breaching any things there.
I know there will be more information on that at some point, but I think we can closer to
the time expand on that.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:50:00
Councillor Huxley.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Andy Huxley - 0:50:07
I was going to add to that whether that covered land as well as property.
Yeah, I mean property and assets.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:50:13
I mean land is a asset class so yeah no definitely would.
Cllr John Chilver - 0:50:20
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 0:50:27
Councillor Crabtree. Yeah I was just going to ask I know in October we had spans and
layers confidential addendum really to the people plan update and I wondered
whether the next year's people plan update would also include that
information or whether that was a one -off. Yep we can include that.
Ms. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - 0:50:44
Cllr John Chilver - 0:50:45
I can't see any more hands any other members and so I think that brings that
item to a close and in fact that is the end of this meeting in public session we
going to go into private session afterwards. So the last item on the
agenda is the date and time of the next meeting and that will be confirmed at

7 Date and time of the next meeting

the Annual Council meeting on the 20th of May. So this being the last meeting of
this current year I'd just like to thank members and officers for all the
contributions they've made. I think we've had a very successful year particularly
the budget scrutiny process so thank you all very much for your contributions.
and Chairman, can I just thank you, by the way? I think you've chaired this committee
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:51:41
incredibly well over the past year, and I'd also like to thank all the various Cabinet
members who've appeared before us as well for their time and their patience with our
questioning. Thank you very much indeed, that's very much
Cllr John Chilver - 0:51:55
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:51:58
appreciated. And of course the strategic officers who've
Cllr John Chilver - 0:52:01
supported them. Yes. So thank you again and enjoy the rest of the day and thank you to
anybody who's watching us online on the webcast.