Standards and General Purposes Committee - Thursday 23 April 2026, 2:00pm - Buckinghamshire Council Webcasting

Standards and General Purposes Committee
Thursday, 23rd April 2026 at 2:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Jackson Ng
  2. Cllr Jackson Ng
  3. Cllr Jackson Ng
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  1. Mr Tom Fowler
  2. Cllr Jackson Ng
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  1. Mr Tom Fowler
  2. Cllr Frank Mahon
  3. Mr Tom Fowler
  4. Cllr Jackson Ng
  5. Cllr Kelly Thornton
  6. Mr Tom Fowler
  7. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  8. Cllr Jackson Ng
  9. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  10. Cllr Jackson Ng
  11. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  12. Cllr Jackson Ng
  13. Cllr Kelly Thornton
  14. Cllr Jackson Ng
  15. Cllr Martin Tett
  16. Cllr Jackson Ng
  17. Cllr Tim Dixon
  18. Cllr Jackson Ng
  19. Cllr Phil Gomm
  20. Cllr Jackson Ng
  21. Cllr Frank Mahon
  22. Cllr Kelly Thornton
  23. Cllr Jackson Ng
  24. Cllr Martin Tett
  25. Cllr Jackson Ng
  26. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  27. Cllr Jackson Ng
  28. Cllr Frank Mahon
  29. Cllr Jackson Ng
  30. Cllr Tim Dixon
  31. Cllr Jackson Ng
  32. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  33. Cllr Frank Mahon
  34. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  35. Cllr Jackson Ng
  36. Cllr Phil Gomm
  37. Cllr Jackson Ng
  38. Cllr Martin Tett
  39. Cllr Jackson Ng
  40. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  41. Cllr Jackson Ng
  42. Cllr Kelly Thornton
  43. Cllr Jackson Ng
  44. Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman
  45. Cllr Jackson Ng
  46. Cllr Tim Dixon
  47. Cllr Jackson Ng
  48. Cllr Wendy Matthews
  49. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  50. Chris Ward - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer
  51. Cllr Jackson Ng
  52. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  53. Cllr Jackson Ng
  54. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  55. Cllr Jackson Ng
  56. Cllr Frank Mahon
  57. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  58. Cllr Jackson Ng
  59. Cllr Phil Gomm
  60. Cllr Jackson Ng
  61. Cllr Martin Tett
  62. Cllr Jackson Ng
  63. Chris Ward - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer
  64. Cllr Jackson Ng
  65. Cllr Kelly Thornton
  66. Cllr Jackson Ng
  67. Cllr John Chilver
  68. Cllr Jackson Ng
  69. Tom Fowler - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer
  70. Cllr Jackson Ng
  71. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  72. Cllr John Chilver
  73. Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer
  74. Cllr Jackson Ng
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  1. Tom Fowler - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer
  2. Cllr Jackson Ng
  3. Cllr Frank Mahon
  4. Cllr Jackson Ng
  5. Cllr John Chilver
  6. Cllr Jackson Ng
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  1. Cllr Phil Gomm
  2. Cllr Jackson Ng
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  5. Cllr Kelly Thornton
  6. Cllr Jackson Ng
  7. Webcast Finished

Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:00
Well, ladies and gentlemen, committee members and members of the public, welcome to today's
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:15
Standard and General Purposes Committee. First of all, I'd like to welcome Councillor Martin
Tett, being the latest member of this committee. Welcome.
My pleasure, Mr. Chairman. It's good to be here amongst such an illustrious group of
fellow colleagues.
Thank you.
Apologies.
Any apologies?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:31
Apologies from Councillor Karen Dixon.

1 Apologies

Thank you.
The second agenda item today is the minutes

2 Minutes

Mr Tom Fowler - 0:00:39
from the 16th of October.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:40
That was quite some time ago.
Do Councillors colleagues have any comments,
amendments and views on it?
Well, happy for me to sign it.
Thank you.
Third agenda item, declarations of interests.

3 Declarations of Interest

I'm going to kick off by saying I'm a member of Beckons Hill Town Council, which is a parish
council.
Any other colleagues?
I'm a member of Amersham Town Council.
She's a town council.
A member of Elsbury Town Council.
Thank you.
Councillor Dixon?
I also read town council as well.
Councillor Mahan?
A member of Steeper Clayton Parish Council.
Thank you.
Councillor Gumbel?
Member of Winsletown Council.
Thank you. Councillor Matthews?
Member of Ivers Parish Council.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Right, that's quick.
And agenda item number four, really.

4 Annual Review of Member Code of Conduct Complaints 2025/26

This is our annual review
of the Code of Conduct complaints for 2025, 2026.
As we started this year,
officers told us that this is what was coming down the line.
I'm going to firstly invite officers to summarise it for us and then Vice Chair to then lead
in discussions about it.
Tom, thank you.
Thank you, Chairman.
Mr Tom Fowler - 0:02:04
So the report in front of you sets out the Code of Conduct complaints received by the
Management Officer for the 2025 to 26 municipal year.
It lists the processes we follow and includes statistics and figures about the complaints
and breakdown anonymized of each complaint which are listed in the appendices.
Those that are highlighted in grey are the ones that have been closed and the one in
white, which are four in the parish council section, are still open.
Just to update you on those complaints, they've reached stage one.
They will relate to the same council and the same subject matter, and we're awaiting the
formal written response after we've contacted them.
So you'll notice there has been an increase in the number of Code of Conduct complaints
received at both the Buckinghamshire Council and the town and parish council level.
This can be partially explained by outliers in the data, so for Buckinghamshire Council,
one Councillor did receive 13 complaints on the same subject matter.
For parish and town council level, there were two parish councils which respectively had
19 and 16 complaints about their parish councillors.
And perhaps more generally, there seems to be greater awareness of the ability to complain
about a Councillor, Frank.
Oh, sorry.
Mr. Chairman, if I may?
Yes.
Tom, could you just clarify, you said about complaints.
Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:03:17
I didn't quite catch it.
Is it complaints against a parish council or a parish council or?
It's the parish councillors in the parish council.
Mr Tom Fowler - 0:03:27
So of one of the parish councils, there have been therefore 19 complaints about parish
councillors in the parish council.
That's why I didn't let that happen.
So you'll note that there have been no complaints that were considered breaches.
It's perhaps useful to clarify that this means that no complaints reached the level of where a formal hearing was deemed necessary
Which is stage three for us therefore complaints were resolved before the stage at the initial assessment stage stage one or very rarely stage two
Majority of complaints are resolved initial assessments and some do progress to stage one then as informal resolution
Stage one the counsellor is contacted and asked to provide a formal response to the allegations
It is as it sounds an attempt to reach an informal
resolution rather than a formal recommendation
from a hearing.
Stage two involves consulting the chairman of the committee
and the independent person for their views
and make a decision as to whether the proposed actions
we want to take should be taken.
I'd like to also bring your attention
to the government response to the consultation
on the strengthening the standards and conduct framework
for local authorities in England.
The government has proposed to bring in various measures
listed in the report.
Some of the main sort of headline measures
are a new mandatory code for local authorities,
powers for authorities to suspend elected members
for a maximum of six months,
or three months on an interim basis
where serious allegations involving police are involved,
and the creation of a new national appeals function
to consider appeals from elected members
to decisions and from complainants.
As the legislation has yet to be introduced to Parliament,
we don't really have the finer details on this,
but you can view the full response on the government's website which is linked in the report.
And the committee will be informed of updates and progression as we get it.
Just then on training for the Code of Conduct,
we did provide training for all Buckinghamshire councillors on the Code of Conduct as part of the induction this year.
And we are due to visit actually one of the parish councils which was mentioned in the report
to give training on Code of Conduct to them.
And we do this in cooperation with the Buckinghamshire and Milton Keynes Association of Local Councils.
That's sort of headlines from the report. Happy to take any questions.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:05:46
Thank you Tom. Vice Chairman, do you have any views and thoughts before you?
Thank you. I've got a couple of questions. Apologies. And then I'll open to the floor for anyone else's questions.
You mentioned there's been a substantial increase in complaints, which obviously we've all noted.
Cllr Kelly Thornton - 0:06:00
I've noted many of them were closed
at the initial assessment, but do you think as monitoring,
as monitoring officers, that the spike reflects a genuine decline
in civility and respect within the council
and councillors conduct, or does it suggest
that our code isn't meeting public expectations
of what constitutes a breach?
Mr Tom Fowler - 0:06:24
I probably, I wouldn't necessarily say
that there's been a, you know,
reduction in the behaviour in council.
So let's say a lot of the complaints that we have received perhaps don't quite understand
the role or what can be complained about in the code of conduct.
So you'll note sort of in the appendices, sometimes we get complaints that are,
they didn't respond to my email, which isn't a code of conduct matter.
But other times we do have there are obviously genuine code of conduct
complaints that come through that are dealt with.
I mean, it's hard to say why there's been such an increase,
apart from the sort of outliers that I've suggested.
But if Glen or Chris have any particular comments on that.
If I may?
Chairman, thank you.
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:07:08
Yes, I think there is that distinction
between civility and the code.
So I think I would agree with my colleague
that what you see represented here
doesn't represent a decline in behavioural standards
from members concerned,
and the outcomes of the complaints generally reflects that.
However, particularly at the parish level, there has been that national initiative over
the last two years to bring in a civility and respect protocol, which seems to recognise
why would you do that if there was already a code?
Because the two things are different.
The behaviours which may stray into breaching a code may be perfectly acceptable.
Some may regard them as uncivil.
And the parish sector has gone to the level of seeking to have a protocol which guides
of councils on how they might debate and discuss
with each other and treat each other around a table,
the two things are somewhat separate.
And to pick up again, Mr. Fowler's comment,
sometimes members of the public,
or indeed fellow councillors, can overlay the two
and seek to intermesh them when that's not actually the case
because the principles of freedom of speech,
which also play through and are recognised by the code,
are also very significant, very important,
and that's why there's sometimes is attention so I don't think it does
represent a declining standards per se hence the outcomes that you see before
you but there is that distinction particularly at the parish level where
they've sought to overlaid to.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:08:38
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 0:08:43
Councillor Bateman. Thank you chair. So we had last meeting was the 16th of
October and the 4th of December one was cancelled which I questioned with the
amount of cases that were outstanding. So we now have a report in front of us with
109 listed compared to 38 for the last municipal year and that gives me great
concern. What due diligence is being performed as the committee? So through
the chair I'd like to ask can we view, spot cheque a few of these cases, random
ones, so that we can see the transparency of all these decisions that are being
made? Because we're not being made by this committee they're being made
elsewhere but we're rubber stamping this and maybe we should be looking at this for some
idea of who's holding who to account and what the scrutinies are that we use. I'm particularly
concerned about the trends for the councillors within parishes that has been mentioned and
the training needs maybe of councillors within the areas and it's welcome that there will
be training, but what can we learn from this,
and do parish and councils in themselves
need support from us rather than Bauch?
And I'm particularly concerned about one of the cases, which
is on page 27, number 24, where it's
talking about a breach of confidentiality,
and that there was no response from the person that
raised the complaints.
How many times did we ask that member?
Did we just drop that?
and what did we do to follow that one up?
Because it's important to know that we didn't just
drop that job.
And on page 27, number 27, we're respectful and bullying
with the responses.
It's no just on the edge of acceptability.
I'm pleased to see that that will be kept on file in case
there's any reoccurrences.
So I'd wonder if we can do some due diligence ourselves
on spot cheque some of these 100 plus cases for the year.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Councillor.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:10:46
I think in relation to talking about specific cases,
I think if members wish for,
we can talk about it in a private setting
to protect people's identity
so that they're not identified by facts
or by mistakenly mentioning their names.
So I think, you know,
you could park that if members would like to
after the session.
In relation to, just to clarify what you're asking for,
you are asking essentially to cheque the officers works in relation to some of the
investigations assessments they're doing essentially that's basically to
summarise that's what you're asking for is that yes I'm asking if we should be
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 0:11:25
spot checking some of those so that the public our residents know that we're
actually holding all situations to account and we're doing due diligence
that we should be doing.
Okay.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:11:37
Before I put that question to the officers,
are there any members who would like to jump in on this point,
this specific point, or should I just ask the officers to answer?
Does anyone have any views?
It's semi -related, if I can, Chair.
Cllr Kelly Thornton - 0:11:55
It sort of branches out from that in terms of town and parish councils.
So 35 of the 57 total parish complaints related to councils, and you mentioned in your summary
at the start that there would be training given to those councils.
Is there anything else we can do?
I'm more mindful of the residents in those councils.
If they've been making lots of complaints and then those complaints aren't upheld for
no doubt sensible reasons based on the code of conduct as it stands, is there anything
we can do to stop those residents being disenfranchised?
and are we going to be doing training for all town and parish councils?
It's really just to get an idea of basically what our role is in helping town and parish councils,
if that seems to be an issue of contention.
Yep, but can we just, I think there's two points there.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:12:41
One is what can we do to help our colleagues at a parish level
deal with complaints or understand what we do here.
But to go back to your point, I think let's concentrate first.
Councillor Tett, do you have any views on that?
It's specific.
I have a comment on the overall issue, but I just
wanted to comment on that.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:12:58
I'm just trying to think my way through this,
because we're effectively asking if we can cheque officers' work.
We employ professional officers, and now we're
effectively homework checking them, albeit on a spot basis.
And I guess the next point is, what
happens if members disagree?
So for example, an officer looks at it professionally and says,
I can see no egregious breach of a standard here.
But somebody says, I know that person.
I really think they would have had a bad intention
behind what they were doing.
What happens in that situation?
Does the member overrule the professional officer?
Does the professional officer feel almost bullied
into affecting the member's position?
I'm just trying to understand, think through,
what might sound like a perfectly reasonable proposition
from my colleague, but actually we get into the weeds of who's doing whose job and what
happens if there's a member disagreement. And also, how do we select who it is we're
going to scrutinise? I mean, again, one has to be very careful about political bias in
terms of, even unintended political bias, in terms of who wants, you know, double checking.
I'm not saying I'm in favour or against. I'm just trying to think my way through the particular
issue.
Thank you, Councillor Tadd. This is why we are having discussions. This is the purpose
of this committee.
Councillor Dixon.
Thank you very much, Chair.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:14:22
Cllr Tim Dixon - 0:14:25
Just to support Councillor Bateman's point regarding scrutiny, this really is a point
about scrutinising, which surely is a fundamental part of our role this night.
I take on board Councillor Tett's point about difficulties with regards to questioning professional
judgement, etc.
And it's not something that I think we should necessarily take lightly.
But at the same time we do have a scrutinising role as councillors to be able to look at
Issues relating to the council and to be able to scrutinise them
We do have many committees and I can't see why we wouldn't to some degree do it on this committee
In a way in which would be manageable, but we wouldn't be revolving
Sorry revealing. Sorry who a person might be or we wouldn't be operating in a political bias or way
I've got a little bit further to go with regards to some of these figures
and it relates around the high number of figures
and certainly around respect and stuff like that.
And it's a point which plays onto the back
of Councillor Bateman's original points about scrutinising
and about how we present these figures back as well.
If we have respect issues 36, as we can see,
at Buckinghamshire Council and 32 in the parishes,
it'd be interesting to note what those respect issues
actually were. So if there is means in which we need to sort of start taking
on board some of these issues and start sort of like addressing some of the
problems which are leading to these complaints about respect issues that we
can start doing that. At the moment we're given the headline figures to say that
there's being complaints about respect but then the detail about what those
actual areas of respect were. I take it on board that some of these were things
which weren't necessarily taken forward but it would be a nice idea it would be
and it would be good, sorry, to have a breakdown
of what is meant by respect and to be able to see
whether there is any trends within there.
Certainly we get a warning before most meetings now
of full council and I instigated one at the last meeting
with regards to respect and I think it's something
we need to be looking quite seriously at
as a standards committee.
Thank you.
Council Gaughan.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:16:37
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:16:39
And this is something that's come up
for quite a few years now is about the standards that,
you know, we talk about town and parish councils especially.
We will get trained under code of conduct
so there's an even field.
But at parish council and town council level,
and this is where officers would find it quite difficult,
this is how I would see it,
there's not an even field because some are trained
and some are not.
So how to work that out.
I've always said this and I'm with Councillor Tett,
dipping into who's who, what's what, would be a minefield. But I think we should
put an even field across. Everybody should be trained for code of conduct, as
simple as that. I've been going on about that for years and it's something that
we shouldn't ignore, chair, because it's something that gets talked about all the
time is conduct that sometimes happens in the room. Well, if they're not trained,
they're not to know. So personally, I feel that we should be pushing that all
parish councils and town councils should at least be trained in the code of conduct at least.
Okay, thank you.
Councillor Mellon.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:17:45
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:17:49
There's one really grey area that I've never understood and I'd like the officer's opinion on it.
So before I became a Councillor, I was mentored by a very senior Councillor who was Councillor
Tett's deputy for many years.
And it was made quite clear to me that if I stood and was elected as a Councillor, I
technically was a Councillor 24 hours a day.
OK?
Now we see complaints coming in where people have said this, people have said
that, they turn around they say well I didn't say that as Councillor Mahan, I
said it as Frank Mahan. I mean when I put stuff out whether it be as Frank Mahan
or Councillor Mahan on social media, I first of all understand that whether I'm
on either sites, I'm a Councillor and I will be treated as a Councillor. But I see
some of the complaints that come in and there's a very thin white grey line
which says well actually he said that as Frank Man. So I'd like the officer's
opinion on are we Councillors 24 hours a day, 365 days a year or because that's
That's what most of, to be honest about it,
that's what most of the residents think we are,
whether you like it or not.
So I just like their opinion on that, please.
Yeah.
Could I add to that?
Yeah.
Councillor Thornton.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Kelly Thornton - 0:19:32
Just to add to Councillor Mahone's point,
our training programmes evolving to take on board
the blurring lines between personal and public persona,
particularly on social media,
because I completely agree,
I was told exactly the same thing.
if you're in public life effectively,
that's a 24 hour job.
I am also mindful that I'm quite a lot younger
than some of the other counsellors.
So I've grown up with social media
and it's always been embedded even from school age
that you'd be careful what you post online
and you realise that it's public and people can see it
and employers can find it.
So is there anything we're doing
to kind of hold that standard at council
and to modernise our training to take on board
how things work online,
particularly in relation to local politics?
So I think to summarise, I think what I've taken away
from what we've just discussed,
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:20:22
really there are three issues.
First of all is in relation to,
you would note that many of the complaints
stem from the parish level.
So what can we from a but level,
do to better support parish councils
to resolve these governance issues better
before they escalate into a full complaints that come to us?
Then the second point is really, you know, what training are we giving to counsellors
here, both at a parish level as well, in relation to behaving ourselves, respect, and how we
conduct ourselves in a wider context.
And I think the last point really is from Councillor Bateman, which is, should this
committee wish to, and I'm saying should, and I think there's a wider debate around
and I'll reserve my opinion later, is how can,
is it within the powers committee to scrutinise
the assessment in stage one complaints,
is so how could it work?
So I'm grateful for the office's input into this
and let's have a open discussion about this.
Councillor Tett.
Just I'm reflecting having heard the rest of the discussion.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:21:38
I mean, I'd be very supportive of recommendations
around more training for parish counsellors,
which appears to be very much a grey area,
and I've heard comments from colleagues here.
And obviously, we are trained as Buckinghamshire counsellors
on this, and it might be relevant to have refresher
training, as appropriate, on this.
I think now, having heard this discussion,
I'm not personally in favour of members of this committee
digging into individuals' alleged breaches
and effectively counter -checking the officers.
And one of the reasons is, quite frankly,
I heard the discussion about disrespect.
Now, we might all have very different standards
of what constitutes disrespect.
So what is, to some, someone disrespect, actually
to somebody else, somebody sitting next to them,
might actually be free speech, freedom of expression,
a quite legitimate view.
And I'm a bit worried about this committee starting
to polarise almost on political grounds around, you know,
was X disrespected by when they, you know,
a comment was made.
I'd much rather leave that
to nonpolitical professional officers.
Thank you, Councillor Tapp.
I mean, I like to remind councillors on this committee
how complaints work.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:22:54
It's what a council does in relation to complaints,
which basically does an initial assessment
and stage one and stage two, basically.
My understanding is the assessments, stage one and stage two, they are all oversight with the monitoring officer having oversight.
And the monitoring officer, as I understand it, in our constitution, is the legal officer who acts independently and nonpolitical.
So I always got great respect for our legal team and our monitoring officer.
But of course, as Chairman, this is for this committee to have a debate and discussion and, if necessary, a vote.
But I do share your sentiments, Councillor Tett.
It's worked so far.
But of course, Councillor Bateman's raised it,
so we'll have a discussion about it.
Councillor Bateman.
Thank you, Chair.
So I'd like to state that I wasn't being political with requesting this,
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 0:23:46
but more that we are open and transparent for our residents.
And clearly, if we spot checked, we would spot cheque at random, three, four maybe,
but all personal details would be redacted.
So we wouldn't be able to work out what we're looking at.
We're just looking, I'm just proposing myself that we are.
But if I could come in here then just to interject,
then where do we draw the line?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:24:11
Because then we could have in every committee,
including planning committees,
surrender spot cheques on officers' assessments
and recommendations for planning recommendations.
We do.
Do you do?
No, no, no, we scrutinise it, but we don't spot cheque the assessments, the recommendations,
when you put the report together, we don't look through all the, you know, we don't say
well.
Mr. Chairman, if I may.
Yes, of course.
Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:24:39
I think when we're talking about planning, it's, I mean, I chaired four applications
yesterday with my colleagues beside me.
Now, we get a full breakdown of the officer's report.
Everything he or she is taking into consideration is in a mound of paper about that size.
So it's a lot different in planning as opposed to being on a select committee like this because
we don't see the presentation.
You know, if there was 39 complaints coming before us today, I would expect an officer's report
the length of
three or four mile
telling us exactly ins and outs of what actually happened and probably wouldn't give the names.
But the other point I want to make, and I want to come back to Councillor Tett's point about
the difference between Buckinghamshire Councillors and parish Councillors.
I've sat as a parish counsellor for 14 years, six years as chairman, and I've always believed
and made my new colleagues aware that parish council is not a political forum, it's non -political.
And I've stopped people, fellow parish counsellors, from making political points at a parish council
meeting.
Again, I would ask for guidance from the officers on this because it's totally different when
we go into full council.
Full council is a political arena and things are said that could be taken as disrespectful
or whatever the case may be.
It happens in parliament.
It happens at full councils up and down the country.
Completely different stance.
You know, are we right in assuming that parish councils and town councils is a non -political platform first?
Because then, that then divides the parish council, who would probably need different training to what we would get.
So, we have an obligation to respect each other around this table this afternoon.
might be different if we were in full council.
Well, it's a pretty good platform.
And I think parish councillors need guidance on that,
you know, first and foremost.
Secondly, we have to be very mindful
that when it comes to training,
100 % of parish councillors are volunteers.
Most of them have full -time jobs.
Most of them have families to look after, the same as we have or whatever.
We get a small amount of money for what we do.
They get absolutely nothing, not even a thank you at the end of the day.
So if it came to training, I would be suggesting that a lot of the training would have to be done online.
And it's the same with planning.
not everybody can make the training events, but the slides and the presentation is sent out,
and you write in and say to whoever it is, the chairman or whoever, I have studied this course,
and I understand what it entails. So we could make it more easier for parish and town councillors
to avail of these training sessions without taking too much away from their daily life.
Thank you.
Councillor Dixon, you've got a question?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:28:32
Is it related to this?
I was hoping officers would come back and give us their insight.
It's related to the phone email.
Okay, sure.
Okay, so it's been mentioned a few times
Cllr Tim Dixon - 0:28:48
that we spoke about planning off mic.
We do scrutinise offices at meetings,
and that's the point of the majority of the meetings
that we have.
Planning is an example of that,
but we go to another one that I sit on,
and audit and governance.
We scrutinise offices' reports at audit and governance,
and offices should expect to have their reports
And that is the point really of what Councillor Bateman's point is,
is that there's a lack of scrutiny that we can actually do from this committee,
which is quite sad when you look at the increasing number of cases,
albeit that they seem to be around one person.
But we should be looking more deeply at those,
and we should be asking the questions why.
We need to remember that residents are looking at us, and they're trying
to understand why our councillors are potentially misbehaving in this respect.
And they will want to know what those reasons are.
And we need to be confident enough to be able to say
that these reports are, that the complaints that are being made
against counsellors have been scrutinised properly.
And I'm not taking into question the expertise of any
of the monitoring officers, legal teams,
etcetera within the council.
What I am seeing is that we need to be able
to operate effectively as elected representatives.
We need to be able to scrutinise work and committees
that we sit on.
Otherwise, it turns this meeting into a pointless meeting
and a fairly toothless exercise when we receive a report
and we don't actually have any grounds
for which we'll be able to comment upon it any further.
Not even a breakdown of what is meant by disrespect.
I take Councillor Tett's point that respect is
down to the individual on a lot of cases.
But it would be interesting to note what areas
of those levels of disrespect are being put forward in.
At the very least, and Councillor Baitland's point
about looking at individual cases on a sort of like a three or four possibly is a separate matter.
But actually being able to sort of like drill down and be able to have an understanding
of what the disrespect levels are I think is a fair thing for us to be able to ask for
and for us to take up our roles as representatives and as groups in this.
Thank you, Councillor Dixon.
I'd love to hear from the officers.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:31:00
So much. And you've had plenty of time to prepare.
So, Lem.
If I start off and perhaps my colleagues can come back,
fill any comments with, if I miss them out.
We start with the code and which is what's led to being
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:31:16
in front of you today and whether one can then
spot cheque further.
Some of the comments I would have made have been
already prefaced by Councillor Tet as to why that
would not be appropriate, but there's a buck coming
as to how we could get closer perhaps to where you might
want to be, but I'll outline the reasons why not.
So what you've seen before you is the outworking of the code of conduct you have approved as
a council and the outworking of the arrangements for investigating those complaints which you
have agreed as a council.
So we are reflecting that back now.
This is what it looks like under the auspices of the monitoring officer and us as officers
who assist her with that in applying those arrangements.
This is where it's come out.
Each of those cases in there, to an extent, is hemmed around with personal data.
It's a personal data of the person who made the complaint,
it's a personal data of the person complained about.
The lower level at which the complaint is resolved, initial assessment,
no case to answer effectively, stage one.
The less personal data you would expect to be disclosed,
either to a group such as yourselves or to the community at large.
So for example, if something got to stage three to a hearing,
there would be personal data about that,
and all the decisions made around that are made public,
including the name, the issues, and things in detail.
So there's a proportionate sort of funnelling of information
and transparency around that.
Another reason why I think stepping into the process
to spot cheque the work in terms of what happened
in each of these particular cases might not be appropriate
is that yourselves are part of the process anyway,
or maybe you weren't at these particular levels
because the launching officer ruled them out,
but you potentially would be for certain of the other ones
in any case.
So at stage two, that is if we have concluded stage one
that there is an informal resolution
and that an informal resolution was not able to be obtained,
should we then take it further to a hearing,
conversations are had with the chairman
and the vice chairman of the meeting
to determine what they think around taking it to the next stage.
If things did get through to stage three, i .e. a hearing to investigate further,
a group of yourselves would be the people involved in analysing that complaint
and making recommendations and judgments upon it.
So you'll be involved in the process.
So we're all around these tables involved in this process
at certain points should a particular complaint get to that stage in the process.
So that is why then stepping into, for members to then investigate and cross cheque what...
Mr. Watson, sorry to interrupt, but I think this is very important.
Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:34:07
Chairman, if I may say, having watched many webcasts, it's really hard to hear the speaker when there's two microphones on.
Sorry.
Okay, thank you.
I apologise if it wasn't broadcasting effectively.
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:34:23
What I was saying effectively was that the code of conduct and the arrangements which
oversee how complaints are investigated has pegged stages who will be involved at those
stages and that is what you're seeing out worked here.
So we're presenting to you the stages that under the monitoring officer have got to initial
assessment stage one, et cetera.
So you will be involved at further stages further up.
And there is a personal data element involved in the complaints which needs to be preserved
and protected, whilst going into a particular case in some detail would, by its nature,
potentially lead to a disclosure of information.
That said, it is probably somewhat possible, and I'm sure it's a point we could take away
as officers should you wish us to do so, to see how far we could go to give slightly more
information about the complaints in these reports.
So there's that.
Or secondarily, and I think it's entirely possible,
should you wish to go in this direction,
under part of your terms of reference
is how to help yourselves as councillors around this table
understand ethical governance more so you can fulfil
your role here, but also how we can help members
of this authority and in the Parisian town councils
understand things a bit further.
we could potentially draw together some learning and case studies from examples
of things that got resolved at certain points and why they were,
shorn of any sort of detail that we could then use as part of training for us.
We can hand them over to the parish and town councils to look at as well,
that we can do some more extrapolation from the cases that we've had
and say what were the lessons learned, what kind of things were raised,
And if they were not deemed to be engaging with the code, why were they not?
And then that could be guidance we could put on our website, for example, so
that the members of the public, yourselves, and fellow members could understand
a bit more about why things were happening.
That may not be where Chancellor Bateman, for example,
specifically getting to and analysing what we've decided in each case.
However, might get more to the point of more transparency about
why do things turn out the way that they do?
What kind of issue led to it?
Why was it resolved where it was resolved?
I'll stop there in case.
And if any of my colleagues wanted to.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:36:51
I certainly think that the formal former
needs further discussion or investigation,
but the latter seems like a really good idea
to get going with if members, colleagues agree.
And council got me had your hand up first
and then council Thompson and council Mayhorn.
Very kind chairman.
You know, it's quite clear.
So I've dealt with the officers at different levels,
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:37:11
and I find they do an extremely good job
when it comes down to that scrutiny.
So I just want to make that point clear.
But it's clear there's a problem of complaints
that come up from whatever level,
especially parish council level.
We all know that, and no disrespect to parish councils,
and I appreciate they were volunteers, et cetera,
but volunteer or not, you still need some training.
And then, you know, you speak to some of the council,
say, oh, it shouldn't really be like that.
Well, I don't know how I should behave all the time.
And I propose at this meeting, Chairman,
that we respectfully ask all parish councils
to at least be trained under the Code of Conduct.
You talk to many parish councils,
and they don't hardly do any training.
And I think for us as a standards committee
should be requested now as a minimal point
that that should go forward.
So I propose that we request, could that be done?
that we insist that parish councils and tell councils at least take some form of
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:38:18
training under the Code of Conduct. I would second that. Chairman I just I
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:38:21
don't disagree whatsoever I think that would be a great aspiration I just like
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:38:29
to be clear whether we actually have the power to do that. If I may on that point
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:38:32
I think before we all comes to a formal resolution
on that perspective, I think there is a recognition
amongst parish and town councils and their clerks
and also the Buckinghamshire and Milton Keynes Association
of local councils that good practise around code compliance
and code training is something those councils will do,
can do, whether all take it up or not is another matter.
But as a, what I was gonna suggest anyway,
as another point, it may elide into the point
Council Gomes is making in any case,
is one of the things this committee might wish to do
is to look at this in a more holistic way,
and for example, invite in Buckinghamshire Association
of Local Councils Chief Executive, Melinda Woof,
and get the perspective from the association
as to how they operate in this sphere as well.
So picking up Councillor Tett's perspective,
We don't have a directive ability to intervene on authorities and parish and town councils to do any particular thing.
That said, we have a relatively hard -edged soft power to be able to work with the association.
And we do, in several training courses during the year, as Mr Fowler mentioned as part of the report, we do anyway.
but we have the capacity to take that further
in the next few months ahead,
working more closely with the association
to think what guidance do they give,
what do they cover in their newsletters,
how do they, what is the offer available,
and how can that dovetail with the responsibility
of this committee to help purvey good standards?
I think that's a very good suggestion.
I think, you know, we all agreed,
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:40:14
I think that should be on the next agenda, really.
Yeah, so we can move on to other areas to discuss.
Is it Councillor Thornton, you're next.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Kelly Thornton - 0:40:27
I think it's important to put on record that,
and as some of my colleagues have said,
we are not in any way questioning the integrity
or the professionalism of officers in making these reports.
And I think that's, I'm hoping that's obvious,
but in case it isn't for everybody, we're absolutely on.
I think what was raised that was interesting
was our stage three powers anyway.
So there are, in theory, situations where,
luckily we don't have one this year,
councillors who are elected, some of us,
to political parties would be scrutinising
standards decisions relating to councillors
from our own party, councillors from other parties.
So I take on board what Councillor Tett was saying
in terms of we could get into quite murky waters,
but it's already built into the constitution
and into the remit of this committee
that we can do that at the most serious situation.
I also think the case study idea is really good
because we could have that online that's accessible
by residents who can see the standard
of complaint that's needed before it actually becomes a code
of conduct issue, and it would be freely available to town
and parish councils as potentially a slide deck
or just some further information and information pack,
that kind of thing.
So there could be some consistency there even
if we don't have the directive power to make it mandatory.
for town and parish councils.
On this point in relation to transparency
about how decisions are made, personally, I
would be fine with having some worked examples that
are completely anonymized.
But I think it is potentially worth
us exploring further how we make sure
that we can scrutinise decisions rather than,
as Councillor Bateman said, just rubber stamping them.
Because I think we are very lucky at this stage.
We don't have any stage three issues.
But if we did in future, then we've effectively
signed off reports throughout the year on this committee with very little
information about how the decisions were made other than on trust that they were
made in line with the Constitution and the Code of Conduct which I'm sure they
were but I'm more mindful of how we bulletproof that process in case there
is a serious complaint coming rather than trying to do that retrospectively
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:42:39
when we are in quite hot water. Thank you chair. Just a couple of points of
Cllr Sherrilyn Bateman - 0:42:42
clarification, so we're talking about parish there.
There were 57 complaints on parish and 52 on Butts Council.
So we've a higher proportion relatively on Butts Council
compared to the amount of parish councillors.
So we have got a problem within Butts itself.
And Mel does visit and do the training.
She came to Ellsbury Town Council,
which is a political town council,
and she has within this municipal year
done the training on code of conduct.
So it is available for parishes to work with her.
And I like the idea of the case study
because if we are getting cases raised
which are not applicable
because there's not enough ground, if you like,
the residents are public, need to know about that first
and not feel unsupported when their complaint is not upheld.
Thank you.
Councillor Dixon, then Councillor Matthews and Councillor Mayhame.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:43:36
Cllr Tim Dixon - 0:43:38
Thank you. Yes, I also support the the offer by the monitoring officer and I'm actually going to make the same point as Councillor Baitland with regards to 57 versus 52.
But just to highlight further, there are 34 town and parish councils that we're talking about here and one unitary council.
So if we can divide that statistic a little bit further,
it can show that there is a bigger problem within Buckinghamshire Council
than there is necessarily within the town and parish councils.
But I would support looking at case studies and taking those forward as an option.
And also continuing to invite Mel from, I always get this one wrong,
to come in and continue to offer the services.
Because I do know that they offer services
out to Town and Parish Councils,
and it is down to whether the Town and Parish Council
is able and capable of taking up the offer.
Thank you.
Councillor Matthews.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:44:37
Yes, can I just ask, in this new legislation
that's coming down the line about code of conduct,
Cllr Wendy Matthews - 0:44:41
is there any indication in there
that training would be mandatory?
Because then that would apply to parishes
as well as butts councillors, which might be helpful
because we all know that when parish and town councils offer this training to
counsellors, people do not always turn up.
And therefore you've got a council that in theory is trained, but in practise is
not fully compliant.
So I think that would be helpful to know.
Officers, do we have any indication?
I don't, unless my colleagues are going to correct me on this in public.
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:45:13
I don't believe that is the case.
I don't believe there is a requirement or a mandate requirement to undertake the
There is however, the mandatory code that will come down
is implicit that you will have to get with this
mandatory code that comes handed down.
Allied to the fact there's likely to be a requirement
for a standards committee, it's not a legal requirement
to have a distinct standards committee at the moment,
although obviously Bakkeam should does.
But there is a duty on councils, public authorities
to promote good ethical governance.
And it's in between the gaps of those things.
There is a mandatory code, there's a duty to promote good ethical governance, and therefore,
how do those two meet?
Training and acquainting people with what that code means is very important.
If I may, Chairman, can I just pick up on the point you make, Councillor Matthews, and
Chris Ward - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer - 0:46:09
it's a really good one, that you're relying on the councillors to attend the session.
Now, for the session we have planned, we're giving as much notice as possible, but there's
no guarantee that the councillors that we are familiar with perhaps through our work
will attend it.
So it's just another point to add in the mix, I'd suggest.
Thank you.
Officers, I've got a question actually.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:46:35
I'm talking about the mandatory code that's coming down the line.
Now, we don't know when it's coming down or what's going to be contained within it, but
What steps should this committee be taking,
if we can be taking any steps at all
in the next, or the monitoring officer,
in the next sort of months, or six, 12, or 18 months,
to basically ensure there's a smooth transition
into the new proposed mandatory code and suspension powers?
I mean, what can we do now
as opposed to just being reactive when it comes?
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:47:11
That's a difficult one to answer specifically because doing some proactive activity might
then confuse people that it's already started when it has not in terms of the memberships
of this authority and the parish and town council, so there's that.
It also means it's hard to get to grips with consequential things that would need to happen
such as changing the constitution,
acquainting members, making sure the local associations
are plugged in as well,
making sure we're telling the same storey on that
when that happens.
I think one of the potential answers to that question is,
which is the committee's agreement
that you invite the association here
to give their perspective on their role
in engaging with members of the authorities.
There could be a discussion,
our ladder to that is how would the association want to be preparing working with us in readiness so you get a stage closer
to that with the association
But it's when we do know what the likely content content is going to be I think there probably will be a gap between
What the law says and when it comes into force?
And we would have that space and there will be a space whereby the local government association will as they have now
generate a fresh set of guidance on what that code means
and how that should be taken forward
and what good practise looks like.
So I think it would be a staged view.
It's worth having a conversation with the association
and this committee, I think, on that as well.
I think, yeah, having had,
you know, we've been talking about this,
I think it would be good to have it,
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:48:48
the association come in to talk about all these with us.
And I think we'll all agree that we will invite them
for the next session, whoever the chair he or she might be.
Just following on as well,
before we come back to other councillors,
it appears to me with the mandatory code coming forward,
and our engagement with the local associations
and parishes, et cetera,
but also the number of complaints have gone up.
Although there's no direct sort of financial implications
being mentioned in the report,
I'll be confident that the officer team,
the monitoring officer teams,
has sufficient resources to handle
increased volumes of complaints.
We're hoping it goes down obviously,
but if it continues to go up,
because people are not respecting each other,
or people don't know, do we have enough resources?
How are we coping on that front?
Thank you.
I would say at this stage,
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:49:43
without seeing what comes down the line,
the council can be assured that we do have the resources
at present to,
as you'll see from the report in front of you,
to analyse the complaints that you're getting now.
What the future numbers will be, we don't know.
And what the specific requirements are,
and whether that layers on any further requirements
to analyse further, publish statistics, or whatever.
We'll see.
But those things shouldn't be too difficult to do.
It's perhaps more at the lengthening of the stages
and any appeals there might be down the line
any engagement with further other authorities beyond this one.
Thank you. Is it um councillor Mayham did you have any?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:50:27
Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:50:30
Thank you Mr Chairman. Two questions and then a comment if I may please.
First question, what powers does the complainant have i .e if they're not happy with how the officer
has dealt with the case can they ask for that case to be brought before this committee?
That's my first question. My second question is, since this council was formed in 2020,
how many cases have come before this select committee? Okay, that's my second question. My
comment is, I'm very concerned if there's no mandatory training, because I do not believe
for one minute that ignorance is a defence and what I mean by that is if
the training is not mandatory and I commit do something that I honestly
don't think didn't know was against the code my defence is well I wasn't trained
on that code I don't know what that code was so that's one of my big concerns but
I think I'd like the two questions answered, please.
If I may, on the point of the mandatory side of things,
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 0:51:47
why is it not mandatory in the sense of a legal requirement?
This authority, Buckinghamshire Council,
does regard training on the code of conduct
as a mandatory requirement for all members every year,
usually late May or June, to refresh that,
to take any perspective on any case law they may have been,
or as it might be this forthcoming year,
to give you a trailer for what might come,
reflecting on some of the issues that have cropped up
and think, well, we won't just give equal emphasis
to every aspect of the code,
because clearly these have been more issues
for the council this year,
and perhaps we'll illustrate more examples on those.
So it is a mandatory requirement,
and we do, while we, I don't think,
my colleagues might correct me
whether we've had 100 % of people either attend a session
or do it virtually online.
it's a very high take up from this authority,
so there is that requirement from this authority for sure.
As regards the numbers over time,
isn't it the case I think our appendix three
shows the trend over recent years, I think,
of the numbers coming, of complaints
coming to the authority here,
but I don't have the facts at my fingertips.
Okay.
I'm conscious, Council GOM, did you have any comments?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:53:04
Can we try to keep quite short?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:53:08
Very quick. So I've just got my, so when, when we'd,
yeah, so we're going to look into the code of conduct.
That'd be great. That gives those parish councils,
town councils at least something to step back onto in that respect.
When we talk about scrutinising individual cases,
just something quick to chair. When I was working with the police,
what we used to do there was it, when certain cases cropped up,
they would be rewritten for committee office to scrutinise,
but they were done as a scenario.
So you never know who it was, what it was, where it was,
but it was written that would,
so that could be a way forward possibly,
but who would pick out the ones.
But that's how it is done in a softer touch
and not scrutinising the officers,
but just scrutinising the process.
Thank you.
Councillor Tett and then Councillor Thornton
and then Councillor Chalkley.
I'll try and keep it short if I can,
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:53:58
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:54:00
but we are here, we keep hearing we're here to scrutinise.
We're here to scrutinise process.
You know, we're not meant to be digging into individual cases,
and in my view, second checking the officers.
I just think that element of scrutiny
needs to be emphasised.
I have no issue with further incentivization
of the parishes, which I think is probably quite sensible.
We are involved later should an escalation
be required in a complaint.
So it's not that we're not involved as members at all.
It's just, I would say, at the appropriate point in time.
There's a comment about case studies.
I don't have a problem with case studies.
But obviously, it would be up to officers
to choose effectively a case study.
But again, I ask the question of what's the point?
You know, if a case study comes here, are we going
to have a debate where one of our members says, well,
actually, I disagree.
You know, they should have been hung, drawn, and quartered
for making that particular comment at full council.
And somebody else says, well, actually,
I thought it was a very fair political point to make.
I don't quite understand what the case study coming here
in a public domain effectively, or even
in confidential session, what that does.
I think we need to be very clear what
the consequences of, for example,
having a case study would be.
And also, when you look at the weighting,
a comment was made about the weighting
for the number of Buckinghamshire councillors.
What I'm not clear on, it was going to be my wider point
before we got into this particular debate.
I mean, I've dealt with a number of these in past lives.
And you do get writing campaigns.
I mean, what can happen particularly
with social media is people confuse
the issue with the person.
So they don't like a planning decision,
so they complain about the planning chairman.
They don't like a planning decision,
they complain about their local councillor.
They don't like the fact their road wasn't resurfaced,
so they complained about their local councillor.
And I do think we need to be, and then they ask everybody
else to write in as well.
And it would be useful to understand whether there are patterns that actually illustrate
that or whether actually it is completely random and there is no evidence whatsoever
of multiple complaints against the same person for what could be construed as trivial reasons.
Chris, thank you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:56:18
Just to add the points you raised there, Councillor Tett, off the top of my head, we have had
Chris Ward - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer - 0:56:20
complaints about very much each of those instances.
And we log it because it is a code complaint,
but in those instances, the code is not engaged,
but it would still be on our numbers.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:56:37
I think just to sort of piggyback on what
Cllr Kelly Thornton - 0:56:40
Councillor Tepp was saying, from my point of view at least,
the case studies would be more for education for residents
in terms of on the website,
but also for councillors at unitary, town and parish level,
rather than for us to scrutinise how the decision was made here.
But I think it's worth exactly what Councillor Tett said
in terms of things like planning decisions.
We've all been in this situation as councillors,
where we get an email complaining about us,
that we have no power to make a decision,
but the public don't understand how the decision -making works.
I think the benefit of a case study would be able to say,
like this is example X is something that does count
as a code complaint.
Example Y is a political attack,
or it should be going to a different department,
it's not a code complaint, et cetera.
So looking at the data,
complaints about counsellors not answering emails,
for example.
I'm sure it's very frustrating.
I, as a counsellor myself,
I'm very frustrated emailing other counsellors
and not getting a response,
but it's not a code of conduct issue.
So those kind of points,
I think it's useful for counsellors to know,
because obviously some complaints come from other counsellors
and also for residents to know.
And that might get our numbers down in terms of allowing us
to focus on just genuine complaints.
And the other point I wanted to raise is in relation
to our work programme, which we might come onto on the agenda.
But broadly, if we're going to call the association in
to give us some education and to sort of explain their position,
I think it's also worth this committee having a session
to analyse the impact of upcoming mandatory laws
and codes as they come in before, well, when I say as they come in, as they are decided
before they come into force so that we can debate issues around, you know, what our enforcement
powers are likely to be, how it would operate, how our code might change in terms of how
complaints are escalated through the stages. I think that would be worth us as a committee
having that on the agenda items as information comes down from central government.
Thank you. Councillor de Chavo.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:58:42
Cllr John Chilver - 0:58:44
Thank you very much, Chairman. I just wanted to pick up on your question about resourcing in the team and the increased workload.
And Glen referred to the table on page 35, table 3, showing a very significant increase in the current year in the number of complaints.
But as we've heard, there have been
a large number of multiple complaints on the same issue.
And presumably, that would only require one follow up.
So I think it's slightly more significant to actually know
the number of separate cases that the team has
had to deal with.
Because presumably, the same method
has been used in previous years.
And to know what the trend in the actual number
of separate cases rather than the cumulative number of cases,
many of which might be duplicates.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:59:43
So this is sort of highlighted a little bit in Annex I
Tom Fowler - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer - 0:59:46
where we do talk about which counsellors have received more
than one complaint.
So we sort of, and then highlight
which complaints they were.
But yes, there are often duplicate complaints
which then are, you know, largely investigated as one
because it's, although it's multiple complainants,
it is one W matter and therefore will get largely the same response.
Also just to touch on something that Councilmahon mentioned about the separation between public
and councillor life.
Yes, I would agree with your assessment that you should always act as if you are a councillor.
That's something the committee did mention, the government committee on standards and
public life about that distinction being quite difficult and a problem.
So it's unclear whether the mandatory code would introduce that or
remove it or should rather remove it.
But yes, the code does make that distinction.
So that's something that we do, therefore,
include in our complaints considerations.
Thank you. Glenn, do you have anything to add?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:00:50
Yeah, just to reinforce what Tom just said.
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 1:00:52
And the law recognises at the moment there's a distinction.
So until the law changes to say that counsellors are a 24 -hour counsellor or the law about the incoming code does
Then there is a distinction
Thomas just said between your private life
When you're acting as a and when you're acting as a counsellor
So you'd have to demonstrably be acting as a counsellor at the time and there are ways in which that it denotes itself
and again
that could form part of a
For want of a better phrase, a case study where we could illustrate what would and what wouldn't be called by something like that.
Councillor de Chumba.
Cllr John Chilver - 1:01:34
I just wanted to pick up on that because the complaints about social media comments have all been dismissed because the member was acting as a private individual.
individual, I'm just wondering, would it make any difference
if they actually identified themselves as a counsellor
on the council social media site or not?
And also, would it make a difference if they were actually
talking about a council related issue rather than something
in national or international politics, for example?
And then Chairman, then, on that.
Glenn Watson - Principal Governance Officer - 1:02:08
Yeah, those are absolutely the right sort of considerations
to have raised.
There'll be a number of factors involved,
which is why the monitoring officer has that role
under the arrangements for investigating complaints,
which cascades down through Tom and Chris and myself
to look at is just that
if someone is communicating on a social media platform
which brands them as counsellor
and they're talking about counsellor matters,
then they're almost like bank to rights
because all the stars are aligning
as far as that's concerned.
If they're not, and if they're talking about public affairs, generally speaking, like anybody else could,
they haven't branded their feed in that way, then it would be less so.
Those are the considerations.
So when we look at that and come to the assessment, which is reflected in the report,
that would have reflected a piece of work that Chris and Tom primarily, for the monitoring officer, would do initially,
and wish they'd checked with me,
to look exactly at that evidential base
and see what is denoting that feed, that communication.
What were they doing?
What would a reasonable member of the public conclude
and on what basis?
Thank you, Glenn.
I think we've had quite a lot of discussion
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:03:27
about the annual review, the report.
My thoughts are this, is I think what we talked about
a lot of it is very constructive.
I think most of it is constructive in the spirit
of trying to better transparency and standards
for this council.
I think the suggestion around getting Belkin
and engaging with them, training,
and even transparency, examples and cases,
I think if the committee agrees,
I think we'll ask the officers to progress
and to give us a report at the next meeting
as to how they might implement that.
In relation to what Council Bateman has suggested,
along with Council Atta, I share his concerns.
I think the system, systems can always be improved,
but it's sort of how much further do you want to push it,
how much effort, and what do you get back,
and obviously the downsides to it
in terms of data protection, et cetera.
In relation to that, again, I would say, officers,
perhaps if the committee agrees,
officers go and have to think about what this committee has reflected,
the different views,
and if the monitoring officer could come back to us with their view,
or the legalities of it.
I think the reports, this committee would appreciate that report.
We can do that, sure.
Does anyone have any disagreements as to how we progress?
All right, thank you.
If that's the case, we can move on to the next agenda item.
Yeah, which is the works programme.

5 Work Programme

Which I, you know, June, very, very,
luckily there's nothing in that.
So perhaps what we just suggested, most of it,
if possible, can come back to that for this committee.
Right? But I also appreciate the makeup of this committee
and including its chair and vice chair can be very different
by then.
So again, it's for discussion with the next chair and vice chairs
as to how they might want to take on board what this committee has left for them in terms of that legacy.
Thank you.
Now, in terms of the work programme, would officers like to take us through it?
Tom Fowler - Senior Member Services and Governance Officer - 1:05:46
Yes, so on the work programme you'll see the normal Q1, Q2, Q3 reports on Code of Conduct.
There is also the complaints and the Ombudsman update which come from the normal complaints that we receive about the Council.
And that's sort of what's on there at the moment, but again we can include what's been suggested and anything else that the Council or the committee wants to suggest really.
I was going to say 11 June might be a good opportunity to get Falcon. I mean it would be good stuff for the committee and really kickstart the whole process.
Thank you.
Any comments from colleagues on the work programme?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:06:26
Cllr Frank Mahon - 1:06:33
Councillor M
on something that we may not, you know, may be thrown in the dustbin by the next committee that comes in.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:07:02
I completely agree, which is why I said to the Office of Financial Liaison with the next Chair and Vice -Chair,
Esther Houn, they want to deal with the legacy of this committee.
And Councillor Shriver, did you have a point to make?
Just a minor correction, I think for the January meeting,
Cllr John Chilver - 1:07:12
quarter three would be October to December, not November to December.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:07:19
Good spot, thank you.

6 Date of the next meeting

Okay, that's okay, let's move on to the next agenda item, which is the date of the next meeting, which already has been noted as the 11th of June.
If there are no other comments from colleagues, officers, then we can close this meeting.
Oh, sorry, Councillor Conlon.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:07:43
Sorry, Chairman, before we do go, like you referred to, there could be a totally new committee here next time round.
So I'd like to say on behalf of colleagues,
this side of the table, to you as chair and vice chair,
thank you very much for such a great job you've done
over the period of the year.
Thank you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:07:57
And I haven't finished yet.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:08:00
And then to the offices as well.
Thank you very much for being so open and transparent
to us as well.
So thank you very much.
Here, here.
Thank you, council.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:08:09
As I said in the last council meeting,
thank you very much for all your work
and for making this committee the nonpartisan,
you know, ethical committee there is that, you know,
acts in the council's best interest.
Thank you very much.
And to the officers as well for your hard work.
And Councillor Haunton.
Thank you.
I thought I should probably also say that.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Kelly Thornton - 1:08:30
As Vice Chair for this year,
whether I make it past May, we don't know yet,
but thank you to the Chair.
It's a very cross -party committee, this one.
It's been lovely working with everyone.
The officers have been brilliant.
I'm also mindful some of us
only been elected for a year. So as a baby councillor, it was a good committee to come
on to first. And it's been great working with you, particularly across party and our private
meetings and stuff have all been brilliant. So hopefully we are holding the standards that we
should be as Buckinghamshire councillors and other committees and full council will take note and
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:09:11
carry on in that in that mood after May. Thank you. Thank you very much. Well, meeting
Thank you.
Mr Tom Fowler
Democratic Services Officer
View profile Mr Tom Fowler