Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee - Monday 18 May 2026, 2:00pm - Buckinghamshire Council Webcasting

Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee
Monday, 18th May 2026 at 2:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Phil Gomm
  2. Harry Thomas - Democratic Services Officer
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  1. Cllr Phil Gomm
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  1. Cllr Paul Griffin
  2. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  3. Cllr Phil Gomm
  4. Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer
  5. Cllr Phil Gomm
  6. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  7. Cllr Phil Gomm
  8. Harry Thomas - Democratic Services Officer
  9. Cllr Phil Gomm
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  1. Harry Thomas - Democratic Services Officer
  2. Cllr Phil Gomm
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  1. Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer
  2. Cllr Phil Gomm
  3. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  4. Cllr Phil Gomm
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  1. Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer
  2. Cllr Phil Gomm
  3. Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer
  4. Cllr Phil Gomm
  5. Applicant
  6. Cllr Phil Gomm
  7. Cllr Paul Griffin
  8. Applicant
  9. Cllr Phil Gomm
  10. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  11. Applicant
  12. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  13. Applicant
  14. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  15. Applicant
  16. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  17. Cllr Phil Gomm
  18. Applicant
  19. Cllr Phil Gomm
  20. Applicant
  21. Cllr Phil Gomm
  22. Applicant
  23. Cllr Phil Gomm
  24. Objector
  25. Cllr Phil Gomm
  26. Applicant
  27. Cllr Phil Gomm
  28. Applicant
  29. Objector
  30. Cllr Phil Gomm
  31. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  32. Objector
  33. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  34. Objector
  35. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  36. Cllr Phil Gomm
  37. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  38. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  39. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  40. Objector
  41. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  42. Objector
  43. Cllr Phil Gomm
  44. Applicant
  45. Cllr Phil Gomm
  46. Objector
  47. Cllr Phil Gomm
  48. Objector
  49. Cllr Phil Gomm
  50. Objector
  51. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  52. Cllr Phil Gomm
  53. Objector
  54. Cllr Phil Gomm
  55. Laura Heller - Lawyer
  56. Cllr Phil Gomm
  57. Applicant
  58. Cllr Phil Gomm
  59. Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer
  60. Cllr Phil Gomm
  61. Applicant
  62. Cllr Phil Gomm
  63. Objector
  64. Cllr Phil Gomm
  65. Webcast Finished

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00
when the webcast has started please.
OK, it's just started. Thank you.
Harry Thomas - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:12
OK, right, good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. The first business on the

1 Confirmation of Chairman

agenda is just to confirm the chairman for the hearing and I can confirm that
Councillor Phil Gomme has been selected to chair the hearing. So over to you
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:23
Councillor Gomme. Thank you very much for that and welcome everybody. So good

2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

afternoon and welcome to the Buckinghamshire Council Licencing Sub -Committee
hearing in relation to an application for a variation to the premises licence at 10
Pack Horse Road, Gerald's Cross, SL97QE. As per the Licencing Act 2003 and the regulations
made there under, licencing subcommittees are not precluded from holding remote hearings
as they are unaffiliated by the requirements relating to the Local Governance Act of 1972
and therefore hearings may be conducted online and attended remotely by members and officers.
The public and the press can still see and hear the hearing through the live webcast
and members of the public have been allowed into the virtual hearing to speak where
they have registered to do so. So I'm the chairman for the hearing my name is Councillor Philip Gom
and would now like to introduce all the panel members. If we could start with Councillor's
first please. Good afternoon, my name's Paul Gryphon, I'm the Buckinghamshire Councillor
Cllr Paul Griffin - 0:01:31
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:01:36
for the Ivers. Hello, I'm a Buckinghamshire Councillor as well for Bearden, Kingsborough
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:43
and Wing. Thank you very much colleagues. And now as we move through the officers, Ms
Stacey Beller, if you'd like to introduce yourself. Thank you. Good afternoon, thank
Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer - 0:01:54
Thank you, Chair. My name is Stacey Bellah. I am the licencing officer for Buckinghamshire Council.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:00
Thank you very much. And Stacey Bellah, she'll present the report and provide advice on any matters related to the licencing policy guidance and practise.
Then we move on. Ms Laura Heller.
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 0:02:14
Good afternoon, Chair. My name's Laura Heller. I'm a solicitor with the council's legal department and I'm acting as legal advisor to the panel today.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:22
And for everyone to know that Laura Heller, she's here to advise the panel on licencing a local government law.
And this is to ensure that the committee makes a decision. It is both within its powers and legally sound.
Then we move on to Mr Harry Thomas.
Harry Thomas - Democratic Services Officer - 0:02:38
Hello. Yes, I'm Harry Thomas. I'm here with Democratic Services.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:41
Thank you very much for introducing yourself there.
So in attendance are the following. I believe we got all all here.
So the following will be involved in the hearing at various stages of discussion of the application.
The application is Joanna Riley. Are you here?
Hello, Mr Chair. Yes, I'm present.
That's very kind. Thank you. And then Rohan Aldcroft. He's the business development manager at Blue Pier Limited.
Yes, good afternoon.
Very kind, thank you. And then Joanna Allen, Company Director for Blue Poyle Limited?
She's currently not present in the meeting.
Okay, do we know she's going to be attending?
Unfortunately she's unavailable for today.
Oh okay, no problem at all, thank you very much. And then in attendance also the interested parties,
Mr Eugene Walsh is an objector, could you just confirm?
Yes, I'm here. Thank you.
Okay, and Mr Thomas, is there anyone else that came into the meeting late?
No, I had confirmation only that Mr Walsh would be here.
Okay, lovely. So I can confirm that if a relevant person is not present, their representations would have been read and will be considered when reaching a decision.
I would like to ask that nobody apart from the panel members and officers uses the chat function.

3 Apologies for absence

So as we move on to procedure items, agenda item three, do we have any apologies of absence?
Harry Thomas - Democratic Services Officer - 0:04:23
No Chairman, none.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:26
Thank you. Then moving on to agenda item four.
Turning now to declarations of interest under the council's code of conduct.

4 Declarations of interest

Do any members have any declarations of interest they wish to bring to the attention of the
subcommittee? Nothing to declare, Chair.
Thank you. Councillor Gibbon. Nothing to declare, Chairman.

5 Hearing Procedure Rules

Thank you very much. So we're moving down the agenda onto agenda item 5. We have the
virtual licencing subcommittee hearing procedure rules, which are appended in the agenda pack.
Now could all parties in attendance confirm that they have seen and understood the procedure to be followed for this hearing?
Everyone?
Yes.
Yeah, thank you.
So everyone in attendance is happy for the hearing to proceed, so we will. Thank you.
The purpose of the hearing should be borne in mind at all times to enable those with a right to appear to advance their point of view and concerns to test the case of their opponents and to assist the subcommittee to gather evidence and understand the relevant issues.
Please be reminded that parties should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters
previously raised or submitted. The subcommittee may depart from this procedure if it considers
it necessary and or equitable to do so. So as we continue down, do we have any preliminary
issues? Licence officer. Thank you Chairman. Yes, I just wanted to raise an issue that
Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer - 0:06:08
came to light this morning regarding the permitted licence activities and timings. It has come
to light that the hours stated on the copy of the premises licence attached to my report
as appendix 4 are incorrect due to a clerical error which was made when issuing the licence.
Prior to the grant of the initial licence in 2003, some amendments were made to the
correct timings can be found on page five of the decision notice which is attached to
my report as appendix three. But for clarity, the correct timings permitted under the current
premises licence are the supply of alcohol on and off the premises between 8am and 11pm
on Monday to Thursday, between 8am and midnight on Friday and Saturday and between 9am and
11pm on a Sunday or late tonight refreshment indoors only. The activity is permitted on
a Friday and Saturday between 11pm and midnight and the opening hours are Monday to Saturday
8am till midnight and then Sunday 9am to 11pm. I have already spoken with the applicant prior
to the hearing who has kindly confirmed their understanding of the matter and agreed that
they're happy to proceed with the hearing in light of the inconsistency. However, I
would just ask the panel to note the correct hours which are stated in the decision notice
and consider these as the hours permitted for licenced activities under the current
licence. And obviously any decision that is made today would be in line with the hours
outlined in this notice. I hope that that's clear for everybody. Do let me know if you've
got any questions. That's very clear. We were all very conscious of that earlier on. I'm
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:08:08
glad you've sort of corrected that with the applicants. So we'd like to say thank you
very much to the applicants for obliging that and understanding. Laura Heller, hand up.
the next question.
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 0:08:24
Yes, thank you, chair.
It is just to raise with the
parties and in particular the
applicant that I know that
there has been some redrafting
of proposed licence conditions
in your operating schedule that
have gone on in the background.
And the conditions which have
been proposed have been put forward and they're in page 24 of the bundle.
But having considered a couple of those conditions, I just wanted to propose some alternative
wording. So the current condition 12 doesn't overly make sense when it's read. And so I
have popped some additional wording into the chat.
So if the applicants can have a look at that,
and at some point I can come back to them
before the end of the hearing,
just to see if they're happy with the alternative wording.
But in effect for everybody
or people who are watching at home,
the alternative wording I have suggested
is patrons shall not be permitted to drink or smoke
outside the premises,
except within the external seating area hatch blue on the premises plan.
And also in relation to condition 16,
having looked at the applicant's operating schedule,
they appeared to be offering a restriction of food and drink being consumed in outside areas
after 20 to 30 hours in regards to their application.
And so again, in relation to condition 16,
I put some alternative wording in the chat,
which in effect adds on to the end of that condition,
the food and drink shall not be consumed in this area
after 20 to 30 hours.
And again, in relation to condition 17,
just adding on to the end of that condition,
other than for smoking.
So it makes it clear in the signage that the outside areas are closed, but they can still
be used for smoking. So hopefully none of that will be too controversial if the applicants
can consider that wording and I can come back to them to see whether or not they're agreeable
with that before the end of the hearing. Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:10:54
Thank you very much for that, Laura, Hannah. Before we move on with Stacey Bennet, there's
two things. Earlier on there was some late evidence that an objection that was sent in
on Friday. We have we shared that and we need to get permission. Yes, I've circulated that around
to all the parties, yeah. Okay, so everybody we have to go through the normal procedure.
So it was it was it wasn't sent late, it was within the time schedule that we can operate from.
I know that everybody hasn't had a chance possibly to read the objection.
It came in on Friday at 7pm, which is acceptable.
I just wish to ask everybody, have you had a chance to read it?
And if you would accept it into the hearing today?
I've read it, Chair.
It's not overly relevant, I don't think, but I'm happy for it to be included.
Yeah, especially the applicants.
Are you happy for us to include that into the hearing?
Yes, relevant but happy to have it included.
Thank you very much, very kind of you to allow.
Okay, so we've got that.
Sorry to interrupt, Chair. Can we just cheque that Mr Walsh is also content for that to be included as part of today's deliberations?
Thank you, I was just going to ask him that question.
Mr Walsh?
Mr Walsh?
I heard something, Mr Walsh, are you there?
Yes, I'm still here, yes I'm here. Sorry you dropped out. I'm going to go with you addressing me.
Are you happy for the late papers to be added to the hearing? The applicant's very happy.
Okay. And also for legality, would you mind if you show, have you got a camera on your computer?
We do like to see those that are in hearings.
Paul Gryphon, your woodpecker is back.
Yes, hello. Can you hear me? Yeah.
Yeah. Have you got a camera that you could?
I beg your pardon, yes. My camera's on. Can you hear me?
Oh, it's not showing you?
Oh, I beg your pardon. Well, my camera is definitely on.
Obviously it's a matter for you, Chair, but I think as long as we can hear Mr Walsh and most of the public can hear him,
I don't think there's any legal issues proceeding, but obviously it's a matter for you in respect of the camera.
he appears to be having an issue but I think if we can all hear each other then a fair hearing can take place.
Yeah I accept that I would concur with that. Paul Gryphon can you turn your mic off please because the woodpecker keeps coming through.
That's it thank you very much for that.
Okay so we now move to consider the officer report being presented this afternoon in respect of a variation
to the premises licence located at 10 Pack Horse Road,
Gerads Cross SL97QE.
Please don't, you should only address the subcommittee
in relation to matters previously raised.
Any late evidence will be only considered
with the consent of all parties.
That has happened, we've mentioned that extra information
and we're gonna take it on board.
So I'd now like to invite the licencing officer,
Ms. Stacy Bellah, to present the report

6 The Journeyman, 10 Packhorse Road, Gerrards Cross SL9 7QE

outlining the details of the application and representations received. Over to you.
Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer - 0:14:44
Thank you Chairman. The application that we're considering today is an application made under
section 34 of the Licencing Act 2003 for a variation of a premises licence. The application
has been submitted by Blue Pier Group Limited, the applicant in respect of the journeyman,
10 Packhorse Road, Gerrard's Cross, SL97QE, the premises. The premises is situated on the eastern
side of Packhorse Road within Gerrard's Cross town centre and is surrounded by a mix of retail
hospitality and residential properties. The premises currently consist of a ground floor
bar and restaurant area with external seating area. A location map is attached to my report
marked as Appendix 1 and a copy of the current licence plan is attached as Appendix 2.
The premises was granted a premises licence under the Licencing Act 2003 on the 25th of
April 2023 following determination by the Licencing Subcommittee at a hearing. A copy
of the decision notice issued after that hearing is attached at Appendix 3. The licence was
transferred from Oakman Group PLC to Blue Pier Group Limited on the 11th of August 2025.
A copy of the current premises licence is attached to my report as appendix 4. However,
I would just refer back to my previous comments around the timings on that licence and that
the current timings should be found in the decision notice attached as appendix 3. The
application request to vary the current premises licence with immediate effect and was received
by the licencing authority on the 23rd of March 2026. A copy of the application form
can be found attached as Appendix 5. The variations sought as part of the application are as follows.
To amend the condition under Annex 3 of the premises licence which currently reads, all
external areas of the licence premises shall be vacated and not permitted for the use of
patrons by 2100 hours each day, save for patron smoking, and to replace it with a condition
that reads, all external areas of the licenced premises shall be vacated and not permitted
for the use of patrons by 2230 hours each day, save for patron smoking. The application
also seeks to amend the condition under Annex 3 of the premises licence, which currently
states the licensee shall ensure that the premises site is operated in accordance with
the noise management plan dated the 18th of July 2022. This amendment is to allow for
the removal of section 2 .4, door supervision from the noise management plan. A copy of
the noise management plan referenced in this condition is attached as appendix 6. However,
following the submission of the application, the applicant has clarified that the request
to remove section 2 .4 regarding door supervision from the noise management plan was based on
the understanding that this section imposed a requirement for door supervisors to be present
on specific nights. A subsequent review of the noise management plan has confirmed that
this is not the case. The applicant has proposed separate conditions in relation to door supervision
as part of the application which are included within the proposed schedule of conditions
at paragraph 10 of my report. It is also noted that the current noise management plan states
members of the public shall not be permitted to enter or remain in the front external seated terrace area
as from 2100 hours to the time that the premises ceases to be open to the public.
A dedicated smoking area has been allocated and shall remain accessible to patrons beyond 2100 hours solely for the purpose of smoking.
And this is shown on the accompanying plan.
If the application grants.
Can I just stop one second? I know you want a fantastic flow like you normally are.
Harry, someone's been entered in onto the screen. Do we, who is that, please?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:18:43
That's my new fellow.
It's a joke, that's my wife.
Sorry. Sorry.
Harry, who is it, please?
Sorry, is that Mr Eugene's wife?
I don't think that you have made relevant representations as far as I'm aware, so you wouldn't be entitled to participate in this hearing.
That's right, I'm doing it because Eugene's having a few problems just hearing everything and so we've just done this in a different way, we've connected, but if you want me to cut off I can do that.
I'm happy for that to happen but you won't be allowed because obviously Laura is having problems with the computer.
If we're, could you both turn your mics off for a start as well because they're echoing back.
But we'll give you a while to sort it out but we're not.
I'll cut it off just now and I will come back if Eugene can't connect at any point because he's not here.
Okay, all right, bye -bye.
I think, Chair, would it be better to have a short adjournment of 10 -15 minutes in order
that Mr Walsh, because he needs to be able to hear and participate in proceedings without
any issues with his equipment that he's using?
Yes, Mr Walske. I don't need an adjournment, it was only so that my wife wasn't listening because I'm sitting here with the earbuds so she can't listen.
That's simply fine. So please, let's just...
Thank you.
I'll turn my microphone off.
Thank you, Stacey Bailer, back to you. Sorry for breaking in on your flow.
Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer - 0:20:46
No, no problem, thank you very much. So I was just at paragraph 3 .4, so the current
noise management plan includes a measure that permits the use of the external terrace area
after 2100 hours. If this application is granted, this provision would then be inconsistent
with the proposed amendment to the licence conditions which look to permit the use of
external seated area until 22 .30 hours. The applicant has therefore been requested to
submit an updated noise management plan to reflect the proposed amendments within the
application. This requirement is reflected in the proposed schedule of conditions at
paragraph 10 of my report. The application does not propose any changes to the permitted
hours for licenced activities or to the layout of the premises. The application was subject
to the statutory 28 day consultation period which ended on the 20th of April 2026. During
that time the following responses were received. We received no objection from Thames Valley
Police, no objection from Bucks Fire and Rescue and no response was received from any of the
other responsible authorities. Three valid objections were received during the consultation
period from members of the public on the grounds of the prevention of public nuisance and prevention
of Crime and Disorder licencing objectives. Three valid representations in support of
the application were also received during the consultation period and copies of all
of these representations are attached to my report at appendix 9. The applicant submitted
a written response to the objections received which has been circulated to those who made
an objection and is attached to this report at appendix 10. Three responses have since
been received following this letter being sent and these have all been circulated separately
ahead of the hearing. In terms of the licencing officer's observations, relevant representations
have been received from residents. The objections raised relate primarily to the licencing objective
of the prevention of public nuisance and the prevention of crime and disorder. Objections
generally raise concerns about noise nuisance arising from the use of the external terrace
and the operation of the premises in general. Representations state that the noise management
plan has not been consistently complied with along with concerns regarding behaviour and
noise from patrons leaving the premises. Objections do also raise some concerns in relation to
planning permission, however members are advised that planning and licencing operate as separate
regulatory regimes and that planning matters would fall outside of the remit for consideration
as part of this licencing hearing. The planning authority however is a responsible authority
under the licencing act and a statutory consultee in the licencing process and it is also noted
that the applicant has made some inquiries with the planning department separately.
Relevant representations have been received in support of the application from members of the
public. Representations in support of the application state that the premises is well
managed and that the external terrace area has not caused significant disturbance to them.
Supporting representations consider the proposed changes to be reasonable and
proportionate and suggest that they would support the business.
In addition to the mandatory conditions under the Licencing Act 2003, the licencing
subcommittee should consider those conditions offered in the operating schedule and decide
whether they are appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the licencing objectives
and address any valued representations made by interested parties.
The schedule of proposed conditions is attached in paragraph 10 of my report. The panel should
note that the applicant has proposed some conditions relating to live and recorded music.
However, it should also be noted that any conditions related to entertainment would
not apply between the hours of 8am and 11pm as these activities would fall within the
of deregulated entertainment during that time period. This is also subject to any changes
that the applicant agrees to the conditions that Laura has posted in the chat that would
update the conditions stated at paragraph 10. In terms of policy considerations, regard
must be had to the council's adopted licencing policy published in February 2022 when determining
this application of particular relevance but not limited to the following. In general,
the licencing authority will set hours of licence premises according to individual merits
of each case. However, in line with the duty to promote the licencing objectives, the licencing
authority's policy is to respect the rights of residents to peace and quiet. In general,
the licencing authority will take a more stringent approach to licencing hours in areas of higher
residential density where there is a greater risk of public nuisance. In considering variation
applications the decision concerning conditions must be confined to the subject matter of
the application as per case law. In practise this means that conditions cannot be imposed
in response to a variation application that do not relate directly to the application
that has been requested. In considering all licenced applications the licencing authority
will consider whether the measures propose to deal with the potential for public nuisance,
having regard to all circumstances of the application are adequate. Much weight will
be placed on recommendations made by environmental health officers in terms of preventing public
nuisance. Particular measures can include noise escape, arrangements for customer smoking,
customer arrival and departure, and arrangements for outside areas.
Regard must also be had to the national guidance issued by the Home Office under Section 182
of the Licencing Act 2003 as amended. The legislation provides a clear focus on the
promotion of the four statutory licencing objectives which must be addressed when licencing
functions are undertaken. The licencing objectives are the prevention of crime and disorder,
public safety, the prevention of public nuisance and the protection of children from harm.
Each objective is of equal importance. There are no other statutory licencing objectives
so that the promotion of the four objectives is a paramount consideration at all times.
In relation to the prevention of public nuisance, the statutory guidance states that the 2003
Act enables licencing authorities and responsible authorities through representations to consider
what constitutes public nuisance and what is appropriate in terms of conditions attached
to a specific premises licence. It is therefore important that in considering the promotion
of this licencing objective, licencing authorities and responsible authorities focus on the effect
of the licence of activities at the specific premises on persons living and working in
the area around the premises which may be disproportionate and unreasonable. Public
nuisance is given a statutory meaning in many pieces of legislation. It is however not narrowly
defined in the 2003 Act and retains its broad common law meaning.
Beyond the immediate area surrounding a premises, these are matters for
personal responsibility of individuals under the law.
An individual who engages in antisocial behaviour is accountable in their own right.
In completing an operating schedule, applicants are expected to have had regard
to the statement of licencing policy for their area.
They must also be aware of the expectations of the licencing authority and the responsible
authorities as to the steps that are appropriate for the promotion of the licencing objectives
and to demonstrate knowledge of their local area when describing the steps they propose
to take to promote the licencing objectives. Applicants are expected to include positive
proposals in their application on how they will manage any potential risks.
When considering this application, the licencing subcommittee's decision will have human
rights implications in respect of both the applicant and the persons making the relevant
representations which need to be considered equally and fairly so that the decision is
proportionate and the right balance is met. Article 8 and Article 1 of the first protocol
that is the right to respect for private or family life and peaceful enjoyment of property
or possessions should be considered and property and possessions can include a licence. The
The subcommittee is obliged to determine the application in light of the above and any
other material considerations with a view to promoting the four licencing objectives.
The guard must be had to the council's licencing policy, home office guidance issued under
section 182 of the Licencing Act and relevant representations and any evidence presented
at the hearing today. Each application must be considered on its own merits and any conditions
attached to the premises licence must be tailored to the individual style and characteristics
of the premises and events concerned. This is essential to avoid the imposition of disproportionate
and overly burdensome conditions on premises. Standardised conditions should be avoided
and indeed may be unlawful where they cannot be shown to promote the licencing objectives
in any individual case. The subcommittee must avoid duplication of other legal requirements
and should only impose conditions on a premises licence which are appropriate and proportionate
for the promotion of the licencing objectives and where additional and supplementary measures
are required in order to promote the licencing objectives. The following options are available
to the licencing subcommittee today. You may grant the variation application as applied
for, subject to any conditions attached to the premises licence which alter, remove or
add the conditions already imposed on it and are consistent with the operating schedule
and which are considered appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the four licencing objectives
in response to the relevant representations received and any relevant mandatory conditions.
You may reject the whole of the variation application. You may grant the variation application
subject to different conditions for different parts of the premises or licenceable activities
if this is considered appropriate and proportionate to promote the four licencing objectives and
and in response to the representations received. The subcommittee is asked to note that it
may not reject whole or part of the application or modify or add to or vary the existing conditions,
mainly because it considers it desirable to do so. It must be appropriate and proportionate
in order to promote the four licencing objectives and be in response to the representations
received and four reasons must be given for the subcommittee's decision. When determining
an application to ferry a premises licence, the subcommittee must consider the likely
impact of the proposed variations. Any modification to existing conditions or the proposed or
the imposition of additional conditions must be directly linked to the effect of the variation
if granted on the promotion of the four licencing objectives.
I think that concludes my report. I'm happy to take any questions.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:17
That's very good Stacey, it's a good report again that makes life a lot easier for us and those that look in.
Right, but following questions goes, does the applicant wish to put any questions to our licencing officer?
No, not at this stage, thank you.
OK, very kind. Well this is the only stage you can put it at if you want to move down the agenda line.
Okay, no, we have no questions. Okay, thank you. Does the interested party wish to put
questions to the licenced officer? Eugene Walsh, that would be to you, sir. No, thank
you. All clear. Well, now over to my members. Any questions to our licencing officer?
from me, Chair. Thank you. Paul Gryphon, Councillor Gibbon.
No, thank you. Thank you. So now I ask Ms Joanna Riley to present
the applicant's case, if you'd like to proceed. Hello, Mr Chair. So in line with the other
Applicant - 0:33:29
businesses in the area, we would just like to be considered for the extension, obviously,
of the external area. The other businesses in the area don't have the imposed conditions
that we have, which are currently very restrictive, particularly in the warmer months and with
our food service times. So at the moment, the Journeyman operate food service times
until 9 .30 in the evening. And at present, our terrace hours are only until 9pm, which
means we're actually going up to guests midway through their dining experiences and asking
them to move inside. Average dining experience is between one and one and a half hours and
we would just like to be able to offer our guests the opportunity to finish their meals
outside and then obviously at the later time we would close the terrace as per normal.
The nearest business to us to that course, their terrace area closes at 10 .30pm, hence the reason why us as the applicants have decided to put in 10 .30pm as our external time.
We can consider the fact that obviously the noise management plan is relating to planning permission and we seek to obviously look into that post the hearing.
Anything else that you would like to add, Brian?
No, we are responsible restaurateurs in the local area.
We understand what the licence, our objectives are and our responsibility around that.
The fact we've had no comment from the emergency service or the EHO or the police,
then you know we're as far as we know we're operating within the licencing objectives.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:35:22
Thank you very much. Is that the end of your proposal, your presentation? Yes, I don't think
there's anything further that we'd like to add at this stage. Okay, thank you very much. So does the
licencing officer have any questions to put to the applicant? No, I don't. Thank you, Chair. Thank you.
and does the interested party wish to put any questions to the applicant?
No, thank you.
Thank you very much. Now I go down to my members.
If any of you would like to ask questions.
Councillor Gryphon.
Yeah, just a quick query, if I might.
Cllr Paul Griffin - 0:36:04
There was an allegation that you're not operating to the letter of the licencing law,
if you like, there's an allegation in there. It could be founded or unfounded for all I know.
How do you manage complaints? Because there's also the inference that you don't answer the phone
in your busy period when people are when they when you're likely to be making the most
noise for want of a better word. Well we answer our phone, you know, we've got lots of different
Applicant - 0:36:33
ways of being contacted and that's available through our website that's in the public domain,
whether by email or by phone.
We're in the habit of taking bookings by phone,
so it'd be very unusual that we wouldn't take a phone call.
However, that does occasionally happen when we're busy,
but we're certainly... we've had no formal email
and we're certainly unaware of any complaints that have come in.
So as far as we can see,
what we understand that the allegation is unfounded and hearsay.
OK, good. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Councillor Gryphon.
Councillor Gibbons?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:37:04
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:37:08
Yes, I've got a couple of questions. So what is your sort of policy or how do you deal
with people who are making a sort of noise outside after, well currently 9 .30? Do you
have sort of a policy to deal with people who would be causing disturbance?
Applicant - 0:37:31
So obviously at the moment it's till 9pm outside on the terrace so it's the dispersal times are
overseen by the management. The terrace area is currently used by smoking patrons only and that
is under the supervision of the team and the managers. If there was to be a noise disturbance
or something that would be considered public nuisance for example we would obviously be able
to deal with that situation by going up to those people and asking them to be respectable, but also
to be in mind of the public notices that we do have inside to out the site, outside and internally
reminding those guests to be respectable. And then if they were persistent with any nuisance
then we would ask them to leave the premises. As it stands since Blue Pair have been trading
we've actually not had any significant noise or public nuisance complaints.
And, you know, the managers are operating dispersal chimes and the management of the
terrorists incredibly well. You know, I know that there were reports that there were
photographic evidence, but as it stands, as far as we're concerned, that's hearsay and unfounded.
We've not been provided with any further evidence with regards to the mismanagement of our terrorist area.
Can I just add, our team has conflict management training that is routinely,
yeah, so every three to six months.
That's correct. So we actually have a conflict intoxication and noise control training course that all of our team complete,
that work front of house and in the management team.
Under the previous company, obviously significant training was provided and they actually won
Princess Royal Training Award. The manager has actually been moved over from that company
so she's had significant training with regards to conflict management. In terms of onboarding,
we also have something called an authorization of sale document that also offers the team
licencing objectives and guidelines. So they have that information from the day that they
So we're confident that the team have received a relevant training to deal with any disturbances or conflict in that circumstance.
Can I also add too that there's only really use of the outside area when weather permits and when we know the weather is permitting,
which is, you know, as you know, in this country, it's seldom, it's a couple of months a year.
But then we also revise our road trip at that time if we are expecting people to use the outside area.
so we do put the extra staff member on with the increased trade so we do have four a site around that.
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:40:13
Okay that's actually very good to hear all of that. And do you also ensure that people don't
drink outside after, well currently 9pm, only the smoking? So at the moment it is only smoking
Applicant - 0:40:24
patrons only, they're not permitted to bring their drinks outside, they're normally asked to leave
drinks inside and we're happy to supervise those drinks if they're left on the bar.
You know on big events where we do have an influx of people there are normally
door supervisors on anyway and they're supervising that external area.
On the other times when the door supervisors are not on duty, again trade is a little limited,
we don't necessarily have groups of people frequenting our terrace outside the 9pm anyway.
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:41:01
Okay, and one last question. It's just I'm trying to sort of ask you all the things that
have sort of appeared in people's representations. Do you sort of ensure again after nine o 'clock
that the your doors are shut so that noise from recorded music or live music doesn't
disturb the neighbourhood?
Yeah, so at the moment we've got background music on in our premises that's apparently
Applicant - 0:41:23
around 55 to 65 decimals, so it doesn't actually cause airborne noise outside.
We monitor the perimeter on any events as well to make sure that there's not
significant noise escape outside when there are live events or if there is a DJ
or a Christmas party and such. So that's something that we do have in place.
And doors and windows are shut for those times. You know, it's something...
of those things with noise. There could be noise from lots of different things in pubs and
restaurants, it could be simply talking and communicating, it could be ventilation or air
conditioning, it might not only be entertainment. So we've got to consider those factors as well,
particularly as we are in a multi -site area where there are a mixture of residents and obviously
other venues as well. And at the moment I think we manage noise incredibly well. We're not a site
that has a provision of entertainment all the time. Occasionally, yes, we do have events
on and on those times it is really well managed and within our licence.
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:42:30
OK, thank you very much.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:42:33
You're on mute, Chair.
You're on mute, Chair.
That makes a change for me. Excuse me, I have a bit of banter. Just as well, Councillor Gryphon
didn't have his mic turned off, so you're going to be able to talk to me. Anyway, so you know,
there's been a big issue in some of the complaints about noise etc. Do you know,
I've noticed there's some other venues in the area. Do they act as you act? You know,
have they got security on theirs to make sure that when people leave theirs? I'm just intrigued
Applicant - 0:43:19
because it is an issue. No, so no other venue in Jarrah's Cross has the condition where
they have to have the suggestion. Or the suggestion, that's correct. Neither do they have the permitted
hours of use only until 9pm. Yeah, I've got that, yeah. Yeah, so it's, we are the only
Yeah, we just we're just applying for the for our change of licence to be in line with the person in local area and below and below what's currently out there with our current competitors, which I think is reasonable.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:43:50
OK. And then, you know, like again, allegations have been made you don't answer the phone and stuff, but you'd like keep a complaints book if required.
Applicant - 0:43:57
Yeah, so we've got an incident book. We've also got a complaint procedure on email.
Our managers have direct access to the email, both on personal devices and on our desktop computers at site.
We've also got access via the website and also on social media.
So our contact details are completely out in the public domain.
So in the event the site is very busy and we're unable to answer the phone,
So people have a direct link to contact us via email or via social media as well.
Can I just add, I recently attended the Planning Council and I provided my personal phone number
both to the council, the chair and also to the local neighbourhood.
There's a chap that runs the local neighbourhood group.
I volunteered for them to come and meet me or I'd go and meet them at the next meeting.
I provided him with both my personal email address and telephone number about six weeks
I think it was, and I'm yet to hear anything. So I can only sort of, it's the resident neighbourhood
group it is, yeah, so I'm yet to hear anything. So I'm very surprised at some of the statements
that are coming in, particularly that I know some of the neighbours are part of that group,
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:45:07
and my number is well circulated. Well, like you say, at least you're addressing the issue to try
and do what you can. And then the last one I was really intrigued on, I'm going to be picking this
later. So when you serve in a pub or out of a pub, so just say last orders is called at 11 .30
and then you're given like a half hour leniency for people to drink up. I was intrigued when you
said about dining outside, so because you don't know how fast or slow people eat. So if someone
went out there at like at the prison, I'm just looking at this in my head on something, if
someone went out there, like you serve somebody, like if you're looking for half ten and if
we did permit it, but someone went out there at nine o 'clock with their starter and then
main course, you know, some of us could eat it. Does that happen frequently? I'm just
intrigued with what you said. I need to… It's about the customer journey. If somebody
Applicant - 0:46:11
coming in particularly late at half 10, sorry at half 8 or 9, we would say to them you know
we have a licenced provision we'll have to move inside at that time or otherwise we can see you
in time if you prefer not to move, which is currently what we're doing now. But you know we
you know just when the sun shines actually we've got to stop actually serving food out there you
know at eight o 'clock you know because as you say people take various times to consume a meal so
and it just is why we're asking for the variances. And it just means that we're a little bit more
restricted, you know, it actually puts people off coming to us in the
warmer months because they can't use the outdoor area later in the evening.
And they do go to our competitors, which is, you know, rather unfair on us to have this
condition imposed where we're actually losing trade in the warmer months.
Okay, thank you very much. That's the last of my questions, so I'm
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:58
obliged for answering those. Thank you.
Thank you, Chair.
Very good. So now I'm going to go to invite the interested parties. We only have one today to present their case. Mr UG Walsh, if you'd like to come forward and present your case, please.
Objector - 0:47:18
Thank you, Chair. Well, as you know, I have objected to this application and I'm objecting to the German's application to vary the licence condition and the linked noise management plan,
because I'm a neighbour whose house immediately adjoins their site.
We're in a very unusual situation in as much as the journeyman is clearly on a high street in a commercial area,
but the houses immediately adjacent at the back of the journeyman are in fact part of a conservation area.
So the journeyman opened just for context around two years, ten months ago, following a contentious application for change of use.
This was granted, subject to the Environmental Health Officer's restrictions, which included the closing of the patio on all doors and windows at 2100 hours to protect the amenity of the neighbouring properties.
The noise management plan was then agreed to further safeguard the local area and the residents, and it is important to note, please, that the parts of the noise plan which the applicant now wishes to vary
are the ones applied by the Council's Environmental Health Officer in perpetuity.
Other similar businesses do indeed have restrictions and responsibilities in line with the journeyman,
depending on their location and circumstances.
However, the time restriction reflects the proximity of the journeyman to residential properties within the conservation area.
I would also like to point out that the location of the journeyman, it's surrounded by high buildings, so therefore the noise bounces off and travels.
If you look at the other premises in the town, such as the pack horse, the apple tree or the eathrop, all licenced premises, they do not have that problem in their surrounding area.
So the problem is then that the building has full patio doors across the entire frontage
and it could cause undue disturbance after 2100 with all patron noise, service noise and music noise
carrying into the street and local housing. Despite the noise management plan and the commitments given by the gentleman,
they do hold regular live music nights, parties with DJs, etc, which the applicant has just recognised,
and they do not use the Loius Limiter system that they have. The staff do seem
to be unaware of the restrictions. They do not answer the phone if the
place is very busy, which is quite understandable, but the fact is they do not answer it, and if the place is noisy.
And they do not make sufficient efforts to ensure a quiet and orderly closing, unfortunately.
The restrictions as they stand are regularly ignored in our experience or flouted.
We have chosen however to engage and work with the staff rather than to make formal complaints.
I would also point out that FAGO next door for example have a licencing restriction to 530 and that is also in line with taking care of, taking due regard of the immunity of the local area.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:50:41
Thank you very much Mr Walsh. I'm sure there'll be some questions to come forward. So does
the Licencing Student Officer have any questions they'd like to take to the interested party?
I don't have any questions, thank you Chair. Thank you. Does the applicant wish to put
any questions to the interested party?
Just a couple of comments really.
Playgo's coffee shop, which is very,
Applicant - 0:51:09
lot of licenced place that's similar to us.
And our events are in line with our licencing conditions
currently, and you know, the music and the bands
that do play do use a noise limiter.
They do that as part of one of the requests
that we have for them. But other than that, there's some as far as we know, there are no other evidence.
And I'm not sure how much engagement we've had with the local residents.
Personally, as I said, I've provided my number and details to the neighbourhood group and I'm yet to be contacted.
So I'm disappointed to hear that you feel that you've made contact. Yet no one has reached out to us personally.
And I think it's important to recognise that I know that the representations mentioned
the conservation area. You know, the conservation area is very wide and includes, you know,
lots of other businesses and retail sites as well. So to be mindful again about going
back to being considered in line with the other businesses in the area, they don't have
that same conservation area and I think that you know it needs to be reflected in in our hours as
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:52:27
well. Okay thank you very much. I'm going to go to members for any questions but I'd like to go
first please and then members can go some and then I'll come back on some. Mr Walsh I'd like to ask
Well, well presented from you, but I'd like to ask, like you say, they have DJs and bands there and it's quite noisy and stuff like that.
And like you said earlier on, because the where it's built is in a bit of a tunnel along there with properties both sides.
But you made a statement and said they don't use their noise limiter. How do you know that?
Applicant - 0:53:09
because the staff have told me that, the manager has told us that they didn't know they had a molloy's limiter system
and they don't use it. I have that on the meeting from the manager of the question.
OK, then my second question is, is as well, and I take this all on board, and you said you made some complaints,
but with something as serious as what you're saying, I'm just, I know I'm drilling you
slightly here, but why did you not bring that to the environmental health team rather than take it
up with the in -house or even take it up with the owner? Why, I just struggling why you didn't do that?
We're good to bring up with the local health and safety team. Well, for the environment team, yeah.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I understand that, I understand, I understand the question.
Well, you see, you may excuse me taking a somewhat cynical approach,
Objector - 0:54:08
going through a formal channel for something, and I'd rather take the approach throughout my life,
but I'd rather engage with the local staff, which is what I did, which is why, you know,
I understand what the applicant is saying in terms of their phone number,
Nobody knows who the applicants, the individuals are,
because I've engaged with the staff on the premises.
Yeah, the manager rests on it.
Now, I do accept that they have a business to run,
they have overheads to manage,
and they don't always have staff floating about
who can hand to answer the phone
on a busy Friday or Saturday night
because the noise has gone crazy.
And we're very amenable to that.
That's not the issue.
But we were very surprised when we said,
look, there's a noise limiter system,
there are limits in this book.
And when the staff were not aware of that.
So what was the point in going to environmental health?
I didn't really see much point.
I'd rather the staff said to us, yes, oh, thank you.
We didn't know there's noise limiter,
we know there's noise limiter,
and we'll switch it on and it won't happen again.
So that's the approach we've always tried to take.
you know, but you know it's I think it's good to label this let me let me try and put it into that.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:55:30
Okay, right for the interim colleagues would you like to put any questions across to
the interested parties? I don't think I have anything for Mr Walsh. Thank you, Councillor
Given microphone, Councillor Given. I know, I'll try to find my mouse, it sometimes vanishes,
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:55:55
but I've found it now. Yeah, I just, so how often, Mr Wells, would you say that the noise
disturbs you, sort of, so that you maybe can't sleep or it affects your quality of life? How,
sort of, how many times a week would you say it affects you? How many times a week does the
noise affect us? Well, you know, if anything, it's very much from time to time, you know,
Objector - 0:56:15
throughout the year. You know, it can be two, three times a week at peak times. Other times,
you know, it can be quiet for a few weeks. When there's DJs and live music on, not live
music on, clearly that's extremely noisy. And the noise carries up because you see there's
gap between the building adjacent building and the journeyman so you have a kind of tunnel effect
in pack horse road and then he bounces back and it goes into the former way
which you know and there are no barriers in between we just have hedging because again if
I looked at you know I have looked at you know building walls and etcetera but it's you know
it's a complicated planning process but actually because we're in a conservation area it would be
easier for the commercial buildings the other side to build a 20 -foot wall than me because I
can't build a 20 -foot wall that's prohibited.
Do you have any of the other venues, Disturbio? Is it only this one?
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:57:18
It's only that one. There have been occasions in the past from Fago, but Fago do some things
Objector - 0:57:24
like to like eight o 'clock at night or something like that, you know, and it's very, and in fact
they hardly do them anymore, but none of the other businesses do. No. Because the packhorse
doesn't do as it was called the Wildwood restaurant and the Youth Op doesn't do music nights you know so no.
So if they sort of abided by their noise,
sort of I can't remember the term of it now is the noise elatement or whatever
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:57:54
conditions, if they operated till 10 30 do you think that would make much difference to you or not?
I don't understand the question. You think if the extension is granted and they're allowed
to make noise till 10 .30, would it make a difference? Of course it would. It would make
a massive difference.
Okay, thank you.
Are you happy with that, Councillor Gibbons?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:58:24
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 0:58:26
Yeah, I just wanted to cheque that as well, Chair. Is that the question that you were
answering Councillor Gibbon or are you trying to ascertain the effect on Mr Walsh in relation
to noise if the application was granted such that the terrace could be used until 2230?
Yes that was the question provided that they regulated the behaviour of the people who
were outside so you know they weren't having like royal parties and dancing and shouting
and stuff. Right. They were just outside there sort of quietly eating. I just wondered. Yeah
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:59:08
so I think Mr Walsh, Councillor Gibbon is asking that if the panel were minded to grant
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 0:59:17
the applicant's application and permitted them to use the outside terrace until 2230
230, say for smoking, what impact potentially that would have on you as a nearby resident?
Yeah, so perhaps you could just answer that if possible.
Yes, sure. Well, as it stands, that is allowed. They are allowed to go and smoke on that terrace
after nine o 'clock.
Objector - 0:59:50
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 0:59:55
No, yeah, but the application is for that terrace to be used for customers who are eating and drinking up until
22 .30 and then after that time just for patron smoking. So there is a change there. So if you could just speak to any potential impact then that may help the panel and their decision making.
Absolutely. So let me address that. So the first thing I'd like to say is that, and again,
Objector - 1:00:22
I accept that this is anecdotal, I don't know the percentage of food that is served by the
journeyman on the terrace as opposed to inside. And furthermore, I do not know the percentage
of food served on an evening on the terrace as opposed to lunchtime. All I can say is
that I have never seen patrons dining in the evening
on the terrace at the journeyman.
So that's the first thing, it's always drinking.
And what I'm saying to you is it is difficult enough
at this moment in time for the journeyman
to manage that terrace after nine o 'clock,
particularly Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights,
to ensure compliance with the noise management plan
as it stands and therefore, and rowdy enough,
and therefore if that extension is granted that they seek, I believe it will have a significant
increase. In fact I think it would be intolerable for ourselves and our neighbours on Fulmer Way
because it affects a number of us. I am only here speaking for myself.
It also I believe affects some of the neighbours on West Common, but again I'm speaking for myself
as a neighbour so it will have a significant impact.
Happy with that Councillor Gibbon, thank you. Yes thank you very much.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:01:50
No problem. I see that the applicant has come back normally on procedure we go through and you've
passed your space but as I'm still in that area with the interested party I'll allow you to
I'll ask a question.
Thank you, Chair, for being very accommodating.
I just want to clarify a couple of points that Mr Walsh just made.
Applicant - 1:02:23
He said that he's never witnessed people eating outside,
yet in his statement it does say he witnessed people eating outside after 9pm.
So I just want to clarify, has he seen people, hasn't seen people?
I'm not quite sure which is the correct answer.
So secondly, we understand his address is considerably far distance,
nearly over half a mile away.
And we understand from that sort of distance,
you're only going to hear very loud engines, fireworks or amplified music.
So I'm struggling to understand how people eating a two -course meal
would impact that noise level at that distance.
But there's just a point.
Thank you chair for allowing us. Can I address that? Yeah absolutely Mr Wilf, yeah. Yeah sure
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:03:11
Objector - 1:03:13
sure sure. I didn't say that people eating carries noise. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that.
I've never seen anybody eating on the terrace of an evening. That's the first thing and secondly
I'm not half a mile away. I'm about 20 yards away because my house is directly behind the journeyman.
Directly, so we share a fence. So I'm not half a mile, I'm 20, 30 yards. So the noise from the terrace
bounces off the buildings and carries right down the side entrance into our rear bedrooms.
OK. It doesn't travel backwards.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:03:49
Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you very much, Mr Walsh. Mr Walsh, I got a couple of more questions
maybe just one. So within the area I noticed, you know, we're we're sighting on the journeyman as we
stand but you know we talk about the uh surrounding area and I noticed as you look out from the
journeyman to the left um there's a sort of pubby rest pub sort of to the left I can't remember what
was called and I see this yeah and there's some other
journeys across that area is quite a busy area there's other activities there
and does that does that noise also affect you at a later time?
I'm just intrigued looking at the bigger scope picture
you know because notice that some of them are open till 12
as well so do you get any noise response from them?
Objector - 1:04:47
So the short answer is no, there is only one premises that is open late, when I say later than 7 o 'clock in the evening, and that is the premises currently called the Pack Horse which was called the Wild Wood, and beforehand was called the many years ago the Pack Horse.
But the pack horse was a traditional pub, then it changed to Wildwood, which is a kind of pub,
it's more of a dining venue and there's no reverting, it's just a rebranding job called the pack horse again,
but more dining. So no, there's no very little noise, no noise out of that place at all.
Because don't forget the corner of the Wy -wood, it faces directly onto the common.
So the noise, any noise of patrons exiting, it travels out into the common.
I can't speak for any of the residents on West Common adjacent to that, but my understanding is it's tolerable. There's no significant noise.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:05:51
And then also, are there any takeaways in the area of...
Objector - 1:06:01
Yes, yes there are. On Marcham Way there is a pizza and an Indian takeaway. There are two takeaways there.
So, and they have a track, particularly weekends, a lot of traffic,
service stations, etc.
But their peak times are up to about 9.
So there's no noise from them after the nation.
In fact, they are just taking away traffic noise.
It's not people usually.
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 1:06:33
Chair, perhaps I can just suggest that Mr Walsh repeats that last part of his comment,
because the noise, yeah, the sound wasn't very good and I don't think all of the parties
and certainly people at home would have been able to understand that point.
Do you know what, I'm glad Laura and I have you as my legal team to micromanage me to
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:06:50
keep me on track. I totally agree with you there as well. So Mr Walsh, this is why our
officers are so precious to us, making sure we abide by the rules and the law, etc. So
Mr Walsh, if you could just repeat that, please.
Absolutely no problem at all. So you asked about takeaways in the area. Yes, there are
two on Marsham Way, which is just a couple hundred yards down from the journeyman on
the right hand side, travelling towards Chalfins and Peter. There's a very busy Indian and
a pizza takeaway and particularly weekends, you know, Thursday, Friday, Friday, Saturday
night, very, very busy indeed. The noise from them is mostly traffic, people parking round
about, but the peak, the peak is about, is about nine -ish. After a lot of their business,
you know, falls away very, very considerably. And there's no, there's no resident noise,
noise from people it's it's cars coming and going. Okay so yeah so like you said it's it's more car
Objector - 1:08:02
noise than personal noise. Yes yes indeed. Okay thank you very much um that's the only last
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:08:05
question I've got um for Mr Walsh. Laura I need to ask a question because following procedural rules
I've got a question I'd like to go back to the applicant with on Sonic.
As chairman, does that allow me?
It does, Chair. If you can just bear with me a moment.
Let me just double cheque.
I think, Chair, if you are content that you need to revisit a party's representations
Laura Heller - Lawyer - 1:08:43
in order to ensure that the panel have all the information to conduct a fair hearing,
then I can't see any issue with you doing that and departing from the usual order of business.
You know what I'm like at times, I like to be as fair as we possibly can and I'm grateful
for your answer. If I could go back to the outcome please because something that's been said that
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:09:09
that touched me a bit was the noise limiter that you've got within your premises.
If you could be a bit more detailed of what sort of noise limiter because
there's licencing we know there's like there's a light controlled noise limiter where you have
an amber light system it goes green red when they get too noisy it goes red it just is a pre -warner
or is it the noise limiters that is near a stage or wherever and DJs or bands plug into that system
and that controls them? So could you just define which one of those that is please? I'm sure you
understand my question. We have one that they plug into when it gets to a certain decibel,
Applicant - 1:10:00
I don't know the decibel exactly, but I think it's around 65 there, should cut out.
That's the background one.
So, ordinarily in pubs, background music is played to about 55 to 65 decimals, which is relatively normal for any sort of business,
including restaurants and pubs and cafe, for example.
Amplified music is going to inevitably be a little bit more.
So that's normally around the 85 mark.
Now, we have to be considerate of the fact that our perimeter cheques have to take into account that some of the noise limiters and the settings on the noise limiters have to play a part in what we can hear outside.
So when a DJ or a band comes in, we have those conversations prior to the event taking place.
We do sound cheques where we would walk across the road and we would walk around to see if the noise escapes and how loud that noise is.
And then the noise limit will be set to a comfortable level where we're feeling that it won't cause a disturbance to the residents or externally.
And that's what we do.
So you set the noise limit to what you feel is that's not being set by our environmental team.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:11:21
Right. Correct. OK. OK, thank you very much for answering that one for me.
Right, thank you. So as we move on then I'm going to carry on.
We're now going to move to closing submissions, should we wish to make any. We'll be going licence officer, the applicant and then interested parties.
So for closing submissions, Licencing Officer Stacey Bellah, would you like to make one?
Stacey Bella - Licensing Officer - 1:11:50
Yes, please. Thank you, Churchill. It's just to address one point that's come up, just
regarding the noise limiter. I know there's reference to it in the current noise management
plan, but just from a licencing perspective in terms of licenced conditions, just a reminder,
obviously that conditions that relate to live and recorded music are not enforceable between
8am and 11pm due to the deregulations that apply and that when we're considering this application
we just need to be mindful that we consider only the application that's been sought. So
obviously the amendment of the conditions to permit the use of the terrace to a later time
and to make those changes to the door supervisor requirements. Yeah, that's all.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:12:39
Thank you, very kind. Thank you very much. Now the applicant, any closing submissions,
Jana Riley, Reynolds Croft, have you got any you'd like to bring across?
Applicant - 1:12:52
Yeah, so just going back to the area in general, obviously, Jerrars Cross is not purely a residential
area. I mean, we've got a mixed commercial centre here with lots of different restaurants, bars and
pubs. You know, the future of Jarras Cross alone, I mean, at the moment there's currently,
you know, several outlets in the area that are being leased or being sold under the conditions
that it can be a bar or a restaurant. So I think the area in general benefits from having
establishments like ours. I mean, alone last year, I think it was £370 ,000, Gerald's Cross
was funded in business rates. So we're a direct contributor to the business rates. And that
helps and supports the community with roads, with lighting, with the common. And as licensees
and obviously business operators, we do want to make sure that we are a part of this community
and we are contributing to this community and we feel that we have done so well and you know and
in terms of the last what two years, ten I think it's two years, ten months now that we've been
trading and there have been no significant issues and all we want to do is be able to utilise
the site and make sure that it comes in line with the other businesses in the area.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:14:14
Thank you very much. Very kind. Thank you. And now I move to the interested party. Mr
Eugene Walsh, if you'd like to give us any closing submission.
Yes, I've, myself and my family have lived in Gerald's Cross since 2000. So this year
Objector - 1:14:26
will be our 26th anniversary in the town. We heavily support, we do all our shopping
locally, all our grocery shopping, we frequent the restaurants, we know the restauranteurs
locally and we are huge supporters of the town community.
Have we finished Mr Walsh? You seem to have disappeared.
Oh, I think my air points have just died. Can you hear me now?
Yeah, I think we might have missed you before you finished your...
Right, okay, so I was just...
Something's wrong.
...quarters of the town. Having agreed a noise plan a couple of years ago with the German,
we are just deeply disappointed that they have come back on a plan that we thought was agreed
in perpetuity and to extend and do a noise disturbance after nine o 'clock at night.
Okay, anything else you'd like to say? No, thank you, that's it. Mr Walsh, thank you very much
for that as well. If you could turn your mic off that'd be appreciated.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:15:49
So that concludes the evidence in this matter. Before I conclude the hearing, is there any
party present who does not consider they have been given a fair hearing? Is everybody happy
with the hearing? Yeah. Okay. Right, as we move forward. Before I go into our next section,
I would like to say to both applicant and the interested parties, thank you very much for attending the meeting today with the application, with your concerns, etc.
Promoting the application at the same time. Very well behaved, you know, sometimes they can get quite tight.
but as we move forward, I hope it all sort of works
if we decide to allow the application forward or not.
But we know Jared's Cross is a lovely area
and hope it blossoms and continues to blossom
as it has done over many years.
But anyway, the subcommittee will now retire together
with the legal advisor and democratic services officer
for this matter to be determined.
The subcommittee will come to a decision
which will be sent to the applicant
and all other parties who submitted relevant presentations within the time limits set out
in the regulations together with details over any right of appeal. So please can all parties
other than the members, the legal advisor and democratic services now leave the virtual hearing
and once again thank you very much for your attendance today. Thank you.
Thanks chair. Thank you chairman. Thank you.
Thank you.
Is the webcast finished, Harry?
Just waiting for confirmation.
Thank you.