Interactive webcast player

Thames Valley Police and Crime Panel
Friday, 19th June 2026 at 10:30am

 
Share this agenda point
  1. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  2. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  3. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  4. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  2. Cllr Geoff Saul - West Oxfordshire District Council
  3. Matthew Barber - PCC
  4. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  5. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  6. Matthew Barber - PCC
  7. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  8. Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council
  9. Matthew Barber - PCC
  10. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  11. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  12. Matthew Barber - PCC
  13. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  14. Matthew Barber - PCC
  15. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  16. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  17. Matthew Barber - PCC
  18. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  19. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  20. Matthew Barber - PCC
  21. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  22. Cllr Ed Hume - Milton Keynes City Council
  23. Matthew Barber - PCC
  24. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  6. Matthew Barber - PCC
  7. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  6. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  7. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  8. Cllr Zafar Satti - Slough Borough Council
  9. Matthew Barber - PCC
  10. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  11. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  12. Matthew Barber - PCC
  13. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  14. Matthew Barber - PCC
  15. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  16. Cllr Finn Mc Goldrick - Reading Borough Council
  17. Matthew Barber - PCC
  18. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  19. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  20. Matthew Barber - PCC
  21. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  6. Matthew Barber - PCC
  7. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  8. Matthew Barber - PCC
  9. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  4. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  5. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  6. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  7. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  8. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  9. Matthew Barber - PCC
  10. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  11. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  12. Matthew Barber - PCC
  13. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point
  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Matthew Barber - PCC
  4. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  5. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  6. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  7. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  8. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  9. Matthew Barber - PCC
  10. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  11. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  12. Matthew Barber - PCC
  13. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  14. Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council
  15. Matthew Barber - PCC
  16. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  17. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  18. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  19. Matthew Barber - PCC
  20. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
Share this agenda point

Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:00:00
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome, Mr. Barbour. First of all, I would like to
thank and welcome the new members to the panel. I would also like to thank those members that
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:00:12
are not here anymore, who served us very well over the last few years and contributed an

1 Election of Chair for 2026/27

awful lot to the panel. As you appreciate, the first item on the agenda is the election
of the chair followed by the vice chair. I will pass over to Khalid to orchestrate that,
please. Yes, hello, good morning. This is the annual
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 0:00:31
meeting where we we appoint a chair and a vice chair so could up item one
election of chair any nominations please
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 0:00:42
and thank you I would like to nominate sir Peter gammon for chair please is
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 0:00:48
that seconded seconded any other nominations I take it that is unanimous
I will now take the floor to the Vice Chair.
Please.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:00:59
Thank you.
Thank you very much indeed. I hope to serve you again as well
as I tried to in the past year or so.

2 Appointment of Vice-Chair for 2026/27

There is now the appointment of the Vice Chair.
Do we have any nominations please for the Vice Chair?
I will nominate Councillor Newton.
Would anybody like to second Councillor Newton?
That nearly is unanimous.
Anybody else who would like to be nominated as Vice Chair?
No?
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:01:30
Thank you.
I'll take that as Councillor Newton is now the Vice Chair again.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Moving on to the agenda.

3 Apologies for Absence

The apologies for absence, please, Khalid.
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 0:01:44
Yes, Chair, we've got a few.
We've got Councillors Pickering from Bracknell, Councillor Waite from Buckinghamshire, Councillor
Stevenson from West Berkshire.
They're the ones that submitted apologies, Chair.
Thank you very much indeed.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:02:00
Moving on to declaration.
Sorry, I think Councillor Gregory is attempting to dial in but I'm not sure if she's managed
to yet.
Councillor Epps, you had your hand raised.
Are there any declarations of interest?

4 Declarations of Interest

5 Minutes

In respect to the minutes of the meeting held on the 13th of March, can I take those as
being read as correct, please?
Thank you.

6 Public Question Time

In respect of public question time, there are no members of the public this time for
asking any questions.
So we will move on now to the police and crime commissioners annual report monitoring of
priorities of the police and crime plan.

7 Police and Crime Commissioner's Annual Report - Monitoring of Priorities of Police and Crime Plan

A short overview, please, Mr Barber.
Certainly Chairman, you have got the annual report in front of you, happy to take any
questions.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:03:21
Superb, Mr Barber.
Has anybody got any questions, Councillor Sol?
Thank you, Chair, and congratulations on your re -election.
Cllr Geoff Saul - West Oxfordshire District Council - 0:03:32
Mr Barber, the report highlights reductions in several crime types, so vehicle crime down
9%, rural crime down 34 % year on year, so lots of positives there, burglary down 4%,
and the disc retail crime platform, which is some of the things I sort of, I picked
up.
So are you able to evidence that these improvements are the direct result of PCC funded interventions
rather than just wider national trends or policing activity?
So I think in some cases yes, in some cases no, to be frank.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:04:12
So if you look at the work we're doing around vehicle crime, we're starting some of that
work now has been some activity going on for a few months, but there is a new strategy
that we launched recently that follows the fact that we've already seen reductions
around vehicle crime.
So, I don't claim to take credit for that trend, but we still know there is too much
vehicle crime going on, so further reductions are what we would seek to achieve from that.
I think in other areas we can attribute better to activity that's gone on.
If you look at rural crime, for example, the creation of our excellent rural crime task
force in Thames Valley, which has been award -winning nationally and recognised as such, we do quite
a lot of partnership meetings.
I think there's two things I could point to.
One just statistically, where we've seen reductions in rural crime, where others have
seen either lower reductions or actual increases, sometimes those have been on the border of
Thames Valley area which suggests there's some displacement which is unfortunate and
why we work with our partners.
I don't want to just displace crime out of Thames Valley, I'd like to just tackle
it completely, but we've definitely seen that in statistics and then anecdotally talking
to those partners, certainly in the world of rural crime where there are known organised
crime groups that Thames Valley have been bearing down on within our force area and
we've seen an increase in their activity elsewhere.
So there has been some displacement in those, but it's undoubtedly been as a result of
some of that work.
So yes, in some areas we can, in some areas we can't, or the longitudinal trends will
be so significant.
So we've seen significant reductions in knife crime over the last few years.
I would attribute some of that to the increased and effective use of stop and search in Thames
Valley, and particularly Operation Deter and Opt Deter Youth, which are really focused
on bearing down on knife carrying. I would absolutely attribute some of the reduction
to that. But we've also got longer -term trends. So we're doing lots of work with schools around
education. Can we attribute work in schools around the choices programme, for example,
of the transition between primary to secondary directly to a reduction in crime? Well, no,
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:06:38
because it's long -term preventative work that we would seek to do. So I can't point to a
Mr Ashad.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:06:44
I would like to ask about the vehicle crime as well.
Would you consider giving out pouches so that the relay blocks the key?
Because I can see there has been an increase over the last year of just breaking in, going
through the car.
That's the first question.
And the second is about knife crime.
I've been told it's been the lowest it has ever been in Oxford.
but I was watching a video in Manchester where that teacher tried to save a people's life.
Would you consider searching, like, with the local authority obviously through schools
in the mornings so they don't bring them into school, would you consider that step or is
it something that you don't think is, you know, and work more on the preventative?
I know you're saying, like, we have speakers going into schools and, you know, that's one
of my visions that I'll be doing this year but yeah that's something I wanted
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:07:43
to find out. Okay so on vehicle crime to start with yes we do provide quite a lot
of preventative equipment to people the pouches to some extent I think there are
some challenges around how widely we can provide the right piece of equipment
there are lots of different techniques and tactics that criminals will use and
say there's a risk I think around things like RF pouches for keyless cars. They have some
benefit and if you've got that car that's helpful but it wouldn't help if that's not
your car and criminals will find other ways around it. So we do provide some free crime
prevention equipment through my office and the force. The force are often the ones dishing
it out through our neighbourhood teams but we did actually over the last two years rather
than individual force, individual parts of the force sourcing their own bits of crime
prevention equipment, we've taken that into the OPCC, so we've got some of the economies
of scale by making big purchasing of crime prevention equipment and then supplying back
to the force.
So we do do that.
Most recently we're focusing on property marking because we know there's a real issue around
tool theft and so we encourage and dish out for free property marking kits that are used
by our Royal Crime Task Force. They're available free. We've had a number of events where
we will go to people, so we go to ScrewFix and Wix and other places. You know, someone's
just bought some tools, go and market here and there, and we'll go with Select a DNA,
the provider who are showing people how to do it at the time. So very, very keen to be
proactive around that fund. That's very much part of the strategy.
In terms of knife crime, yes, we have done and do do searches within schools. We have
a number of mobile knife arches which are used in a variety of locations from train
stations to major public events. They are there because we do have big events, Royal
events in Windsor, Reading Festival, Royal Ascot, etc. So we've got the equipment that
is therefore available to be used in other locations and it has been used in schools.
I do think it is very important to work with the schools to identify where there is a real
risk. I think the idea of knife arches at every single school every single day
would cause unnecessarily alarm because our figures are really good and
thankfully the risk around knife crime in Thames Valley is low and it is lower
now than it was three or four years ago we should be proud of that it doesn't
mean there's no risk we need to take a proportionate approach but where there
are schools which have had issues often at the request of the school where
where head teachers will think that actually having the police come in and run a knife -arch operation
will actually help them in terms of discipline and deterrence within the school. That is absolutely possible.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:10:27
Councillor Fawcett.
Yeah, thank you.
Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council - 0:10:31
Last year I asked a question about what analysis was being done on road traffic collision statistics and
whether research was being done into their differences in trends within the
within the region.
This year's report talks about the ongoing rise in road traffic fatalities and serious
injuries.
I first of all wanted to cheque whether that was referring to the 2025 figures that have
very recently been released.
I think it's still in provisional form, or whether that was referring to the 2024 figures.
But either way, I'd like to repeat the question and ask what has been done in the last 12
months to identify what's behind those trends and the trend in the provisional 2025 figures
is that there's been a significant drop in people being killed or seriously injured in
Oxfordshire but a rise across the rest of the Thames Valley.
And I'm interested to know what work is being done to identify the reasons for those differences
and to identify what can be learned about which local policies are effective and which
are not.
Thank you.
So I think the annual report will refer to the 2024 figures just because of the timing
when the 2025 ones are released.
For anybody watching that will seem very delayed when we're in 2026, but I think that's
the reality of those figures.
Looking at 2025, and Councillor Epps was at our latest road safety partnership meeting
where we looked at the more up -to -date figures, well, you're right, we have seen a national
trend with something of an increase from 24 to 25. Oxfordshire has indeed seen a reduction
which is naturally welcome. There is still work that needs to be done so we don't have
an answer to the question that you did ask quite rightly and it's something I've been
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:12:16
very keen on, Councillor Epps will attest to this, that I'm very keen that we delve
down into the causality of those killed and seriously injured incidents on our roads and
and understand multi causality as well because I have no doubt Councillor Fawcett you're
referring to speed in terms of that and of course to be really clear safe speeds are
obviously relevant to saving people's lives. But we also need to look at some of the other
factors so for example there are there are instances where which I can think of which
have happened in areas where there's been a 20 or 30 mile an hour speed limit and the
assumption is at that speed and it may well be the case but actually when you
look at it the driver was also on their phone and had they been driving at 20 or
25 miles an hour they would still have had that incident it may well have just
been just as fatal in those circumstances so we really need to delve
down into this. There is a there is a piece of work through that through the
road safety forum which said Councillor Epps is now very much involved with
trying to work down into the individual cases.
There are some sensitivities around that because of what is published, but we have a volume
– voluminous information on it, so that's part of the issue about the delay.
I want proper causality data to be available to the police, local authorities, fire service,
ambulance service, et cetera.
We're also looking at having a public -facing dashboard which shares some of that information
a bit more but actually getting the facts are much more important but there are, we
still haven't got that level of detail that I would like and we're relying on other partners
including Ambulance and Fire to provide all of that but the work is ongoing.
I'll go to Council Reps first please.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:14:06
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 0:14:09
I've been tempted to follow in and I was able to join the Road Safety Partnership meeting
although it came at rather short notice
and I wasn't able to stay for the whole thing
due to a prior commitment.
There's clearly a lot of data that we can delve into
around those road safety issues
and it was a focus of the previous meeting.
But I think there are challenges
where there've been speed -related interventions taken
and it's covered in this and the police and crime panels report, those have been generally
well received.
I didn't think I was that quiet.
And that's on my note.
But nonetheless, there do continue to be road traffic fatalities, including in Oxfordshire,
including in areas where there are 20, 30 mile an hour limits, including areas where
the commissioner may have particular geographical interest.
I I don't know within within this what is being done to look at performance
By comparison with other forces. I mean, I've always been struck by I think it's 2024 data that in Cornwall
There were 11 ,000 tickets issued for speeding in 20 miles an hour zones yet in the entire Thames Valley area, which is much bigger
There were fewer than 200 and I think the number of offences recording 30 zones has also fallen as a long -term trend
I'm supportive of anything that can be done in terms of tasking and we talked about a
sort of triage function to look at individual issues particularly at town parish level but
what's being done to look at that broader data and what's the evidence to say that the
Thames Valley approach that is if I'm being diplomatic somewhat more light touch on some
of these speed related offences is any better than what we're seeing in other forces?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:16:10
So, I think in making those comparisons, we need to make sure we're comparing apples
with apples. I think the – which – I'm not sure which year you quoted for the 20
mile an hour – is it 2022? I think it's 2024. It was the last date
for ICES. 2024. So, I would need to go back and cheque which
data – and we certainly have seen tickets issued in the 20 mile an hour areas. I go
back to the point I've made publicly before and indeed at that road safety meeting, which
is changing limits are entirely up to local authorities. They do not necessarily come
with increased enforcement because there's no more resource to enforce them and as the
Department of Transport says they should be largely self -enforcing. That doesn't mean
they can't or won't be enforced and I think the numbers do reflect that. I mean you pick
up Cornwall, Cornwall has no motorways, Thames Valley has the largest motorway network of
any police force in the country. That doesn't mean we should ignore our local roads but
it also means the level of risk that the force has to manage on our roads is going to be
inevitably different. And so I don't think that's necessarily a comparison that one can
make across the country.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:17:14
Yeah, Councillor Ebsle, just one point. Can you keep the mic very close to you? I think
these are very sensitive and we obviously want the public to watch this afterwards.
Of course, it's new kit. I'm very, very happy to project. Part of the point I was trying
to make was it's not just about overall numbers, it's that the numbers of tickets issued in
20 and 30 mile an hour limits has fallen in the Thames Valley area as a long -term trend
across recent years.
And it's that evidence base that I think is important to cheque.
We know that the 30 mile an hour collision is more likely to be fatal than 20 miles an
hour.
But if you've got people driving at speeds well over 30, it doesn't matter frankly if
in a 20 or 30 limit it still it still needs to be enforced.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:18:04
I'm not sure there's a question in there but yeah but yes obviously I agree we
should continue to do speed enforcement it is an important
part of what Tems Valley Police do it is part of that
fatal five. I merely emphasise the point that in terms
of comparisons between forces you need to make sure we're comparing
like -for -like road networks. I'm sure the data is out there somewhere but
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:18:25
Obviously there are various, there's 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 70 mile hour speed limits.
I presume that the speed enforcement department have to allocate their time or time across
all of those speed limits, whether it be motorway bridges, the 50 mile hours on the A34, the
40 miles an hour which are getting longer.
It might be interesting to note or know how much time is allocated to each of the types
of speed enforcement.
I don't know whether that's possible at all, but whether 10 % is done to urban areas
at 30 or below, the 40, the 50, 60s and 70s, I don't know whether that would actually
produce anything or whether that would make a mist of the figures.
So I'm happy chairman if Calla could know that to take away and see if the data is possible
to be sliced in in that way. I won't give a firm commitment because I want to cheque
what what the data is. You're right though that inevitably the enforcement of speed and
all other types of road enforcement are done based on risk and that will obviously change
on on the nature of the road. So I think whether it's recorded in a way that's easy to slice
by speed limit of an area or whether it's available to slice by nature of the road and
the risk from its location that might be more likely.
And as I've said this before, the issues that we see on some of our local roads are of course
very important and that's why TVP do enforce and will enforce around not just speed but
also use of mobile phones, dangerous driving, the drink and drugs, the seat belts, all of
those other things that can cause fatal incidents. But when we do look at the
numbers and this is probably a year or so out of date now but if you looked
across Thames Valley over a period of about 20 years there are tragically on
roads on our local roads that are 30 miles an hour or less now if you go back
over 20 years that's almost all 30 but it would include those new roads are 20
and sadly 600 odd people have died on our roads over the last 20 years on those
local roads. But in the same period, 1 ,600 people have died on our roads that are 40
miles an hour or more. Now, that doesn't mean you choose one or the other, but it does,
to my mind, point to when we are looking at what the risk is, and if we want to save people's
lives on our roads, we need to go where there is the greatest threat to human life.
I'll come to Councillor Arshad first before they're there.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:21:01
Thank you very much, Chair. We see extreme high speeds of modified e -bikes and mopeds,
and seeing antisocial behaviour.
Can you bring more focus in Oxford with the Thames Valley
police, and that's question one.
What else can we do more of stop and seize?
This includes in parks.
And the third question is, what intelligence -led operations are
being undertaken to identify repeat offences,
predominantly quite young people,
and those supplying modified e -bikes?
Are there any joint opportunities for joint councils or any operations that we can be
part of?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:21:45
Thanks, James.
I'm just trying to see if I can find my latest statistics for Oxfordshire.
I don't have the most up to date, I'm afraid, but in April in Oxfordshire, there were, I
I think about 38 e -bikes and e -scooters seized in that month. So certainly more certainly is
happening more than once a day across the local command unit area. Now that is a relatively small
number I'm sure people will say versus what they what they see going on out there. We've certainly
in our more urban areas including in Oxford had focused operations where we'll put officers out
in numbers, particularly targeting that activity to provide some deterrent.
The majority of those vehicles certainly if illegal will be not just seized but also destroyed,
and we have been crushing many of those.
There will be some circumstances if there are exceptions with those that could still
be legally held but were being illegally used that someone may be able to claim it back
at some later date, but there will be another sanction.
So the challenge of e -bikes and e -scooters and mopeds and all those other things is something
I think we have touched on at this panel before.
I'm very happy to go into it in more detail maybe at another session.
I think there is a lot we can do.
The police are, I'm afraid, simply dealing with enforcement of what are some relatively
tricky rules for people to get their heads around.
And I do have a view, which I've expressed before, that I think there is absolutely the
need and the change of policy nationally.
I'm not opposed to e -scooters and e -bikes.
The genie is out of the bottle.
They're very useful forms of transport for people who want to get around our towns and
cities.
However, they were – certainly the e -scooters were introduced under trial legislation which
allows certain schemes to operate and not others.
You can't get insurance for private ones.
Therefore, there's no regulation about helmets or registration, all of those challenges.
So actually, I think there is a real opportunity for the government to legislate properly to
allow the safe use of e -bikes and e -scooters for those who want to do so
lawfully and safely. That will deal with a significant amount of the problem. That
will then allow the police to focus on those people who are behaving
dangerously, recklessly or illegally on those vehicles. So at the moment TVPR
doing enforcement, we will continue to do enforcement, it is definitely an issue.
It absolutely links to other forms of criminality in my view but the solution
I think is not simply one for policing.
It's one that I think we need to operate in a different legislative framework which
allows people to freely use those forms of transport effectively and the police can then
focus on the criminals.
One second please.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:24:37
If the follow up wants to happen because I just want to get back to the point around
the class speed and if you want to do the follow up that might be helpful.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:24:48
Yeah, so are there any joint opportunities for joint operations with councils?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:24:54
Possibly on the e -scooters, I'm not sure there's many.
I don't think – I can't immediately think of any sort of trading standards issues around
the sale of them.
There are plenty of issues around the sale of them, but they don't tend to come into
the world of trading standards.
Under a new legislative framework, then perhaps there would be.
Where I do think there is an opportunity, and it's something I've been speaking to some
councils about already, is where we are wanting to tackle what I call high street criminality.
So the dodgy bar, the shop, the vape shops, the nail bar, all those sorts of things.
I generalise, which some people won't like, but we know, hopefully people know what I
mean, and those users of mopeds, e -scooters and e -bikes who are using them for other forms
of criminality.
Those are sometimes related to seemingly legitimate businesses which perhaps need licencing from
a local authority.
And I think there is an opportunity for us to use the collective power of local agencies
to tackle criminality.
So it's not just the e -scooters and e -bikes.
But if we suspect wider criminality, then the police have clearly got powers to arrest,
but that's very much aimed at individuals.
I've campaigned on a change in legislation around closure orders, which is a power that
both police and councils can share.
There's licencing, the fire service have very draconian
powers to close people down for a variety of things.
I think there is definitely a case for a really good
swift response from local agencies
to broader criminality on the high street.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:26:26
Thank you very much.
I just want to get back to the question around
speeding vehicles and just around the,
Cllr Ed Hume - Milton Keynes City Council - 0:26:32
you've talked about the,
somebody's off high risk because of the high speed,
the strategic highway network that Highways England look after. There's clearly in this patch
some big motorways. One of them in nearby AMS is the M1. I'm not quite sure whether that's your
bed for sure. It might just be a bit of a mix. But I'll use it as an example. What or I'll use
the A5 motor keys where we quite often see the police vans at the same locations all the time.
Would that not be better for Highways England to review how they do their enforcement and to look
static cameras in some social locations rather than so then the police
enforcement can move into a more agile mobile situation in terms of into a more
localised area. In Milton Keynes we've got a unique road network with high
speeds and that presents and people go and with modern cars people go even
faster than that now. I would also be interested to understand what your criteria is for
identifying those sites for speeding and where you put the vans and what sort of discussions
you have of local authorities in identifying those.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:27:43
So if I try and take those in probably reverse order then, the risk and the allocation of
those resources is an operational one for the police so it's not me. I can't and
probably shouldn't say go and do some speed enforcement on that road. But what I do think
is important and it's why I talk about the public side of that dashboard of data based
on the analysis and the risk is a much clearer understanding for everybody, a clearer understanding
for partners about why the police are allocating resources to certain places and the ability
to therefore challenge within local authorities and the police to make that case. But we need
good up -to -date data in order to be able to properly do that. And I think an advantage,
other than transparency is just a good thing,
of making that publicly available,
is to explain to the public why that we're doing
some of that stuff.
In terms of mobile versus fixed cameras,
my general view, and there will be exceptions to this,
and again this is largely operational,
but my general view is I'm not a fan of fixed cameras
on the basis that what they tend to do
is get people to slow down,
slam the brakes on often when they spot them,
or they know where it is anyway,
and then speed up afterwards,
and that's why one of the things we have looked at,
and I'm philosophically much keener on the average,
these cameras, massive cost involved,
but that's I think part of the problem
with the fixed cameras.
What we are looking to do,
and will be launching in the next couple of weeks,
is to get some of our camera operators out of the vans.
The vans are, by necessity,
a very effective piece of equipment,
but they are quite limited in some of the places they can go to because you need a big safe space to park a van.
We will still be using those vans and getting our money's worth out of the kit,
but we will also be deploying people out on motorbikes who can get to some of our perhaps more challenging locations to do some speed enforcement.
That will be a new thing for TVP to be doing. We'll be launching that in the next couple of weeks.
I think that has some real potential both to reach into some of the local areas that have been mentioned.
I had someone who contacted me from a town council just this past week who was really wanting some speed enforcement around an estate road.
Now, if I leave aside whether or not that's justified in terms of risk and that allocation is not down to me,
realistically on that road in the housing state is probably not a practical place to put a police camera van
because it's going to take up someone's parking space, someone's going to park in front of it.
those sorts of problems. Actually having an officer who can move around on a motorbike
nice and easily, do some speed enforcement and move on to the next site, I think it will
mean we can cover a large number of areas, admittedly for a short period of time each,
perhaps increase some of that jeopardy around where those officers are going to be, still
do proper police enforcement but I think cover a much wider variety of locations which will
I think I would anticipate that whole range of speed limit areas. It will be effective in the 20 mile an hour local roads
It will be just as effective to do some of our fast roads where at the moment we find it difficult to put a van
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:30:58
Thank you if there's no further questions on that subject

8 Thames Valley Police and Crime Panel's Annual Report 2025/26

Can we move on to our police and crime panel annual report, which I think Khalid officially for for preparing in great detail again
Is there any observations that anybody would wish to make in respect of the annual report
before we accept it?
I take it then that Callad is on an excellent job again, and thank you very much indeed.
Our annual monthly topic, Claire's Law, domestic violence disclosure scheme.

9 Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme (DVDS) Clare's Law

We have come a long way since we first started but there is still room for improvement.
Have you got an update other than the report, Mr Barber?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:31:43
Not significant.
Other than I would agree with your analysis, I don't think able to suggest the data in
here is perfect.
There is work to do.
But equally I hope the report conveys that, that nobody is thinking that that is it.
The robotic automation which was the thing that I promised for a long time has made a
massive difference and the improvements continue.
So, I would hope if we're looking at this again in the future you continue to see that
rise.
There are some other issues that have been partially tackled that we can do a little
bit more about.
So, some of the – and again, we talked on this a little bit before about the time scale
for the responses, which is one of those issues.
Some of that, and we've made some improvements but we still, I think, need to get under it
a little bit more, is actually about how we're recording those attempts.
So, if someone makes an attempt to respond to the requester and if they can't get through
them on the phone, et cetera, well that's a delay. Is that a fair way of us measuring
it? I'm not so sure. So there's I think the practical things we can do, there's
some measurement things we can do, but I will just leave the report there. It is what it
is and I hope we will continue to see some improvements.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:32:51
Thank you. Claire's law expert, Pamela has got a couple of questions for you.
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:32:58
Oh, there we go. Thank you. I'm far from an expert, but I'm – oh, there we go. Far from
an expert, but I'm getting there. I'm getting better. But what I do know is where our journey
has been over the last couple of years actually and and you know it's great
isn't it we're making real significant improvements but my questions really of
Matthew holding people to account holding the police to account with our
national comparisons so if I can just remind you Matthew that in September 24
you said that you'd expect Thames Valley Police to at least be at the national
average and if not you'd expect Thames Valley Police to explain why not. In March
25 you said that Thames Valley Police aimed to be at the top of the group
which the Home Office and HMIC has identified as a most similar group of
forces and in September 25 you agreed that it be beneficial to have
comparable data and you said it would likely would not be the most difficult
thing to request or compile.
And here we are in June 2026 and we're still lacking the comparable data.
And you've said that you would ask them for it.
You said that we would be, you know, you wanted us to be compared and we're still not getting
it.
I'm feeling very frustrated.
I'm not taking anything away from the fact that, you know, we've made significant improvements.
But somebody needs to still keep on saying how are we doing compared with other forces.
Thank you.
I think it's all perfectly legitimate.
I share some of the frustration on two fronts.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:34:45
One is because we've got our data here,
and that's the bit that I can bang on at the team
back at Thames Valley, pleased to do.
The problem about comparable data is I don't control
those other areas to try and get this
in a comparable format, which is part of the challenge.
Very happy to continue to do that.
We've also got HMIC changing our most similar force group
at the moment.
Now, that doesn't mean we can't compare
to what we had before if we can get the data from them, but that is another challenge we
have.
So I note the comments.
I don't disagree.
We will continue to take that away, but I'm afraid, I guess, the issue is that some of
that is because it's about finding – it's about getting the comparable data from others
in a way that is comparable and doesn't have anomalies to it.
I will seek to do, but I feel it's slightly outside of our direct control.
That's really fair.
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:35:41
All it needs then is someone say we have contacted these forces. Unfortunately, they haven't got back to us
Well, I'm not concerned
I'm not convinced that we've actually asking for that data if we're asking and we're not getting it then I understand this we can't make
Other people give it to us
I just don't want it to drop off the radar and I fear that if I'm not here banging the drum it will do
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:36:01
I'm sure that this issue will you'll want to see come back anyway
So we'll look to get an update in the next one, along with continued improvements in
the base figures.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:36:10
Q Perhaps it could be taken from a different perspective, Mr Barber, in the fact that not
ask Thames Valley to look for the data from other forces, is that you contact your fellow
PCCs from those other areas and ask them to accrue to account their forces to provide
that data?
I was just thinking to approach that through the APCC, Chairman, so we'll see what we can
do.
Thank you.
We look forward to your response with respect to that.
Are there any other questions in respect to Claire's law and the domestic violence?
No?
Thank you.

10 Update from the PCC on the Implementation of Recommendations from the Panel's Anti-Social Behaviour Task and Finish Group

Your update, Mr. Barber, on the implementation and recommendations from the panel's Antisocial
Behaviour Tasking and Finishing Group.
Yes, thank you, Chairman.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:36:56
And there were broadly three issues that came out of the task and finish group.
There's a paper there which you'll be pleased to know I won't reiterate.
The forum is up and running and we had our latest meeting this week.
The remaining two items our business at that forum is taking forward.
So one is the shared ASB reporting tool.
We are continuing to – so we've done some work analysing what local authorities and
partners have got already.
We're doing some scoping work with some potential commercial partners.
We're not at the stage of going out to market with anything yet, but looking at whether
it's something we could – we would need to develop in -house or whether there are those
out there in the market that could provide a system.
But at the moment, all of our local authority partners around the table are still buying
into this.
This is obviously – I appreciate the bodies that you all represent.
And I give everybody the opportunity at every meeting to tell us if they want to pull out,
because if we don't get everybody on board, it's going to be a bit pointless.
What I'm really pleased to say we've done through both that forum and the reporting
tool conversations is we've got quite a significant number of our registered social
landlords as part of that group, and that is really beneficial and probably more than
I'd hoped for when we set the forum up.
We've got really good engagement and they are responsible for a huge amount of – I
wouldn't say they're responsible for the antisocial behaviour, but they're responsible
for the tools that can help us tackle much of the antisocial behaviour.
So that is our next meeting is in December and we expect to get an update.
Then similarly with the ASB case reviews, a big thanks to the local authorities
who've been sharing information we've got as well as the meeting we had last
week, the community safety managers from the
whole across Thames Valley are meeting next week or the week after to
a look at further work. We'll have a formal report back in December
to the forum. The point of this for those people who haven't followed it through
is to try to regularise the processes, the thresholds for antisocial behaviour reviews.
This is where I remember the public who's not happy about the way the police or the
local authority have dealt with their complaints about antisocial behaviour, can ask for that
to be reviewed. At the moment there are 14 local authorities
and it's not done in quite 14 different ways, but it can be done in 14 different ways.
What we're looking to do is to try and get a consensus on how that's done consistently across Thames Valley.
And ultimately all of your local authorities are sovereign bodies.
If you want to do it a different way that's fine, but at least people can then justify why they're doing it differently from everybody else.
And alongside that piece of work to report at the same time, we've got the force reviewing all of the internal processes that go behind it within local command units.
we've already seen some coming together in standardisation when the local police
areas disappeared into local command units. There's been a bit more
standardisation but again if I'm asking local authorities to do the same thing
across Thames Valley it's more than reasonable that we should expect the
police to liaise with those local authorities around anti -social behaviour
in the same way in Reading as they would in Milton Keynes. So that piece of work
should again come back to the forum in December.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:40:06
Thank you. Councillor Newton first, please.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 0:40:10
Thank you, Chair. Firstly, I'm really pleased to see how this is progressing because obviously
I was involved in the panel that put together the recommendations and it's really good to
see this coming forward in the way that it is. I wanted to understand in terms of engagement
first of all, it's my first question, are all of the local authorities across the Thames
Valley region engaged in this or have we got any sort of areas that are not engaged? That
was the first question. I was at a meeting yesterday involving some
of your officers and there still seemed to be a particular problem in the Wokingham area
about sharing data where reports had gone to the local ASB team. The people reporting
it thought that that was then being scheduled to the police and it came out that that wasn't
happening and they did actually make it clear that it needs to be reported to the police
as well.
So that seems to be like a data sharing issue and you have alluded to that, but I'm wondering
if there is other best practise that might come out so that we can tell people, you know,
report it this way and report it that way.
At the moment, there may be a longer term solution coming.
The other thing which you may not class this as ASB, but in the last couple of weeks I've
three of my residents have contacted me about shoplifting incidents all in the
same location. I have visited the shop this week and spoken to the duty
manager and they're saying yeah they're experiencing this on a daily basis. What
seems to be different is that historically it feels to me that
shoplifting was generally done fairly circumspect people were doing it a bit
sort of hidden they were trying to sort of be a bit subtle about it. Now it seems
that it's much more blatant in terms of just clearing shelves and pouring stuff into bags.
But also there's an element of aggression going with it and verbal aggression to staff
and also threats of violence going on as well.
And where these residents had experienced and witnessed that, and some of them actually
have given statements to your officers, because I'm pleased to say that at least on one occasion
police did attend and I understand that at least one person was seen to be arrested.
That's great, really, really appreciate that.
But I'm also understanding that there are challenges
around the prosecutions and what they do,
particularly with young people.
And what the shop people are telling me is,
well, they might be arrested today,
but listen to me back,
you're doing the same thing again tomorrow.
And I'm not criticising Thames Valley Police for that.
I'm just wondering if there's more stuff
that needs to be done wider,
because the residents are seeing the same people,
and they're perceiving no action being taken.
And I'm just wondering if there are things
that we might do to try and help support
Thames Valley Police in terms of other things
that need to happen, whether it's the Crown Prosecution
Service or whatever it might be, Youth Justice
or whatever it is where the blockers are.
So that from the resident's perspective,
they one, aren't traumatised and two,
think that something is actually being done
beyond a rap over the knuckles.
Thank you.
Right.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:43:21
So, on the anti -social behaviour reporting, I completely agree about that confusion in
terms of I thought I've reported it there, why don't you know about it data sharing
issue.
That is exactly why we're looking at this reporting piece.
And it is in several stages.
Without getting too boringly technical, we're looking at both the data sharing side between
local authorities and police, which goes on behind the scenes, and then the public route
into that.
They are deliberately separate at this stage, so if one fails to be delivered,
we can still pursue the other route and we're not reliant on both working
because both have lots of risks and challenges and costs and they may never
land but that's the intention to try and do that.
Alongside that technical work around things, Thames Valley Police, through its
Anti -Social Behaviour Action Plan, has tidied up the definition around anti -social
behaviour which is set out in the plan and that's been shared with local authorities
to have a better understanding of what the threshold is.
Now I don't expect the public to always understand what that threshold is and what's
meant by it but at least if the professionals do that's a step in the right direction
and it has some consistency.
We're also looking through that forum to – and we haven't got there yet because
it was raised at the last meeting – to look at again what the thresholds are around things
like noise complaints.
it'll be a big issue for your environmental health teams,
a lot of concern around anti -social behaviour,
but actually when does that noise complaint become a thing
that environmental health really needs to do something about,
when does it become an issue that they might involve the police,
at what point do we push back?
All of those issues are very much in discussion at the moment
because it's exactly the problem that you identify.
Shoplifting, you're right, it's not anti -social behaviour,
it's crime, and really clear on that.
I know the Chairman will shout at me if I go on too long,
so I'll try and keep it brief on that,
But as it's been raised,
very glad that there was a decent TVP response
and that someone was nicked.
Yeah, that is one of my biggest frustrations
is people complaining about it, not reporting it,
and therefore the police aren't gonna get there.
And that just demonstrates actually
that it was probably a 999 call, get it in quick,
you can get someone there speedily,
lay hands on someone and they're nicked, great result.
But you're right, there is then plenty of challenges
through the rest of the criminal justice system.
You may have seen Sir Mark Rowley,
Commissioner of the Met earlier this week
talking about fast -track courts for shoplifters.
I mean, I think that it catches a headline.
The principal is absolutely right.
The difficulty is if you have a fast -track court for shoplifters, what is it you're
not putting through court?
And we all want a fast -track court for domestic abuse victims, and we also want fast -track
courts for this and that and the other.
We just want our courts to be faster, is the reality.
I think there are two particular problems which are only going to make the current situation
worse, if I'm honest.
One is the Sentencing Act, which is going to make it virtually impossible to get yourself
locked up for anything.
You've got to commit a really heinous crime to get yourself sent to prison in the current
regime and I think that is a real problem.
Undoubtedly we have challenges around prison spaces, that's undeniable, but the outcome
of the Sentencing Act will mean fewer criminals going to prison, more being managed in the
community and more reoffending of those, you know, those sorts of offences around shoplifting.
We also, I also, and unpopularly, see problems around the Crime and Policing Act, which creates
two particular problems around shoplifting, which are heralded as great successes, and
in my view are not.
We'll see who's proved right in the next year or so.
One is that shoplifting below a value of 200 pounds is no longer going to be a summary -only
offence, which means it could go to a Crown Court, although not many cases are going to
a Crown Court these days. But basically there's this nonsense talked about below
£200 being decriminalised, never true, it just meant it went to a
Magistrates Court not a Crown Court. That was intended to speed up these cases.
That's now come out of the law so we're now pushing people potentially
through a slower route at the same time the Commissioner of the Met is saying
we'd like to get them through quickly please. And it was it was criticised
because it was a summary only offence which meant it was considered lower level etc etc.
Bear that thought in mind, summary only offence for shoplifting considered bad.
In the same piece of legislation the government introduced a new offence
of assault on a retail worker. I personally have never been convinced of the need of the offence,
not because I don't care for our shop workers but because assault on any of us is an offence and
should be treated seriously by the police and those retail workers should already be
protected by the law. We don't need a new bit of legislation. However, the interesting
nuance in this is that assault on a retail worker is, guess what, a summary only offence.
And so if I am stood next to a shopkeeper and we both get punched and we both sustain
a bit of a cut to our head and the offender is charged for actual bodily harm against me and
charged as assault on a retail worker for the retail worker then they'll get a lower penalty
for attacking the shopkeeper under legislation intended to protect them. I think that's mad
personally. The one success though on this is criminal behaviour orders so they are not the
perfect solution to everything but if we are going to have less people going to prison criminal
behavioural orders will, can be used to ban people from certain places, require
people to be, to remain in certain places. They're quite wide -ranging powers that
the courts can impose. A breach of them is, can then be a criminal offence which
can send someone to prison, so whereas maybe they didn't go to prison for
the shoplifting, a breach of an order, the courts could then trigger a prison
sentence. We had real resistance from our Crown Prosecution Service in Thames
Valley to do the paperwork frankly. They told us they didn't have the resource on
criminal behaviour orders. I think we have made a breakthrough on that so I'm
hoping that over the next 12 months we will start to see as a notable increase
in the use of criminal behaviour orders for offences such as shoplifting if the
CPS keep up their side of the bargain as it were and I think that is
And it's far from perfect, but it is probably the best we can do if we're going to be sending
less people to prison, then a decent CBO is at least some element to try and control and
protect retailers from repeat offenders.
Thank you.
There's a lot of questions on this subject, obviously, to Barbara.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:49:53
I'll work down the room, please.
Lady Councillor, I can't see your name quite, so I do apologise.
Thank you.
Can I leave my question for now please?
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:50:06
Thank you Councillor.
You had a question?
No?
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:50:12
Thank you chair.
Matthew I don't know if you are aware of the demography of the Sarawak Council.
Cllr Zafar Satti - Slough Borough Council - 0:50:19
I represent a ward that consists of about 21 communities almost there.
They are living there.
and they came from different culture and background.
And the thing is that I've been complaining to police
and my counsel as well for the last three years.
And that what is a test case for you
and the police for our counsel as well.
How they tackle that one.
There's a gang of guys from the ground
from different countries.
They get together in different capacities
and then they try to harass and they try to bully the local residents in that particular
point. I have been trying to contact police many times and whatever when the police any
PC comes there they disperse but on the other time when they go back they turn to their
duty again they stay there they try to harass shoppers they can't come out even sometimes
especially in some good weather.
So what they say, they say they don't harm anybody.
So they have right to sit on the main road with chairs
and drinking, splitting water, splitting on defence,
just flight, all these social behaviour involved in there.
When I take this case to police and Muswabar Council,
it's treated like a football, yeah.
They just say, they want to tackle that one.
Council say police say this is their duty.
And finally, when I met some officers,
they say they don't have resources to tackle that one.
So that's the situation is going on there.
I don't know how to deal with that one.
Recently, I've been invited as the portfolio protection.
They asked me, you deal it.
But the resources are with police and the council.
And still they are reluctant to go ahead with these ones.
I just want to wish to, if you can make this a test case,
my ward is Chalway Ward, it's called Chalway Ward,
and there are about 15 to 20 communities
that live there, yeah, from different backgrounds.
One community said that this is our culture
to sit on the road with the chairs and drinking.
There's no harm in it.
And when police come, they don't issue even penalties
to them, I mean, they issue, they don't pay it.
And the youngsters, they least care about the laws
and the social law, yeah.
And that's my suggestion, I know that if it goes to court,
you don't have enough evidence to just prosecute them, yeah,
and to get away with that one.
I need some sort of comprehensive sort of solution
to that one, that so people can resident
in that particular ward, they can feel safe
and they can peacefully live in there.
And second risk which I now smell in there,
there's a smoke is there,
that one of the communities they are,
they're just, their patience is rising.
And any time we can have a community clash in there,
risk of clash in there, yeah.
So that will be a big problem for,
in that particular ward.
Thank you, sir.
Okay, thank you.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:53:43
So, I'm just checking the, um, because you've mentioned the street drinking.
I know there's a public space protection order, um, in Slough.
I was checking the geography and I think I'm right in saying it covers the whole of the
borough.
So, that is potentially a tool, um, that could be used.
I think what you highlight, I mean, first of all, obviously it's a very local issue,
um, and you touch on some operational stuff which is, um, outside of my remit as a Police
and Crime Commissioner.
I'm very happy if you want to contact me outside the meeting and I can have some conversations
with the local commanders to see what can be done about that particular issue.
But I think what you do highlight is the difficulty in tackling some of these really serious problems
that I don't, for a moment, suggest they don't have real impacts on the community.
Because the distinction I made with Councillor Newton around shoplifting, well, shoplifting
is a crime.
Many of those are the things you've talked about.
Some of them might be on the edges, but a lot of the other stuff, the nuisance, is not a crime,
and the police are there to enforce the criminal law. So that's not for a moment me suggesting
the police shouldn't do anything about it, by the way, but I think we've got a real difficulty.
Give the police an armed robbery any day. It's a nice old -fashioned serious crime
where you've got some clues, you've got some witnesses, you've got some people you can get
arrested, they'll get to prison for a reasonable period of time. The sorts of stuff that actually
many members have talked about are the lower level annoyances where even if we had a much
more draconian set of sentencing rules than we have at the moment, and we certainly have
them at the moment, but you definitely, you're not going to get someone sent to prison for
a long period of time. You need to find the tool that is going to deter someone from continuing
that behaviour. You need to gather evidence if you're going to ever get them to court,
but a lot of these things are done outside of courts. So I guess my point is, this is
the really difficult work that our neighbourhood teams in Thames Valley do
day in and day out and it is challenging and it is difficult because not having
seen it all myself it sounds like there's a number of those things that
probably don't actually necessarily quite break the criminal law if they're
not witnessed, if they're not evidence but there's a huge amount of frustration
in the community. So there's in those cases the best solutions are about
the local authority, the police and the community working together and I
I won't claim to try and write those solutions today, we're very happy to take it outside the meeting.
Because I can think of other cases in Reading for example where we've seen
just moving street furniture, improving street lighting has had an impact on people's behaviour,
perhaps better use of the public space protection order around around drinking and slough if that,
if drinking is a particular problem because that is already a tool that exists. So I think there is
there is definitely work we can do between police and councils. I don't think, although that might
be quite specific to your ward in Charville, I don't think the experience will be particularly
unique to anybody. This is the stuff that, you know, sadly the Chief Constable can't
– not sadly, appropriately – the Chief Constable can't send a van load of riot -trained
police officers in to grab people and get them into court, because we're not talking
about the stuff that is well beyond the criminal threshold. But it doesn't mean we don't
tackle it, it means we need to use all those powers that we've got collectively.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:56:57
Thank you. Councillor Cornell. Thank you, Chair. Sorry I had a blonde moment
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:57:02
there. But Matthew, we need more police on the streets and cars on the streets. I have
a rural area that I have. We have a lot of problems there. We have speeding and through
the villages, tractors and trailers and things like that. And we don't see the police. They
come occasionally to sort of cheque on us. What's the problem when you see them? In Windsor
We have all sorts of problems and nobody seems to be doing anything about it.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:57:26
Okay, so in terms of numbers, I wouldn't agree with all, we'd all like more and we've got
more, we've got more offices now in terms of anything we've ever had before.
We've got more than we had, significantly more than we had back in 2010, probably still
slightly less per head of population.
One of the points that the Chairman and I don't think the Chairman mind me sharing this,
we had an interesting exchange about a month or so ago over some figures that the Chairman
and found from the five constituent forces
that made up Thames Valley in, I think, 1966.
And off the top of my head,
I think we had almost twice as many officers
per head of population now than we did then.
But the difference, as the chairman quite rightly pointed out
is they were much more public facing in 1966
than they are now.
Now, some of that is a legitimate criticism
of modern policing.
Some of it is actually something
that we need to be realistic about.
So, some of the conversation, the things we talked about already today, domestic abuse.
That domestic abuse is not effectively tackled by having police officers out and about in
cars and walking our streets and we know that is probably 25 % of calls that will come through
to Thames Valley Police today will be about domestic abuse of some kind.
Our rape and sexual offences, sadly there will be exceptions but the vast majority of
those offences don't go on in public places where patrolling officers would deter or apprehend.
They take place in private places where we need to have officers who can investigate
and deal with those crimes. We know some of the challenges around the online space in
terms of child abuse, et cetera. So that's not an excuse to say we shouldn't be fulfilling
people's demand for visible policing, it's just the nature of what perhaps has changed.
We have more than doubled the number of neighbourhood officers we've got in Thames Valley
since the Chief Constable took up his post.
It is still an aspiration for both of us to get to trebling that number.
We're not quite there yet and we do see some increasing challenges.
So the Government talked about funding new neighbourhood officers for Thames Valley.
They've actually funded about 40 % of the cost of those officers.
and so that cost either falls on you're reducing services elsewhere or increases
in council tax and we've already already increased the council tax to the highest
level I can. So we're we're in a much better place than we were three or four
years ago in terms of our numbers and our ability to be visible. We've got some
better processes in place so our officers in neighbourhood teams are able
to report and demonstrate the areas that they're patrolling more clearly and
and therefore be a bit more responsive to the public's concerns.
I would like us to go further. Realistically the funding of new
neighbourhood offices is becoming increasingly challenging
and there are lots of other places that officers need to be allocated within
Thames Valley Police in terms of armed response and detectives and
child abuse teams and HMIC will come in and want to put pressure on
the Chief Constable to spend money in certain ways. We need to
acknowledge and understand that risk. I will often put pressure on the Chief
responsible to do different things with the money that I'm allocating him. So, absolutely
you get the concern. We have increased the number of neighbourhood officers. As far as
I'm concerned, we will continue to do so. I fear the rate of growth will be lower under
the current funding that we get.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:00:58
Can I come back? That's fine, Matthew, but we don't see anybody. I don't see anybody.
I have – between us, Gillian and I have 10 villages, 12 villages, and I also sit on
Winslow. We have a lot of problems with speeding tractors and rural theft there and we just
don't see a policeman unless I actually ring them. They are wonderful, our local police,
but I have to ring them and say, can you come and have a look at this or can you come and
sort this out? And they're really, really nice. But I'd like to see a police car occasionally,
especially on some of the villages where they speed through and they've got kids and things.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:01:26
So in terms of some of the speeding, we talked about this earlier, that the enforcement can
be a mix of the local team who can do some speed enforcement, but also roads policing,
maybe an appropriate response to some of that work.
Our neighbourhood officers are out there.
They are undoubtedly limited in numbers.
I do anecdotally get reports from people who do say
they are seeing our police officers a bit more these days.
There is a bit of a reality in terms of the
how we all live our lives.
I probably see police officers artificially
because of the job that I do,
but I'm also very conscious that had I,
where I'm not wearing my hat,
I've got in my car this morning,
I've driven from my rural village
to main roads where I probably have seen some police cars
that I haven't even noticed driving past me on a motorway.
I've driven into this building here
and I'll do pretty much the same at the end of the day
and I won't necessarily be out and about in my local town.
And so the opportunity, there's a little bit,
I know we want to see it with our own eyes
but we also need to look at how we're living our lives.
What we can do now, much more effectively, is demonstrate, because we literally track
it, the hours that our neighbourhood officers are spending out on patrol, whether that be
on foot or in car, often mapping the patrols they're doing.
Partly to demonstrate to people it really is happening, but also so that local commanders
can direct those resources to the most appropriate places.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:02:51
Thank you.
I'll work my way back at this side of the table now.
Councillor McEldredge, please.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Finn Mc Goldrick - Reading Borough Council - 1:02:57
You mentioned the PSPO that we brought in in Reading and my question was basically do
you think that the force is making full use of the new part under the PSPO and do you
think there are any learnings from that that the task and finish group will be taking forward
and I know that my predecessor Karen Rowland is obviously very involved and so I'm sure
that that is the case but I would appreciate your assessment of whether you think the force
is making the best use of their additional parge.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:03:29
Yes, so thank you. I was referring to the Slough one.
I'm now rapidly just refreshing my memory on the Reading one
because yes, it includes other things other than just the drinking.
You've got the begging, dog fowling.
I'm quite impressed I managed to find it that quickly actually.
And some of those other things including the use of e -scooters.
So I think there will be things we can learn from them.
One of the conversations that came up at our anti -social behaviour forum earlier this week
is the ability now, Thames Valley Police can train and its own or can do its own training
now to accredit people with powers to do some civil enforcement on behalf of the police.
So potentially there's an opportunity to work more closely with the wardens in some
of our towns.
some of the street wardens have already got some powers, others will not and that increases
our ability to do something with it.
I think there is definitely an opportunity for training for some of our officers so they
properly understand and I've certainly come across this in probably more in Oxford than
Reading but I'm sure it's the same where actually our local neighbourhood officers
have a pretty good understanding of what the PSPOs are because they have a local team and
they've probably been involved in some of the consultation, they know it.
Yet some of the response officers who they might be locally based but they're not always
patrolling one area, but they might well be the ones who respond to an incident and they
if they aren't fully aware of what that local effectively the local bylaws in that area
there can be a gap in knowledge and therefore are they properly using all of the powers
they can.
I think there's a I think there's definitely a point to be to be developed there.
So that is one of the areas that we pick up with the force about the training.
Now it's complicated because the PSPA has changed all the time.
People bring in different ones and they are geographically based.
There are some routes we're looking at in terms of the availability of that information.
So there's various resources on officers force mobile phones about legislation cheques, etc.
I think the ideal for me would be something that's geographically based so that they know much more easily
what the rules are in that particular area.
So I think that's an area to look at on the basis,
not specifically of the Reading one,
but of the PSPOs more broadly.
I think there's probably also something to be learned
in terms of how they're written,
and that's not sort of the good or the bad.
But if you take the most recent ones I can think of
that have been enforced, which have been to prohibit
pony and trap racing on some of our dual carriageways,
there's been one in Buckinghamshire
and one in West Oxfordshire,
done almost simultaneously and there were some really useful conversations
between councils that would normally never have any contact with each other
because there are different ends of Thames Valley, they're not
you know they don't have a border between West Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire but
actually coordinating that so the wording of the of the PSPOs is the same
I think is really important. So yours for example
is the only one that I'm aware of and apologies if there are others
that includes the anti -social use of e -bikes and e -scooters
And I don't know how well and effectively that's being enforced and I think it's
a little bit experimental because arguably that's covered by other bits of legislation.
But I think we need to look at where we've got these PSPOs, don't just look at that
and say well that's interesting, Reading have done that, but actually come back and
revisit it in a couple of years' time and say how effective has that been, could we,
yeah that's been a great idea, we could use that in Milton Keynes as well, or actually
Milton Keynes had a better idea, can we change the PSPO wording.
So I think there is definitely work to be done around that which we would pick up through
our community safety managers.
Thank you.
Councillor Sowell.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:07:10
Councillor Arshad.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 1:07:17
Oxford residents have raised concerns for years about persistent and sometimes aggressive begging in the city centre,
including concerns about organised exploitation.
Why has organised and persistent begging remained a visible issue in Oxford City Centre for
many years?
And what measurable actions will Thames Valley Police take over the next 12 months to reduce
it?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:07:41
So I think that is arguably one of those issues that actually a PSPO could be a good solution
to.
very happy again as a local Oxford issue I'm very happy to take that away and
have a conversation with local commanders. Of course it was actually I
think Oxford as a community was probably one of the most vociferous communities
calling for the repeal of the Vagrancy Act which was one of the powers that the
police were able to use with through to tackle begging. Now there's lots of
reasons perfectly just meant ones why people didn't like the Vagrancy Act
because it was rather outdated and used some arcane language.
But repealing that, it just takes one tool away.
There are other areas, Reading, for an example,
just having exited the meeting,
but Reading and I think Windsor and Maidenhead,
who within their public space protection orders
have specifically prohibited begging.
I don't believe off the top of my head
that is the case in Oxford.
And that, again, in terms of what practical terms we could all,
steps we could all take, may well be a really useful one.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:09:06
and the police department and the police department and the
police department and the police department and the police
department and the police department and the police
department and the police department and the police
department and the police department and the police
department and the police department and the police

11 Update on Policing White Paper

department and the police department and the police
very briefly see if there's any change to affect us or affect Thames Valley Police and
Bear in mind that it's all liable to change very rapidly again
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:09:30
I will do my best chairman in my view
I think is arguably the most significant issue on the on the agenda today. You have got pages and pages of it. I
Acknowledge pro page 192 which is my letter to the Home Secretary is the one I would point you to not because it's my letter
but that's of some extent summarises the main issues and
The issues, and I will be as brief as I can on this, Chairman,
but the issues that I have real concern about are governance of policing.
I've said before, nobody will bemoan the loss of another politician.
Nobody, probably including my family, are upset that I won't be
Policing and Crime Commissioner after 2028.
But nevertheless, I am passionate about policing governance.
It really matters.
and I would genuinely argue, and I may have a vested interest in this,
but I would genuinely argue that the model of the Police and Crime Commissioner
has been more effective at delivering for the public and more cost effective
than the old police authorities.
I mean, simply in cash terms, the amount that I cost is a lot less
than a committee of 14 people all claiming their expenses,
the present company probably included, but that's the world in which we live.
So I think there is a real issue around local governance and how that aligns properly.
I think it is not too much to say that the systems being designed by the government and
some senior people in policing are effectively to denude local governance so we can have
a thing we call local policing governance, but it won't be particularly effective and
therefore the government can do what it wants.
And I don't think that's particularly healthy.
We see the creation of the National Police Service.
That is very good in some ways.
I wouldn't want to sound like a complete luddite in opposing it.
Some improvements nationally are very welcome.
However, some of the things that are still being talked about
and are included in the White Paper include, for example,
the National Police Service.
Sorry, the inclusion of roads policing in the National Police Service.
I think that is potentially really, really challenging
for a force like Thames Valley that has a collaborated service for roads policing
with Hampshire. A significant proportion of the arrests in Thames Valley are made
by roads policing officers because they're out and about and they're in a
position to make arrests on behalf of other teams. I think that would be lost
if those officers were drawn into some national programme. You see the same way of
forensics etc. The regionalisation of policing is probably the biggest one
that would affect this panel and the big change that most residents would see.
which is potentially losing Thames Valley Police and having policing
southeast as an alternative force. I think that would be a massively retrograde step.
I won't go through too many reasons why hopefully it's pretty obvious and
there's a lot of a lot of work in the documentation. I don't see that as
achieving economies of scale, I see that as making taking the decision -makers
within policing much further away from the public that they serve and given
that so much of our discussion today has been about anti -social behaviour, which is technically
not even a crime and therefore not that serious in the way many senior officers in policing
would agree. Once you've got a network of 11 or 12 chief constables who sit around the
table with the Commissioner of the Met and the Commissioner of the National Police Service,
I have no doubt that their discussions will be about organised crime networks, will be
about counter -terrorism, those are very important things
that we absolutely need to tackle.
Good luck getting anybody to care about shoplifting,
bicycle theft, antisocial behaviour,
the things that really matters to people on the ground,
because once you're at that regional level,
the threat picture that you're looking at
is very different.
For police officers themselves, the licence to practise,
I think is gonna be particularly challenging.
I've seen no movement from the College of Policing
or the Home Office on what their vision is for that.
It could simply mean that our newly qualified officers
have to pay about £150 every year to keep their training up to speed and I'm not convinced
that's particularly good value for money.
The biggest issue I have probably is operational independence.
The Home Secretary quoted a popular political phrase at the moment when she announced the
White Paper saying that she was taking back control of policing.
The reality is she's taking more control than any Home Secretary has ever had over
operational policing in this country's history and I think that is something that
should all be concerned about. Once you put these things on the
statute book, however well intentioned you think the current incumbents might
be, you don't know what will happen in the future. So those are my big
areas of concern. In terms of what's happening now, we should get a
report from Lord Hogan Howe, who is doing a review of
police force sizes. I see a little bit of mission creep
in some of the things that he's looking at, looking at estates for example,
which is not necessarily how you design the most effective police force, but he's
expected to report I think by the end of the summer, define the end of the summer,
you know if you're in government it's usually November, but we should
hopefully see something on that at the end of summer. I think that will be the
bit that sets out whether or not we are looking at Thames Valley, Thames Valley
and Hampshire, Thames Valley and Gloucestershire, the whole of the southeast, or no change.
So that's one step forward. The progress of the White Paper into legislation I think is really important.
The Government had intended originally to have Royal Assent for their legislation by April of next year,
which would have established the National Police Service and put in train a load of other things.
They haven't as yet published the draught legislation.
My understanding is that will be published after the summer recess, so I think it is
likely, if they want to stick to their timetable, they need to introduce it into parliament
in that brief sort of 10 -day window between the end of the summer recess and the start
of the conference recess.
If they miss that, then they're another month behind.
Even if they achieve that, I think it is going to be really tricky for them to get it through
Parliament by April of next year to get Royal Assent, partly because I think they
will get more resistance to things around operational independence in the
House of Lords than they are potentially expecting, I certainly hope they do, and I
think they they will struggle to meet that timetable. Now that's fine, maybe it
all kicks in after after then a little bit later in the summer, but it will I
I think it will slow them down.
Relating to this panel in particularly, and obviously my office included in that,
is the abolition of police and crime commissioners and the establishment of
the new thing, and the abolition of police and crime panels as well,
that as I understand it is the bulk of the legislative changes that are being made.
So if you think of it as four quarters, probably about half of the
half the legislation is going to be around the governance changes, about a
quarteries are going to be around the establishment of the National Police Service
and about quarteries the other provisions.
So they've got a lot to do in that and are coming across all sorts of unforeseen problems
in how they unpick the current system, particularly because they're doing it alongside local government
changes and creation of mayoral authorities or not and all those sorts of challenges.
So we will hopefully by September have an idea of do the government, or is the
recommendation to the government to abolish Thames Valley Police and what
does the government, what do the government's plans actually look like in
legislative terms, which if all goes to plan by the summer of next year will be
passed into law. Now I do think that that, so that's the plan to answer your
question Chairman and without getting drawn too much into politics but
Events near Wigan yesterday may well have an impact on how much appetite the current government or a near future government has for some of the big police reform.
This, to be fair, is not just the creation of the Labour Party.
Much of the changes that are being planned are the idea of some senior people in policing.
So there are some self -appointed senior leaders within the policing system in the UK who are very keen to see some of these changes.
The establishment of the National Police Service, the merger of police forces, they've had this agenda for a long time.
So I don't think a change in government necessarily kills some of these ideas that I think are particularly awful forever.
But this particularly awful incarnation of a particularly awful set of ideas may well not last over the next six months.
I mention that because it's, I know it's stating the obvious, but I think we need to
be aware of it.
It does cause, I think the risk around that is greater uncertainty, that nobody really
knows what's going to happen.
That's probably in the short term more of an issue around staff that work in my office
and staff who work in local authorities who work with my office, you know, despite what
people think.
It's not a vast team, but we've got staff who work to provide victims support services,
really important to victims of crime in Tostems Valley, it's a statutory service for me,
but they don't at the moment know the future of where they will be employed and will that
statutory duty continue for some public body in the future. I reassure them as much as
I can because I'm reasonably confident, but that delay or uncertainty will create greater
risk. What that means for the Police and Crime Panel and of course yourselves and you've
got an item later on today about hosting this panel, so it'll be quite interesting to
how how the rest of the governance arrangements planned thank you I think
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:19:31
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 1:19:36
question from Pamela yes I hear your concerns Matthew about about the
accountability after your day and but I wondered if there if you thought there
were any preparations that you could be making now to with knowing that
something's going to happen probably, just sort of as a gift to the next whoever or whatever
it's going to be, just to make sure that, you know, they have the best possible outcome
for the continuation of governance and accountability.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:20:13
Yes, thank you. And we certainly are. So at a national level, I've been involved in some
of the conversations that have been taking place with the Home Office, PCC colleagues
and others about what the new thing looks like, because it's very clear that the Home
office just haven't thought of some of the questions that are now being posed to them.
So genuinely I think there is a role to play to try and help them unpick some of that.
Locally my team have been meeting with local authority chief executives to explain to them
that as far as we can see local authorities are going to have a much bigger role to play.
Local authority leaders are going to have to be part of this board.
It's not clear if you...
My reading of the white paper is that it is local authority leaders themselves who form
the policing board.
It's not something like a fire authority they can delegate to someone else.
We, you know, again, we haven't seen the legislation, so we will find out.
So that's another area where, frankly, local authority leaders need to be invested in this
themselves.
and certainly chief executives, there may well be issues around
chipping of staff about liabilities for some of these things.
It's not quite clear where all that risk will sit.
So we're having those conversations now in terms of at least teeing people up
to the fact that change is coming.
I think it would be fair to say we've been met by varying levels of enthusiasm
for those conversations but it's being thrust upon us anyway.
The line that I take though, and I've been really clear with my staff on this,
is I am fundamentally opposed to most of this stuff.
There are some good things in it and there are some things that I think we need to mitigate.
I will always want to do what I can for Thames Valley Police and the people of Thames Valley
that the police are supposed to serve to mitigate any of those worst risks.
But what I won't do is use the resources I've got at my disposal at the moment
to do something that I think is specifically harmful just because it meets what government
policy is at the time.
So there are some things that I may well be slightly resistant to doing and saying, well,
actually, if someone wants to do that, you're going to have to wait till I'm gone because
I think it's the wrong thing to do.
But that aside, hopefully those will be few and far between.
We are having conversations at the moment with local authority partners to make sure
we can smooth it as best we can.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:22:26
One question from me.
How close is the forensics building ready for completion?
Excitingly so.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:22:36
I won't give a clear date,
but I think the formal handover of keys will be when I'm away on holiday,
and I'm not telling you my holiday dates,
but it will be close.
And then we are looking at, once we've transferred stuff,
there's still a few bits of finalisation,
and we will have a date for a formal launch.
In that respect then, obviously,
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:23:01
with the National Police Service,
is Thames Valley got its full heart now
in supporting that building and going forward,
or do you think perhaps we'll stand back a bit
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:23:12
and have it stolen from us?
So, I mean, we've already got the sunk costs.
So frankly, it is a fantastic facility.
We have in our forensics team
some of the best people in forensics.
to be fair our head of forensics Kay Hannan herself is absolutely one of the best in the country.
I'm sure lots of other forces would love to poach her and I hope that the new building will help her want to stay.
I'm really confident that is a good investment for the people of Thames Valley to make sure we stay at the cutting edge of our forensics to make sure,
not just so we've got a nice thing to have in the fancy building, but so that the criminals who are committing crimes against people in Thames Valley in the future
are able to be brought to justice because the police are able to effectively fulfil
those investigations. So absolutely fully behind that building and that project. However,
it is a point that I have raised before and it's referenced in my letter and in the report
that actually we've spent circa £50 million on a new facility. We're borrowing to fund
a lot of that and we will be borrowing for a number of years. That's fine, it's in our
financial planning, the panel have seen that when we set budgets, it's not an issue.
But there is a genuinely unanswered question that if forensics is going to be part of the
National Police Service, what do they mean by part of the National Police Service?
Do they just take command of the people who are in it and we end up still paying the rates?
Do they come and nationalise the building and we're left paying the borrowing costs
for the next 25 years for something that we no longer own?
Or will the National Police Service come along and buy the thing,
offer us for a proper rate and take that all on?
The answer is we simply don't know and I don't think they know either.
I don't think they've figured it out.
But that is an issue of concern.
But again, in the short term,
certainly for the next two years that I'm a round chairman,
we are fully behind that project.
It is a good investment for the people of Thames Valley
and we need to make sure it continues to function as such.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:25:11
Thank you.
If I could move on to the next subject, please.

12 PCC Response to His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS) Report into the Effectiveness of Integrity Arrangements in Thames Valley Police

your response in relation to HMIC report into the effectiveness of integrity arrangements
in Thames Valley Police?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:25:27
Yes, thank you, Chairman. So you've got the report. I think this was touched on actually
at our last meeting. We had some discussion and I promised to bring the response back
because I have to respond to all these within 50 -odd days to HMIC. You can see the response
there were three areas.
One was adequate to require improvement and set out in the report are some of the areas
in which that improvement is set to be achieved.
We will have, probably much more interestingly for the panel, but we'll have the Peel inspection
coming up in the next few months, which is the wider inspection of TVP, which will probably
not be published and ready to be shared in time for your next meeting, but might be the
one after that. But in terms of this report, as you see, vetting adequate, and we put an
awful lot into vetting processes. There is some work around increasing drug
testing in terms of the countercorruption and PSD, and also some of the work around
systems monitoring, which I think is really important. I'm hoping that some of that
will be helped by the enabling services work that we're doing.
So, we mentioned before we've got a significant investment in IT infrastructure to link up
a number of individual systems, mostly around people in HR, where we've got lots of old
systems that are tentatively linked up to each other.
This is about bringing them all into one place.
And I think in terms of some of the monitoring, not just monitoring of IT systems, what people
are looking at, but some of the – you know, some of the – actually, the analytical work
about spotting issues that might come up.
I think bringing those together will help our counter corruption unit.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:27:13
Thank you.
Has anybody got any questions in respect to this field?
No.
Thank you.

13 Annual Review of Panel's Terms of Reference, Panel Arrangements, Protocol between the Police and Crime Commissioner and the Police and Crime Panel, Protocol for the Informal Resolution Procedure Regarding Complaints made against the Police and Crime Commissioner, Appointments to Sub-Committees and Task and Finish Groups

We'll move on then to the annual review of the panel's terms of reference panel arrangements
protocol between police and crime commissioner and the police and crime panel protocol for
the informal resolution procedure regarding complaints made against the police and crime
Commissioner appointments of subcommittees and task and finishing groups a
very heavy subject
Khaled I think
Is there anything we need to raise in this?
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 1:27:51
No chairs you say it's a bit of a mouthful that title apologies for that
It's just the processes that have to be annually reviewed and there's no major changes proposed changes in any of those
documents the only item which
requires member input today is the appointments to the complaints
subcommittees and tasks and finish groups etc unless of course members have
any questions on those protocols the terms of reference to the panel and the
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:28:20
panel arrangements etc I think we are light on my page for it now on certain
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 1:28:28
members for the subcommittees aren't we coloured yes chair I'm also conscious of
fact we've not got all the panel membership here so it may put a bit of
pressure on members to put their names for when we've not got the full
complement of panel members to select from in terms of membership of
subcommittees. Chair we've got councillor Epps. Councillor Epps. Thank you chair it won't
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:28:50
go over my notes this time. I think it's worthwhile putting on record our
Thanks to Karen Rowland, former Councillor who did an excellent job on the disciplinary
subgroup and also to Susan Morgan and Stuart Wilson who were both very diligent and active.
It's a pity Susan is not here today.
As you said, we are rather light on people today.
We do need members to take up these things when
There is a complaint that we need need to make sure that people are available and that often
Can be at short notice and my diary is now rather fuller than it was a month or so ago
So I think it may be incumbent on us to to write to those members who aren't
Present there's only one
Buckingham she remember here here I think
and
see how we can fill some of those gaps, but they do, you know, they're not onerous commitments,
but some of them do require attendance at short notice.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:29:55
I fully concur. I think Khaled is going to email all members to see which committees
there are. You say there are three spaces there to fill, but obviously we may need to
refresh some of the panels just in case. It's good continuity for the going forward, the
next two years anyway. So Khalid will email everybody in respect of the subcommittees
that we require populating of. And if any volunteers are all most welcome. Thank you.
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 1:30:27
It may be worth talking about the cyber crime task and finish group because I know that
last year's chair of that task and finish group is in attendance. He may want to talk
about that that's a tasking finish group that didn't actually complete its task
in hand so to speak and it was agreed to continue it over to this municipal yeah
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 1:30:54
don't know if councillor Newton would like to mention anything yeah thank you
yeah we hit some troubles last year you're right and that's pointed out in
the report I've been talking with Matthew about this and I think we've got
a very good way forward now, which I'm really pleased about.
So I fully expect this to move forward.
Also Matthew's been talking to the chief constable, and we've got him fully engaged
in this as well.
So what this is about largely, I mean, cybercrime is a massive area, as we all know, but this
is – and it may be that some of the stuff that's now coming through from what was
announced by the prime minister in the last few days may help actually some of this if
that goes through.
But this was primarily focusing on the risks
to children and vulnerable people
from gaming where you might get into chat rooms
and there's all kinds of stuff that comes out of that.
I won't go into the detail,
but we all know what I'm talking about.
And that can be really, really difficult
and challenging for people
and cause some major problems for them.
So I think it's still an area of grave concern
and it's still something we want to push on with.
But to be clear, this is not about trying to re -investigate
what the Thames Valley Police have looked at,
it's trying to understand the challenges.
And it's likely to end up with recommendations
that go way beyond Thames Valley Police,
in terms of, this is why I say where the Prime Minister
was going this last week, is maybe some of this stuff
around international views on this,
and indeed companies that provide these platforms,
their involvement in it. So if anyone is interested in this space, I think it's a really important
area and there are slots available on the task and finish group and people would be
very welcome to participate and join in with that.
Our next stage, I've already got some questions which I'm going to be feeding through to Matthew,
but the next stage is to review those questions with the panel so that we can actually submit
a comprehensive list, which is what we then want to discuss with Thames Valley Police
and that's the next phase in what we're doing.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Newton.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:33:04
Are you any observations, Mr. Barber?
No.
Thank you.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:33:11
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:33:12
If there's no further questions on that.
Yeah, my question is,
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 1:33:17
what has Thames Valley Police actually changed
in custody practises following the IOPC scrutiny
and Dame Vera Braid review, particularly around the treatment of women and welfare and custody.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:33:36
Which gender on the ice were we on, Chairman? Apologies.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:33:50
Sorry, I thought we were on the protocol still. But we will move on shortly if there is no
further questions on the protocols to topical issues, which I think, Councillor, actually

14 Topical Issues Report

that refer of your question? Fine. Sorry, apologies for that. Yes. I'm
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:34:05
happy to come back with more specific ones to the danger of topical questions that are
not always, haven't we got a bullet point approach to all of those. So we've had a
number of issues of improvement in custody and there's a wider custody improvement
programme which is looking principally from an estate's perspective at how many custody
suites we have and where, but also looking at the link in with making sure we've got
better medical supervision in our custody suites, which links to some of the previous
issues that we've had.
So quite comfortable that we've taken on recommendations from the previous inspections
we've had specifically in Thames Valley will happily take away to come back about the Vera
Baird review and if there are any specifics that didn't relate specifically to Thames
Valley.
So I have in my mind the HMIC review but probably not the Vera Baird one.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:35:07
In respect to the HMIC review, is it comparing like for like across all forces or are they
particularly picking on certain things in certain forces.
From my view that I've seen feedback of certain things they've done, they're looking at different
things in different forces.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:35:30
So the appeal inspections should be looking, certainly the way I've always interpreted
it and the way I would understand what HMIC say they're going to do, should look at everything
across the board because it is supposed to be the state of the nation type review.
The impression that you've got is probably one that is shared by a number of others,
but ultimately the Inspector are independent and they can look at whatever they choose
to.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:35:54
Councillor Ebs.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:35:59
There's an interesting item in here about highway adoptions, which is something that
I have always taken a close interest in as the biggest settlement in the division I represent
has a very large number of them.
And there seems to be who have been around table held, but I'm just slightly surprised
at some of the remarks being quoted in here that claims that councils aren't providing
services, when you get roads that are in new build developments that aren't adopted, there
are a whole series of obligations on developers to bring roads up to an agreed design, to
then build them to specification and then to make financial arrangements to maintain
them before they can be adopted. And I have a settlement where not a single one of those
has been adopted and in every single case that's because developers either refuse to
pay for the design work to be done or refuse to bring the roads up to standard.
I note the I think this was a round table in Didcot so I'd be very happy to speak to
him about the issues elsewhere in Oxfordshire if he's interested but I do think it's quite
extraordinary that we're seeing people just have a pop at councils for matters that are
in this case where the ball is entirely in court of developers who aren't doing what
they're required to do.
Now, there are problems with the national legislation on this, but it just seems to
be I welcome some attempt to justify this.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:37:52
I'm actually on the same view as the PCC because him and I both know of a certain development
within Thames Valley that has been going for 20 years nearly now and the developers have
still not had the highways handed over to the local authority.
I mean I can give you three examples in my patch where the developers have simply gone
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:38:17
bust without making payments or progressing the designs.
I mean the fact is that there are obligations on both parties if developers secure planning
permission for new housing, making a very, very large amount of money for themselves,
that goes with certain obligations.
Now, it's much, much harder when a developer goes into administration.
But nonetheless, they have obligations.
They have to design the roads.
They have to build them to the right specifications.
And I think we need to discuss these things in the spirit of collaboration rather than
elected representatives frankly taking taking pops at people over things that aren't their responsibility now
there are serious road safety issues on these issues because
You if you get people driving frankly like maniacs on some of these estate roads and this sadly is a problem
We hired I had a report my cabinet member meeting yesterday in
some roads in Banbury where we now have
Got the roads adopted up on an estate. I have it again in Hayford Park where we have regular problems
but if they're on private roads, the scope for the police to intervene is limited.
So I very much support the objective, but please could we have a little bit of a spirit
of collaboration, perhaps a little bit of pressure where it's really needed, i .e. on
the developers?
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:39:37
I concur completely, but as I say, Mr. Barber, I'll let you speak on it.
Thank you, Chairman.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:39:44
I mean, it doesn't sound like we're a million miles apart.
I would agree.
The roundtable discussion we had was quite helpful.
Well, actually we had representatives from some of the developers there.
We had some councillors from elsewhere in Oxfordshire, so it wasn't just a dig -got
thing.
We had obviously county council officers now.
The then cabinet member covering your portfolio, Councillor Epps, was invited and I think hoping
to attend and for circumstances no doubt beyond his control, I think it was the week of three
transport heads for Oxfordshire.
So I don't think, I think it was Rebecca while you, when we actually took, the meeting
actually took place.
But again, it would have been very short notice for her to attend given the timing of it.
So very happy to continue those conversations because I agree there is an awful lot that
is with the developer as well as the local authority.
What was, and why I do think this is in the, it was called a round day meeting because
it was that.
It was in the spirit of trying to find some solutions.
And so, as I'm sure some of the Oxfordshire County Council officers will attest to in
some of the conversations we had afterwards, I think there were things that we identified
where actually, because there's a very legitimate interest for Thames Valley Police in terms
of the enforcement of traffic regulations on private roads, that actually there's
a case to be made for some joint lobbying between local authorities and the police in
terms of some national changes to legislation and regulation, which I think are necessary.
There's the potential for a change to the system of bonds, which is there to protect
local authorities from exactly the case you've talked about where developers go bust, but
also can present a disincentive for developers getting on and delivering the whole lot in
one go because they can't afford it.
So there is a need to review that.
And there were some very constructive suggestions from Oxfordshire County Council officers about
about how they could potentially change processes
to make it easier for developers
to do the bits they need to do,
and therefore encourage developers, frankly,
to just part with a big wad of cash at the end of it
and hand it over to local authorities
and then say, yeah, that's over to you,
but to pay for that upfront with commuted sums.
So, yeah, that's a very quick summary
of the sorts of conversations we had,
but it was intended to be, and I think was on the day,
a very constructive meeting.
I'm pleased to hear that,
and I'd welcome the chance to follow that up,
and I'd offer Hayford Park as a great example
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:42:06
of where that is needed and where bringing the developer around the table would be key
to getting some success.
Could I interject and say why not at the initial planning stage, why do we not make it that
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:42:18
when these developments come before the planners, why don't we say you cannot sell the houses
until the roads are done and adopted so that they have the obligation is there. I know
it's pie in the sky, but the thing is that they then have to make sure everything works
works and is safe. I'm probably looking to Councillor Newton,
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:42:39
who I think is probably in the chair at the moment. I'm cautious about going off on
a tangent, but it's an issue that I've got quite enthusiastic about, as I'm sure
Councillor Epps has. I think one of the interesting nuances, and this is one of the things I think
we should look to change nationally, and I do fear we might be getting slightly off topic,
but developers will have to come to planning authorities to get planning consent for a
development, and then they will separately have to get highways consent, which is a different
regulation from the Department of Transport, from the MHCLG regulations on planning.
There are occasions where actually developers are saying, well, we can't implement some
of our planning obligations because the highways authority tell us we need to do it in a slightly
different way.
And one beneficial thing would be to bring those two systems of regulation together,
possibly see the sort of things you talk about.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:43:38
Thank you.
Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council - 1:43:41
I'm genuinely not going to get into the detail of road adoption.
I'm interested in why it is that you think this is a priority for use of your time as
Police and Crown Commissioner compared to the many other issues that you could be taking
up and why particularly did cop rather than anywhere else in the Thames Valley.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:44:00
Thank you, Chairman.
So it's one of many things that I like to do, Councillor Fawcett.
There are lots of issues, many of which we've talked about today.
This is one of many issues.
I do think it is important because I get plenty of correspondence from residents, as indeed
some members have talked about today, and I get correspondence from Councillors saying
why can't the police do some enforcement on our roads?
And I will point out that actually they can't.
The usual arguments about resources, et cetera, aside, they can't because actually the local
authority can't put a traffic, there isn't a traffic order in place on that road because
it is still privately owned.
Therefore, actually if we want effective enforcement by the police, which is certainly what the
public will complain to me about, I want to get those roads adopted.
And the particular estate in Dikot is one of the most, probably one of the most egregious,
and I'm sure it's one of the most frustrating for the County Council as well.
But I think that is 15 probably getting on for 20 years
at least 15 years
so it seems like a
typical location
Counsellor
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:45:09
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:45:11
I was just going to say to Councillor Cornell that perhaps we should have a slightly offline discussion
I mean things are slightly different in single tier and two tier authorities, but it is a point that
exercises many of us
Councillor Newton, please.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 1:45:27
Changing the subject a little bit, but still on topical issues, fairly close to where I
live in the early area of Wokingham, I was one of the many people who was really shocked
and saddened at the knife attack that ended in the murder of Mohammed Norbert in our community.
I think obviously our thoughts and prayers still remain with his family and friends and
God rest his soul.
But the issue that concerned us was that it was quite shocking and a sudden incident and
that caused some concerns amongst residents.
And it's not the sort of area where this is normally associated.
It's a very residential area.
It wasn't in a town centre or anything.
And I just wondered if you can offer any comfort to the residents around this sort of thing,
because I know you've talked elsewhere in the report about the knife crimes being down,
but actual murders, I think, from knives is not down.
But it's still quite shocking when this sort of thing happens, and in this instance there's
quite a few witnesses and stuff.
and what you might do to sort of help calm people where they're beginning to
feel nervous about just walking anywhere in our community at this time.
Yep, thank you. Through you Chairman, so in terms of the specifics and the
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:47:03
numbers thankfully are so small that a small change affects a percentage change.
our homicide rate is down over the last 12 months in Thames Valley but sadly those figures are quite
fragile because you only need one one or two incidents to change that and of course any loss
of life in an incident like this is is deeply concerning. Since we actually last spoke about
it offline in preparation of this meeting I note that the court case has been adjourned
until August. I'll be probably even more circumspect about what I say in those circumstances because
there is still a live case in court. I would want to offer the reassurance that certainly
from what I've seen around this investigation there is no wider issue that should concern
the public about if the circumstances around this or the nature of the offending that should
cause any wider alarm. Clearly any incident like this is going to cause concern. It's
almost too glib to say nobody expects it in their part of the world, but that is the response
you always get when something tragic happens. So very serious incident from what I've seen,
very good and swift investigation by Thames Valley Police. Clearly there's a live court
case. I wouldn't want to say too much more at this stage other than to try and offer
that reassurance.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:48:25
Thank you.
Any more questions in respect of topical issues, please?
No.
I'll take that as a no, thank you.

15 Work Programme

The next item on the agenda is to the work programme for the next meeting in September.
It's not the fullest, but it I think has got some great depth, well, things with depth
in it.
Obviously the local command unit implementation update.
I think it will be eight months or 12 months into that, Mr. Barber.
It will be 12, I think.
Thank you.
We would be interested to see the progress that that's made, whether it's an improvement
or not.
I think from the feedback I've had, some people think it's an improvement, others think it's
very backward in its way forward.
Claire's law update, again obviously very important, the update on TVP's financial position.
The CCTV partnership which has been very quiet in the past few months.
There's been nothing untoward about that and it's been not in the media either.
Very interesting subject compared to what we've just talked about of the section 106
finance.
Bear in mind the amount of developments going on there.
And the other thing I think we need to add to that is the white paper update, because
obviously there will be something hopefully by then to add to the list.
Has anybody got any other topics that they think should be raised or added to the work
programme?
No?
Thank you very much indeed.
If you would just come to the light, please notify Khalid.
And I think that draws our meeting to a close today.