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Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee
Thursday, 23rd July 2026 at 10:30am

 
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  1. Cllr Phil Gomm
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  1. Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
  2. Cllr Phil Gomm
  3. Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
  4. Cllr Phil Gomm
  5. Applicant
  6. Cllr Phil Gomm
  7. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  8. Applicant
  9. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  10. Cllr Phil Gomm
  11. Cllr Dean Field
  12. Laura Heller - Legal
  13. Applicant
  14. Cllr Phil Gomm
  15. Cllr Dean Field
  16. Cllr Phil Gomm
  17. Applicant
  18. Cllr Phil Gomm
  19. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  20. Applicant
  21. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  22. Applicant
  23. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  24. Cllr Phil Gomm
  25. Laura Heller - Legal
  26. Cllr Phil Gomm
  27. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  28. Cllr Phil Gomm
  29. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  30. Cllr Phil Gomm
  31. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  32. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  33. Cllr Kathy Gibbon
  34. Cllr Dean Field
  35. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  36. Cllr Dean Field
  37. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  38. Cllr Dean Field
  39. Cllr Phil Gomm
  40. Applicant
  41. Cllr Phil Gomm
  42. Laura Heller - Legal
  43. Cllr Phil Gomm
  44. Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
  45. Cllr Phil Gomm
  46. Laura Heller - Legal
  47. Cllr Phil Gomm
  48. Cllr Dean Field
  49. Cllr Phil Gomm
  50. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  51. Cllr Phil Gomm
  52. Laura Heller - Legal
  53. Cllr Phil Gomm
  54. Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
  55. Cllr Phil Gomm
  56. Cllr Dean Field
  57. Cllr Phil Gomm
  58. Laura Heller - Legal
  59. Cllr Phil Gomm
  60. Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
  61. Cllr Phil Gomm
  62. Applicant
  63. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  64. Cllr Phil Gomm
  65. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  66. Cllr Phil Gomm
  67. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  68. Cllr Phil Gomm
  69. Laura Heller - Legal
  70. Cllr Phil Gomm
  71. Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
  72. Cllr Phil Gomm
  73. Applicant
  74. Cllr Phil Gomm
  75. Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
  76. Cllr Phil Gomm
  77. Webcast Finished

Cllr Steven Broadbent - 0:00:00
Is the webcast on, Sunila?
Okay, we crack on then.
Good.
Okay, good morning ladies and gentlemen.
Our first business on the agenda is to confirm the chair,
which today is me, Philip Gaughan, Councillor.
So we continue from there.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:21
So again, welcome to the Buckinghamshire
Councillor Licencing Subcommittee here
and in relation to an application
for a temporary event notice for the 26th of July 2026 for premises located at S &S kitchen 58 Kingsbury
Ellsbury Buckinghamshire HP22JE. Something I just forgot to say does everyone realise we are on
webcast Stevie Beckford are you happy with that? Yes that's fine. Very kind thank you very much.
So, I as I say, I'm the Chairman for this hearing and now would like to introduce the
other panel members. So, we're going to go to our Councillors first please. Councillor
Gibbon.
Hello, I'm Cathy Gibbon and I'm the Councillor for Bearden, Kingsbrook and Wing.
And Councillor Field.
I'm Councillor Dean Field for Stoke Manifold, Wendover and Alton Ward.
Thank you very much. And as we continue down the process, we're now going to go to our
officers from Bucks Council, Miss Kerry -Ann Ashton.
Thank you, Chair. Yes, good morning. I'm Kerry -Ann Ashton. I'm the licencing officer for Buckinghamshire
Council. Thank
you very much. And Kerry -Ann will present the report and provide advice on any matters relating
to licencing policy, guidance and practise. Then as we move down, there's Miss
Laura Heller. Good morning everyone my name's Laura Heller I'm a solicitor from the council's
legal department acting as legal advisor to the panel today. And as she says she's here to advise
the panel on licencing and local government law this is to ensure that when the committee makes
a decision it's both within its powers and legally sound. Then continuing Mrs Sunila Hussain.
Good morning, Sheila Hussein, Partnership Support Officer in Democratic
Conservatives supporting the meeting today.
Very kind, thank you.
Then continuing down our list, also in attendance are the following who will be involved in the hearing
at various stages of discussion of the application.
Miss Stevie Beckford is the applicant, if you'd like to just introduce yourself, please.
I'm Stevie Beckford, I'm the supervisor.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Just give me a bit for that.
Yeah, your voice is sort of going in and out slightly.
I don't know why, but we'll just keep it monitored as we go through the hearing.
If it gets worse, we'll let you know.
Then onto the responsible authority is Mr Charlie Robinson.
Introduce yourself, please.
Good morning. Charlie Robinson, Environment Protection Team Leader.
Thank you very much. I can confirm that if a relevant person is not present and their
representation and their representations will have been read and will be considered when
reaching a decision. As we go down to the procedural items agenda item three, do we

3 Apologies for absence

have any apologies of absence? No Chairman. Thank you and continuing on agenda item four,

4 Declarations of interest

Turning now to the declarations of interest and the council's code of conduct,
do any members have a declaration of interest that they wish to bring to the attention of the subcommittee?
Councillors, I do this anyway.
Many people in else, but also sitting as chair, I get to meet many of these different people.
I would like to say that I've chaired some hearings to do with the premises we're discussing today.
I do come as always with an open clear mind to listen to the application and make
a decision at the end. Thank you.

5 Hearing Procedure Rules

At right, so we then move on agenda item five. We have the licences subcommittee hearing procedure
rules which are appended to the agenda pack for information. Please can all parties and
attendees confirm that they have seen and understood the procedure to be followed at the hearing.
Everybody?
Yep.
Thank you very much for that. That's good. I'm glad you're done actually. Can't see you so
artsy was very good at you. Thank you very much that Stevie Beckford. Thank you.
The purpose of the hearing should be borne in mind at all times to enable those with
a right to appear to advance their point of view and concern to test the case of their
opponents and to assist the subcommittee to gather evidence and understand the relevant
issues. Please be reminded that parties should only address the subcommittee in relation
to matters previously raised or submitted. The subcommittee may depart from this procedure
if it considers it necessary and or equitable to do so.
Do we have any preliminary issues?
No, Chair, no issues.
Thank you. Let's advise and serve that one.
So now we move on to the premises application itself,
which is Agenda Item 6 for anyone that's watching in.

6 S&S Kitchen, 58 Kingsbury, Aylesbury, HP20 2JE (Temporary Event Notice (T.E.N.))

We now move to consider the officer report being presented this morning
in respect of a temporary event notice for S &S Kitchen, 58 Kingsbury, Ellsbury, Buckinghamshire,
HP 20 to JE. Please note that you should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters
previously raised. Any late evidence will only be considered with the consent of all
parties. I believe we don't have any late submissions anyway, do we? No. So I'd now
like to invite the licencing officer Miss Ashton to present and report outlining the
details of the application and representations received. Over to you. Thank you. Thank you,
Chair. So the temporary event notice has been submitted by Mrs Stevie Beckford in respect
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:06:40
of S &S Kitchen, 58 Kingsbury, Elsbury, Buckinghamshire. The premises is located within Elsbury Town
Centre in Kingsbury Square, which is an area of mixed commercial and residential premises.
The premises does have a premises licence, which currently authorises the sale of alcohol,
late night refreshment and live music, and a copy of their current premises licence and
associated plan is attached as Appendix 2.
This calendar year, 2026, the premises has served 11 temporary event notices for the
I'm sorry to interrupt, Carrie -Anne. Chair, it looks like Stevie Beckford has dropped off the call.
Okay, let's stop and wait. Thank you for noticing that.
Thank you, Chair.
There we go, she's trying to get back in now.
Stevie Beckford, you dropped out there. Where did you go?
Yeah, I'm so sorry, I don't know. I swiped up on my phone, I didn't realise.
That sounds a lot sharper now actually, it sounds a lot better. Stevie Bickford, where did you hear up to from Kerry and Ashton? She had just started.
That we have a premises slicer.
Yeah, okay.
That's in this kitchen.
That sounds a lot better, you sound better now.
Okay.
Yeah, thank you. Kerry and Ashton, if you'd like to continue, thank you.
Thank you. So this calendar year in 2026,
the premises has served 11 temporary event notices
for 58 Kingsbury, Ellesbury, Buckinghamshire.
Under the Licencing Act 2003,
there are limits on the number of tens that
can be applied for each year.
So five tens if you're a non -personal licence holder,
50 tens if you're a personal licence holder,
you can have two late tens.
if you're a non -personal licence holder,
and 10 if you're a personal licence holder.
Or a premises can have 15 to 10 premises,
but only up to a maximum of 21 days in a calendar year.
A location plan showing the location of
this premises is attached to the report marked as Appendix 1.
So the 10 submitted proposes that on
On the 26th of July, 2026, the premises is tended to be used for licence black activities.
A copy of the 10 is attached to report marked as appendix 3.
The licence black activity sorts are the sell by retail of alcohol both on and off the premises
from midnight to 4 a .m. and the provision of regulation entertainment also from midnight
to 4 a .m.
Following the submission of the 10, we received no objection from Thames Valley Police.
And Environmental Health submitted an objection on the grounds of preventing public nuisance,
and a copy of their objection is attached to the report marked as Appendix 4.
Under Section 99 of the Licencing Act, the Council's Environmental Health Department
is defined as a relevant person.
Under section 104 of the Licencing Act, the police and environmental health have up to
three working days following receipt of a tent to give an objection to the event where
they consider that proposed licenceable activities will undermine a licencing objective, which
are the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public nuisance
and the protection of children from harm.
The objection received from Environmental Health raises the following issues.
The objection follows recent complaints from residents living near premises concerning
from events that have happened under previous tents, particularly those held on the 21st
of June and the 5th of July. Both of these tents were from midnight to 4 a .m. The complaints
relate to amplified music and regulated entertainment continuing into the early hours of the morning.
Environmental Health reviewed the Noise App recording submitted by residents in relation
to the 5th of July event. The recordings show music from the premises remained clearly audible
within the neighbouring residential properties until approximately 0349 hours, with recordings
taken from several rooms within a complainant's home. Environmental Health considers this
evidence indicative of a significant level of disturbance at a time when residents would
reasonably expect to enjoy rest and quiet. Whilst they acknowledge that some previous
events have not generated substantial complaints, Environmental Health considers the recent
complaint history demonstrates an ongoing risk of disturbance where entertainment extends
into the early hours. Environmental Health also notes that the premises does not have
formal noise management plan in place to control and monitor noise arising from the licenseable
activities. Given that the 10 seeks authorization for activities until 4 a .m. and
having regard to the evidence obtained from recent events operating at similar hours, environmental
health is not satisfied that the licencing objective of preventing public nuisance
would adequately be promoted. Consequently, environmental health has submitted an objection
to this 10 and request that it be considered by the licencing authority.
In terms of policy considerations, the revised guidance issued under section 182 of the Licencing
Act states the legislation provides a clear focus on the promotion of the four statutory
objectives which must be addressed when licencing functions are undertaken.
Each objective is of equal importance.
there are no other statutory licencing objectives.
So the promotion of the four licencing objectives
is of paramount consideration at all times.
In relation to temporary event notice,
the statutory guidance states,
the system of permitted temporary activities
is intended as a light touch process.
And as such, the carrying of licenced activities
does not have to be authorised
by the licencing authority on application.
Instead, a person wishing to hold an event
at which such activities are proposed to be carried on,
gives notice to the licencing authority
as a temporary event notice.
There are two types of 10, a standard 10 and a late 10.
And a standard 10 must be given no later
than 10 working days before the event.
The police and environmental health then have a period
of three working days from when they are given the 10
to object to it on the basis of any of the four licencing objectives.
If the licencing authority receives an objection notice from the police or environmental health
that is not withdrawn, it must hold a hearing to consider the objection. The licencing committee
may decide to allow the licence activities to go ahead as stated in the notice. If the
notice is in connexion with licence activities at a licenced premises, the licencing authority
may also impose one or more of the existing licence conditions on the 10, if it considers
that this is appropriate for the promotion of the licencing objectives.
Where a standard 10 is given, the licencing authority must consider the objection at a
hearing before a counter notice can be issued.
In relation to the prevention of public nuisance, the statutory guidance states the 2003 Act
enables licencing authorities and responsible authorities through representations to consider
what constitutes public nuisance and what is appropriate to prevent it in terms of conditions
attached to premises licences. It is therefore important that in considering the promotion
of this licencing objective, licencing authorities and responsible authorities focus on the effect
of licence activities at the specific premises on persons living and working in the area
around the premises which may be disproportionate and unreasonable.
Public nuisance is given statutory meaning in many pieces of legislation.
It is however not narrowly defined in the 2003 Act and retains its broad common law
meaning.
It is important to remember that the prevention of public nuisance could therefore include
low level nuisance perhaps affecting a few people living locally as well as major disturbances
affecting the whole community.
It may also include, in appropriate circumstances,
the reduction of these living and working immunity
in an environment of other persons living and working
in the area of the licenced premises.
Where applications have given rise to representations,
any appropriate condition should normally
focus on the most sensitive parts.
For example, music noise from premises usually occurs
from mid -evening until either late evening or early morning when residents in adjacent
properties may be attempting to sleep or sleeping.
And beyond the immediate area surrounding the premises, these are matters for personal
responsibility of individuals under the law.
An individual who engages in antisocial behaviour is accountable in their own right.
Regard must also be had to the Council's licencing policy published in March 2022 when determining
whether this event can proceed. Licencing is concerned with the promotion of the four
licencing objectives, the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of
public nuisance and the protection of children from harm. The Council in its role as the
licencing authority must ensure that when it carries out licencing functions, it does
so with a view to promoting the licencing objectives. The licencing policy seeks to
balance the interests of businesses and residents to make sure that Buckinghamshire Council
continues to offer a wide choice of high quality and well managed entertainment and cultural
venues within an environment that is safe and attractive to residents, businesses and
visitors. In relation to the prevention of public nuisance,
the policy states public nuisance relates to the negative effect of nuisances, including
noise, light, odour, dust and litter affecting or likely to affect at least a few separate
households locally. The licencing authority is keen to protect the amenity of residents
and businesses in the vicinity of licenced premises. At the same time, the licencing
authority is aware that licenced trade is important to the local economy and promoting
the council's culture and leisure aspirations. Consequently, the licencing authority will
try to work together with statutory agencies, licenced businesses, residents and other businesses
to reach a compromise in its decision making. In considering all licenced applications,
the licencing authority will consider the measures proposed to deal with the potential
for public nuisance, having regard to all circumstances of the application are adequate.
Much weight will be placed on the recommendations made by environmental health in terms of preventing
public nuisance. The policy states that particular measures
include noise escape, customer arrivals, smokers, customer departure and the use of outside
areas. The licencing policy also recognises that licencing is not the primary mechanism
for controlling antisocial behaviour away from licenced premises. Nevertheless, licenced
premises can contribute to antisocial behaviour and therefore form part of the wider strategy
for managing town centre, rural communities and their evening economy.
In terms of determination of the temporary event notice, the panel is obliged to determine
this matter with a view to promoting the four licencing objectives, which are the prevention
of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public nuisance and the protection of children
from harm. In making its decision, the panel is also
obliged to have regard to the national guidance and the Council statement of licencing policy.
Should the panel depart from either, it must specify its reasons for doing so. The panel
must also take into consideration all of the representations made and the evidence submitted,
both written and orally, today at the hearing. In promoting the licencing objectives, the
can take any of the following decisions in relation to this matter.
They can permit the event to proceed subject to one or more conditions which are on the
existing premises licence and which are appropriate to promote the licencing objectives.
Or they can issue the premises user with a counter notice which acts as a refusal for
the event to proceed if it considers it is appropriate for the promotion of the licencing
objectives to do so and not inconsistent with the carrying out of the licenceable activities
under the 10. The panel should also consider its responsibilities under the Human Rights
Act when considering the fair balance between the interests of the applicant and the rights
of local residents. Any decision taken must be appropriate and proportionate to the objective
being pursued. In particular, the following should be taken into consideration. Article
Article 8, Respect for Family and Private Life and Article 1, the first protocol, Peaceful
enjoyment of possessions, which can include possession of a licence. That concludes my
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:21:12
report, Chair. I'm happy to answer any questions. You're on mute, Chair.
I'm doing that a lot, I don't know what's wrong with me. Does Miss Stevie Beckford wish
to put any questions to the licencing officer? No. Thank you. And does Charlie Robinson of
the responsible authority wish to put any questions to the licencing officer? No thank
you chair. Thank you. Now I'm going to go around to members. I'd go if you'd like to
any questions to licencing officer. Councillor Gibbon, we'll go to you first. No thank you.
Thank you. Councillor Field. No thank you, Chair. Thank you. I've just got a couple that I'd like
to pick up on. One, you mentioned in the application, I just want to clarify this,
the sale of alcohol on and off of the premises. You mentioned at the beginning of does that allow
them to sell on and off?
Just checking the yes, yes, the temporary event notice was for the provision of both
on and off the premises for the sale of alcohol.
Yeah.
OK.
And so that means anyone could come in, purchase some alcohol and then go away and that'd be
OK.
In theory, they could sell alcohol to be taken away as off sales.
Okay good, thank you. And then the other clarification I'd like to do is with this, with the objection against it, I noticed that Stevie Beckford applied on the 11th of July, that is normally a three -day period, and that was on the 11th of July.
And then the response and then a date of acknowledgement was the 13th of July.
And then Charlie Robertson's response to that was the 15th of July.
Now they have a three day period. Could you correct me?
You could see where I'm going. Was that out of time or was it in time?
Do you go by the acknowledgement date or the application's submission?
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:23:33
So it's working days. So although the 10 was submitted on a Saturday, it wasn't received by the authority until the Monday, which obviously Environmental Health then get three working days to respond.
Okay. I didn't mind me drilling in on that one.
No, no, Chair, that's a very relevant point. Thank you.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:23:57
So I would hate for Stevie Beckford to think, well I've done this and it's three days.
So I'd like to cover that on her behalf.
Okay, so as we move on, I'd now like to invite the applicant to address the hearing.
Miss Stevie Beckford, if you'd like to present please.
Applicant - 0:24:13
Hello, good morning everybody.
SNSL Kitchen is a small family run business.
We've been part of Alsbury, I'm sure you all know, for five years.
Well, part of Alsbury for ten years, but been in the restaurant for five years.
Like many businesses in the hospitality, we've faced significant financial challenges,
and these events have become an important part of helping us keep the business open and project local jobs.
I completely understand the concerns that have been raised by environmental health and local residents.
I want the panel to know that we have listened to those concerns and have already made changes
rather than ignoring them.
We have moved our speakers away from the adjoining wall, installed foam insulated pads under
the base speaker to reduce vibration through the building, reduced bass levels and kept
the music at a reasonable level.
Throughout our events we carry out regular cheques outside the premises, which we do have
videos of, just for evidence if needed.
and if we believe the music is too loud, we reduce it immediately.
I know you're aware that recently we did keep an event and the speakers had been set up nearer to the windows,
which we wouldn't ever allow again, and that was a mistake that the DJ made and had already been set up once.
We've realised it was in the wrong location.
We also have CCTV throughout the premises, SIA, registered security, walkie -talkies for communication between staff and security,
and we actively encourage customers to leave quietly at the end of the evening.
We recognise there is always room for improvement. In the future we'd like to instal professional
noise monitoring equipment and commission of an independent acoustic assessment. Unfortunately,
because the business is currently struggling financially we cannot afford this at this time.
That isn't because we don't want to, we do. It's because our financial position doesn't allow it
at the moment.
We are committed to continuing to work
with environmental health and the council.
If they make recommendations,
we will continue to implement them
wherever we reasonably can.
We want to find a balance that allows us to operate
while respecting those who live nearby.
This is a temporary event,
though it's not a permanent variation.
We are asking the panel to allow the opportunity
to continue operating this individual event
while we continue demonstrating
that we will responsibly and continue making improvements.
We respectfully ask the panel to consider
the practical changes we've already made,
our willingness to work with the authorities
and the importance these events have
for the survival of our business.
And that's everything.
Thank you.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:26:59
Thank you very much, Stevie Beckford,
for your presentation alongside the application.
Does the Licencing Officer have any questions for Ms Stevie Beckford?
No chair, no questions, thank you.
Thank you. And does Charlie Robinson wish to put any questions to Ms Beckford?
No thank you Chairman.
Now we go round to our members. Any questions to put to Stevie Beckford? I'll go to Councillor Gibbons first.
Okay, I'll just ask like one now and then I'll come back later give somebody else a chance.
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:27:40
My first one really is, sort of being a bit nosy, what actually is the event that you are going to
be running or requesting to run on the 26th? I'm just interested what's sort of different about it,
what actually is it?
Sorry the event is just it's not there's no difference to other events that we kept before
it is the same event it's a DJ led music night that we keep at Essner's kitchen. We operate as
a restaurant during during the day and the evening and later in the night we provide recorded music
Applicant - 0:28:15
with a DJ. So just on that then, so you've had I think a couple of complaints recently,
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:28:24
how long have you been running these events till sort of four in the morning? Have you
done sort of quite a lot? Oh yeah, you've been running for five years? We have and we
started not long after we just opened in 2021. So far from what the online portal tells me,
we've done 11 this year.
And we didn't have any complaints this year until we put in for the permanent licence.
And then that's when we most recently got the two complaints.
So was there anything different about those two events?
Was it noisy or was it a different type of music?
I'm just sort of trying to see whether it was these events are always noisy,
but people have just reached a point where they've had enough
whether those two were there was something different and so they were unusually loud?
Well one of the speakers, so we had an agreement that would keep the speakers to the left,
looking at the premises, to the left of the premises and most recently a DJ set up
and he had put them towards the front of the premises which could have probably made a difference.
And you've mentioned just recently today that you are going to go outside and sort of regularly monitor the sound.
Were you doing that previously or is this a new thing that you're going to implement?
No, we have previously done it, but we're making sure we do it more regularly now than we had before.
That's it for me and I'll come back later after other people have asked their questions. Thank you very much.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:30:13
Councillor Gibb
I have a few questions. So regarding your statement there, Stevie, you said regarding
Cllr Dean Field - 0:30:34
hardship and things like that. So how many businesses stay open or late night entertainment
places, so in alcohol and DJ, are within the area of Kingsbury?
Sorry, I'm within the area.
Sorry, in Kingsbury Square, where you're located there, aren't you?
In Kingsbury Square we have Emperor's Lounge, Feathers and Mirage.
Yeah, and so they're… Sorry, are they open till 4 o 'clock in the morning?
No, they are open till 3 and then Mirage often gets temporary event notices till 4 o 'clock as well and sometimes Emperor's Lounge.
OK, my other question to you now regarding the complaints or your complaints procedure,
say you have a complaint at two o 'clock in the morning, two thirty in the morning,
how does the complainant actually get hold of you and more importantly do you block those complaints
if you can just answer those couple of little questions for us?
Yes, if a complainant wanted to get hold of me, they would go into the restaurant I take, I would say, and complain to the staff.
And I'd obviously hear or complain to myself. I'm always willing to hand out my mobile number, so if any complainants want to contact me to complain about the level of noise, I can also talk to them as and when they want.
OK, so do you, let's recap this a little bit another way.
Do you just say you've got a TENS event coming up and do you actually go round and lessons learned,
like everyone do lessons learned, you've had complaints in the past by certain residents.
Do you go round there to say that I've got an event coming up, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
Do you engage there?
Well, the complainant that we get the complaints from doesn't actually live in a premises next door to us.
And Charlie could confirm that as well.
OK. And my last question, I know you're going outside to monitor the sound, etc.
Is that with the approved, obviously, in your presentation, you said that you can't afford the correct noise thing,
but you use some kind of app, it gives you an outlined figure, doesn't it? Or does it? Sorry.
Yes, yes, that's correct. Unfortunately, we can't afford the system at the moment, but we will, we want to get it,
at the moment we can't afford it so hopefully in the near future we can we can invest into that.
Okay I don't have any questions yet on any more thank you chair. Thank you Stevie.
Thank you very much. Legal Laura has got her hand up.
Laura Heller - Legal - 0:33:50
Yeah just to clarify Miss Beckford because I think what Councillor Field was trying to establish
is whether or not you currently use any type of noise monitoring equipment or whether it
is physical cheques that are being carried out and then whoever is carrying out those cheques are in
effect carrying out that assessment of the suitability of the noise at that stage. So are
you just able to assist the members with that please? Thank you Chair. Yeah so we have recently
Applicant - 0:34:21
downloaded an app that can monitor the noise as well on our phone, but we have mainly been
doing physical, sorry, we have mainly been doing cheques ourselves without the app, but
recently we've downloaded an app so we can monitor the level of noise as well.
Okay, very good. Okay, I see that Councillor Field has got his hand up again.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:34:46
Cllr Dean Field - 0:34:51
Thanks you much for confirming that. So you've got a handheld app. So do you know the acceptable decibel levels?
And are those people who are using the app, have they had any form of training or any advice regarding what's acceptable and what's not acceptable?
Sorry, well no we're quite new to the app ourselves but I believe it was 80 we was told.
Okay, okay I've got no no further questions and thanks again to the Chairman Stevie, thank you.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:35:43
Lovely, Councillor Field.
Councillor Gibbon, I'm going to come back to you because you said you might have had a few more questions.
So I'll just double cheque in first.
Just one short one then. Do you ensure after 11 o 'clock at night that the door is shut when you're playing the music?
We do, yeah.
All doors and windows are closed.
Happy with that?
That's it for me, yes, thank you.
Okay, very good. I've only just got a couple here. You said about the the 10s this year that you've
had there's been no complaints but I look on page 49 of of the environment team and they said there
were. Did they make you aware of that, Stevie Beckford? No, only most recently in the when I was
in the meeting for the permanent licence, I was made aware but before that I hadn't been made
aware of those complaints. Okay and you mentioned the app which is nice of you to bring up that's
quite good. It's so just as well how do I go around this one it's a question but maybe
a little bit of guidance is the DJ do they have have they got their noise limiters linked
into their system too because on there like say graphic equalisers or something like that
they can have a noise limiter on there that helps do you know if they've got those?
I believe so but I'm not 100 % sure I'd have to cheque. Yeah I was just sort of that's a little
bit of advice sort of going that way to maybe look into as well. So well we have we have recently
Applicant - 0:37:40
spoken, had a conversation with our DJ that we have most of the time, a resident DJ. And he's agreeing that he's going to work with us as well to make sure that the noise is at a reasonable level.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:37:57
Yeah and the last question, this is just playing a little bit devil's advocate here, would you consider, hold on Kathy Gibbon would you like to ask the question before my last question?
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:12
Yes, okay, sorry. I just, I just like you to just detail for me really what your plans
are moving forward to reduce the sound because I sort of, I've got bits and drabs, I'd just
like to get it clear in my head, the different stages that you're going to, different things
you're going to do to ensure that people aren't disturbed at three o 'clock in the morning.
Applicant - 0:38:40
We would like to get a noise limiter when once we can afford it, at the moment we can't otherwise
we would have got it a long time ago. We would like to get a noise limiter and we'd also like to
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:55
invest in acoustic curtains. It's all brilliant and hopefully that you will earn enough money to
do that, I really hope you do, but what will you be doing in the interim because in the
interim people may still be disturbed. So what are you going to do between now and the
ideal situation to make sure that residents aren't disturbed? I know you've talked about
it briefly, I'd just like to sort of have it a bit clearer in my mind please.
Well before the most recent complaints the speakers was to the left of the premises looking
Applicant - 0:39:18
at the premises. So I think we didn't have no complaints when the speakers was positioned
in the premises like that. So we'll continue doing that and as I said we have the mat to stop the bays vibrating.
And you're saying you're going outside with one of the chairs?
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:39:42
Yeah. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Councillor. Thank you, Chairman.
You sure?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:39:51
Very good. Okay, yes, am I allowed to finish now? Yeah, good. So my last question Stevie Beckford is this.
It's just playing a little bit of devil's advocate here. Is would you consider, I'm sure Ligo are going to pick me up on this one.
Would you consider changing the finishing time of your TENS licence to be a bit earlier?
If I can just interject there, Councillor, because the TEN application is until four o 'clock
Laura Heller - Legal - 0:40:33
and any modification to the application would have needed to have taken place following consentable parties
prior to the hearing.
And so the matter to be determined today
is the 10 as applied for, i .e. those licenceable activities
until 4 a .m.
So it is something going forward
that certainly Ms. Beckford can consider,
but in order for today's purposes,
the application is until 4 a .m. to be determined.
Thank you very much.
You could see where I was going just to, you know,
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:41:00
in case colleagues wanted to sort of try
and do a compromise.
I don't know, I just, that's my job is to dig in and find out.
But thank you very much for correcting me as always and I appreciate that.
Continuing on then, so we go there with question to Stevie Beckford from Officers and colleagues.
Now on the agenda, Charlie Robinson, your name is not mentioned to present but are you going to present?
I will be yes it may well be of my colleague who submitted the response on my behalf, I'll
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:41:36
say it's myself that will be presenting yes Chairman. Okay so now we've dealt with the
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:41:41
Licencing Officer and Stevie Beckford, is that Stevie Beckford is there any more points you'd
like to make before we continue on? No. Thank you. So Charlie Robinson I'm going to hand over
the screen to you to present and then be questioned.
Thank you, Chairman. There may be a couple of bits that we might want to revisit following my initial submission as a result of the discussions that have happened since with Stevie so we can pick those up towards the end.
Obviously, I'm aware you've all received the PAC, including my representation, so I will
provide sort of a brief position as we currently stand.
Obviously, Environmental Health has submitted an objection to the temporary event notice
on the grounds of prevention of public nuisance.
As you've heard, the ten seeks for the extension of the sale of alcohol and regulated entertainment
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:42:34
until four o 'clock in the morning.
And Environmental Health still considers that these hours are unsuitable given the close
proximity to residential properties surrounding the premises.
Members should be aware that environmental health have quite significant history of
involvement with this premises, dating back to, I believe, our initial
engagement was in 2024 in relation to these exact type events.
So during 2024 and 2025, we received a number of complaints relating to
noise from events operating under temporary event notices.
Those complaints during 2024 resulted in environmental health objecting to two previous temporary event notices in August of 24 and September of 24, which were ultimately counter noticed by the subcommittee following hearing.
Most recently, as you've heard, the subcommittee considered the permanent variation for the application to extend the premises licence hours until four o 'clock for every Friday and Saturday.
I just thought it's worth mentioning that for full context.
Although suggested previously by Environmental Health during our engagement through 2024
and 2025, as you've heard from Stevie, the applicant, as of now has not presented any
form of acoustic assessment or noise limits.
Some mitigation has been presented and no detailed noise management plan in terms of
written form that could be followed and checked against. And all of these aspects that we
would expect to demonstrate how nuisance would be prevented during late night operation.
Even with the controls that have been implemented, Environmental Health have significant concerns
about the suitability for the premises for the hours proposed. As you've heard, the premises
shares a party wall with residential units and also has residential units opposite and
to the rear which I'll come on to briefly in a moment. At this time given my understanding of
the premises and the operations as part of these events I cannot see how the premises would be able
to operate this type of event as proposed without whilst upholding the prevention of public nuisance
licencing objective. In terms of recent complaints and apologies some of this information hasn't been
able to shed in advance, but it's an extension of my initial submission.
So Environmental Health currently have three active complainants from separate households
and two further historical complainants from separate households.
So five in total during our involvement, three active ones currently.
Environmental Health as of today have received complaints relating to the events held on
the 20th of June, the 28th of June, 5th of July, 12th of July and 18th of July.
So that is the last one, two, three, four, five events held at the premises.
And they are a weekly event that were permitted at that point under temporary event notices.
So the last five temporary event notices,
we have received complaints from three separate residential properties.
There was some delay in gaining this information ahead of the variation hearing
and ahead of me submitting my submissions during that three day period, mainly because
the environmental health general advice to complainants is to keep a record of issues.
And then once they have a record of a, and then they can prove a pattern essentially,
and they have sufficient evidence, then they submit that to us.
And that has been received since the submission of of my representation.
As you can see from the frequency of events, most recently the temporary event notices submitted, the premises are essentially trying to replicate the use of
a weekly event through the use of temporary event notices, whereas previously in previous years, 2025, it was more like a monthly situation for residents to sort of cope with. Now it's a weekly
attempt through the spring and summer.
Complainants have referenced a significant interference with sleep caused by music and people noise
up until and past closure of four o 'clock in the morning as people disperse.
And complainants report that they essentially live in concern and trepidation of what would be happening
that following Saturday into Sunday morning as it completely affects their weekends and
prevents sleep. These recent complaints solidify our concerns with regards to potential for
noise disturbance arising from late night entertainment at the location. Environmental
health as always, we remain willing to actively engage with the premises management. However,
there's obviously only there's a limit to how much we can do and how much we can suggest.
Steve he's kindly listed some of the as part of our submission some of the controls that have been put in place, however, the receipt of complaints more recently suggest that these are not sufficient in their current form.
What I would add there as well as we've discussed about the.
the anti -vibration mount under the subwoofer speakers
or the boat to reduce base
and the movement of speakers away from the party wall.
Those controls are specifically in place really
to control the impact on the adjacent neighbours.
Without being able to have sort of a technical assessment,
I'm unable to say that that would help
that reduce the impact on residents opposite
and to the rear of the premises. So it's just worth obviously the conversations I've had with
Stevie in the past were primarily in relation to complaints from one side of the premises.
We've now got complainants from multiple sites and therefore the controls need to be
sort of re -looked at from that perspective. And essentially for those reasons, Chairman,
we remain unsatisfied that the temporary event notice could go ahead whilst promoting the
prevention of public nuisance objective and therefore our objection still stands at that
point. I'm happy to open up for any questions because I appreciate there was quite a lot
of information there. Thank you Chairman.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:49:10
Thank you very much Charlie Robinson. Okay, so we go to our licencing officer first. Any
questions for Charlie Robinson?
No questions Chair, thank you.
Okay Stevie Beckford over to you please. Any questions you'd like to to put forward to Mr Robinson?
No questions. Thank you. Now to colleagues, Councillor Gibbon you could go first please.
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:49:43
Yes I just got a couple of questions. One I just want to confirm something that you said.
So am I right in assuming that Stevie Beckford has already implemented some of these sound
mitigations with the woofer something or whatever you called and moving the speakers and
even having done that it's still too noisy is that correct? That's correct so I mean the
the initial conversations I had with the premises operators was I believe in sort of
April, May time of last year following the previous temporary event notices being refused.
Myself and Kerry -Ann went down to the premises actually to have a meeting with them. We discussed
some potential controls that they may wish to consider and that included moving the speaker
and potentially having that anti -vibration mount. From what Stevie has said, I understand that that
is standard practise for these type of events now that those have been implemented but unfortunately
yes, we have continued to receive complaints, even if those were in place for the last five temporary event notices.
OK, thank you. My only other one is just to be fair, that it was mentioned that there are other venues.
Is all the noise that is disturbing the residents from them or could it be from the other venues as well?
So I think we want to be fair here.
More than happy to cover that.
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:51:10
What I would say is I believe Stevie may have mentioned that some of those premises were open till three o 'clock
I wouldn't be able to confirm that exactly. I was under the impression that
Emperor's lounge which is probably the the closest in proximity
Their licence allows them for music until two o 'clock in the morning and then closure by 2 30. I
haven't got the
hours for the feathers in front of me unfortunately at the moment and
Mirage is a little bit further down Buckingham Street.
I don't have the hours for those.
What I would say is obviously,
the complaints are submitting complaints to say that there's
issues from noise up until four o 'clock in the morning.
On those dates and there are no other premises that are
licenced to have music until
four o 'clock in the morning on those dates.
I have cross -reference to see if there were
temporary event notices in place for
other premises within the area and we can
attribute the complaints to that premises.
What I would say is obviously at the moment
an officer hasn't been out during the time of events
to confirm that, but we have had noise app recordings
submitted which indicate the complainant
has to put a statement on there to say that
what they're putting on is true to the best
of their knowledge and they attribute it
to the SNS kitchen.
And I have, although not since 2025,
I have been out myself to witness music from residents properties at approximately 2 .30 in the morning and could confirm that the disturbance being experienced was from S &S kitchen during that visit.
So there's bits there that we can pull from to suggest that we are confident that the disturbance is coming from there. Apologies, that was quite a long answer for a fairly simple question.
Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:53:01
Now that's brilliant, thank you. I just wanted to sort of make sure we covered all that happy news, but thank you very much, that's brilliant.
Councillor Gibbon, you stole one of my questions in there, but you do that frequently. Councillor Field.
Cllr Dean Field - 0:53:16
Yes, hello there Charlie. You mentioned five dates, two after what we was, sorry two additional dates in July, one on the 12th, one being on the 18th.
Are they all, are those complaints all about one topic noise?
Yes. Right. Yeah. All about noise and from music and people noise associated with the premises on those dates.
Fantastic. So so once you've had those complaints in once being on the 12th, once being on the 18th, have you spoken to Stevie or SNS Kitchen regarding these concerns?
So I haven't with regards to those new dates because we only received the information from
complainants yesterday so I've not had an opportunity to contact the premises yet. I've
spoken with the complainants to explain the process of our investigation following a complaint
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:54:22
and essentially ask them to keep records of further disturbance and that sort of thing
And then the next stage would be arranging for either a meeting or a conversation with the premises to essentially sort of thrash out the details of that from their perspective.
OK, so if it's regarding noise again and having listened to what Stevie said in opening comments,
She mentioned about the two days which we had, the 21st of June and the 5th of July,
and the blame was then put onto the location of the speakers.
I'd be intrigued to find out what the excuse is for the other dates if lessons have been learned.
So that's that sort of side.
The question benefits to yourself.
Regarding the appropriate and correct noise equipment,
What's the, and I think Stevie said they can't afford it at the moment because it's very expensive.
My question is, if you were having a premises, can these people actually hire this approved equipment with all this and not to buy it?
And so I'm not sure whether the hiring is an option to be honest, it's not something I've come across in the past. What I would say is, and this is the advice that I've provided to the premises in the past and I think I spoke about it in a committee in the past, is that what I don't want the premises to do is to go out and spend lots of money on a system that then it isn't appropriate for the venue.
and that's why seeking independent advice is the most important thing.
Sound limiters, noise limiters are brilliant and appropriate for the relevant premises that they're installed in.
It doesn't mean that they're going to be appropriate for every premises.
So the last thing I'd want them to do is go out and spend thousands of pounds on a noise limiter to have it installed and then that not solve the problem.
That's where that advice, you know, there may be more appropriate and cheaper controls that can be put in place
that would then do the job just as well.
So that's why I always stress the importance of them seeking appropriate advice.
It wouldn't be appropriate for Environmental Health to provide that advice.
It would need to be independent advice.
So that's why I encourage them to seek that.
There are a number of organisations that support music venues and that sort of thing in gaining that advice.
So I would direct them to that before making any decisions.
Cllr Dean Field - 0:57:10
OK, and my last question, if I may, with the new dates, because we're not seeing that in our packs, regarding the times of those complaints, what times in the evening are they referring to?
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:57:29
So they are referring to, and I can do this off the top of my head because it's a consistent complaint to say that they are being disturbed by noise and people, sorry music and people noise up until four o 'clock in the morning, and then for approximately, you know,
that we have to consider that once the premises is closed
and people have moved away,
then that's no longer their responsibility.
But they, just to provide full context,
they complained that there's people noise
up until approximately an hour after closing,
so five o 'clock in the morning,
but music up until four is the consistent main issue.
For those who are towards the front of the premises,
they complained about smokers and people queuing
also to get inside and the noise that comes from that because all of that happens at the front of the premises.
The premises doesn't have any smoking space to the rear, for example.
So music is the main issue up until four o 'clock. OK, well, thanks very much for your answers and thanks very much for that.
Cllr Dean Field - 0:58:24
Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:58:25
Thank you very much, Councillor Fields, and another one that's answered some of my questions there.
But anyway, so I'm just going to just dig a little bit, just to put it up for my two colleagues of what they've said to you as well.
And, you know, so people interference, they've asked that, you know, could it be from other venues?
But you clarified, because, you know, when you look into Kingsbury Square there, you've got Rockwood in the corner that with their entertainment,
You've then got the feathers over the way with their entertainment. I think that's where it is. Yeah. In the square. So there's a lot of people, combustion in the area.
Then you've got some James's stroke mirage round the corner. So there's a lot of people activity. So, and oh, and then across the road, you've got that new restaurant that plays music as well.
They, I think they applied for a licence.
Yeah, they're not quite open yet, Chairman.
Ah, right. Okay. I just wanted to verify that because I just want everyone to realise there is a lot of activity in that area.
But like you confirmed and you're correct, Miraj and all of those is two o 'clock.
We were clear out by two thirty. So, and then you're saying the complaints are coming in after that period?
Yeah, and sort of anecdotal information, I suppose, so you consider what sort of weight you put on that.
But residents, as part of their complaints, have said that they expect a certain level of noise.
They understand that they are in a town centre setting and they accept that there is noise up until a certain point.
However, their main issue is with...
There is an issue with the music continuing past that sort of 2 -2 .30 mark where the rest of the
the rest of the town quietens down and then the significant impact is as a result of the
S &S kitchen operation past that time because it's the only premises operating and it extends until
four o 'clock time. Okay now I'm going to do something because it's my privilege to do say,
although I'm questioning you now because we are in the member section, I did give Stevie Beckford
opportunity earlier on but she's got her hand up and if you would oblige me I'm going to allow her
to ask a question. Of course chairman. Stevie Beckford? Yeah sorry just to point out it is
Applicant - 1:01:00
actually three o 'clock Mirage closes and often Emperor's Lounge and Mirage both get temporary event notices to go till four as well. Most recently Emperor's Lounge has had a few temporary event notices to go till four. So I think the crowd isn't just from SNS Kitchen.
Okay, I'd take you know, because we have no evidence that I can't use it, it's, I'm not
being rude, but we could say it's just hearsay, but we will take on board what you say because
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:01:36
you are there amidst of what's going on. Our legal department, you got your hand up?
Laura Heller - Legal - 1:01:42
Yeah I think this is a relevant point chair because the applicant is in effect saying
that there are licenced premises which operate fairly late into the early hours and so could
be contributing to noise. Clearly environmental health don't agree with that. But in order
that you have all of the information in order to balance and assess that, perhaps the licencing
officer may be able to assist with the opening times of premises in that immediate vicinity
as per their licence and I don't know whether she's able to assist with the TENS being carried out by those premises as well.
So that's the first point just because I think it will assist the panel to have that definitive information in order to assess any potential contribution of noise from any other premises.
And also there has been mention made by environmental health of previous applications that the premises
has made, previous TENS and variation applications. Just a reminder, Chair, which I'm sure you
and your colleagues are well aware of, that this application should be determined on its
own merits. Clearly any information around complaints may well be relevant to the panel's
assessment of whether or not the event can go ahead without the prevention of public nuisance licence and objective being undermined. But the the panel should clearly focus on on this application and not necessarily how previous applications have been determined in order to be fair to the applicant. Thank you.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:03:30
Thank you. And that's why I took it further afield because Nurni Area, that's why I picked up those
other venues because it is very active and I wanted to give Stevie Beckford that fair chance.
Of course. It's, you know, in all fairness. So Kerry -Ann, what I'm intrigued about,
because I think we were dealing with Mirage not long ago, could you just double cheque their
closing times for us, Mirage and Emperor's Lounge. And also, because that surprised me
when I heard about tens of Mirage, if they've had any tens in the last six months, please,
while we're just chit chatting, if you don't mind, are you happy with that?
Yes, yes, chair, yeah, I can have a look. I think the Moorage closing time is 3am, a
cell of alcohol is 2 .45, Empress Lounge is 2.
That's where I got it from, was the 2 .45.
Feathers is 245.
But yes, in terms of tens, I can, I can, I'm not sure I could generate a report to cheque the last six months of temporary.
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 1:04:48
We have over 1500 tens to scour through.
So I could I can definitely have a quick look at roughly when they had their had their tens
in the time period that we've got now. If that's OK, but I personally would like you to get through
the whole lot. It's just that is a lot of tens. I've never known it to be so high. That's it.
It has been with the with the with the football World Cup. We have a large increase in temporary
over this last kind of three month period.
So lots of places having temporary notice
which makes the list quite long.
Yeah, I don't want you to do too much on the 10s
but I'm just intrigued.
Thanks for clarifying, Miraz.
I knew it was around the two o 'clock -ish.
I remember now it's 2 .45 and then give them
a drink off period.
But so if you could just look at the 10s,
I'm not interested in football 10s.
That's irrelevant to me.
it's what's generally going on in that area.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:05:52
So if we could just concentrate maybe on Mirage and Emperor's Lounge,
they were two little men, but yeah, a little bit of effort, but don't go too crazy.
Legal?
Laura Heller - Legal - 1:06:06
Yeah, perhaps, Chair, it may assist for you or for the Licencing Officer just to concentrate on the dates
when your attention has been drawn to complaints,
and whether or not those two premises have had late 10s on those dates because that perhaps
may help you and your colleagues to assess whether or not any noise may have travelled
from those premises who were also operating perhaps until 4am or whether or not you know
that that wasn't the case and actually it was just this premises that had had a late
ten in that immediate vicinity on those dates? Yeah. It's a matter for you chair but it but that
may be. That saves a bit yeah I was looking at any other tens in you know in that area do they
number one do we have many tens in that area is the question is what I was but that could be
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:06:59
something we got I take on board what you say I agree. Councillor Fields you had your hand up
Cllr Dean Field - 1:07:06
You're on mute. You're on mute.
Hello there. I was going to ask Saki the same question regarding if we can philtre it down to the 12th and the 18th of July and the other one in June, which will be a lot easier. But Laura beat me to that one.
circle. Good, good, very good. Right so we've established that and we're just going
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:07:33
Charlie Roberts, I hope you don't mind that we're just spreading, spreading your area slightly but
it's just to give a little bit of a feeling of the area you know when it comes down to that
because you know other people cause a bit of a problem. I didn't realise that other restaurant
is still not open yet. I would have thought they would have been eager to get open.
Then we go on about the noise plan that you haven't received, but it's quite clear that Stevie Beckford and the team are trying to do something.
And they said that they are trying to work with the environment team, whether it's loosely or tightly, is, you know, they're trying.
That's the word I'd like to use.
And something I'm going to probe back to, I know the noise limiters put into venues are normally put into venues where they have variation of entertainment and stuff like that, because of the variation of those that come in.
So I'm maybe going off piece a little bit here, but I'm just trying to work something out.
And I mentioned it earlier on, in an amplified system and within that system, you can put a manual limiter in there.
Maybe that's a cheque you could have with them offline to use if we move down that road.
It's quite easy to do.
The DJ can turn it off, but it is pre -set. It's quite easy, but that's just my fault.
And another thing I'm just trying to get my head around is we're talking about the vibe band, these cushions at the bottom of the bass bins.
Well, that's because you've got three different levels of bass. So you've got bass that does rattle the floor, which is high bass.
But then you've got sub -base and the terminology has been used like subwoofer.
They're designed to move air.
So therefore the whole idea is they move the air space inside a building rather than vibrate through the floor.
They do vibrate the walls because the air can't get out.
So maybe there's another discussion.
I'm just picking up on it.
You know, sometimes opening a door sometimes works. But again, that's your department.
That's your I'm just giving some things I know. I'm just quite intrigued when I hear about those those buffers.
I appreciate that, Chairman. And obviously the difficulty we're in here is that controls have got to be suitable for all receptors rather than just one.
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:10:18
And all I would add is that there's, you know, with you can put all sorts of controls in place. Sometimes it comes down to the management of that entertainment and controlling the levels and the volume, which would have just the same effect as put in various other controls in place.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:10:46
Oh yeah, I'm with you 100%. I'm just trying to chitchat a little bit to give Kerry and Ashton some time to look through those files, because I'm quite conscious that we don't want to push her. Laura, over to you. Got your hand up?
the panel.
Laura Heller - Legal - 1:10:56
This hasn't been raised by the
panel.
I hope you will give permission
for me to raise this point.
As part of your powers today,
you have, it's within your gift
to not issue a counter notice so
that the event is permitted to go
ahead.
but to attach one or more of the existing licence conditions.
If you felt that that was appropriate in order to alleviate any concerns
regarding the licencing objective of the prevention of public nuisance being undermined.
And so you may want to explore with Environmental Health
whether or not there are any current conditions on the licence which,
in their view, if added to this permission, would alleviate any of their concerns.
It's a matter for you, Chair, but that may be something helpful for you and your colleagues to consider.
Thank you for the advice there. I am slightly aware of that too.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:11:57
And I think we're trying to find something here is to help.
And yeah, but we've talked to Charlie once.
Carrie Anne, how are you getting on?
I don't want you to spend all day, you work hard enough for us.
No, sir. So, I can only find one,
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 1:12:20
Emperor's Lounge have had eight tens this year, but all at the beginning of the year.
The only recent one they've had is the 28th of June and that was till 4am.
And that was that football?
Councillor Field, help me on this one, because I'm not a football person. He's got his microphone
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:12:42
Cllr Dean Field - 1:12:45
off again. Sorry, I'm only copying you by keeping your
mic off. So if you can just repeat that question again to me.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:12:56
I know that you're into your sport quite a lot. I'm not. One of the places had a 10s
is the 26th of June.
The 28th of June.
Was there any football on...
Laura Heller - Legal - 1:13:11
Sorry, Chair. I think that was a different date than the complaints that have been referred to by the mental health.
So it's a completely different date.
I was just trying to establish what it was linked to as well.
I could help you out on the July dates.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:13:23
On the July dates, because they're in good place.
No, no. I don't want to know.
So, Meeraj haven't had many tents this year, I can only find one on the system, and that was back in April.
So that was before we, yeah, they were in front of us.
The rock would have a temporary event notice on the 12th of July, which was for their summer party.
What time was that, Till, if you don't mind?
Sorry.
12th July.
It was only until 1am.
OK, thank you.
And then obviously the general football extensions were till 1am and till 2am and then obviously
the extension to 5am was proposed for England matches. It has been a complicated period
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 1:14:49
of time with a sort of never -ending change of extensions issued by the government, dependent
on how England were progressing with the football. But yeah, I think generally, I think yes,
premises have used their temporary event notice allocation for this year, for the years. This
year, it seems to be that only sort of Emperor's Lounge has been having their tents until 4am.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:15:22
Okay. Okey -dokey. Right, so that's sort of answered my questions. Kerri -Anne, I'd like to say thank you very much for looking back on that. That's the additional work that you weren't expecting. But Stevie Beckford, you got your hand up?
Applicant - 1:15:34
Yeah, so I just wanted to point out that we have only, the last event that we had, we've only recently started using this app.
And we wasn't aware of that before. So since the last meeting, we heard that the neighbours was encouraged to use the app by Environmental Health.
So we've downloaded that app ourselves. So I think allowing this temporary event notice to go ahead will demonstrate whether or not we can use that app and make it work.
Okay, thank you. Right, so we've done question. I'm going to go back to Charlie and start
winding this up. Charlie Robinson, up to you.
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:16:11
Yeah, apologies. Just for a point of clarification following Stevie's point there, just so that
the committee are clear, I think we're talking about two slightly different apps just for
the benefit of everybody. So the complainants use the council's authorised noise app, which
is purely to capture recordings of the disturbance that they are receiving.
It allows them to put comments,
has a date and timestamp and a GPS location of where the recording was taken.
They can then provide a description as to the noise that they're experiencing in a rating.
The app that I believe Stevie is referring to sounds like a decibel level type map.
So I just wanted to make sure that we were all clear on that.
So not exactly the same app,
but I understand the intentions from the premises
and it's a good intention to use an app such as that
whilst they do have their limitations with accuracy,
it still gives an indicative,
it gives an indication as to the level being experienced.
And then the final point I wanted to make, Chairman,
is if just for the avoidance of doubt,
if you wanted me to address the condition point
at this point, or if not, I'm on and happy to skip it,
but if you'd like me to, more than happy to do so.
Let me just hold on that. Colleagues, do you understand about the app?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:17:27
So there are two, there's a recording one and the decibel one, correct me if I'm wrong Charlie, but the decibel one is like a level metre and you can see it goes up and down, red, green, yellow.
But it also, it's down to where it's placed of how that works as well.
So, you know, when you're in the room, your decibels read differently.
When you're outside, they drop, they, wherever you are, they manoeuvre.
But again, decibel metres normally control the middle range of sound that is going around.
That doesn't normally do sub -bass.
That's a different line.
it's, I just want you to understand that slightly, how they work. Are you happy with that? I just
want to explain, because I think it's important for Stevie Beckford to support her application,
that everything's on the table. Stevie Beckford, you've got your hand up?
Yeah, I just wanted to ask Environmental Health a quick question.
What is, what is the level of decibel that you say is acceptable?
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:18:39
Yeah, good question and unfortunately it's not a straightforward answer because it will
depend on the premise and the surrounding environment. So in law there is no set decibel
level as to what's acceptable. It is a an observation and a judgement made by a competent
qualified individual as to what would be appropriate for that area and at the same time from a
wider environmental perspective, when we're looking at a nuisance
investigation, we wouldn't use decibels at all, because it's
about the impact on the person rather than what level it's
recording at. So that's why I'm always a little bit tentative
about recommending the use of decibel apps and that sort of
thing, because it's what you then do with that and what that
level then means. From from my perspective, and from
environmental perspective, we need to consider the impact on
individual within their home rather than having a limit of x number of decibels.
Equally, as Chairman has kindly pointed out, it depends on the location of that reading being
taken and obviously the nature of the noise as to how that would impact what level would be
acceptable. So, you know, if you're within the premises, it would be obviously a lot higher than
if you were directly outside and then across the street.
So having a set decibel level at a set location
is the closest you would get to using that,
but we would still not exactly recommend it.
It gives an idea, that's the best thing.
It gives an indication of how loud it is.
And I probably wouldn't put any more weight on it than that.
Okay, thank you very much.
Okay, so we've round up what we've done.
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:20:20
Charlie's done his derivation.
We've asked questions, but legal Laura has talked about the conditions.
Would there be anything come to that?
And it is something that we're trying to throw everything on the table here to be as fair as we possibly can.
Charlie, how would you respond to that?
Because Laura said, you know, the premise, I know that the premise has conditions.
You know, what are your thoughts moving forward on that one?
Yeah, more than happy to address that, Chairman. So the conditions, unfortunately in this situation,
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:20:58
the conditions on the premises licence are fairly limited when it comes to prevention
of public nuisance objective. I'm more than happy to quickly run through those to give
you an idea as to what they are. And because of the limitations with the temporary event
notice regime, you are only able to attach conditions that are already on the licence.
So even if everybody was happy that we could put further controls in place, you wouldn't be able to.
It has to be limited to what's already on that licence.
And to give my determination on that, I don't feel that any of these conditions would be sufficient in controlling noise from music up until four o 'clock in the morning.
For reference for the panel, the conditions relevant to this section are on page 31 of the pack, I believe, under the heading of prevention of public nuisance.
Would you like me to quickly run through those, chair, just so that everybody's involved in case they've not got sight of a pack for the premises as well, for example?
I would have assumed everyone would have gone through the pack, you know, so that they know them.
Our point was, was there any sort of way of doing any variation? You're basically saying not for what there is.
So I can't see...
No, no, you've been open and transparent, which is good. And I'm glad Laura brought that to the table.
So colleagues were aware when we go away. So, Laura, would you sort of concur with that?
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:22:30
that you know we've all seen it we've read it so yeah if you're happy chair the the pack has been
Laura Heller - Legal - 1:22:37
publicised in advance of this hearing and all parties should have had a copy so everybody should
be aware of those conditions well we agreed that at the beginning everyone agreed that that had seen
yeah even Councillor Gibbon has put the pack up there so okay uh right thanks very much Charlie
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:22:54
for confirming that for us. So we're now moving into closing submission time where we're going
to go through each of you, so it'd be licenced to the Officer, then the applicant, then responsible
authority. So I'm going to go to licencing officer. Have you got any closing submissions
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 1:23:19
you'd like to make? Just one point to mention, Chair. As we discussed, the temporary event
notices to run from midnight until 4 a .m. it is proposed. Just looking at the current
premises licence and although sale of alcohol runs until midnight on a Saturday, the live
music permission on the licence ends at 11. So it would just be to confirm that if the
ten were to go ahead, that there would have to be a break or the event wouldn't be able
to start until midnight because the current licence only goes up until eleven. There is
just that hours gap. There's a gap, so that would turn music off? If the event was to
start earlier and they did have music on earlier, they would have to turn it off at eleven and
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:24:25
the tent starts at midnight. An hour's break, so no music. I get that. Thank you. OK, OK,
we'll pick that up in a second. Stevie Beckford, have you got any closing submissions? No.
Stevie Beckford would just like to ask though, did you just understand what Kerry and Ashton
Applicant - 1:24:47
said there that yeah our events don't start till 12 anyway so oh right yeah yeah so you have your
restaurant food and that till 12 and then all the or till 11 and then start changing the room around
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:25:04
and then you kick the evening session off at 12. Yeah that's correct. Got it thank you um so
Stevie Beckford hasn't got any closing submissions uh Charlie Robinson any closing submissions from
Nothing from me, thanks Jim, I think we've covered everything.
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:25:15
Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:25:16
Yeah, I think we covered quite a bit extra today as well, which is pleasing.
Okay, that concludes the evidence in this matter. Before I conclude the hearing, is there any party present who does not consider that they have had a fair hearing?
Anybody?
Everyone happy with that was a fair hearing?
Yep. Thank you very much for confirming that. I think we've dug a bit deeper there than
we normally do, which I'm really pleased that we have done, to be honest. Right, so the
subcommittee will now retire together with the legal advisor and democratic services
officer for this matter to be determined. The subcommittee will come to a decision which
will be sent to the applicant and all other parties who submitted relevant representations
within the time limits set out in regulations together with the details of any right to appeal.
Please could parties other than members and legal advisor and the Democratic Services Officer now leave the hearing.
To all those leaving the hearing, thank you very much for attending the hearing and for allowing it to run as smooth as it can.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.