Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee - Thursday 13 August 2026, 10:00am

Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee
Thursday, 13th August 2026 at 10:00am

Speaking:

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Cllr Phil Gomm
Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm

1 Confirmation of Chairman

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2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

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Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Phil Gomm

3 Apologies for absence

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Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm

4 Declarations of interest

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5 Hearing Procedure Rules

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2023 Virtual Procedure Rules

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm

6 The Bricklayers Arms PH, 19 Walton Terrace, Aylesbury, HP21 7QY (T.E.N)

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Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant's Representative
Cllr Phil Gomm
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant's Representative
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Michael West
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicant
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicant
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicant
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Michael West
Applicant
Cllr Michael West
Applicant
Cllr Michael West
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Michael West
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Applicant
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Cllr Phil Gomm
Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicant
Cllr Phil Gomm
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Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00

Let me know when you're ready. Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Our first business on

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:14

the agenda is to confirm the chairman for today's hearing and I can confirm that Councillor

Phil Gomme has been selected to chair this hearing. Thank you very much, uh, Sunina.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:24

Just before we get started, I noticed the bricklayers arms is Mr Patel.

Is the applicant not coming? I thought we had the applicant.

The applicant is Pooja, my partner. She's just currently sick, so she couldn't attend.

I'm attending on behalf of her.

OK, legal, is that OK to do it that way?

Can you just bear with me a moment, I'll cheque the procedure rules.

Yeah, Mr Patel we're only just checking just to be sure that we, you know, we're already

eager to move forward but we wouldn't want to do anything wrong. That's understandable.

Please accept my apologies, Chair. I'm trying to find the correct part of the rules.

Why, you know, why are you looking? I mean, due to the circumstances with sickness that

the applicant can't attend and Mr Patel is, are you a partner, Mr Patel, in that or?

That's correct, yeah, I'm a partner and also part of the management team of Brooklows.

Yeah, yeah, personally I can't see what's wrong if everyone else is in agreement, but

cheque the rules first, I don't want to get told off.

Yeah I think, Chair, I can't place my hands on the part in the rules, but I think it's

fair that the committee take a pragmatic approach. We can't delay the hearing realistically.

I think ideally it would have been nice if the applicant would have let the committee

know that somebody was attending on her behalf, but I think if, based on what Mr Patel has

said and the urgency of the matter before the committee, if you are minded to allow

Mr Patel to represent the applicant on her behalf based on the fact that she's ill, then

I think that that would be okay.

Okay so at least we've covered the ground legally so and you like you say to be fair is everyone happy?

I'm happy, is everyone happy? Yes, very good.

1 Confirmation of Chairman

2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

Yeah that allows us to crack on and go for that. Okay so we'll start moving forward now we got past that.

Everybody if you could turn your microphones off please just in case it gives some feedback every now and again.

So I'd appreciate that. Thank you.

So good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

Our first business of the agenda is to confirm the chairman, which is me.

Thank you very much for that, for that confirmation.

I'm Phil Gom and I look after the Quaint Award under the council.

So and again, welcome to Buckinghamshire Council's Licencing Subcommittee hearing

in relation to an application for a temporary event notice

for the 15th, 16th of August, 2026 for premises located at the Bricklayers Arms Public House

on 19 Walton Terrace, Elsbury, H .B. 217 Q .Y. I say I'm the chairman for this hearing and

I'm going to introduce the rest of the panel members. So firstly, I'll go over to our

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:04:32

first please. Good morning I'm Fess Gibbon and I'm the member for Bearden Kingsbrook and WINK.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:40

And Councillor Mike West. Councillor Mike West I'm Councillor for Pentolers Green and Loud Walk

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:46

Award. Thank you colleagues for joining us today on this licencing hearing. Now we're going to

introduce you to the officers who are in attendance and the first to introduce herself is Miss Kerry -Ann

Ashton. Hi, good morning. Kerri -Ann Ashton. I'm the licencing officer for Buckinghamshire

Council. Yeah, and Kerri -Ann Ashton, she has presented a report providing advice on any

matters relating to licencing policy, guidance and practise. Then as we move on, Ms Laura

Hillier, over to you, Hela, sorry, over to you. Morning, Chair. My name's Laura Hela.

I'm a solicitor with the council's legal department and I'm here to act as legal advisor today.

Yeah so Laura Heller she looks after us on the panel, advisor licencing and local government law.

This is to ensure that when the committee makes a decision it's both within its powers

and legally sound.

Then moving on we've got Ms. Nila Hussain if you'd like to introduce yourself.

Good morning, Neil Hossain in Democratic Services supporting the meeting today.

And again, she helps supporting advisors on all council procedures if we vary off slightly as well.

So we have a good team that backs us up. So thank you very much for that today.

Also in attendance, we've had a change.

Sadly, the applicant can't be here due to a little bit of ill health.

We wish her the best as we move on today anyway.

But instead we've got Mr Patel who will be representing the Pricklayers Arms.

If you'd like to introduce yourself, sir.

Ah, yes. Prabha Patel, you recent owners of the Pricklayers Arms.

Thank you very much.

Then again, moving on, we've gone to our Environment Team.

Charlie Robinson, over to you.

Thank you. Yes, Charlie Robinson, Environment Protection Team Leader.

Thank you. I can confirm that if a relevant person is not present their representations

would have been read and will be considered when reaching a decision. So moving on from

3 Apologies for absence

the agenda onto agenda item three. Do we have any apologies of absence? I can confirm Chairman

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:07:07

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:07:09

no apologies. Okay I think what we do for the record is take it as an apology from the

applicant. I know it's late, we should have received one, but we take that as an apology

for the record. Again, I think that's fair. On to Agenda Item 4, now turning to declarations

4 Declarations of interest

of interest under the Council's Code of Conduct. Do any members have any declarations of interest

they'd like to bring to the attention of the subcommittee? Colleagues?

No, I don't. No interest in the committee.

Okay and I know of the venue and as I do have many of ours brief but I have no declarations

of interest to declare when it comes to that premise. Onto agenda item five we have the

5 Hearing Procedure Rules

licencing subcommittee hearing procedure rules which are appended to the agenda pack for

information. Please could all parties at attendance confirm that they have seen and understood

the procedure to be followed at the hearing?

Yes. Very good, thank you. Everyone's confirmed they are happy with that.

So the purpose of the hearing should be borne in mind at all times to enable those with a right to

appear to advance their point of view and concerns to test the case of their opponents and to assist

the subcommittee to gather evidence and understand the relevant issues.

Please be reminded that parties should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters previously raised and submitted.

The subcommittee may depart from this procedure if it considers it necessary and or equitable to do so.

Do we have any preliminary issues?

I have a preliminary issue, Chair, to raise, please, if I may. Chair, you and your colleagues

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:09:08

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:09:12

and hopefully the parties will be aware that there was some documentary evidence and also

some recordings which were submitted yesterday afternoon, both by Environmental Health and

by the applicant. Now, these were both submitted within 24 hours of the hearing and the notice

of hearing that goes out requests that evidence is submitted before that time point, otherwise

the consent of the parties would be needed during the hearing in order to progress with

the panel considering that evidence. So, before we go any further, Mr Robinson, can I just

cheque that you have received a copy of an email which contains three video recordings, one from

the 8th, one from the 1st of August and two from the 8th of August and these were from the applicant

and also some written submissions. Have you had a copy of those and the licencing officer

if you also had a copy of those. Yeah. And do you consent to those being submitted during

the hearing? Yep, no objections from me, thank you.

Thank you. And Mr Patel, can I just cheque that you have received a copy of some noise

recordings which related to the 1st of August and it was four noise recordings and also

a noise recording relating to the 8th of August from Mr Robinson and it was attached to an email

trail I think it was between yourself and between the applicant and Mr Robinson.

Can I confirm that you've had a copy of those? Yeah I can confirm I had a copy of them.

And are you content for those to be admitted during the hearing?

Yes. Thank you. And the licencing officer, likewise?

Yes. Any objections?

No objections. Thank you. Chair, it is ultimately a matter for the committee, so I would defer to you and your colleagues at this point,

but as you've heard, there aren't any objections from the parties. They've all had a copy of the relevant material, as have you and your colleagues.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:11:31

Okay so for everyone's awareness we've had a little pre -discussion and the colleagues agreed to allow this in.

But I'm going to say I was unhappy to receive some of the information, some of it related to pre -information that you'd put in.

So I was prepared to accept, you know me personally would have accepted that like the recordings was mentioned in your letters,

the letter that you sent out to residents was mentioned in pre stuff but some of the other information was there was not mentioned but we have we have allowed that in because we're here to try and help you know businesses to move forward etc.

but I wasn't happy to see it, let's put it that way.

I think that's, it puts a lot of pressure on everybody last minute.

So, but for today, we're going to move forward and have that at the hearing.

So that's just for the record.

I needed that to go out there.

Okay, so I hope everyone's happy with that.

We now move to consider the officer report being presented this morning in respect

6 The Bricklayers Arms PH, 19 Walton Terrace, Aylesbury, HP21 7QY (T.E.N)

of the temporary event light notice of the bricklayers arms public house 19 Walton Terrace

Elsbury HB 217 QY. Please note we should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters

previously raised. Any lay evidence will only be considered with the consent of all parties.

We have done that. So I'd now like to invite the Licencing Officer Ms Ashton to present the report

outlining the details of the application and representations received. Over to you.

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:13:08

Thank you, Chair. So the 10 temporary event notice has been submitted by Pooja Khubavat

of the Bricklayers Arms 19 Walton Terrace, Elsbury, Buckinghamshire in respect of the

Bricklayers 19 Walton Terrace, Elsbury, Buckinghamshire, HP 21 7QY. So the premises is located

within the town centre of Aylesbury, within a mix of other licenced premises and residential

flats on a busy road. The premises consists of a public house with a beer garden to the

rear of the premises and a car park. A location plan showing the premises is attached to the

report marked as Appendix 1. The premises does currently hold a premises licence which authorises

sale of alcohol and recorded music and a copy of their current premises licence and associated

premises plan is attached as Appendix 2. On the 25th of September 2025 the premises licence

was reviewed by the licencing subcommittee following a review application that was submitted

by Environmental Health under the licencing objective of the prevention of public nuisance.

Following consideration of the application by the subcommittee, the subcommittee resolved

to impose a number of additional conditions on the premises licence and to remove the

premises deregulation permissions for live and recorded music between the hours of 8

a .m. and 11 p .m.

The premises has now been under new management since the 22nd of May, 2026, and the new licence

holder of the premises is Antania Hospitality Limited and Pooja Kibbutz is the designated

premises supervisor. This calendar year three other temporary event notices have been submitted

in respect to the premises. There was a temporary event notice submitted in April which was

submitted by the previous DPS and then a temporary event notice submitted for the 2nd of August

and the 8th of August, which was for music in the pub garden.

No other objections have been received for any other 10s.

And to the licencing Act 2003, there are limits on the number of 10s that can be applied for

each year.

So an individual with a non -personal licence can apply for five 10s, 50 if you hold a personal

licence.

Within that you can serve two late 10s, but 10s if you're a personal licence holder.

But a premises can have a maximum of 15 10s per premises, up to a maximum of 21 days.

Under the Licencing Act 2003, the Police and Environmental Health functions have up to

three working days following receipt of a 10 to give an objection to the event where

they consider that the proposed licence for activities will undermine one of the licencing

objectives which are prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public

nuisance and the protection of children from harm.

And if the police or environmental health were to object to a late ten, the notice would

not be valid and the event would not be able to proceed.

So this temporary event notice submitted proposes that on the 15th to the 16th of August, 2026,

the premises is intended to be used for licenceable activities. A copy of the temporary event

notice is attached to the report marked as Appendix 3. The 10 seeks to have regulated

entertainment between the hours of 1500 and 0100 with outdoor music

ceasing at midnight and continuing indoors.

We received a no objection notice from Thames Valley Police in respect of the temporary event

notice and Environmental Health submitted an objection on the grounds of prevention

public nuisance and a copy of their objection is attached to the report marked as appendix 4.

The objection received from Environmental Health raises the following issues.

It states the 10 relates to a 50th birthday party on the 15th of August involving outdoor

barbecue facilities and amplified DJ music in the external area from 3pm till midnight,

with licence activities continuing till 1am for up to 200 attendees.

Their objection is based on both the premises history of noise complaints and recent evidence

gathered by Environmental Health. Previous complaints about outdoor entertainment led

to the service of a noise abatement notice and a review of the premises licence, which

resulted in the restrictions of outdoor music and the removal of the Live Music Act exemption

for amplified music in the external area. When they considered a previous ten for an

event on the 1st of August, Environmental Health was assured by management that extensive

noise control measures would be implemented, including bass reduction, speaker management,

sound barriers and noise monitoring. On this basis, no objection was submitted for that

events. However, environmental health monitoring undertaken during the event on the 1st of

August found that amplified music was clearly audible inside a neighbouring residential property,

including the bedrooms. Officers reported significant noise intrusion, particularly

from low -frequency bass, resulting in substantial loss of residential amenity and potential

disturbance to residents' sleep. Environmental health concluded that the proposed

mitigation measures were either not implemented effectively or failed to prevent nuisance.

Given the premises history, the proximity of residential properties and the recent monitoring

evidence Environmental Health considers there to be significant risk of public nuisance

if outdoor amplified music is permitted under this 10.

When considering this temporary event notice, regard must be had to the national guidance

issued under section 182 of the Licencing Act.

The legislation provides a clear focus on the promotion of the four statutory licencing

objectives which must be addressed when licencing functions are undertaken.

The licencing objectives are the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention

of public nuisance and the protection of children from harm.

Each objective is of equal importance and there are no other statutory objectives so

the promotion of the four objectives is of paramount consideration at all times.

In relation to temporary event notice, the guidance states the system is permitted to

be intended as a light touch process and as such the carrying on of licenceable activities

does not have to be authorised by the licencing authority. Instead the person wishing to hold

an event at which such activities are proposed to be carried on gives notice to the licencing

of the event. There are two types of temporary event notice under the 2003 Act, a standard

ten and a late ten. And for the purpose of today's hearing, a standard ten is relevant.

A standard ten must be given no later than ten working days prior to the event. If the

licencing authority does receive an objection notice from either the police or environmental

health that is not withdrawn, it must hold a hearing to consider the objection. The licencing

committee may decide to allow the licence black activities to go ahead as stated in

the notice. If the notice is in connexion with licence black activities at a licence

premises, the licencing authority may also impose one or more of the existing licence

conditions on the 10 if it considers that this is appropriate for the promotion of the

licencing objectives. If the authority decides to impose conditions, it must give notice

to the premises user. Alternatively, it can decide that the event would undermine the

licencing objectives and decide that the event should not take place. In this case, the licencing

authority must give a counter notice. In relation to the prevention of public nuisance,

the statutory guidance states,

the 2003 Act enables licencing authorities

and responsible authorities through representations

to consider what constitutes public nuisance

and what is appropriate to prevent it

in terms of conditions attached to premises licences.

It is therefore important that in considering

the promotion of this licencing objective,

licencing authorities and responsible authorities

focus on the effect of licence of activities

at the specific premises on persons living and working

in the area around the premises, which may be disproportionate and unreasonable.

Public nuisance is given statutory meaning in many pieces of legislation. It is, however,

not narrowly defined in the 2003 Act and retains its broad common law meaning. It is important

to remember that the prevention of public nuisance could therefore include low -level

on noise nuisance, perhaps affecting a few people

living locally as well as major disturbance

affecting a whole community.

Conditions relating to noise nuisance

will normally concern steps appropriate to control

the levels of noise emanating from premises.

This might be achieved by simple measures

such as ensuring that doors and windows are kept closed

after a particular time or more sophisticated measures

like the installation of acoustic curtains or rubber speaker mounts.

Any conditions appropriate to promote the prevention of public nuisance

should be tailored to the type, nature and characteristics of the premises.

Where applications have given rise to representations,

any appropriate conditions should normally focus on the most sensitive periods.

For example, music noise from premises usually occurs from mid -evening

until late evening or early morning,

when residents in adjacent properties

may be attempting to go to sleep or sleeping.

Regard must also be had to the council's

adopted licencing policy, published March 2022,

when determining whether the event can proceed,

of particular relevance of the following sections.

The policy states that the licencing is concerned

with the promotion of the licencing objectives.

the prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public nuisance,

and the protection of children from harm. The Council, in its role as the licencing authority,

must ensure that when it carries out licencing functions, that it does so with promoting these

licencing objectives. The licencing policy seeks to balance the interests of businesses and

residents to make sure that Buckinghamshire Council continues to offer a wide choice of high quality

and well -managed entertainment venues within an environment that is safe and attractive

to residents, businesses and visitors. In relation to the prevention of public nuisance,

the policy states, public nuisance relates to the negative effects of nuisance including

noise, light, odour, dust and litter affecting or likely to affect at least a few separate

households locally. The licencing authority is keen to protect the amenity of residents

and businesses in the vicinity of licenced premises.

In considering all applications, the licencing authority will consider whether the measures

proposed to deal with the potential for public nuisance, having regard to all circumstances

of the application, are adequate. Much weight will be placed on the recommendations made

by environmental health officers in terms of preventing public nuisance.

The policy goes on to state particular measures can include noise escape, the steps taken

for customer arrivals, the provision for smokers, customer departures and the use of outdoor

areas. So the panel is obliged to determine this matter with a view to promoting the licencing

objectives which are prevention of crime and disorder, public safety, prevention of public

nuisance and protection of children from harm. In making its decision the panel is also obliged

to have regard to the national guidance and the Council's statement of licencing policy.

Should the panel depart from either, it must specify its reasons for doing so.

The panel must also take into consideration all of the representations made, any evidence

submitted both written and orally at the hearing.

In promoting the licencing objectives, the panel can take any of the following decisions

in relation to the matter.

It can permit the event to proceed subject to any one or more of the conditions which

apply to the current premises licence and which are appropriate to promote the licencing

objectives. Or they can issue a counter notice which acts as a refusal for the event to proceed

if it considers it appropriate for the promotion of the licencing objectives to do so.

The panel should consider its responsibilities under the Human Rights Act when considering

the fair balance between the interests of the applicant and the rights of local residents.

Any decisions taken must be appropriate and proportionate to the objectives being pursued.

In particular, the following should be taken into consideration.

Article 6, the right to a fair hearing. Article 8, respectable private and family life. And

Article 1, first protocol, peaceful enjoyment of possessions which can include possession

of a licence. And that concludes my report, Chair, and I'm happy to answer any questions.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:27:58

Very kind. Thank you very much, Gary and Ashton. As I always say, what a great, thorough report

you gave us there which enables us to take on board everything. So I'm going to go down

the list. Mr Patel have you got any questions you'd like to ask the licencing officer?

Applicant's Representative - 0:28:13

Yes Chairman that would be great. I have a few questions regarding this particular term.

Would the Environment Health consider that reducing the event to approximately 70 guests

change the risk profile of this event?

So that question the board, Kerri -Ann is that Charlie hasn't done his?

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:28:37

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:28:40

Yes I think that question would be better placed to Mr Robinson if that's okay.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:28:47

Yeah we won't do that now so Mr Patel we'll wait till Environment have done their deliberation

and then you can bring that into his. Have you got any specific questions you'd like to ask

Applicant's Representative - 0:29:02

the licencing officer? No, just my apologies, it's my first time conducting this sort of

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:29:08

thing so I'm unaware of. Yeah, I apologise to you, maybe I should have explained a little

bit better so yeah, but we all get there eventually but good. Okay, right so Charlie Robinson

have you got any questions you'd like to put to the licencing officer? No, thank you, Chairman.

Thank you. Now I'm going to move down to members. Mike West, Councillor, have you got any questions

you'd like to put to licencing?

No Chair.

Cllr Michael West - 0:29:33

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:29:35

Okay, I've done this strategically because I know that Councillor Gibbon has a question

for the Licencing Office. You did earlier on.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:29:47

Yes, I do. Do you happen to know if a noise management plan has been submitted and approved

for these premises?

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:30:04

I am aware that one has been recommended

when Mr. Patel took over the premises,

myself and one of Charlie's colleagues,

Stuart met with Mr. Patel and his wife at the premises

to go through the conditions on the premises licence

and a noise management plan was discussed at that point.

And I believe that one has been sent, excuse me,

to Environmental Health for their consideration,

but I don't know how far along the chain that has got.

I can cheque on my records to see if I've got a copy

of the noise management plan.

But in relation to this 10,

a recent noise management plan hasn't been sent in with regards to these recent 10 submissions.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:31:01

Thank you. So just to pick up on that, we'll ask Charlie the same question there, Councillor

Gibbon, when we come up to him. So just picking up on that, Councillor Gibbon, any more questions

for licencing? No, that's all, thank you. Okay, right, and just picking up on what you

just said about a noise management plan had been submitted for these tents. Am I missing

something? I can see nothing in our documents. No, sorry. Yes, I was saying I don't think

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:31:33

one has been submitted recently with these temporary event notices as kind of additional

evidence. I know it was discussed when we met with them in terms of their plans for

managing the premises that a noise management plan would be required.

But that was before they obviously put in for the temporary event notices.

That was okay thank you yeah Charlie Robinson we'll bring that to you when we come to you.

Okay I'm just trying to keep it in a little bit of order and for licencing we mentioned the

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:12

you mentioned the abatement notice that was restricted on these premises. Okay is that

abatement notice still live?

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:32:24

Again Mr Robinson will be able to confirm my understanding is that

because the abatement notice was served on the individuals of the previous owners

of the premises then that noise abatement notice may not still be in place but Mr Robinson will

able to get that for you. Yeah we're cross question Mr Robinson when we get to to that point.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:50

Thank you very much and one last question please Kerry -Ann Ashton is on the licencing time it was

something I picked up earlier on and a few of us have picked up the variation of different times

with live music outside inside you know we got background music until 1 .30 outside and in live

is all that the times vary but the question I'm going to ask is that the premises are allowed to have background music and we know that there's a condition in annex three of it that

I've lost it.

It has to be just background music. They're allowed to play music, recorded music, but it has to be background music.

So with that condition there, can I ask, since the new owners have taken over on 22nd May,

have there been any complaints of background music from then till now?

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:33:58

I can only answer from a licencing point of view. I haven't obviously got access to the information that Charlie has on environmental health,

but licencing haven't received any complaints

regarding the music at the premises.

Just to confirm, when the review took place,

obviously premises have the deregulation permission

so that they can have live and recorded music

between the hours of 8 a .m. and 11 p .m.

So the committee resolved to remove that permission,

which makes them a licenceable activity

which means that the committee can obviously condition

those activities which ordinarily they wouldn't be able to condition

because they wouldn't be considered a licenceable activity.

Which is why the premises users for the bricklayers arms

have to apply for a temporary event notice

when they want to have amplified music in the garden

because they don't have that as a licenceable activity currently.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:35:04

Thank you for explaining that. I would expect those looking in and we do have quite a few people that look into these meetings would be quite interested how that works.

So we're bringing that back to Charlie Robinson when we come there.

OK, so we've gone around question time. Everybody's asked their questions. Thank you very much.

And again, Kerri -Ann, thank you very much for that as well with your deliberation.

Okay, so now we move on, moving down the agenda.

I would now like to invite the applicant,

which is Mr. Patel, to address the hearing, sir.

Good morning, Chair and members.

Applicant - 0:35:46

Thank you for the hearing of the application today.

We fully understand concerns raised

by environmental health,

and we're not seeking to dismiss those concerns

or the experience of local residents.

We are relatively new operators of the brick layer's arms and generally want to build a constructive working relationship with the Council,

Environmental Health and the neighbouring residents.

Since the concerns raised following the event on the 1st of August, we have reviewed our events management, noise monitoring procedures and sound setup.

We have already implemented further control measures including reviewing the speaker positions,

which meant moving the DJ closer to the main building, which helped reduce the bass levels and monitoring from different locations,

which we implemented on the event of the 8th of August.

The event we are seeking the subcommittee to consider is not a large outdoor music event.

It's a private birthday party celebration for approximately 50 guests now,

which have been confirmed yesterday, centred around a barbecue and dining.

Music is secondary and we are willing to restrict outdoor DJ background,

DJ music to background or low levels.

With all entertainment moving indoors from potentially 10 p .m.

if that's reasonable, depending on what the subcommittee considers appropriate.

We are here to demonstrate that we have listened, learned and adapted and are willing to accept

further reasonable controls to promote the licencing objective of preventing public nuisance.

That's my address. Mr Chairman, thank you.

Very kind. Thank you very much, Mr Patel.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:37:39

Legalists, raise their hand. Laura Heller, over to you.

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:37:49

MS. PIPER Thank you, Chair. Yeah, just a couple of points to raise off the back of what Mr.

Patel has said. Because this is a 10 application, the Licencing Act puts in various restrictions

on what the committee can do. And so, although conditions may be offered or suggested perhaps,

or the application amended by the applicant, that's not going to be possible. So, any modification

of their application would have had to have taken place with the consent of the parties

and before the hearing has commenced. And in effect, what that would do is mean that

the hearing would then have fallen away. And so, we are past that point of modification

of their application. In relation to conditions, your hands are tied and so even though additional

conditions may be suggested as appropriate or that the applicant is willing to comply

with additional conditions, if you and your colleagues were minded to grant the 10, you

only have an option to impose conditions which already apply on their current premises licence

and which are appropriate and proportionate for the promotion of the licencing objectives.

So there can't be any other conditions that are attached that aren't already on their licence.

So I'm not sure if Mr Patel is aware of that, but there are restrictions on what the committee is able to do today.

Are you happy with that Mr Patel, that explanation?

Yeah, apologies Laura. Still a learning curve.

No, of course.

Well noted.

You're not to know, you're not to know Mr Patel and it's a reasonable suggestion to the committee

and for lots of other types of applications those types of suggestions would be welcomed and lots

of changes do happen during hearings but these hearings are quite separate and there are

there are a number of restrictions on what the committee can do. Thank you, thank you Chad.

Thank you Laura. I would like to say Mr Fenn, just what you said you would accept conditions but what

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:40:03

and our hands are tied but there's you know it is these these meetings are quite you know

they're not casual but we're quite you know sort of set back your your comments could be seen as

a trust where you know we it's putting trust in you but you know you could put a condition out there

we can't impose that but you're showing willing.

So that helps in an open and transparent discussion.

Simple as that.

So you're not doing nothing wrong, but that's how we go.

Okay, does the licencing officer have any questions

for Mr. Patel?

No chair, no questions, thank you.

Charlie Robinson, questions for Mr. Patel?

Sir, I'm just thinking whether it's appropriate to ask a question now or I think I'll probably

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:40:53

be asked a question that will create discussion a bit further down the line. Maybe I'll flag

it now and then if we feel it's appropriate for the discussion to happen a bit further

down the line then that may well be best. And it's just around the potential for discussions

of imposing conditions if the committee were to see fit in terms of the conditions that

already on the premises licence. Around the offer from Mr Patel around reducing volume

to background level of the music outside. Now obviously as you've already identified

there is a condition on the premises licence that matches that. I'd have to look at the

exact wording. But it was more a question to Mr Patel and a point of discussion around

what he believes would be acceptable for background level at that type of event. And his understanding

of what background level music is. I'm happy for Chairman if you feel that that's an appropriate

question now or if you'd like that to be discussed further down the line.

I would go further down the line once you've done your deliberation and then because that

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:42:02

gives us the opportunity to come back to you. So I think that that would be a tennis game

that one when when we do that question that's very good. I hope everyone agrees. Colleagues

you agree? That's a good way for one. OK, so Charlie Robinson, have you got any other

questions you'd like to ask Mr Patel? No, thank you. So now I move down to my colleague

members. We go down to you. This time I'm going to let ladies go first. Councillor Gibbons.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:42:37

Thank you, Chairman. I have a few questions. You mentioned in the letter we received recently

about a sound barrier blanket being installed. Could you tell me what date that was installed?

Applicant - 0:42:50

That was installed on the 25th of May when we took over

for the premises. The sound installed blanket was already provided by the previous tenants.

Okay thank you that's brilliant. Do you have anti -vibration pads for your speakers?

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:43:10

Is that something you use?

Applicant - 0:43:15

So speakers that we use for events as such are equipment bought by the DJ or the amplified

person who tends to hire their own DJs or bands. For our internal speakers they're about

very, I think they're padded but I don't know about the vibration I would have to cheque

the specification of those particular speakers but that's a point to note.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:43:55

Okay, thank you. And my last question is, it looks to me from the recordings and here

from Environmental Health that whatever you've done up to date hasn't really reduced the

noise so that it doesn't disturb people living nearby. So what will you be doing differently

moving forward to make sure that you don't disturb residents?

Applicant - 0:44:19

I think the concerns of the recordings were mainly based on timing and the nature of the

genre of music played. The first of August was a party which was in their 20s which have a

different type of music that they wanted to play. The second event which I've also submitted was a

where we had control and moved the speakers positions around from the recordings from

myself and potentially the submitted recordings would show that the volume has decreased considerably

from my perspective anyways.

For this particular event it's again a barbecue dining it's not a event where it's purely

for Amplified music, It's a BBQ, therefore the event will most likely have volumes where

people can actually have a conversation and eat rather than just listen to loud music

in this particular event.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:45:27

I'm a little bit concerned about your most likely, I'd rather it was a little bit more

definite response.

Sorry, yeah, I mean, from my perspective, It's a BBQ, they're going to be eating from

Applicant - 0:45:37

probably what they're planning from 4 p .m. to 6 p .m. in which there will be no

sort of noise at that level which will disturb the neighbours and residents and

after which where it's a family gathering so I'm pretty sure they're not

going to be playing sort of drum and bass garage or techno type of music for

people in their 50s or 60s.

So I may have pairs of people. People may have the choice, but I have spoken to the person who's hosting and he's not a big fan of those genres.

He's more of a 70s, 80s R &B type of person.

I was teasing you, sorry. Yeah, thank you very much.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:25

Thank you very much, Councillor Gibbon, for those three questions.

Councillor Mike West.

Cllr Michael West - 0:46:36

Yes, I'd like to ask apart from repositioning the speakers, what are the steps have you taken to reduce noise levels?

Applicant - 0:46:46

So, one of the steps we learnt quickly was to put a decibel metre app next to a certain

location which sent a notification to my phone to mention that it's peaked at a certain level.

And when it did so, we took the initiative to go to the DJ and reduce the noise down

until it met our decibel that we thought it would be best. Other than this, we've recorded

at different points of the premises in the garden and also walked around the residential

area to ensure that at a human's ear level sound is not heard on the streets.

Cllr Michael West - 0:47:32

Following on from that then, have you discussed with Environmental Health what they would

like to see implemented to reduce noise levels in what is a semi residential area?

We had a brief discussion myself and Charlie I think last week and again because we're

Applicant - 0:47:51

pretty new operators we've asked sort of what the council would suggest we can do. I know

that the council can't recommend anything they can just potentially advise so we've

We've taken that on board and maybe potentially speaking with noise regulator management companies

who might be able to help put in place a better sound restricted, I would say, equipment.

I've suggested to Charlie as well to maybe potentially put a noise metre on the neighbouring

premises if they can sense so that we can exactly see the level of noise that's reaching

their front or back garden door so that if we know that we have a live metre saying okay to

reach their door by this decibel we need to definitely reduce our sound levels.

Cllr Michael West - 0:48:50

That's good. Thirdly though, just like to ask you if you're promoting this as mainly a barbecue,

a birthday gathering, it's not a music event.

What do you see as the main problems with conducting this event under the terms of your

premises licence?

The problem I see is I wanted to obviously cover all legal aspects as the new operators

Applicant - 0:49:25

we don't want to breach any policies or procedures because there will be a DJ positioned in the

the garden. We obviously made sure that we covered our backs and applied for a tent.

Thank you. Thank you very much, Councillor West. Very

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:49:43

good and Councillor Gibbon from you too. Now over to me a little bit. I will probe you

slightly here, Mr. Pottel, because it's one of my favourite topics. So, you know, at the

of the day you're a business trying to create well -being for your business and for those that

want to come and have events there. The premises is sort of renowned to have ups and downs with

the community etc. At the end of the day a party's a party and I'm not gonna,

I'm pleased that you have them there. You try. I think at the end of the day with the scenario

here and I think Mr Robinson might help on this, is finding some common ground in that area

really rather than because correct me if I'm wrong but the garden of the brick layers arms

has got brick walls and then I think to the back is a high brick wall. I don't think I just know

the area quite well. So if you got that like the garden alone and I will ask you Mr Robinson

this this is where I think you're on a hard battle here that's why you've got a fine

karmagraina. I just want you to confirm that acts like a speaker on its own so you know

because it's it's it's a box shape I'm going to bring this up with with with Mr Robinson

But could you just confirm that that is what the garden is like? It's like a boxed area?

Is that me or Mr Patel?

No, no, Mr Patel.

It is like a boxed area, yes it is.

Thank you. I'm just trying to help here a little bit because you know it's so another question is

is like with the DJs everyone goes on about the noise the noise and not you know about

noise is noise you know to one person it's this to one person it's another

but and then we've gone about these noise limiters and again I said this about the DJ alone could

have a noise limiter built in on their system. So I'm just

giving saying in future you should just cheque with those.

But you also and again, this could be something to take up

with Mr. Robinson is the main power that the DJ or band gets.

You can also put a noise limiter quite cheap but in there, and it

controls it and if it's a four light, three light system, it

goes amber, da da da da da, and it just warns them if, and it's quite a reasonable decibel

it's set up, but it warns them if they're going too high it drops the power and no DJ

or band wants their power to drop. So I'm just saying another conversation that you

could could have. But the question I want to ask, like you say you move the speakers

from A to B to C to D, would it not be feasible or a bit easier to have the DJ in your function

Applicant - 0:52:58

room and not in the garden? I think if you've been to the premises, the garden is probably

the main attraction of the premises. The function room is only suitable for a maximum of 20

people if they were sitting down. Whereas the garden is quite an open area and has different

where you could sit down and sort of enjoy the atmosphere or the entertainment.

Because it's quite large, it's about one thousand square foot.

If you were to sit in the other corner of where the entertainment is,

you would be able to sit down and sort of not be disturbed by the noise if two people wanted to have a conversation.

OK, thank you.

That was just a thought of mine.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:53:45

People are there to go to enjoy themselves.

So, over to legal, have I…?

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:53:58

No, no, chair. It's just a reminder because it feels like the application as it is in its current form,

of which we know can't be modified, it feels like it's almost starting to try to be modified during discussion.

So it's just a reminder that the 10 is in effect asking for that regulated entertainment to be permitted until 1am in the morning and that includes outside areas until 12 o 'clock.

And so you may have assurances from Mr Patel saying we only intend to play background music

at that level. Well that would be permitted by his usual, by the usual premises licence. And so

I would then question number one, why is the ten even necessary? But also I think Mr Robinson

mentioned about existing conditions on the licence, which we know there is, and we know

there's a condition which in effect, this applies the Deregulation Act in relation to outside music.

But if, and I think Mr Robinson is maybe going to elaborate on this and perhaps suggest that

that's something that committee could look at doing. But that is not, in my advice, that

wouldn't be compatible with the application because the whole, you know, the crux of their

application is that they want to use that outside area when ordinarily they wouldn't be allowed.

And so if you attach that particular condition that's on the premises licence, that's not

compatible with what the 10 is asking is asking to do. Does that make sense? Because then you're

just left with the inside areas. And I think that leaves a small window of maybe half an hour, I'd

to look at their current licence. But yeah, it's I think it's just really a reminder to all parties.

I appreciate Mr Patel might be trying to move the goalpost in order to assist and try to be

helpful and the same with Mr Robinson. But we are really, we have to consider the 10 as is.

and, you know, either grant the application, grant the ten as is, issue a counter notice so the event can't go ahead,

or attach one or more of the current conditions on the licence, allowing the event to go forward,

but they can't be incompatible with the carrying out of that activity under the ten. Does that make sense?

Sorry, that was a long winded explanation.

No, that's why we like you, to give us these, you know, the explanation to.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:56:39

So with me, I'm looking at, I know we're looking at the tens, but I think you know where I've been going.

I'm probing a little bit, looking at the bigger picture, which I can talk about, we not talk about today,

but something that I feel that needs to be addressed in all.

So I'm taking advantage a little bit, so I apologise for that.

But thank you very much.

I think Charlie Robertson knows where I'm going, so we're all there to help at the end of the day.

Councillor West, you've got your hand up.

Yes, yes, Chair.

Cllr Michael West - 0:57:14

I think you've just about said what I wanted to say.

Really, Laura, what you're saying is we're stuck with two alternatives today.

One is to either accept the 10s as is or accept the turn or the event will be held under the terms of the premises

licence and any other discussion really is for events in the future and discussions between

environmental health and the applicant as to how they produce an acceptable event for

to bring to the next TENS application. Is that correct?

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:57:55

Yeah, so I think it's absolutely right and proper for the panel to be discussing how

the premises manage noise because of course that is relevant to the issue under discussion

and whether or not you and your colleagues are going to allow this event to go forward.

I think my concern was that the, what is being applied for can start to kind of change and

you know we're not, we're not going to be, it's just going to be conversational outside

or, you know, a consideration given to imposing that restriction that's on the licence on

the 10 in relation to outside areas, but that just wouldn't be compatible with what the

10 is asking for. And as I said, because the hearing's already commenced and there hasn't

been consent to all the parties, we can't modify the 10. It's quite different to other

applications. So yeah, in effect, your options are after you've heard, and clearly you're

going to decide that now, but to grant the 10 as is, to grant the 10 that you can attach one or more

conditions of the current licence, as long as you feel that they're appropriate to promote the

licencing objective, and they also must not be incompatible with the activity being carried out

under the 10. So to add a condition restricting outdoor music when the 10's asking to play,

Yeah, to play music that's loud in the background music, it just wouldn't be compatible. So my advice would be that the committee shouldn't shouldn't do that, because that wouldn't be lawful under the Act.

Or you can issue a counter notice, which is in effect a refusal, if you feel that that's necessary for the promotion of the licence and objectives. So those are your options.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:59:44

Yeah, yeah, so yeah and it's me that's learned that a different, well I didn't learn a different guy, I've just taken the opportunity to see about the main licence of the place.

I've used that as a little bit of an exercise to work on afterwards, but yeah we're here on this one.

Okay, right, so as we continue, thank you very much Laura for that update again.

Over to Charlie Robinson to deliberate and remember we've got a question in there that

is going to ping -pong between the two of you, so remind me as we get there. Over to you.

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:00:22

Thanks Chairman, obviously I'm aware you've all had the pack which includes my representation,

so I'll try and keep my submission brief and I apologise if I duplicate any bits that have

but it's just important to make sure we've got everything in mind. You'll have to excuse me as

well, I don't know if it's hay fever or what that's playing up with me today but I'll be

drinking quite a lot as I go through. So obviously as you've heard the temporary event notice seeks

for regular entertainment from 1500 hours on the Saturday until 0100 hours on the Sunday morning

for a birthday barbecue event with a DJ.

Members are obviously now already aware about Environmental Health's historic involvement with the premises.

Many of the details which have been already outlined in submissions and in your packs already,

most notably obviously being the statutory nuisance abatement notice,

which obviously there was a question about earlier and I could come on to that in a moment,

which was issued purely as a result of noise from music in the garden area of the premises

and the subsequent review of the premises licence which resulted in the Live Music Act and the deregulation benefits being withdrawn.

It's obviously important to note that this took place under the previous premises management

and the abatement notice was issued on the previous premises management.

However, the history and these issues still hold significant weight when we're looking

at this temporary event notice that's in front of you today.

So the case officer, not myself, Stuart Goodbun, he's within my team and a licencing officer,

I believe it was Kerry -Ann, proactively engaged with the new premises licence management at

an early stage when they took over to make sure that they were fully aware of the previous

issues and the restrictions in place in respect of music within the garden.

Following this, some temporary event notices were submitted and Environmental Health's

concerns regarding outdoor amplified music were clearly communicated again to the premises

management during a meeting that took place at the same time as the consultation, no sorry

it wasn't meeting, it was an email exchange during the consultation period of the previous

temporary event notice in respect of the 1st of August.

So Environmental Health, myself, I've raised some concerns

with the premises to say, obviously we've got the history,

we're concerned about what's being proposed

as part of the 1st of August event.

And at that time, the premises management provided

some assurances that measures would be put in place.

And obviously the details of those emails

were attached to my original submission.

And those included things like reducing the base,

speaker positioning, the dampening barriers, which again I may well elaborate on shortly,

and general management control of music levels and monitoring throughout the event.

So in reliance upon those assurances, we exercised discretion to not submit a representation

to the 10th of August, but we confirmed that we would likely be carrying out monitoring.

and during that event we did carry out monitoring. I attended a neighbours premises, a neighbours

property myself on two occasions throughout that event. Once earlier on in the evening,

I believe around nine o 'clockish and then I returned again just after eleven o 'clock

and obviously I took those recordings which you have kindly accepted and I'm sure you've

had a chance to have a listen to. And I think those are very good demonstration of the level

of impact on the residents within their homes as a result of the music. So the music was

clearly audible and intrusive in the living areas downstairs on the ground floor of the

property with one of the patio doors open and I'm sure you can appreciate in the weather

that we've had recently it's reasonable to expect that people will have windows and doors

open and likewise up on the top floor of the residential property where the bedroom was

There isn't actually any windows openable on the elevation that faces towards the premises.

So it was there was no open window.

However, the music was still at a level that would, in my opinion, interfere with the ability to sleep.

And that was both volume of music, bass levels and people noise as well that was associated with that event.

So, as I say, we felt that the music as a result of that event substantially sort of

interfered with the residents ability to rest and enjoy their property. And our main concern

is that essentially the activities and the hours in front of you, the terminal hour of

the event on the 1st of August are essentially the same as what's being applied in terms

hours of availability and activities to you today and that's where our concerns come in.

So subsequent to that event, we then had a conversation myself and Mr Patel about the issues that were raised

and then a further event took place on Saturday the 8th of August. We didn't raise an objection to that one because it was submitted.

The 10 was submitted prior to the 1st, so we hadn't had our opportunity to observe during that time.

So we decided to allow the 8th to go at the same time as the application for the 1st.

And whilst there wasn't, unfortunately, there wasn't an officer available to carry out monitoring during the event of the 8th,

we did receive a further complaint from a resident and the noise app recording, which you have also received as part of my additional submission.

So when considering the review of the premises licence, the subcommittee at the time obviously

determined that amplified music in the garden area was not appropriate and that's why the

restrictions and the conditions were imposed in that way. And we feel that the last two

events covered by the temporary event notices, permitting the amplified music in those external

areas has essentially solidified our concerns and that the garden area is not suitable for

that level of amplified music and those activities.

Residents and environmental health are accepting

that there will be an expected level of noise from a pub

when you're in that close proximity to it.

And residents are very realistic about what they should

expect from a beer garden, especially during a summer

and especially the summer we've had.

However, the repeated evidence of intrusion

of music activities in that garden is not considered

reasonable or acceptable at this time. I would say that we are as always more than happy

to proactively engage with Mr Patel and his partner and look at solutions moving forward.

And we've had some positive engagement with Mr Patel up until now, so that's good. However,

as it stands at the moment, we don't feel that there is a position that could be reached

in terms of your consideration for today, in respect of allowing this temporary event

notice to go ahead. So I'll pause there and open up for any questions. Thank you, Chairman.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:07:36

OK, so I'll go for a question. Mr Mattel, you have to answer the second, OK? Because

I have a process I have to go through. You won't be long. But firstly, it will be down

to our licencing officer to ask any questions to Charlie Robinson, please.

No questions, Chair. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Now we go to Mr Patel. It's your turn, sir, to ask Mr Robson what you would like.

Applicant - 1:08:06

Mr Patel, your microphone is off.

Apologies. I just wanted to ask a question. Were there any official complaints registered on the particular noise of the events?

or were they just essentially their noise recordings that have been submitted?

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:08:34

And so obviously we had the event of the first where I attended and I received the verbal

complaints and I've asked for further details in writing. For the event on the 8th, the

way that the council invites, not invites complaints, but accepts complaints is in a

of forms. It could be email, it could be on an online submission form or it could be a submission

through our noise app. So the recording that was submitted through the noise app, we essentially

accept that as the initiation of a complaint. The noise app allows the residents to put some

details, some written details on there, provide things like a scale of one to ten, how they feel,

the level of it and that sort of thing. So there's enough information provided through the noise app

for us to accept that as a glass -air complaint. So yeah, that's what we're going to see.

Just a quick counter question on that. So were the residents of the area advised by

Applicant - 1:09:32

the council to upload any noise because obviously the, because on the 1st of August there was

conducted a presence of yours to actually come out and record the noise. Did they feel

or get advised to submit a noise recording for the second event?

So we don't actively encourage complaints.

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:09:53

Obviously the residents have been involved in noise complaints in the past,

so they're fully aware of how they can do that.

So that's when they proactively took that approach to submit recordings.

We didn't specifically ask people to submit recordings for our benefit during that event.

Thank you.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:10:14

Any more questions?

Applicant - 1:10:23

Around the question of, where was I?

Just obviously on the recordings that you've submitted, is there any sort of measures that

you take to understand that the recording or sound level is considered high as I'm not

a tech expert, but from my understanding of any microphones, they tend to enhance the

volume that's recording.

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:10:59

Yeah, yeah, happy to answer that. So there is settings on the phone that you can switch

on any enhancement enhancements. So they are always switched off. What I would say is that

It's a good point, it's very important to note that this was a recording taken on an iPhone, on a microphone.

So they are more, they are put forward as a, to give you an idea of an indication of how it was when I experienced it within the home.

It is not taken on calibrated equipment, it does not record decibel levels.

So, it is not a sort of an official recording on a calibrated device. However, it is there

to give an indication and a reflection of my observations. And, you know, as a professional

officer, I'm happy to say that those recordings reflected what I experienced when I was in

that home. So, it's a subjective recording rather than an objective one.

Applicant - 1:12:00

Thank you. I understand obviously the event you visited was the first of August, which was placed where the DJ was placed at the end of the residence garden and the music type was a bit different to the eighth.

So they're recording, they've submitted for the 8th,

the DJ was actually placed at the entrance of the back door

of the Pub's garden, which neighbouring onto the residence.

Just to obviously highlight the committee,

when we took over on the 15th of May,

a week or two later, we introduced ourselves

to the neighbouring parties with a letter mentioning myself

and Poody's name and both numbers.

Also, we received positive feedback from, I would say, 95 % of the neighbours where they've

come and approached and met us and mentioned we have no objections of any music or any

live events being taken place at your premises.

Obviously, we don't want to abuse that and obviously have events going on every single

weekend or for three days onwards.

We simply just ask for an event every biweekly.

As a matter of fact, this particular August event was private party, but we have planned

obviously events to understand the public's requirements of entertainment in Ellsbury.

So on that note, because we advise the residents to raise any concerns and they did not actually

raise any concerns with us. I don't know how to obviously approach this.

Yeah we're drifting off a little bit there but thanks for that confirmation there. I was going

to ask like you poached two of my questions actually but that's a really valid point of

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:13:44

what you've done there. So anybody else you'd like Mr Patel to ask Charlie Robinson?

I think you've covered him quite well. But there was a question, Charlie, that you were

going to ping -pong. Do you want to bring that into it now?

I'm more than happy to have that discussion and for the clarity and the avoidance of doubt

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:14:13

really there was a question around the background level I think is the one that you're referring

to Chairman and what I would say is that I wasn't raising it from a perspective of suggesting

that the condition would be suitable, it was more raising it to understand the applicant's

understanding of what background level is and therefore the difference between what

they're normally permitted under their premises licence and what they are proposing now. So,

I mean, it may well help if I set out what we would generally view as background and

I think we're all very clear of what background music is. I think we've been briefed so many times and by the sound Mr Patel was quite clear.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:14:58

Unless colleagues want to expand on that. But I think we've covered that by a few times. So we're happy.

It's fine.

And I believe my colleagues are happy that Mr Patel understands that too. So, OK.

Any more questions? So now it's colleagues turn with Charlie Robertson. Would you allow me to go first please?

Yeah they're both sort of agreeing. Okay so I've only got a few and I just want to dig into this.

is so with the abatement notice that's still in place,

because that was in place to the people before.

And that, you know, again,

it's nothing to do with this application, not really,

but it is and isn't,

because the abatement notice

wouldn't have allowed this event to go ahead

because that's what stops it.

So there's a bit of controversy there.

So if we could get that sorted out, please,

because that's how I see it.

You know, there's an abatement notice on the property

and you're issue intents.

and I'd find that quite something. So that could kick that back just by that condition.

Laura, I think I'm right on that one.

Would you like me to explain the situation?

Laura Heller - Legal - 1:16:14

Yeah, I think maybe some clarification from Mr Robinson on whether the abatement notice even

relates to Mr Patel. Exactly.

And then it's, yeah. The relevance is a matter of fact.

Yeah, but it would contradict apply for a 10s, but as an abatement notice sort of property.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:16:28

So Charlie Robinson, if you could please explain a little bit.

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:16:32

Yeah, more than happy to. So an abatement, the law with regards to abatement notices,

that's the Environment Protection Act 1990. So an abatement notice is served on an individual

or company. So the company is classed as an individual in the eyes of that law. So it's not,

whilst it's relating to a premises, the notice is served on the person responsible for the

nuisance. So the notice was served on the previous operators of the premises in respect

of the bricklayers. Now that means that whilst the notice still exists, essentially, it has

no teeth anymore, we wouldn't be able to enforce anything because unless the previous owners

returned for example. So it served on them, the previous owners, in respect of the premises.

So it is not imposed on Mr Patel and therefore essentially anything that Mr Patel carries

out at the premises is, the payment notice is null and void in their eyes.

I wanted to cover that because, you know, any of the members of the public looking in

would go, well hold on a minute, you've got this, so why isn't, I think that's, so that

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:17:39

you've explained that still allows us to deal with as tense as we should do, but anyone

else could think why are they doing it. That needs dealing with please if you could on the outside.

So another thing I just want to pick up on you mentioned because I didn't see no complaints in

the file and you mentioned you've had verbal complaints for the first and the eighth so we've

had no well you've had the recordings of one of them but you've had no written complaints come in.

Correct, yeah, so I mean it's, you know, it's a little bit of a chicken and egg situation

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:18:19

when we're looking at the first event in terms of the 1st of August. So we, obviously we

spoke with, over email with Mr Patel in advance of the 1st of August. He provided assurances

that were going to be put in place and therefore we felt it was appropriate to monitor to ensure

that those were a put in place and b the effectiveness of those controls so that we consider for

any future applications. So we are in regular communication with previous complainants anyway,

so we arranged to visit to undertake that monitoring and obviously once we're there,

I am receiving through just general conversation with residents, I am receiving their views

and concerns in relation to the event as it's taking place. So I didn't receive any further

written complaint following that. And obviously it's difficult for the committee to consider

why that is or give any weight to it as such because they may well feel that they've given

their views verbally to me during my visits and therefore don't need to put it in writing

or they may well have felt that they didn't want to put it in writing or whatever reason.

We don't know the thinking behind that. So that's the sort of the first. So it's a little

of a difficult situation because we were there and we spoke with people then that's maybe one of the

reasons why there's an absence of further written complaints. In terms of the eighth, obviously as

I say we received the noise recording, I didn't supply the the wording of the complaint that

accompanied that as part of additional information just because to be honest I didn't want to

fill up the late evidence with further information, to be honest. That may well have been an oversight

from my perspective, I could have included those comments, but I just felt that from

supplying the audio of my recordings on the 1st and then they could be compared to the

recordings of the 8th from the resident, then that would be sufficient to give a feel for

the events themselves. So, as I say, yes, we have received formal complaints in relation

to the 8th following our visit on the 1st. Hope that's clear. Apologies if there's any

clarification.

No, no, no. I'm glad, you know, people's complaints, they do carry weight if they're written to

verbal but and that's what we have to take on. Of course. So Mr Patel mentioned earlier

on that he had engaged with residents in the area and allegedly, I've got to use the word

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:21:02

allegedly because he says 95 % of them sort of are positive towards towards that outcome.

Would have been good to have had some of those support letters but that was good to hear

that the applicant had engaged with with the locals and given contact details for locals to

contact them. But what I want to pull up, this is my last question, is the applicant

has spent time sending letters out to residents and I've got to say there must be about 30

or 40 residents within the zone of that area. Actually I was going to talk about the garden

turning into a speaker but forget that. But see they sent these letters out warning everybody

of this party coming this weekend, therefore there is the opportunity of those residents

to have either contacted Mr Patel or contacted you. Have you heard from anyone?

So we've had telephone conversations with the resident in terms of concerns about upcoming

events. Again, it's difficult, I'm not in a position to speculate as to why contact

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:22:21

wasn't made, either with ourselves or with Mr Patel, I can tell you what we've received

and what we haven't. So I've had telephone conversation with a resident. What I would

say, and again, this is, the committee can place what way they feel appropriate on this,

is, you know, this is a long -standing concern for residents, you know, I think obviously

you're aware of the history. It didn't end particularly nicely in terms of the relationship

between residents and the premises in the past. So there is...

Hold on, Mr Patel's left the room. Laura, we should stop shouldn't we because he's not

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:23:04

hearing all the deliberation from Charlie Robinson, am I right?

Yeah, if we can just pause for a moment. Mr Patel, are you still online?

Laura Heller - Legal - 1:23:21

Yeah, I think, Chair, at the very least, all parties need to be able to hear and obviously

participate. The camera, I'm not so concerned about, but the audio isn't concerned. So I

think, ah, Mr Patel's back. Can you hear everything, Mr Patel?

Yes, I can, yeah.

Yeah, we just need to make sure that you can hear and participate in proceedings,

otherwise we do need to pause. So, if you do need to go off for any reason, like a

comfort break or anything like that, then just let us know and we can make the

appropriate arrangements, rather than we just don't want you to miss anything.

No, apologies.

Thank you. No problem.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:24:02

I just didn't want you to miss anything. OK, Charlie, if you'd like to continue.

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:24:08

Yeah, so I think I was saying, Chairman, that obviously it's a long standing issue in the past and residents have reported the experience in engaging with previous premises operators.

And it is obviously allegedly that that wasn't a very positive and a very difficult situation for them.

So I'm not providing excuses or reasons, but it's just worth the committee considering that we see this a lot from environmental health perspective when we're dealing with those campaigns across the board, that sometimes it gets to a point where residents are either unhappy with the amount of time that something's gone on and sort of put off by that or potentially from previous experience.

So I'm not saying that that's the case of reflection on anybody.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:25:00

Yeah, but each owner of a premises is different owners and they can approach them a bit differently.

So, OK, lovely. Right.

That's all that I was going to talk to you about the speakers in the thing that we all know.

That acts like a speaker of its own. But anyway, I'm going to go to members for their questions.

Councillor West, any questions for Mr Robinson?

No questions, Chair.

Thank you very much. And Councillor Gibbon.

OK, I've got one.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 1:25:27

It's sort of, it's sort of vaguely to do the abatement thing, but I'm hoping I can ask it just to get some clarification.

I mean, no, it doesn't apply to this new owner.

But when you were talking about it, you said, sorry, I can't remember the exact word, but something to do with,

I think the issues around it still carry considerable weight.

So it's just it's more the issues to do with why that was issued in the first place.

Whether you think are these issues resolvable with a new owner or will there always be issues?

Because having looked at where this pub is, I mean, it's a lovely pub, but the residence is extremely close to it.

And so I just wondered whether, I don't know whether I'm allowed to ask this,

whether in your view the garden can be used for live music sort of is a way something can be done.

I think we've already drawn attention Councillor Gibbons, sorry again I'll be corrected, we've

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:26:24

already covered that, that abatement goes to the previous owner and not to the new one.

Yeah but it's the issues around it, not I understand that he is really trying his best to

get on with the neighbours not to disturb people, but I just wondered, because you mentioned

there were issues, what were those issues that need to be dealt with so that in the

future we don't have to have another one?

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:26:56

I think I understand where you're coming from, Councillor Cudahy. Obviously, as you said,

we put the abatement notice to one side. I honestly referenced it purely from it being

important for the committee to understand the history and the fact that we got to the

where we had to issue that notice in the past as a result of music in the garden. And that's

its sort of relevance. What I would say, and I think what you're touching upon there is,

you know, is music ever going to be acceptable in that garden? It's not a question I can

answer outright. What I would say is, music, amplified music, is very difficult to mitigate

in an open airspace. So things like the barriers, the blanket bits that have been attached to a

fence in reality aren't going to make any significant difference to the experience of

noise outbreak and the experience of residents because it's open air. You know, for first floor

rooms you've got line of sight over the fence so any barrier is not going to make a difference

anyway and at the end of the day it's a fence with a, I don't know, the quality or the insulating

value of any barrier that's been put in place. But what I'm trying to say is, and obviously

you mentioned around vibration mounts and that sort of thing, a lot of those mitigation

measures other than purely controlling the volume are going to be very difficult to mitigate

anything using those types of devices or or you know vibration mounts or insulation purely

because you're in an open air situation. If it was a sealed room of course you could line

it with insulation and that sort of thing and that would help in an open air space the

noise will escape and it will bounce around off of the surrounding buildings. So really

the only way of controlling that is the volume level. One thing that I would say that this

Mr Patel has done proactively and I, you know, all credit to him for carrying out bits to

try and mitigate the issue and to measure the issue. It's also very difficult for Mr

Patel to be able to monitor how loud these events are within residents' homes and I sympathise

with him for that reason because, you know, it would be unreasonable to expect a resident

to allow a device to be mounted on their land, that's a civil matter, and with the lay of

the land at the bricklayers, where Mr Patel can go to carry out monitoring, I think in

one of the videos you've seen Mr Patel walking along, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's

Walton Terrace, that road there where in front of the cottages, well there's a row of cottages

in between the music and where the monitoring's taking place, so that's, it's not going to

a realistic expectation of what's being experienced within the garden and the home that's blocking

the noise from where it's being monitored from, if you see what I mean. So it's a very

difficult situation. In the constructive conversations I had with Mr Patel, I directed him and really

encouraged him to, there's lots of organisations out there that support music venues and support

pubs in general with this type of thing. A lot of them will be low or no charge and they've

lots of advice that's available out there and I would strongly recommend that Mr Patel

researches some of those organisations and receives advice from them in terms of what

he can put in place for future events. But I appreciate when we're going off the topic

a little bit to looking at future events but that's the advice I've provided and I would

strongly encourage that still at this point.

Okay, are you happy with that, Councillor Gibbons?

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:30:44

Yes, thank you.

No more questions?

OK. Right. So as we move forward, just a quick question.

And there's a venue almost right next door on the GRH system.

That is a music venue. Do you get many complaints from there?

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:31:12

I was looking at Laura there to see whether I would be appropriate to answer that question or not, but I more than happen to.

So I know the premises you're referring to and we, as far as I'm aware, we've not, we've

certainly not got any active complaints. I can't recall the last complaint we received

about there, but I can certainly look that up if the committee wishes me to. But in general,

I would say not in the same way that we do with the bricklayers.

No, you answered that well for me. Thank you very much.

Laura Heller - Legal - 1:31:42

Yeah, just to jump in there, sorry, Councillor Gorm, I think the only way that that would be relevant is if there was a suggestion that there could be noise escape,

for example, from a neighbouring premises that was contributing to that nuisance that's been alleged to be experienced by neighbours.

And therefore, not all of the noise could be coming from Mr Patel's premises. But I suppose outside of that, it just wouldn't be relevant.

That's why I just probed the question really. You know what I'm like, I probed to the outside.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:32:16

Mr Patel, you've had your opportunity and we don't normally let people come back in, but is it a question to Mr Robinson?

No, it's just to add on to the fact of I'm an actual neighbouring resident myself who lives in a flat in between all the pubs.

So I do experience obviously volume from different areas.

Applicant - 1:32:36

No, no, I was just doing what I do, just drifting slightly.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:32:44

Okay, Mr Robinson, is there anything else you'd like to address the group before we move on?

No, thank you, Jim.

Lovely. So we're now moving to closing submissions, should you wish to make any.

so we could take the following it will go licencing officer then the applicant and then it will be

the responsible authority so Kerry and Ashton is there anything you'd like to do in a closing

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 1:33:14

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:33:16

submission? Thank you chair now I've got nothing further to add. Okay Mr Patel this is your

opportunity on a closing submission to add anything else you'd like to?

Applicant - 1:33:23

Apologies for obviously my lack of experience with this opportunity. I would just like to

mention this 10 is for a barbecue party, hence why the 10 was applied for licenseable activity

for the DJ to be on site. I'm not sure if I can give you my verbal confident answer

to say. I think we've all got that quite clear to be honest with you and you don't need to do that

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:33:59

in a submission, you know, and you've learnt well today. I hope we've educated you quite well

on that one. Is there anything else you'd like to add to a submission?

No. Very good. Charlie Robinson?

Nothing from me, thank you. Very good. So that concludes the evidence in this

matter. Before I conclude the hearing, is there any party present who does not consider

that they have had a fair hearing? Everyone happy? Okay, so the subcommittee will now

retire together with the legal advisor, Democratic Services Officer for the matter to be determined.

The subcommittee will come to a decision which will be sent to the applicant and all other

parties who submitted relevant representations within the time limit set out in the regulations

together with the details of any right to appeal. So shortly I'll ask you to leave. The officers are

going to work very quickly Mr Patel at this one because we're all very aware the event is on

Saturday so they're going to go away quite quickly and stuff like that. So as we move forward I'd

like to say Mr Patel, you know the decision whether it's a positive or negative I don't know but all

us would like to certainly moving forward wish you all the best in your business there so we just

want to say and thank you very much for attending today we found that extremely helpful. Thank you,

thank you chairman. Thank you so could please all parties other than the members the Deakin Advisor

Democratic Services Officer please now leave the hearing and once again thank you very much.

Thank you.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon

Conservative

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Cllr Phil Gomm

Conservative

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Cllr Michael West

Liberal Democrats

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Licensing (Premises) Sub-CommitteeThursday, 13th August 2026 at 10:00am

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:14

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:24

1 Confirmation of Chairman

2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:04:32

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:40

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:46

3 Apologies for absence

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:07:07

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:07:09

4 Declarations of interest

5 Hearing Procedure Rules

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:09:08

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:09:12

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:11:31

6 The Bricklayers Arms PH, 19 Walton Terrace, Aylesbury, HP21 7QY (T.E.N)

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:13:08

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:27:58

Applicant's Representative - 0:28:13

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:28:37

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:28:40

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:28:47

Applicant's Representative - 0:29:02

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:29:08

Cllr Michael West - 0:29:33

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:29:35

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:29:47

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:30:04

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:31:01

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:31:33

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:12

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:32:24

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:50

Kerryann Ashton - Licensing Officer - 0:33:58

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:35:04

Applicant - 0:35:46

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:37:39

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:37:49

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:40:03

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 0:40:53

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:42:02

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:42:37

Applicant - 0:42:50

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:43:10

Applicant - 0:43:15

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:43:55

Applicant - 0:44:19

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:45:27

Applicant - 0:45:37

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:25

Cllr Michael West - 0:46:36

Applicant - 0:46:46

Cllr Michael West - 0:47:32

Applicant - 0:47:51

Cllr Michael West - 0:48:50

Applicant - 0:49:25

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:49:43

Applicant - 0:52:58

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:53:45

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:53:58

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:56:39

Cllr Michael West - 0:57:14

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:57:55

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:59:44

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:00:22

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:07:36

Applicant - 1:08:06

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:08:34

Applicant - 1:09:32

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:09:53

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:10:14

Applicant - 1:10:23

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:10:59

Applicant - 1:12:00

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:13:44

Charlie Robinson - Environmental Protection Team Leader - 1:14:13

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:14:58

Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee
Thursday, 13th August 2026 at 10:00am