Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee - Thursday 20 August 2026, 3:00pm

Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee
Thursday, 20th August 2026 at 3:00pm

Speaking:

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Cllr Phil Gomm
Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer

1 Confirmation of Chairman

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Cllr Phil Gomm

2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

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Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Dean Field
Cllr Phil Gomm
Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm

3 Apologies for absence

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4 Declarations of interest

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5 Hearing Procedure Rules

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2023 Virtual Procedure Rules

Laura Heller - Legal
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm

6 The Bricklayers Arms, 19 Walton Terrace, Aylesbury, HP21 7QY

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Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Applicants
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Dean Field
Applicants
Cllr Dean Field
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Dean Field
Applicants
Cllr Dean Field
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicants
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicants
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Applicants
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Laura Heller - Legal
Applicants
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Dean Field
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Laura Heller - Legal
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Dean Field
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Laura Heller - Legal
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Cllr Phil Gomm
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
Applicants
Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm
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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00

Good afternoon, ladies and

gentlemen. Our first business

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:12

on the agenda is to confirm the

chairman for today's hearing

and I can confirm that

1 Confirmation of Chairman

Councillor Phil Gom has been

selected to chair this hearing

today. Thank you, Sunita, for

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:21

that. Everybody, before we

continue, if we could all turn

2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

microphones off because it gets

a little bit frizzy as it goes

through. Thank you very much

for that and just before I introduce everybody, Pooja Kumbhavat, nice to see you. I hear last

week you were a little bit, you know, under the weather, so nice to see you this afternoon. So

okay, so good afternoon and welcome to the Buckinghamshire Council Licencing Subcommittee

hearing in relation to an application for a temporary event licence notice for the 22nd of

I'm the Chairman for this hearing, Philip Gomme and I'm from the Quaiton Ward under Bucks Council.

I'd now like to bring in my colleagues that are on this afternoon. Councillor Gibbon if you'd like

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:01:16

to introduce yourself please. Good afternoon I'm Cathy Gibbon and I'm the Member for Bearden,

Cllr Dean Field - 0:01:24

Kingsbrook and Wing. Very good and then Councillor Field. Hello there I'm Councillor Dean Field for

Stoke Manaville, Windover and Houghton Ward.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:31

Very good, thank you. Then as we continue on, we're now going to go around the

officers as we sit into the hearing.

Katrina Kreling, if you'd like to introduce yourself please.

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:01:43

Good afternoon everyone, I'm Katrina Kreling, I'm one of the senior licencing

officers in commercial licencing at Bucks Council.

And Katrina, like she says, she's our senior licencing officer.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:56

She will present the report, provide advice on any matters related to licencing policy,

guidance and practise.

Now as we come over to our legal side is Laura Heller.

Good afternoon, my name is Laura Heller.

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:02:08

I'm a solicitor from the Council's legal department acting as legal advisor to the committee today.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:16

Very good to see you and of course she's here to advise the panel on licencing and local

government law.

This is to ensure that when the committee makes a decision,

it's both within its powers and legally sound.

Continuing on around our officers is next,

is our Democratic Services Officer,

if you'd like to introduce yourself.

Good afternoon, Sunil Hossain

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:02:35

in Democratic Services supporting the meeting today.

Very good. And Sunil Hossain, again,

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:40

she's our supporting officer in the meeting

and is able to advise on council procedures

if we slip off slightly as well alongside Laura.

Well, okay, so as we continue,

we now move into the attendance,

also in attendance of the following

involved in this hearing

and there have been various stages of discussion

that are being involved.

So there's been a few changes.

So we go through that.

So firstly, Pooja Kumarabhath is the applicant.

So it's good to see you.

Would you like to introduce yourself?

Applicants - 0:03:14

Yes, I'm Pooja Gebaat and I own the Bricklayers Arms and work here.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:03:22

Very good. And also later on we've allowed this to happen is Mr Patel, we met him last week, he's just tied up at the moment, aims to be here no later than half past three.

So we said yes because the procedure we've got to go through this and then we got the presentation by the officer.

So we hope that he will be here in time.

So we are allowing that to happen.

And so then we move on.

The responsible authority would have been Charlie Robinson,

the Environment Team,

but instead he's been replaced today by Stuart Goodman.

Would you like to introduce yourself, sir?

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:03:58

So I'm Stuart Goodman here in Charlie Robinson's stead.

I'm under the Environmental Protection Team

within Environmental Health.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:06

And good to see you.

so you'll be presenting the statement as we continue on.

So I can confirm that if any relevant person

is not present, their representations would have been read

and will be considered when reaching a decision.

Then as we move on onto the agenda item three of today,

do we have any apologies of absence?

3 Apologies for absence

I can confirm we've got apologies

from Charlie Robinson, Chairman.

Very good and of course the latecomer will be Mr Patel which we've all accepted. Thank you for that.

4 Declarations of interest

Then turning now to the declarations of interest under the council's code of conduct.

Do any members have a declaration of interest which they wish to bring to the attention of the subcommittee?

Councillor Field?

No, I don't.

Councillor Gibbitt?

No, Chairman, I don't.

Okay, I am gonna, I didn't bring this up earlier but I'm gonna bring it up now just in case anyone would try to question later.

We have, both Councillor Gibbon and I have had attends before under this premises but we both come into this as always with an open and transparent clear mind listening to this.

I think whether it's relevant or not I thought I'd just say that. Laura was I right to do something if I was?

Yes, Chair, that's fine. As long as you can come to this hearing with an open mind and

you haven't predetermined any matters, then it wouldn't preclude you from sitting on this

hearing. Great. I just wouldn't want anyone to go,

you know, covering us there. Thank you very much.

Thank you for agreeing. Right, okay, so moving then on, as we've cleared that one, moving

5 Hearing Procedure Rules

on to agenda item five, we have the licences subcommittee hearing procedure rules, which

are appended to the agenda pack for information.

Please call parties in attendance confirm

that they have seen and understood the procedure

to be followed at the hearing.

Everyone?

Yeah, very good.

Just coming back.

Just yeah, so what we did is I would introduce you

when you'd be able to speak and stuff

and in different sections.

Mr. Patel, it was his first time last week he got there,

but it was goodbye, I'll just let you know the procedure as we go through.

But you'll be welcomed to speak when asked.

Thank you.

The purpose of the hearing should be borne in mind at all times

to enable those with a right to appear to advance their point of view

and concerns to test the case of their opponents

and to assist the subcommittee to gather evidence

and understand the relevant issues.

Please be reminded that parties should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters previously raised and submitted.

You can't bring new evidence to the line now if you try to.

The subcommittee may depart from this procedure if it considers it necessary and or acquittably equitable to do so.

Continuing on, do we have any preliminary issues?

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:07:29

There was some evidence which was submitted yesterday afternoon,

both from Environmental Health and also from the applicant,

and that related to a 10 which was held at the premises last Saturday.

So I believe that everybody has had a copy of those recordings and also the emails. Can

the applicant and Environmental Health please just confirm that they have seen each other's

material and I believe that the panel have also had sight of that.

Yes, I confirm I've seen it. Very good.

I'm not sure I've had evidence from the bricklays. I know I'm aware of the recordings

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:08:13

that we submitted. They may have gone to Charlie previously.

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:08:19

Yeah, so they did go to Charlie.

If you'd like, I can forward you on the email now.

But Charlie actually forwarded them

on to Democratic Services mailbox.

They've definitely been received by Environmental Health.

I will forward those on to you.

Chair, it's a matter for you whether or not

you want to pause proceedings for a short while to allow Mr.

uh Goodburn the the opportunity to to listen to those

um but I will um forward those on um now.

So Mr. Goodburn would you like us to take a five ten minute break

or um I'd be as long as you're aware of the recordings that's

fine um I'll just double cheque what the what

it is before I can answer that but I wouldn't thought we

need to pause the proceedings this time. No, I mean even when we move through the procedure you

know we could pick up on them as we go through anyway because they're not they're not very long.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:09:25

Okay, glad you're happy with that and of course before thank you very much Laura for bringing

that to our attention. As you know the rules we sort of were asked to accept them and again this

was picked up last week and I'm going to say it for the record, information should make

sure we get it in plenty of time and you know receiving something 24 hours plus slightly

before could be quite irritating for both officers and ourselves. So just for future

reference including environment team, please make sure you give us a bit more time. It

as an opportunity to see it himself.

So if we could make sure we get a bit tighter

on the timeline, but we've accepted it all

and I think it's quite poignant to do so

and so did colleagues and officers.

Right, so we now need to consider on agenda item six,

we now need to consider the officer report

6 The Bricklayers Arms, 19 Walton Terrace, Aylesbury, HP21 7QY

being presented this afternoon

in respect of a temporary event light notice

of the bricklayers arms public house,

19 Wompton Terrace, Ellsbury, Haysbury 21,

Please note that you should only address the subcommittee in relation to matters previously

raised. Any lay evidence will be considered with the consent of all parties. We've just

covered that. Everybody's accepted that, which is good. So we now move on to invite the licencing

officer to present the report outlining the details of the application and representations

received. So it's over to you.

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:11:05

Thank you, Chair. The 10 has been submitted by the premises user Pooja

Kubavat in relation to an event to be held at the Bricklayers Arms 19 Walton

Terrace, Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire HB 217QY. The premises is located in the

town centre of Aylesbury with a mix of other licenced premises venues and

residential flats on a busy road. The premises consists of a pub with a beer

garden to the rear of the premises and a car park. The location plan showing the premises

is attached to this report marked as appendix 1. There is a premises licence in place for

the bricklayer's arms, authorising the sale of alcohol, the provision of recorded and

live music. The licence was transferred to the current licence holder, Onanta Hospitality

Limited on 22 May this year and Pooja Koubavat is the current designated premises supervisor.

A copy of the current premises licence and associated premises plan is also attached

as Appendix 2 to the officer report. As set out in the report, the premises licence was

reviewed by the licencing subcommittee on 25 September last year following a review

application submitted by Environmental Health under the licencing objective of the prevention

of public nuisance. The review led to a number of additional conditions being added to the

premises licence, shown in Annex 3 of the premises licence, and the removal of the premises

deregulation permissions for live and recorded music between the hours of 8 a .m. and 11 p .m.

The officer report sets out the details of other temporary event notices submitted in

respect of the premises in this calendar year. The first was under the previous licence holder

on the 5th of April and then more recently, TENs have been submitted for the 1st, 8th

and 15th of August. An objection was received from environmental health in relation to the

submitted for the event held on the 15th of August,

and a subcommittee hearing took place with regard to that

on the 13th of August.

The outcome was that no counter notice was issued,

and the decision notice stated that the 10 remained

in effect and could proceed as submitted.

The hearing today is for a standard 10 received

by the licencing authority on the 8th of August

for the provision of regulated entertainment

at the premises in the outdoor garden area between the hours of 5pm and 9pm on the 22nd

of August for up to 100 people. A copy of this 10 is attached to the officer report

as appendix 3. As set out in the report under section 104, section 2 and subsection 3 of

the Licencing Act, the Police and Environmental Health may give an objection to an event where

they consider that the proposed licence for activities

will undermine one of the four licencing objectives.

These objectives are the prevention of crime and disorder,

public safety, the prevention of public nuisance,

and the protection of children from harm.

In relation to this 10,

Environmental Health have submitted an objection

on the grounds of preventing public nuisance.

A copy of the objection is attached to the report

as Appendix 4.

The officer report gives more detail, but in summary, the ten is for a live, scarred

and reggae performance in the garden area. Although this event is shorter and finishes

earlier, environmental health are not satisfied that amplified live music in a garden can

take place without significantly affecting nearby residents, undermining the prevention

of public nuisance objective. Environmental health objection is based on both the premises

history of noise complaints and recent evidence gathered.

Previous complaints about outdoor entertainment led to the service of a noise abatement notice

and the review of the premises licence, which resulted in the inclusion of a condition restricting

outdoor music to background level only.

Environmental health concerns regarding outdoor amplified music have been clearly communicated

to the current management over the recent weeks.

and ahead of previous events, the premises licence holder provided assurances

that extensive measures would be implemented to prevent disturbance,

including reducing bass frequencies, careful speaker positioning,

installation of sound dampening barriers, management control of music levels

and regular noise monitoring.

Despite assurances about noise control measures,

monitoring on the 1st of August found amplified music clearly audible

inside a neighbouring home, including bedrooms with particular concern about base noise,

resulting in substantial loss of residential amenity and potential disturbance of residents'

resident sleep. Whilst monitoring wasn't carried out during the event on the 8th of August,

Environmental Health received a complaint and recordings from nearby residents. I understand

that everyone has now also received the copies of the additional material submitted by OCR

Environmental Health and the premises user in relation to the event held on 15 August.

This consisted of email correspondence between the two parties, CCTV footage and recordings

from the Council's noise app.

And following on from that, Environmental Health have maintained their objection.

When considering this 10, the panel must have regard to the national guidance issued under

section 182 of the Licencing Act.

The legislation provides a clear focus on the promotion

of the four statutory licencing objectives,

and each objective is of equal importance.

Again, the report goes into more detail,

but in relation to temporary event notices,

the guidance sets out that the system of 10s

is intended as a light touch process,

and as such, the carrying on of the licensable activities

does not have to be authorised by a licencing authority on an application.

Instead, a person wishing to hold an event at which such activities are proposed to be carried on

gives notice to the licencing authority of the event.

If the licencing authority receives an objection notice from the police or environmental health

that is not withdrawn, it must hold a hearing to consider the objection

unless all parties agree that this is unnecessary.

The licencing committee may decide to allow the licencing

and licensable activities to go ahead as stated in the notice.

If the notice is in connexion with licence activities

at licenced premises, such as this case,

the licencing authority may also impose one or more

of the existing licence conditions on the 10

if it considered that this is appropriate for the promotion

of the licencing objectives.

If the authority decides to impose conditions,

it must give notice to the premises user.

Alternatively, it can decide that the event would undermine the licencing objectives

and decide that the event should not take place.

In this case, the licencing authority must give a counter notice.

In relation to the prevention of public nuisance,

the statutory guidance states that the Act enables licencing authorities

and responsible authorities to representations to consider

what constitutes public nuisance and what is appropriate to prevent it in terms of conditions

attached to specific premises, licences and club premises certificates. It's therefore

important that in considering the promotion of this licencing objective, licencing authorities

and responsible authorities focus on the effect of the licence activities at the specific

premises on persons living and working, including those carrying on business, in the area around

the premises which may be disproportionate and unreasonable.

Public nuisance is given a statutory meaning in many pieces of legislation. It is, however,

not narrowly defined in the 2003 Act and retains its broad common law meaning. It's important

to remember that the prevention of public nuisance could therefore include low -level

nuisance perhaps affecting a few people living locally as well as a major disturbance affecting

the whole community. When considering the council statement of licencing policy, the

following sections are particularly relevant. The policy seeks to balance the interests

of business and residents to make sure that Buckinghamshire Council continues to offer

a wide choice of high quality and well managed entertainment and cultural venues within an

environment that is safe and attractive to residents, businesses and visitors.

With regards to the prevention of public nuisance, the Council's policy states that the licencing

authority is keen to protect the immunity of residents and businesses in the vicinity

of licenced premises.

At the same time, the licencing authority is aware that the licenced trade is important

to the local economy and promoting the Council's culture and leisure aspirations.

Consequently, the licencing authority will try and work together with statutory agencies,

licenced businesses, residents and other businesses to reach a compromise in its decision -making.

The licencing authority will consider whether the measures proposed to deal with the potential

for public nuisance, having regard to all circumstances of the application, are adequate.

Much weight will be placed on recommendations made by environmental health officers in terms

of preventing public nuisance.

And in particular, I'd note in the policy paragraph 3 .37,

in relation to outdoor areas and measures to prevent public nuisance,

it states that the licencing authority supports the use of outdoor areas

such as gardens and forecourts.

However, robust management controls are usually required to ensure

that the use of these areas does not cause a nuisance.

As I've set out, the panel is obliged to determine this matter with a view to promoting the licencing

objectives having regard to the National Guidance and the Council Statement of Licencing Policy.

Should the panel depart from either, it must specify its reasons for doing so. The panel

must also take into consideration all of the representations made and the evidence submitted

both written and orally at the hearing.

The panel can take any of the following decisions

in relation to this 10.

They can permit the event to proceed.

They can permit the event to proceed subject to any one

or more conditions which apply to the existing premises

licence for the bricklayers' arms, which are considered

appropriate to promote the licencing objectives.

Or they can issue the premises user

with a counter notice, which acts as a refusal for the event

to proceed if it considers it appropriate for the promotion of the licence objectives

to do so. The panel should also consider its responsibilities under the Human Rights Act

when considering the fair balance between the interests of the applicant and the rights

of local residents. Any decision taken must be appropriate and proportionate to the objective

being pursued. In particular, the following should be taken into consideration. Article

6, the right to a fair hearing, Article 8, respect for private and family life and Article 1,

first protocol, peaceful enjoyment of possessions which can include the possession of a licence.

That concludes my summary. Thank you, Chair. I'm happy to answer any questions.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:23:16

Very kind. Thank you very much. Our licencing officer there, I'm sure everyone would agree,

a great report for us to listen to and to take in. I'm now going to move around the

around the table so you can ask questions to the licencing officer and first I'll go

to Ms Coopavat if you'd like to ask the licence and officer questions.

No Chair, thank you.

Thank you. Then I go on, we're then going to go to Stuart Goodburn, is there any questions

you'd like to ask the licencing officer?

Not at this time, thank you Chair.

Thank you. Then I continue on to members for their opportunity. Firstly, I'll go to Councillor Gibbon.

Thank you, Chairman.

Councillor Field.

No, no, no questions. Thank you.

Sadly, I've got a couple. Excuse my dog, maybe in the background. I just want some clarification, actually.

It's not cross questioning or anything like that.

Just want to double cheque. So we've had no complaints or representation from TVP.

Tell us that please.

No Councillor, I'm not if not.

None at all. And then when you spoke about the part of the reasoning behind this and you said about the noise abatement

and the historic and stuff like that. So just regarding the noise abatement, that goes back because this is a separate application

from a new owner and it's not the old owners that had all of that historic issue and noise

abatement. So the noise abatement, that's now invalid I understand?

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:25:03

Chair, Stuart will probably be able to advise you better on that from environmental health

because it was then that issued the abatement notice.

Okay I'll bring that when I speak to you Mr Goodburn. Okay I'll just stick into the

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:25:22

So all of that introduced the conditions of not being able to operate outside under the normal routine that they could do?

All of that historic...

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:25:37

Yes, that's what led to the review which was prior to the new licence holders having the licence transferred to them.

So the changes had been made to the licence at that point.

Yeah, of the previous owner. OK, thank you.

Thanks for that clarification.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:25:46

Councillor Gibbon has come in from the side, so I'll allow her to come forward.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:25:51

Thank you.

With these complaints, is it only from environmental health or have there also been complaints from residents?

Or is it just one resident?

And do you know, is that the person who lives nearest to the pub?

That again, Councillor Gibbon, would be better suited to aimed at environmental health licencing

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:26:17

have not received any complaints directly. I believe they've gone to environmental health.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:26:23

Oh right, so to clarify licencing haven't had, okay. Laura Heller, Hila Heller.

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:26:33

Thank you, Chair. Just to confirm, Councillor Gibbon, that it's the environmental health

or the police that can object to a ten. So the residents wouldn't have the opportunity

to do that specifically in relation to the ten. So I'm not sure if that's what you meant or if it

was in relation to sort of wider complaints when previous tens have been held which of course would

be a question for Mr Goodburn. Yeah thank you it was about so yes complaints about the previous

ones thank you for clarifying that. Very good Councillor thank you Laura for just correcting

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:27:06

not corrected but updating us on that one. Very good, no more questions for licencing officer.

So as we continue on then, so going from there we go to invite the applicant now to address the

hearing and do remember if Mr Patel turns up we are going to allow him to come in. He's got about

two or three minutes but he'll turn up so we're going to leave it up to you to start the

your address to the hearing?

Yep, that's fine. Sorry, I'm a bit nervous.

So if the list goes funny, but I will say Mr Patel was extremely nervous last week.

So just relax and we're very relaxed. Just do as you need to do.

Applicants - 0:27:50

Perfect. So firstly, I want to thank the committee

for giving us the opportunity to address this application.

We understand that our responsibility as a licence premises

is not only to provide entertainment and support the local community,

but also to do so responsibly and with the consideration for our neighbours.

We are still relatively new operators of the brick liaisons,

but we do not say this as an excuse,

and we fully recognise the responsibilities

that come with operating a licenced premises.

Since taking over, we have listened to the concerns raised

and made changes to the way our events have been managed.

The application before the committee today relates specifically to the live band event on 22nd of August.

We have fully acknowledged that residents may hear music whilst the band is performing and we aren't trying to suggest otherwise.

Our aim is to ensure that the event is responsibly managed, appropriately monitored and limited in its impact on neighbouring residents.

The original communication to residents referred to planned live music between 8 to 10 p .m.

When the event was finally confirmed and changed, residents were issued a following updated letter

setting up the exact timings. Although the overall programme did change, we intentionally

brought the outdoor finishing time forward from 10pm to 9pm to reduce the impact later in the

evening. For this event, management will be present again throughout to monitor sound,

manage customer behaviour and dispersal, and respond to any concerns where possible.

We are also willing to hire a professional sound limiter and work with Environmental Health on reasonable sound controls.

We are therefore asking to hold a controlled live band event with a clear 9pm outdoor finish,

advanced communication with residents, and active management and appropriate sound controls.

We also believe it is important to show how we have responded to previous concerns.

For the event on 15th August, we moved the DJ indoors and chose to stop outdoor music

at 9pm despite the temporary event notice permitting entertainment later on into the

evening.

And Environmental Health subsequently acknowledged that moving the DJ indoors did reduce the

level of music compared with previous events.

We have also started taking our own sound recordings and retaining CCTV evidence so

that we can properly monitor our events, understand the impact that they may be having and identify

where further improvements can be made.

We recognise environmental health concerns regarding the frequency of recent events and

have taken this on board.

This is intended to be our final tent event in August and going forward we intend to reduce

the frequency of outdoor events and avoid consecutive weekends wherever possible.

We do not suggest that we have got everything right.

We are new operators and we are still learning, but we hope our actions demonstrate that when

concerns are raised, we do listen and we make changes and try to improve.

The Bricklayers Arms is a community pub and we want it to be a place where local people

can come together and enjoy occasional events and live entertainment.

Our neighbours are also part of that community and we understand the importance of finding

the right balance.

We want to continue working constructively with residents, environmental health and the

council so that the pub can continue to offer responsibly managed entertainment while being

considerate of those who live around us.

Thank you for your time and I'm happy to answer any questions.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:31:33

Very good, good presentation made to all of us there and you didn't come across at all nervous, so very good on the hearing which is great.

I still realise that your colleague isn't here yet, but don't worry, we're going to let him come in when required.

But I'm going to move around the board again because it's question time to you.

Again, don't feel nervous and everyone just asks easy questions. Licencing officer, any questions for the applicant?

No, thank you, Chair.

There you go, there's one. Then we come down to the Environment team. Any questions from you?

Yes, please, Chair, if I may.

Very good.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:32:18

The event that you had scheduled for last week, the 10, which was for an outdoor DJ,

was there a particular reason why it was moved from an external performance to an internal performance?

Applicants - 0:32:35

Yes, so because we wanted to, we knew that this might interrupt, cause disturbance outside.

So we spoke with the host of the party and we said, look, we don't want to disturb the neighbours anymore.

So can we move this DJ inside? Just use the regular speakers that we have so it is controlled from our system and that the music is more controlled.

So, yeah, that was.

Miss Kupovac, we're just losing you every now and again. We've got a bit of a...

No, no, it's not your fault. It's Wi -Fi for you.

Shall I repeat the...

I believe we all got it. I think we got it. I'm just letting you know that it's just breaking off.

Sorry about that.

No, no, don't say sorry. It's not your fault. But, OK. Another question from Environment Team.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:33:27

No, it was just in regards to the previous event being moved indoors when it was previously advertised as external.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:33:35

Yeah, okay, very good. Now I'm going to move around to members. This time I'm going to go a different direction to Councillor Field first.

Cllr Dean Field - 0:33:43

Thanks very much. I have a couple of questions. In the letter that it looks like you've gave to your, the residents, it says about the timings being from five till nine,

but you're saying when does it start on the 22nd?

Yes, so those are the correct time.

Applicants - 0:34:08

What I was referring to is when we first... Oh, sorry.

Okay, that's okay. So for that five -hour window, sorry, four -hour window,

Cllr Dean Field - 0:34:20

surely a live band wouldn't be performing for the four hours, would they?

Applicants - 0:34:28

No, there won't be. So the first two are, the first two is...

Hold on one sec, I'm going to butt in. Sorry, let's give it back. Your partner is here.

So Neela is letting me know and there he is, Mr Patel is now in the room. Mr Patel, would

you like to introduce yourself to everybody quickly?

I am Prabha Patel, part of the management team at the Bricklays Arms.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:34:54

Very good. So just to let you know that Shilka Bunn is from the Environment team this time

round. I think you know nearly everybody from the big team. You have a week except for the

Licence Officer. She's in for today and has been looking after everybody and I don't think

you know Councillor Field in the top there. He's from the Stoke Manly area. But I'd like

say your partner's been doing a very good job on presentation but she's coming to question time so

and Councillor Field was far in question so Councillor Field to go back to you.

Cllr Dean Field - 0:35:39

Okay so the timings of the event on the 22nd of August by the live band is from 5 till 9.

So clarification, out of those times, when would the live music be played?

Because they wouldn't be playing for four hours, would they?

Applicants - 0:35:59

No, Councillor Field. So from 5 to 9, the agenda was submitted as evidence where from 5 to 7,

One of the band here will just have background sort of amplified music on and the band will play the first set at 7 to 7 .45 and have a break of 30 minutes and play for another 45 minutes.

So in total, the live band music is for 90 minutes.

Cllr Dean Field - 0:36:27

Okay, yeah, that's standard. Okay, and I've just heard what you've done from last, from the 15th,

you took the DJ inside, which is all the positive in my, where I sit, and you've tried your best so

far and you're engaging with the neighbours. So, no other questions. Thanks very much.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:36:50

Thank you, Councillor Field. Councillor Gibbon, any questions?

Yes, thank you.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:36:57

So, I just want to...

I'm just going to make a suggestion actually.

If we allow questions to, let's cover that, and then I'm going to allow Mr Patel to speak.

He might answer, I know you don't know what your partner said, but we might be asking questions for you.

Is everyone in agreement I do it that way?

Yeah, OK. So, Councillor Gibbon, if you'd like to ask.

Right. So, you've had sort of one ten a week. Are you planning on doing the same, having

events every week in September as well?

Applicants - 0:37:42

No, so August was kind of like our trial period to see what the community wanted in our pub

what was working well. But September we are well aware that we won't be having,

and try to not have events on every weekend, especially consecutive weekends.

So we are keeping that in mind when we're planning September and the future months.

I have to say just to decide the event you're having, not this Saturday,

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:08

but the one after sounds very interesting. I'd love to know how that goes.

I'm going to let you speak separately, please.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:38:16

OK, so another just a couple more questions.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:21

So if you did have a complaint this Saturday during the event, what what would you what steps would you take?

Applicants - 0:38:37

So we would definitely look at the sound levels from our own like phone that we have, see if it's too loud.

and if the residents do come to us and complain, we will definitely speak to the manager of them and ask to turn the volume down.

OK, thank you. And the other one. Oh, no, that was.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:57

No, so that's I should have asked that to the environment.

No, that's for me. Thank you all for me. Thank you very much. Very good.

Thank you, Councillor Gibbon. Mr Patel's itching to get going.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:39:08

but I'd just like to ask you a few questions. It's nice to ask the different partners' questions.

In your report that you put in, you had kindly put a load of letters out into the community previously.

Have you done a top -up letter regarding this event or did you just let the other one, you know,

you put a letter out with all the different dates of activities? Have you put another little reminder out about this one or?

Applicants - 0:39:38

I believe we have it should be there is another letter which had the updated timings on and the rest of I think that's the rest of the month so we did send that out but once we do sort out like

Yeah we got a problem

Anything new comes up for next month we will be sending out another letter for them

You broke down a little bit then but did everybody capture or would you like

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:40:02

I didn't. I wonder whether the applicant can just reiterate what she said in order that

especially everybody at home can also hear. Thank you.

Applicants - 0:40:17

Yes, sorry. So we haven't sent, the last one we've sent out was updating them on the correct

timings of the band and when that was confirmed and then we will be communicating with them

again once we have more events planned.

Okay and regarding the letter that you put out with the new timings,

have you had any repercussions from that from residents, you know,

has any resident contacted you from that objecting to the event?

We've not heard anything back from the residents.

We have given them our phone number so there is that line of contact that they can reach us through.

But we haven't heard any objections from the letters that we've sent so far.

OK. And you've changed the timing of the band. OK.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:41:15

And the last point I've got to make. It's quite clear you're trying to do what you can.

and I must admit it was I think it was one of the committee's recommendations last week maybe to test the DJ inside.

So it's really good to hear that you've gone away with an attempt to help last weekend so which is good.

That's the only question I've got finishing yourself off and I'm going to allow Mr Patel to speak now if everyone's happy. Continue.

Thank you. Thanks Chairman. Yes, I will just like to obviously reiterate and add on to

Applicants - 0:41:56

the questions asked by Councillor Gibbon and yourself. Of course, as part of the Events

Management Team, I'm proactively in the garden during the event, hence why I was able to

submit the evidence from the previous event, which encountered every so hour of the recording

plus visual evidence of how the garden environment is looking like plus what sort of noise pollution

it's creating. So when if, if there is a complaint raised to our personal line, we would obviously

take that on board quite quickly to ensure and speak to the life band if at this case

happens to have a complaint to ask them to obviously reduce the volume or maybe take a

break for a little bit which might help them in that particular moment. And then in factor to the

question of the letters we have we had obviously communicated to the neighbours that the timing

would be 8 to 10. And obviously, from our experiences throughout

the events of our trial period, we've noticed that residents

prefer not to have any music going on past 9pm. Hence why we

change the timings to have it earlier from five to the nine,

which should help the noise complaints.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:43:35

Very good. I'm going to allow Stuart to ask questions if you'd like to to the partner of the business.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:43:42

I think it's looking at exploring the, so, sorry, my previous question is in relation to moving the DJ inside

and the answer being that it was seen as a better way of reducing the likely impact from the DJ on the

close the closest voices to receptors. I was just wondering in regard to your comments and also

that have come up as well is your understanding of DJ and your understanding of a band and turning

that music down as a control. A DJ is relatively simple to turn down, you turn down the volume.

a band, especially a live scar band, you've got a drum kit and you have to play as

loud as a drum kit otherwise all you hear is drums. I have encountered the band

before other events across the district and I'm just concerned that you won't be

able to turn a band down. You can turn the microphones down but you won't be able to

from probably a public safety point of view or as well as a nuisance point of view is that I have been at events where bands have been turned off or turned down

and it is not well received by customers in any way shape or form. I've been at small events and I've been at big events and I'm just wondering if you're going to turn off the band or

turning it down, mid event, how you're going to look at dealing with the full out from

a full garden of 100 or so customers who want to have come to listen to a band. Because

that's a safety concern as well as a nuisance concern from my point of view.

Mr Patel?

OK, that's one from me.

Applicants - 0:45:50

Hold on a second, Legal raised her hand.

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:45:59

Chair, I just make the point and I appreciate that Mr. Goodbrand's making this point off the back as something that the applicant has said.

However, we're veering into an objection under another licencing objective which hasn't been previously raised.

And so I raise that as a matter for you as Chair, whether or not you want to go down this route.

but environmental health have obviously objected to public nuisance.

This is the first time public safety has been raised.

So it is a new matter.

So I was going to ask for some just double guidance on that way,

because I feel that that's not, you know, we talk about noise.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:38

I understand exactly what Mr. Crenshaw says.

That's what we're looking at.

it's and I would also disagree a bit with the statement too in my opinion but that's

that's a different argument but I'd rather we disregard what was just discussed on that question

because as Mr Patel has already said I could imagine and Councillor Field has already brought

it to our attention that if the band was playing for the continuous four hours could be frustrating

if it's loud but Mr Patel has done as much and Mrs Coopavat has done as much as they can to

cut that back, they've cut the time back and the band is only playing in two sessions

and like you said if there is an interference of sound they could cut it back and cut the sets back

a little bit so I think it's been quite a bit done. Is there any other questions you'd like to ask

from the Environment team. No. Colleagues have you got any questions?

No, Councillor Field hasn't. Councillor Gibbon. Councillor Gibbon has.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:47:58

Yes, I'm just trying to get a picture about sort of how widespread the noise

this interruption might be. So I'm just wondering sort of how many complaints you have received

and really from is it from a lot of different people or just one person or people very near

to the venue. Just to get this picture of how much of a disturbance is actually being

caused.

Mr Patel.

Applicants - 0:48:26

Hi, thanks for raising that point. Obviously I would like to mention to the committee as

obviously, hearsay. I did not submit this as evidence, but I have, when we first took over

the bricklayers arms, we introduced ourselves to all the neighbours, where, as I mentioned in my

previous hearing for the 10, 95 % of the neighbours have come and spoken to us, and have mentioned and

gave us messages on text as well via WhatsApp to continue support the pub and the public house for

local community and they quite enjoy us having events on they understand that it's a pub and

events are likely to happen as is a public house it's a house for the local community.

We haven't received any communications from one particular neighbour however I think one of the

majority of them have come back to us and approached us. Very good. Councillor

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:49:31

up? Very good. A question I want to ask is the way, again this is we're talking about this

application but moving forward you know you have a, I might get corrected by legal in a second

for asking this but would you be so you you're dealing with historic issues

that's affecting your business there at some time would you be prepared to

challenge the condition?

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:50:16

Yeah I would say that that's not the discussion in this in this here and

obviously, currently those conditions are in place,

hence the reason why the business has had to put this ten in.

I think if we just kind of try and stick to the issue,

the determination today.

I knew I was drifting slightly.

I know I'm drifting, but I was prodding into that direction.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:50:36

Ms. Kimabat, you've got your hand up.

Applicants - 0:50:42

I just wanted to go off of what Councillor Givens asked

and see exactly how many people have actually complained, whether it's multiple houses or

whether it's a single house and I wanted that clarification if any with environmental health

I think can give it. Yeah we'll ask that question when we go through that. Very good, yeah.

We should have you on the panel. Okay, is there any points extra the applicants would like to say

before we move on.

Okay.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:51:15

So now we come down and we move on to the Environment team.

So now to present their points as we go through.

Over to you.

Thank you, Chair.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:51:29

I'm probably going to have to be careful from Laura's point of view in terms of stepping outside the bounds of the tent,

because obviously that's what's before us today.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:51:39

Hold on one second, Mr Patel, your mic's on and let's scoop about your hands up still.

Again, back to you.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:51:48

So I will try and direct any commentary now to the ten before us.

Yeah.

I'm more than happy to answer any contextual questions that may come up from the panel as long as Laura is content with that,

but they will be contextual only rather than relevant to this particular application if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does.

Obviously, you've always seen Charlie's report.

I would just like to highlight the paragraph at the bottom of page 53 on the evening of

the 1st of August where Environment and Health undertook some noise monitoring, residential

property, the purpose of which was to consider amplifier music for an event which is audible

within the dwelling including living in the accommodation, bedroom, music was a significant

volume with particular emphasis on the low frequency noise. Now that is commensurate

with any event which is taking place in the garden, be it a band or a DJ or live music.

So, and again in regard to this 10, this is for a band,

although it is playing for two 45 -minute sets,

that is commensurate with previous bands that have played at that premises,

which is not necessarily the 10 that's before us today,

but it would be commensurate with other events that have been held there

prior to the current premises licensee taking over.

So in terms of the impact of a band, it's the same as what we've seen before.

In regards to potential for nuisance,

the noise impacts a number of residential properties as well as open spaces.

It does impact a class of people that live within the confines of

Broughton Road and Roulton Street that goes along the side,

and they are adversely impacted when a band plays at the premises and it does

meaningfully prevent or have a material interference or quiet enjoyment of their home

for the duration of that performance.

This has led to historical complaints but in regards to this 10 that's before us today

which has been put in admittedly it's two 45 minute sets

But I would put it to the panel that during those two 45 -minute sets,

the residence that will be impacted or the public space that will be impacted

will be done so in a material manner,

whereby it will have a material interference with the quiet enjoyment of that space.

You would not be able to sit and read a book in the garden,

you would not be able to sit and watch TV

and you definitely wouldn't be able to rest in the bedroom in the adjacent properties.

That is in part due to the nature and location of the beer garden, the nature and context of the

proposed regulated entertainment, that of a live band with a drummer, a keyboardist, a lead guitarist,

a bassist and a vocalist. And although there are some controls to be done in terms of reducing

volume and amplification, when you have a drum set you have to play as long as your drum set,

or otherwise we're going to get his drums and that is the nature of these from my experience in dealing with this over the last 10 -12 years.

I was pleased to hear that the DJ event was moved indoors due to its likely impact.

My concern being in regards to this particular tenor before us today is that the impact from the band would be a lot more significant than the impact from the DJ

and that the premises licensee at the time took the decision to reduce that impact by moving indoors,

which I would say having spoken to both premises licensees prior to, or as they took over the pub,

would be my direction for any live entertainment at that premises due to the suitability of the garden for that sort of space.

So at the moment the concerns raised by environmental health are that any live music that occurs

within the confines of the garden will likely not support the licencing objectives in that

it will cause a public nuisance. It will likely cause a private nuisance which may attract

formal action under a separate regime and that although I do note that the premises

licensees are looking to take reasonable steps to not do so, that the resulting conditions

on the premises licence were put there for good reason and that was to safeguard public

immunity and make sure that the licence and objectives are fully upheld. I'll be more

than happy to answer any questions on any of that or any contextual questions in regards

to companions as long as Laura is happy for me to do so.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:57:00

We're trying to stay away from any deep dive questions that we would crack on with this

application in front of us today. Okay so Chair if I can just say that any questions in relation

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:57:11

to the nature of recent complaints or TENs I think it is going to be relevant to your assessment of

how potentially the premises are going to manage this 10 that you're considering and so complaints

from recent complaints from neighbours are are going to be relevant. I think the point I was

trying to make before is when we're talking about potential review of licence conditions and that's

completely separate. I know. Mr Tarr, I'll let you ask questions. I have an order but I have to go around

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:57:47

to keep it easier. Does the licencing officer have any questions they'd like to put to the environment

team? No thank you chair. Very kind. Now I move on to Ms Kubibet and Mr Patel. Any questions

Applicants - 0:58:12

you'd like to put forward to the environment? Your microphone's off. I would just like to

I'll reiterate the same question Pooja asked previously on the number of complaints and

how many households are being affected or sort of providing any complaints of any events taking

place. I understand obviously the environmental health's point of view. It's a life band and we

are therefore engaging with the neighbour to make sure they are aware that the music will be played

during this particular time. Any music in the garden will be heard by the residents of our pub

because their garden immediately meets our garden at the same point and the only

separation is a wooden fence. This condition has obviously affected us and in our business

quite majorly. I would just like to point out that the previous 10 that was approved for the barbecue

party, our decision to put the DJ inside, costed us, host having to end this barbecue party three

hours earlier than proposed time due to the speakers being inside and the hot weather

meaning that customers and local residents of Aylesbury were unable to enjoy their time

in a building which is 500 years old with high temperatures.

So essentially my point going back to that would be if you can elaborate or explain the

of number of households affected and how many campaigns were raised purely because garden

is the only space we can use to ensure that the business stays operating.

Very good. Environment, could you answer?

I can. So in regard to the complaints that led to the formal action being taken last

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:00:22

there were three principal complainants.

This was what led to the issue of a noise abatement notice

in regard to private nuisance on the then Premises Licency.

Following the service of that notice,

the Premises Licency changed hands

to the partner of the Premises Licency.

However, that Premises Licency was still active members,

so that notice was still valid.

And since that change, which was the first change of Premises Licencee, it's changed

again to yourselves, so that's now the second change. So I can confirm for Councillor Gibbon

that that notice, I know everybody here present, that the notice that was said by the Premises

Licencee is none and void, is now spent. So there's no current abatement notice in place

for the Premises in regard to private nuisance at this time. So in relation to that notice,

there were four principal complainants, three principal complainants and we had

in excess of 142 noise app recordings which are evidence that the tenant the residents can make

on their own mobile phone devices along with officer visits into private properties over

a period of time and also observations from in and around the local area.

Okay, when the law has since been...

Hold on a sec please. Laura's got her hand up. I have to butt him like that so when legal

puts her hand up.

I'm sorry Stuart to put my hand up when you're mid flow. I just wanted to clarify with Mr

Laura Heller - Legal - 1:01:59

Patel whether he meant historic complaints going back to when the previous licensee was

in place or whether or not he was referring to the amount of complaints that have been

received either in relation to the 10 on the 15th of August or the 10 on the 8th of August

or the 10 on the 1st of August. I thought he meant more recent events that have been

held since they've taken over. So I just wonder if we clarify that so that Shiwet can give

the correct information over. Thank you.

Thank you Laura, I think I was proposing from when we took over, obviously we can't comment

Applicants - 1:02:42

on any information of previous management, we can only do so on our new management. So

anything else that needs to be took over, yeah.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:02:59

In that case there is one principal complainant who's lodged noise app recordings with the

However, there are two complainants who speak directly to each other and one feeds the other.

So at the moment there is one active complainant.

Lovely. OK.

Thank you Stuart.

Thank you Stuart, that was good to answer that.

I've forgotten where I've got to now.

it's we've we've flip -flopped a little bit um so I think it comes down to so that's the applicant

have asked environment team questions correct um members have you got any questions you'd like to

take to uh the environment team Councillor Gibbon no because Mr Patel asked what I was going to ask

So, that's competitive.

OK. Councillor Fields?

Done my job.

OK.

Yeah, a couple of questions.

Cllr Dean Field - 1:04:03

So, when you started off your speech, you said about the geography and the history of the building.

And in your eyes, that won't be appropriate with premises for live music,

which is where I just listen to and my knowledge of live music, that's all speculation.

So regarding live music, there's plenty of ways that you can actually control the music and that's the type of songs,

because this is a ska and reggae music.

So if they look carefully at the songs choices, the sound can actually go down there.

And then also if you've got a good sound engineer.

So I come from history of putting on outdoor events.

So that said, so now with the one complaint that you've said recently,

on that one complaint, was environmental health present with the appropriate recording,

what's the word, material? Equipment. That's the word. So the complaint is in direct relation to

the temporary event notices that have been submitted to the council rather than direct

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:05:25

complaints into service in regard to a private nuisance which are two very different things.

If it was a private nuisance complaint and we're investigating a private nuisance,

we would look at noise apps, subject warning letters to the current premises licensees,

as well as installation of specialist knowledge recording equipment

and officer investigations at those properties.

That's for a private nuisance.

We are not undertaking a private nuisance investigation at this time.

Otherwise, we'd have engaged formally with the premises licensees.

We'd have issued them the subject warning letter and so on and so forth.

We are entirely minded that as new premises licensees,

as has been said by them themselves and by other members here,

that they are entitled to find that balance between the rights of the individuals'

quiet enjoyment to their home and their right to operate a business as they see fit.

And I'm keen that that gets explored and done so in a robust manner.

Going to your point on the style and type of music,

I agree wholeheartedly with what you're seeing in Councillor Field.

Dependent upon the nature and character of the music that is played in that space,

it can and can't work.

If it is something which is amplified,

it's going to be difficult within the confines of that space

to produce music in line with current guidance.

And I go to the Institute of Environments, sorry,

the Institute of Acoustics in regards to this matter,

which would have music at a level at the boundary of that premises,

which is no greater than 65 decibels, averaged over a 15 minute period.

Now, in that space, that is tricky for amplified music.

so a live band with amplification, a live DJ set or even recorded music.

If you are having something of an acoustic set in nature, i .e. a chap or a lady with a guitar singing acoustically,

that would be perfectly viable.

And this is a conversation that I've had with the licencing officer and the current premises licensees at that premises

shortly after they took over the premises with the invitation to engage with EP,

environmental protection, in regard to any submission of TENs going forward or changes they wish to make.

I hope that answers your question Councillor Field. Laura, you got your hand up again please.

Laura Heller - Legal - 1:08:08

Hold on a sec Councillor Field. Chair if I can just clarify with Stuart because he mentioned noise app

and that being in relation to a private nuisance,

but his colleague Charlie Robinson has submitted

a noise app recording which appears to be

from a resident taken on the 15th of August, 1731,

which was during the period of time

when the last 10 was held,

and that's been asked by Environmental Health

for the committee to consider that.

So I just want to clarify,

are you saying that as far as your representations

are concerned that that is not relevant or are you asking the committee to take that into account

because I'm just confused. So Councillor Fields question unless I'm wrong was in regard to us

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:09:00

investigating a noise complaint which we are currently not undertaking and there's a formal

process for that. The noise act recording that's been submitted by one of the local residents is in

I would like to clarify to Councillor Field that there was not a current investigation in regard to private nuisance at this time.

Cllr Dean Field - 1:09:31

OK, so so just for my clarification, on the 15th where you had one complaint, they didn't have calibrated equipment.

They had a mobile phone device or something like that.

So you're going to pick up secondary noise from the pub opposite and any other gardens around there.

Am I right, Simon?

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:09:51

The mobile phone app is a sworn statement in law.

So it's the same as submitting a section 9 witness statement whereby the individual that makes it

has agreed and signed the testing that the music, the recording they are submitting

is in direct relation to the subject of that matter, i .e. that pub.

So that would be a matter of contempt if they were to give false submission.

OK, no other questions. Thanks very much.

Sorry, Laura.

Laura?

Laura Heller - Legal - 1:10:26

I'm so sorry. I keep putting my hand up.

But it's just off the back of that.

You may have questions for the applicant because they have submitted some recordings which suggest that there was some activity going on in the next garden.

So you may have some questions around that off the back of what Mr Goodbunner said.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:10:51

Now it's my turn. Thank you. Very good Laura. Thank you very much.

Laura, again, you don't need to say sorry, you're doing your duty, so we respect that,

so you never need to say sorry, seriously. So some of the things I would like to pick up on,

and again what's got us here a bit with the 10s that have to come in is due to the conditions

that have been put in, and you made a statement to say that the previous owner created the problem,

But you actually rather than put it at the venue of the problem, you narrowed it down to one of the partners you said that the licence changed and then someone was taken off of that.

But because they were still there, you still had a problem. You said something basically like that was.

Yeah, so I mean as with most things we have an enforcement policy. The enforcement policy

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:11:51

starts with an informal resolution and it has stages going up. So as we pursued the

matter last time, we tried to take a staggered approach. We followed the enforcement policy.

We went and asked nice and said please don't, please put reasonable control in place. As

the evidence presented itself, we took the decision it would be unreasonable to

unreasonably impact the whole premises in regards to the control that we were

we were looking to mitigate the noise of. So we tasked the individual and said you

must abate the nuisance caused by live and or recorded music. Now that's a very

broad brush approach I agree but basically it means that the premises

itself is under no regulation, regulatory control. It can operate as it so wishes

by the direction of the premises licensee at the time and it's the

individual who was responsible at that time as the responsible parties needed

to mitigate the nuisance caused by turning it down, modifying it. That failed

by dint of, either they didn't, three things happened in the

You don't comply with the notice, you appeal the notice or you don't comply with it.

We were considering further formal action at the time.

All that further formal action then was to call the premises licence in for review and

that is what happened last September where we put forward a raft of conditions which

were then put on the premises licence as a escalation of what had occurred prior to that.

During that transition time however, the premises licensee changed hands, which they thought was a smart move because they were no longer the premises licensee or the responsible party.

The problem is they owned the company that owned the licence, they were still the responsible party, which is why when we had 10s earlier in the year they got withdrawn.

Yeah, but again, you did direct it to the person, there was a person that was...

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:13:56

It was the person to start with, business second.

Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much for clarifying that.

The other thing, and just to clarify again, the noise abatement is over now, that's invalid, because that was down to the last owner?

Yeah, it was the last premises licence, the last owner of the last premises licensee and

all responsible party, which Mr Patel and Mr Kelly are not. However, part and parcel

of what we then tried to escalate was because the individual was not complying with the

notice then that we felt it appropriate to review the licence and request conditions

be appended to it which is what occurred last September to safeguard the quite enjoyment.

Sure and my last question is, so again like you sort of said it's one or two complainants

but like you say it does have an effect on the surrounding area too when any event goes on but

the applicants have put a letter out to all of the residents in the area they've also done an

update letter of the change of time of the event and it's still a band playing have you had any

pre -complaints come in of people that are not happy that those events are going on that's going on

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:15:26

uh yes so you have the individual that's um let's just say i'll wait for lord to put a hand up

The individual that submitted the noise apps, when they found out the last ten had been granted, it burst into tears on us.

That's how strongly she felt.

And obviously we have communicated with that individual because they are directly impacted by live music and or regulated entertainment because of the premises.

If there was provision for them to do so, they would likely put representation into the panel themselves.

However, with TENS, as you know, it's only responsible parties, so it's only myself, the police that can do so.

However, we have been in contact with the people who are impacted and they have responded in such a manner.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:16:22

Yeah, last question. The applicants put in some evidence, a video, of activity with their neighbours, etc, going on till about 12 o 'clock at night or so.

I can't remember the time, whatever, it was late. Did you get any complaints from neighbours regarding that noise? Because there was quite a lot of noise going on. Was there any complaints?

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:16:47

No, I was going to say the only complaint we've got on the noise app is in direct relation to the music from the premises, which was less than it has been because the DJ had been moved inside.

There is people noise on the recording, but I would advocate that again during, and again I'll just wait for Laura to put a hand up with this one,

During the process of the investigation, when I have attended the complainant's properties or the impacted properties,

there has been background music played in the garden, there has been voices overheard within the confines of private residences and or their gardens of that ilk.

That's not in any way contentious. That is to be expected. If you buy a house next door to a pub, you're going to hear some sort of pub noise.

if you have got a beer garden you're going to hear people sat in it enjoying their day having a drink whatever it is

but there is a distinct difference between a pub garden and an external event space

and when you then move into an external event space that becomes

an external event space not a pub garden and those two very different things

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:18:03

Okay right, thank you very much for the end of my questions I've had. So we're now going

to move to closing submissions should you wish to make any as we come towards the end

of our hearing today. So I'd like to go down to our licencing officer, have you got any

closing submissions you'd like to make? No thank you chair. Thank you. Continuing down

now go to the applicant is there any closing submissions that you'd like to make

no mr patel yeah carry on

Applicants - 1:18:36

your mic is on

Apologies. Is he like that at work?

Apologies, yeah. So just carrying on from Mr. Stewart's comments on external event space and pub garden.

Just to let the subcommittee know the garden is pretty much the same capacity on a Saturday afternoon every weekend.

approximately. So to clarify as an external event space and a pub garden I think is unreasonable

on that point because just I would understand that because there was a ten in place for

this particular event it was classed as an event space rather than a pub garden. And

a question, a closing submission on that, I know there's no time for any questions but

It's a live band.

Obviously, for anyone who has been or has attended a live band, the committee today

obviously would know that the sound will be, sound will impact the surrounding areas.

But however, seeing the considerate of time, we've notified them at, consecutively twice.

We also wanted to understand why the neighbour hasn't also engaged with us if they have any concerns,

which we would have happily worked with them to understand what they would like, whether it's the time,

whether it's the position or any other variables that we could work with.

But just to point out for this particular event, it's live band.

We understand there's going to be some noise, hence why we have applied for a 10,

and we've limited it to 90 minutes to ensure

that the residents understand that the music is only

for a short period of time and not for the whole

of this Saturday afternoon plus evening,

which was previously planned in for quite late.

We recognise that the environmental health can,

had concerns regarding the events on board,

and I would just like to let the sub -community know that we are listening and taking active approach

after each event. I think that's all from me.

Councillor Gomu, you're on mute. I think you're on mute, Councillor.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:21:29

Thank you, very rare that happens but it's happened a lot in these licencing meetings

Anyway, thank you very much for bringing that to my attention. That's good submission from

you. So we can now come down to the Environment team. Have you got any closing submissions

you'd like to make?

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:21:51

Yes please, Chair. I mean, hopefully part of this will go to answering Mr Patel's query

in directing engagement with the local affected parties. This is in effect the second summer

they've had with live bands on a regular basis, interrupting the court and trying to remember

their home and they lost faith in the previous Premises Licence CDs and unfortunately I feel

that you may be tired with the same brush because they feel that you you will right you wrongly

do what you want as you want as if it's your Premises Licence because it's your business and

And again, that's just an observation and that's taken from conversations I've had with the impacted parties.

The only closing comment I would have for the panel is, again, I go back to reasonable controls in regard to live music from live bands being problematic.

and the reason why the conditions were requested that were on the premises licence last September

are in direct correlation to this matter and I'd ask the panel have due regard to that as they make their decisions.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:23:09

Very good Mr Goodburn, I'd like to say that was really good of you to open up the way you did there

and said you know about the historic stuff maybe having a slight effect. Mr Patel I've gone past

your point really, you know, we sort of need to be one a bit, but I'm going to take a chairman's

privilege. I've got one question I want to ask and that question is, is I noticed in the video

and I never noticed this before that you've got a canopy over the garden area, is that correct?

That's correct, yes.

So it's not an open garden going into the open air, is that canopy goes from one side of the garden to the other?

Applicants - 1:23:56

It's the backspace of the garden where the resident's garden starts, there's a slight gap in air where you'll be able to see the sky.

Okay, thank you.

On the other side of the garden is a brick wall, quite high, however it's a commercial building so it is.

OK, because I asked that question, I'm going to let the environment team come back with that one.

Your microphone's off.

So I was just trying to save you all the sound of my voice for a change.

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 1:24:25

Yeah, the canopy was an investment made by the premises licensee in 2025.

So the canopy there itself has been in situ for the best part of 18 months now.

Canvas canopies look very pretty they do not block out noise unfortunately. There is a premises

licence condition on there in regard to an acoustic barrier which is to be placed on the fence

which is in place you can actually see it in one of the videos and it's up in place

which is adding to again the space itself as Mr Patel made out it's

brick on one side, brick at the rear and then wooden fencing with an acoustic barrier on the flank side that passes on to the noise sensitive receptors.

Part of the issue being that when there is music in there, you've got two reflective surfaces which will artificially amplify the music within the garden confines

and project it towards noise sensitive receptors, i .e. the local residents.

and that's just the nature of the way the garden is made up and you've got two effectively eight -foot brick walls which make very hard, reflective, beautifully reflective surfaces.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:25:47

Yeah, thank you very much for that. Okay, so that concludes the evidence in this matter. Thanks for allowing me to ask you that last question because I was intrigued.

Before I conclude the hearing, is there any party present who does not consider that they have had a fair hearing?

Is everybody happy? Yeah. Environment are you happy? Yeah. Okay. Licencing are you happy?

Very good. I know the team are as well. Right, so the subcommittee will now retire together with a legal advisor and democratic services officer for the matter to be determined.

The subcommittee will come to its decision, which will be sent out to the applicant and all other parties who submitted relevant representations within the time limits and its type.

Set out in the regulations together with details of any right to appeal.

So please could parties other than the members, the legal adviser and democratic services officers, please now leave the room.

But before you do, I say this when most of the time when we've had meetings like this,

it's been a great hearing.

Good to hear everybody's views about this.

And Miss Kupferberg, I'm glad you enjoyed your meeting with us today.

And Mr. Patel for the second time, a little bit more experience, which is good.

And of course, to our steward from the Environment team to come across in another way.

So thank you very much if you'd like to leave so we can get on with that job because as I say, they've got to get your papers out as quick as possible and it's close.

Thank you very much again. Enjoy the rest of the day.

Thank you Chairman.

Thank you.

Thank you Chair. Thank you applicants.

Cllr Dean Field

Conservative

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Cllr Kathy Gibbon

Conservative

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Cllr Phil Gomm

Conservative

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Interactive webcast player

Licensing (Premises) Sub-CommitteeThursday, 20th August 2026 at 3:00pm

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:00:12

1 Confirmation of Chairman

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:21

2 Introductory remarks by the Chairman

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:01:16

Cllr Dean Field - 0:01:24

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:31

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:01:43

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:56

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:02:08

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:16

Sanilla Hussain - Democratic Services Officer - 0:02:35

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:40

Applicants - 0:03:14

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:03:22

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:03:58

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:04:06

3 Apologies for absence

4 Declarations of interest

5 Hearing Procedure Rules

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:07:29

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:08:13

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:08:19

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:09:25

6 The Bricklayers Arms, 19 Walton Terrace, Aylesbury, HP21 7QY

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:11:05

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:23:16

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:25:03

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:25:22

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:25:37

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:25:46

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:25:51

Catriona Crelling - Senior Licensing Officer - 0:26:17

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:26:23

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:26:33

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:27:06

Applicants - 0:27:50

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:31:33

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:32:18

Applicants - 0:32:35

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:33:27

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:33:35

Cllr Dean Field - 0:33:43

Applicants - 0:34:08

Cllr Dean Field - 0:34:20

Applicants - 0:34:28

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:34:54

Cllr Dean Field - 0:35:39

Applicants - 0:35:59

Cllr Dean Field - 0:36:27

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:36:50

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:36:57

Applicants - 0:37:42

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:08

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:38:16

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:21

Applicants - 0:38:37

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:38:57

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:39:08

Applicants - 0:39:38

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:40:02

Applicants - 0:40:17

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:41:15

Applicants - 0:41:56

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:43:35

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:43:42

Applicants - 0:45:50

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:45:59

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:38

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:47:58

Applicants - 0:48:26

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:49:31

Laura Heller - Legal - 0:50:16

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:50:36

Applicants - 0:50:42

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:51:15

Stuart Goodbun - Environmental Protection Officer - 0:51:29

Licensing (Premises) Sub-Committee
Thursday, 20th August 2026 at 3:00pm