Transport, Environment, Communities & Climate Change Select Committee - Tuesday 8 September 2026, 10:00am

Transport, Environment, Communities & Climate Change Select Committee
Tuesday, 8th September 2026 at 10:00am

Speaking:

Start of webcast

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Cllr David Carroll
Cllr David Carroll
Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer

1 Apologies for Absence

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Cllr David Carroll

2 Declarations of Interest

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3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

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Minutes of Previous Meeting

5 Anti-Social Behaviour and Crime

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ASB CRIME Presentation TECCC SC 8.9.26

Cllr Steve Bowles
Sara Turnbull
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Abdul Rahim
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Michael Collins
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr Michael Collins
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Justine Fulford
Cllr David Carroll
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Ed Gemmell
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Cllr Steve Bowles
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Ed Gemmell
Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Anja Schaefer
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support
Cllr David Carroll
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Gregory Smith
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Steve Bowles
Cllr Andy Huxley
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr Gregory Smith
Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP
Cllr Andy Huxley
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr Andy Huxley
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr Andy Huxley
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr Andy Huxley
Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager
Cllr Andy Huxley
Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Steve Bowles
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr David Carroll

6 Heathrow Expansion Programme

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TECCC SC Report September 2026

Cllr Peter Martin
Cllr Thomas Broom
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Thomas Broom
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Thomas Broom
Cllr David Carroll
Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group
Cllr David Carroll
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Ed Gemmell
Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Cllr Ed Gemmell
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Sarah Price - Planning Director, DWD
Ries-William Lamont - Heathrow West Ltd
Ries-William Lamont - Director of Stakeholder Engagement, Heathrow West Ltd
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Gregory Smith
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Peter Martin
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Cllr Thomas Broom
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Cllr Thomas Broom
Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd
Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group
Cllr David Carroll
Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr David Carroll

4 Public Questions

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Public Questions.
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Cllr David Carroll

7 Local Nature Recovery Strategy

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LNRS report for TECCC 8.9.26

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Nicola Thomas
Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Claire Bayley - Chief Planning Officer
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Ed Gemmell
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Justine Fulford
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Cllr Justine Fulford
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Anja Schaefer
Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager
Cllr Anja Schaefer
Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Gregory Smith
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Claire Bayley - Chief Planning Officer
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Adekunle Osibogun
Cllr David Carroll

8 Work Programme

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TECCC Work Programme 26-27 for 8.9.26

Cllr Anja Schaefer
Cllr Gregory Smith
Cllr David Carroll
Cllr Ed Gemmell
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Cllr Justine Fulford
Cllr David Carroll

9 Date of Next Meeting

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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:00:00

All right, morning everybody.

Welcome to the Transport, Environment, Communities and Climate Change Select Committee.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:00:30

Welcome, I hope it's going to be an interesting meeting and thanks for everybody taking part.

Apologies. Sally.

Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:00:38

Thank you Chairman, we've had apologies from Councillors Tim Dixon and Clive Harris.

1 Apologies for Absence

And Councillor Collins needs to leave the meeting early.

2 Declarations of Interest

Cllr David Carroll - 0:00:45

Okay, thank you that. Decorations of interest on looking around to anyone? No? Ed? No?

Okay.

Comments on the previous meeting and the minutes.

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Any comments on that?

We got one later for another item, so that's going to be later on.

Can we move on to item five, antisocial behaviour crime?

5 Anti-Social Behaviour and Crime

Can I pass over the committee cabinet member Steve Boltz?

Great, thanks very much Chairman. The report before you is on the subject of crime and

Cllr Steve Bowles - 0:01:35

ASB. This report shows how by working with the Safer Bucks partnership to reduce neighbourhood

crime and tackle ASB when making our neighbourhood safer, it also shows that we're working to

protect the most vulnerable people so that they feel heard and supported by working with

partners to keep vulnerable adults safe.

Regarding ASB, the current issues that we're seeing relate to persistent street -based antisocial

behaviour in town centre locations alongside a smaller number of location -specific concerns

involving housing, youth disorder, vacant premises,

pony and track racing, and vehicle nuisance.

Key message that I'd like to get across is that we work

with partners to deliver coordinated long -term solutions

for communities affected by persistent ASB.

Timely and consistent reporting by residents

and community members is essential to record incidents

and secure supporting evidence.

Now can I, I should have done this before, can I introduce the team that have come in with me.

We've got Abdul who's the Community Safety Manager, Sarah Turnbull, Director,

and I've got Chief Inspector Alex Ash from Thames Valley Police,

and Inspector Harry Geeneck from Thames Valley Police.

So it's a combined effort today.

Sorry?

It's a combined effort.

It's a combined effort, yeah.

Which is how it should be, is it not?

So I don't know if Abdul or any other team members

would like to say anything on the report.

Yeah, I'll just say a few words of context

then hand over to colleagues to talk free the presentation.

Sara Turnbull - 0:03:27

So I'm the director for strategy and community support in adults and health.

And one of my services looks after community safety.

And antisocial behaviour for us is an extremely important priority that's reflected both within

our Safer Bucks strategy, which is our partnership strategy across the whole of the county.

and it's also reflected in our corporate plan.

So in the council's corporate plan,

the work around antisocial behaviour really fits

with two of the priorities in particular,

the work we're doing around creating thriving communities,

but also really importantly,

supporting vulnerable residents.

So it absolutely is a key priority for us,

and we recognise that antisocial behaviour

can cause significant distress for the individuals

who are at the receiving end of that,

also for communities as well.

And it's something that you will see for the presentation

and hear about how we tackle that together,

because it really is an absolute team effort

with the police, but also with a whole range of partners

which you'll hear about in the presentation.

And it's only through that joint working

that we can actually make a difference

in tackling this issue.

So I'll finish there and just, I don't know if...

Just briefly, if that's okay as well,

just to reinforce that bit.

Antitouche behaviour is also a clear priority

for the 10th Valley Police

and one within the Napier Policing Team.

It's one of our three main areas that we do focus on.

But what we have done, particularly more, I think,

over the last couple of years,

is really strengthened that collaboration with our partners.

We've structured our governance better to have an oversight and hold ourselves to account

more which I think is really helping us to deliver.

We are seeing a lot more use of powers that are available through information sharing,

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:05:30

developing our staff so they are capable, they understand where they can use those and

when best to do so.

And that real focus around particularly some of our town centres to make sure we understand

that if they feel safe in those town centres,

it's going to improve their standard of life.

So we understand that.

And it is definitely something we're

committed to delivering on the longer term.

So definitely part of our strategy,

and we're working really, really closely with our partners

around that.

Good.

So we're going to move on to some sort of presentation.

Sound right?

OK.

Thank you.

I'll be talking about the content of the slides.

Abdul Rahim - 0:06:14

So if I could just ask to move to slide three, I think it is.

Somebody doing slides?

Thank you.

So the presentation's going to be in two parts.

So I'm going to be talking first about putting some context

around what antisocial behaviour is,

what the legal definitions are, the roles and responsibilities

of the different agencies that are involved in antisocial

behaviour, what the local picture is for us in Buckinghamshire

in terms of our reports, and how we respond to ASB

or multi -agency working.

And then I'm going to talk a little bit about a case study

where we resolved quite a longstanding complex ASB

issue with the support of our partners.

And then I'll hand over to Inspector Geenig,

who is going to talk about the police response

and how we work together as well.

Next slide, please.

Thank you.

So what is antisocial behaviour?

For the legislation from the Antisocial Behaviour Crime

policing act there's two definitions for anti -social behaviour and it depends on whether

it's in a public setting or a housing setting which definition is applicable. The first

definition in a public setting it has to cause harassment, alarm or distress to any person

and the second one for a housing setting is that if it causes nuisance or annoyance to

individual in relation to that person's residential premises. Now the reason that

there is two different definitions is that the government realises that within

a housing setting within your own home if you're experiencing ASB the impact is

far greater so the threshold of nuisance and annoyance is far lower than that of

harassment, alarm or distress if it's in a public setting. That's why we've got

the difference there. So within a private setting it's a much lower threshold for

to be regarded as antisocial behaviour.

But the other important thing to note about both definitions

is it's very different to other types of offending behaviour.

When you look at the legislation for all the types

of criminal behaviour, whether it's

criminal damage, assault, theft, the statutory definitions

of those types of behaviour actually

identifies what the prohibited act is,

like taking property that belongs to a somebody,

somebody causing injury to them.

Whereas for this, the definition depends on the experience

of the victims.

So it is very much victim -centred.

So the victim has to tell us that they're

experiencing harassment or feeling

annoyed in order for us to regard it

as antisocial behaviour.

Then that moves on to how we record ASB.

So up there, we've got the three recording categories

that the police use.

We also use those as well.

So we've got personal ASB.

that if it impacts on an individual or a community,

if it's directed at them specifically.

Nuisance behaviour, which is behaviour that can impact

on our community as a whole.

It could be groups congregating, loud noises

that like cars racing around.

And then you've got the environmental ASB as well,

which is graffiti, fly tipping, that sort of behaviour

which impacts on public spaces.

Now, I've got a quote there from Baroness Newell of the Victims

Commissioner, who undertook a nationwide review

of antisocial behaviour back in 2019.

She used the term low -level crime.

And what she was stating in her report

was that ASB shouldn't be dismissed as low -level crime

because it can escalate to serious offending.

And that's because it has a profound impact

on the victims.

Next slide please.

Thank you.

So, here I've just got a visualisation of how ASB

can escalate to criminal behaviour.

So there is a where you've got low level behaviour,

visible disorder, noise, intimidation,

nuisance out on the street.

If it's not dealt with, the repeat victimisation of it

can have a cumulative impact on the victims.

And that in itself, if it's not addressed

and the behaviour is not dealt with by agencies

appropriately, can lead to more serious criminal offending,

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 0:11:08

such as criminal damage, assaults, drug supply,

or serious public disorder, which

is why it's quite important for us

to work with our partners to try and resolve it.

Next slide, please.

So in terms of the roles and responsibilities,

there is a legal duty on a number of agencies

to do all they can to reduce crime and disorder,

including antisocial behaviour and behaviour which adversely

affects the environment.

And that's under section 17 of the Crime and Disorder Act.

And the bodies that have this statutory responsibility

are the policing body, which includes Tame Valley

Police and the Office of the Police and Crime Commissioner,

ourselves in local authority.

And it isn't just for community safety.

It's a local authority responsibility

in all of the local authorities' functions

to consider reducing crime and disorder

and anti -social behaviour.

And then there's fire and rescue authority, the health authority,

and probation.

So those five bodies have this statutory duty placed upon them

by this piece of legislation.

within Buckinghamshire, that responsibility is overseen by the Safer

Buckinghamshire Board and that meets quarterly with senior leaders from these

organisations meeting regularly along with other organisations that

impact on crime and disorder and ASB and they set the priorities and the

direction for us across the county, they set targets and we have a

strategic five -year strategic plan which sets the priorities and they oversee

this to ensure that we're meeting our statutory duty in reducing crime

disorder and ASB across the county. Next slide please. And this is just a list of

the partners and agencies that respond to ASB and who we work with. It's not an

exhaustive list. It does depend on the type of ASB that we're dealing with.

As I mentioned before, it does,

ASB is dependent on the victims experience. So it could be anything. It could be if it's an

environmental based issue or it could be a neighbour dispute where there's other vulnerabilities

or mental health concerns and this is where we look at safeguarding, social services get involved.

If it's out and about in a public place, we will engage with waste services, environmental health.

We get referrals from councillors, town and parish councils,

the community boards.

If it's vehicle related, then we will work with parking services and highways.

And those internal council teams, when you look at the external organisations,

our biggest partner is the police, which is why the police have joined us today.

But also housing providers as well.

So housing providers have a legal duty to resolve ASB complaints

that their tenants experience or cause.

So we work very, very closely with housing providers as well.

And the other organisations you see on that list are ones

that depend on the type of case that we're dealing with,

whether we'd engage with them or not as part of the solution.

Next slide, please.

So this is the local picture.

Now, this chart displays the number of cases that we receive

within community safety.

The number of cases that we've received between 2025 and 2026.

When we move over to the police data, you'll see that the police receive considerably more reports than we do

because they tend to be the primary recipient for calls in relation to ASB.

But we do get some referrals as well.

So in 2025, between 2025 and 26, I should say,

we received 812 reports of antisocial behaviour.

Now, a lot of those do not get escalated

to where a case is opened because we would refer them to,

in a lot of cases, to the appropriate agency or service

to respond to it if it's, for example, it could be the police

or it could be parks and open spaces or parking services

if it's related to vehicle nuisance.

So it depends on the type of report we're receiving

to who it's referred to.

Now our team within community safety do deal

with the more complex cases

that require a more coordinated response

where they will open a case.

Now out of the reports that we received during

that time period, we opened 242 cases and 81 %

of those were successfully resolved.

Sorry to interrupt.

Do you mind just telling us what cuckooing

of vulnerable person is?

Sorry, I didn't.

Okay, so cuckooing on vulnerable persons is where we've got somebody who's

vulnerable living in a property and it's taken over by other individuals.

Bit like a cuckoo taking over somebody else, taking over another nest.

So they would manipulate that individual because there's vulnerabilities,

there are mental health issues, or there might be elderly.

But they would take over the property and use it for their own purposes,

is causing ASB and disorder and undertaking criminal activity

from that address.

And that's where we work quite closely with the police

to try and resolve those issues.

But looking at the case list, you'll

see that most of our cases that we get

relate to verbal harassment, intimidation reports

from members of the public.

And the second highest is drugs, substance misuse.

So that would be drinking, alcohol related, and drug

dealing as well.

And then we've got, as you mentioned, cuckooing

and the whole range, whole list of different types of behaviours

that we do record as well.

Next slide, please.

So this is the process that we follow

to reduce antisocial behaviour in Buckinghamshire.

We've got a joint multi -agency protocol

which helps coordinate our response

and ensures that wherever you are in the county,

if you make a report, you get the same consistent level

of service from any of our agencies.

And that's coordinated through a multi -agency group

called the Antisocial Behaviour Action Group,

or ASBAG for short.

And we have three monthly meetings,

three ASBAGs held monthly,

one in the north, one in South Bookson,

one in High Wycombe, with complex cases of ASB

that require more than one agency to respond to it,

are bought and they're discussed by the different team members that are there to decide upon

how best to resolve the complaint.

And it's monitored through that group as well to ensure that it is successfully resolved.

And the process that's followed is the reports received by the agency and it's assessed.

If it needs more than one agency to respond to it, then yet it will be listed for the

next ASBAC unless the matter is urgent. If the matter is urgent, then an interim meeting

will be called quite quickly to decide upon what action needs to be taken. We do triage

cases. We look at whether they're low risk, medium risk, or high risk, and that's dependent

on the victim. And obviously, medium and high risk cases are treated far more seriously

than low -risk cases.

And where there's vulnerabilities involved

with individuals, we do refer to the appropriate safeguarding

team, whether it's adults or children's as well.

I think the last thing to make you aware of in terms of cases

as well is different to other types of offending.

Victims in ASP cases have a legal right

to have their cases reviewed and their complaints reviewed.

So they can ask for an ASB case review if they're dissatisfied with how their case has been

cases been

cases being dealt with by agencies if they feel unhappy about it

We've got application process again the ASB team coordinate that

And if it meets our local threshold, we will coordinate and arrange a formal meeting

Which independently reviews how the case is case has been dealt with to ensure that everything that's been done

should have been done has been done, and if it hasn't, then an action plan is developed

to make sure that we learn from it and any issues are resolved to the satisfaction of

the victim.

Next slide, please.

And these are some of the tools and powers that we use.

So I've divided them up to informal and formal powers.

Informal ones tend to be like advising individuals,

making them aware of their behaviour, mediation as well.

So mediation is a big one where we try to get parties together

to discuss what the issues are and come to a mutually agreed

resolution between parties.

And then there's voluntary contracts and agreements

we try and encourage as well.

The formal powers, if we try to escalate to formal powers,

we've been to court before.

and the courts are quite strict on this,

unless you've tried the informal approach first,

they're not going to be very happy, the courts.

And they would view it as disproportionate,

and they have done as well in the past.

So we do need to try the lower powers first

before we start escalating matters

to the use of formal tools and powers, which

is why in some cases, it looks like to the victims

that things are moving slowly or we're not

doing what we should do.

but we are working in the background,

but trying to use the informal powers

and get compliance from the perpetrators

before we move to the formal processes.

In terms of the formal processes,

the community protection warning,

community protection notice process

is one that we do use quite successfully,

and we do use that very, very frequently.

We've used that for building,

against commercial building owners,

and in some cases, residents as well.

And what they do is they prohibit certain behaviours

that all require individuals to do certain things.

And if they breach the warning notices,

then again, you can take them to court for that,

and they can be prosecuted at court.

Criminal behaviour orders are obtained on conviction.

And again, we work with the police for that.

So if an individual is arrested for an offence,

if they've committed antisocial behaviour,

the Crown Prosecution Service and the police

can apply for a criminal behaviour order on conviction.

and that would restrict that individual's behaviour and stop them from doing certain things.

An injunction, we've got two injunctions out as a council.

In the Wickham area, one for persistent begging and one for antisocial behaviour in our car parks.

Individuals do breach those and where they do breach them, we do have to go back to court, which can be quite a lengthy process.

We've used premises closure several times as well between ourselves and the police,

again on retail and commercial properties and the police quite often use them against

in residential settings where there's anti -social behaviour and crime.

Tenancy action, that's one for the housing associations where they can use eviction powers

against tenants for causing anti -social behaviour.

and the last one I've got on the list is Public Space Protection Orders which

you're all probably very familiar with. We had a big review done a couple of

years ago now and we revised our orders across the county. We've got nine now in

operation across the whole of Buckinghamshire and recently we took one out for

pony and trap racing in the South Books area which has been enforced by the

lease. Next slide please. And this is an example of great working between

ourselves and partners where we resolved a complex long -standing ASB issue so

some of you might be familiar with this. Since 2022 we had a lawful encampment in

nearby school and counsellors.

We had an individual who was living

at the roadside in a caravan and built up a camp, which

was causing issues.

He was lighting fires.

There was a school nearby.

He's been aggressive to passersby and other residents.

And the police were getting numerous complaints.

We were getting complaints from residents and community as

well.

It was quite a complex issue to deal with.

The individual himself had vulnerabilities,

mental health issues.

There was substance misuse concerns as well.

And there was legal issues over the land and the ownership

of the land and what action we could take.

So he'd engaged with services several times over the years,

moved away, but kept coming back.

So to try and resolve the matter in the long term,

And we pulled together a multi -agency working group

involving the police ourselves, legal services,

for making every adult matter team who provided support.

Substance misuse was addressed to the One Recovery Books team

and waste services as well.

We reviewed with legal services all the tools and powers

that were available to us.

We offered support, followed the whole process.

The individual didn't comply.

We applied to court under the Criminal Justice Act,

obtained a legal order giving us the power to clear the site and prevent any further

encampments from being placed back on the land.

And with the support of the police, the individual was taken away from the site.

Eventually he did come into supported accommodation, which was the first time in years that he'd

engaged with services to that extent.

And since we obtained that order, he's not been back on site.

So it's been over a year now, and he's not returned to site.

And as far as I understand, he's not been there.

We've not had any reports of him taking up

encampment anywhere else.

He's been engaging with services as well.

So it was a really great success, that.

And it involved a whole range of services.

Took a while for us to get there.

But that's the sort of cases where it's complex,

and we do lead on and bring together

our partners to try and resolve things in the long term.

I'll hand over to Inspector Geernick then.

Thank you very much. Thank you everyone for having me here to talk today. If you go on

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:26:13

to the next slide for me please, that'll be fine. And the next one please. Thank you.

So what we've got up on screen at the moment is Thames Lake Police's new ASP action plan

that was launched not so long ago and that is a force -wide plan we've established around

how we're going to better identify social behaviour, how we're going to understand it

better, how we're going to engage with our communities better, use data to understand

what's going on better, focus on actually how we're going to combat it, who we're going

to combat it with in our partners,

how we're gonna better support those who are victims

of antisocial behaviour, and then at the end of that

to kind of complete the circle,

how we're gonna really communicate that

and share that back with the communities as a whole

to better present what we're doing.

So if I talk through this a little bit more

in terms of understanding antisocial behaviour better,

I think we're in a really good position currently

with the neighbourhood team, certainly in Buckinghamshire,

in terms of the number of officers

that I certainly have under my command and police community support officers who are able to go out

there, speak more with the community, have the have you say events, be more present at events,

and just generally be more out in the community speaking with people to understand what's going

on. We share a lot through a number of our public meetings about how people can communicate with the

police if they're scared of repercussions using Crime Stoppers, our different online portal

mechanisms that we have in place, we share those a lot. The use of 101 as a phone service

and obviously 999 as an emergency. So we share a lot of that to ensure everyone knows the

routes that they can report these to us. I think a common misconception that I have or

challenge when speaking with members of communities actually they think, I don't need to report

this, the police should be aware of it. Well, what we're trying to lay down is the importance

of those reports. Because we only have a finite amount of resources, we need to be in the

right place and at the right times.

So we need to understand when it's happening

and what's happening.

So we use that data with some of the analysts that we have

that we're fortunate enough to have now

and some of the kind of online computer programmes

that we have as well to understand

where is this antisocial behaviour happening,

what time is it happening,

and it helps to plot it up on graphs

so that we and the officers in my team even

can use that as a tool to understand,

well in my community, where do I need to be

and when do I need to be there?

Should I be going and speaking with those members

of the public who live down there, you know, in terms of when I want to be updating the

community, our TV Alerts, which is an email automated service that people can sign up

to, we can send it to specific areas.

So we can be very specific with who we want to communicate those updates to the work we're

doing too.

In terms of focusing on the prevention and problem solving piece of this, I would say

that, as Abdul's mentioned here, the collaborative work has really, I feel like, improved for

last two years that we've had in Buckinghamshire. I think that as a whole when I had a bit of

a reflection on some of our data and stance that Buckinghamshire, if you took us into

all the Thames Lake Police, we use our powers 14 % more than we have done and that is the

second highest in the force. So we are being robust on social behaviour, the powers that

Abdul mentioned through there, we use them together, we collaborate, we understand and

And I actually think from a neighbour team's perspective,

I have a lot of student officers.

So actually some of the skills that Abdul's team possesses

in those community safety officers

and the ASB officers really help us to give really effective

and clear community protection warnings and notices

when we use those powers,

which helps us to enforce and better prevent

and support people in the community.

So that all comes back around full circle

in terms of communicating.

Yearly the data is published by the Police and Crime Commissioner.

That information we put on there, it's under the data hub if you search that online for

anybody listening back on this, you can find that information there.

And in terms of my team and what we do as a neighbour team in Buckinghamshire, we will

regularly update onto our Temsway Police Facebook page or other social pages or mediums or TV

alerts to share what we're doing.

And we use our police .uk page as well to understand actually

what the priorities are in our communities.

We do quarterly surveys that we then set those priorities,

and we address those specifically

in terms of telling the community,

this is what we've done to address those issues.

And if it's something that isn't so,

we're going to keep working on it.

Because that is commonplace as well,

because a lot of these are entrenched issues

with anti -social behaviour.

I'll go on to the next slide if that's okay, please.

So this next slide here talks a little bit about our antisocial behaviour data.

I think the heat map does a fantastic example of demonstrating

that town centres are those areas where we see the most antisocial behaviour.

You can see those highlighted on the map from Buckingham North down through

Ellsbury, Wickham, you see Chesham on one side there and then coming all the way down to sort of

Farnham, Iver, Taplow area there. So it's something that we've led against and I'll speak about,

if you were kind enough to go onto the next slide, in respect of Safer Streets being a project that

we've worked on that we've been really well supported by a number of our partners. In

£280 ,000 worth of funding from the Police and Crime Commissioner.

That is a three year period of funding that goes on until March 2028 and what that has

delivered is what I'm going to talk about here but in essence it's delivered an intensive

focus into our town centres to combat anti -social behaviour, retail crime and actually just

make those town centres feel safer.

The clue is in the lane really for that.

So in terms of what we've been able to deliver since we've had that in place,

if you look through on the screen there, we've been able to deliver better collaboration.

So as part of the funding, we were able to, in Wickham specifically,

where I'm sort of responsible for, we had Wickham Homeless Connexion,

One Recovery Bucks, worked really closely with us.

We were able to fund some of their activities to understand

what the issues that underpin that antisocial behaviour.

So our approach is we know that we can't arrest our way out of problems as the police and

that it requires that collaboration with our partners, but actually understanding what

the issue is as well.

So for instance, working with the Abdoor's Community Safety Team, with the street wardens,

we've better enabled our communication in town centres.

The CCTV teams have been absolutely essential for us with identifying offenders of anti -social

behaviour, but actually using some of the tools like our mobile CCTV as well to catch people

in the act of committing ASB because part of the challenge that we have is people don't

report things that are happening, so for us to actually evidence it to the required level

to then be able to challenge and enforce that behaviour, we do need those tools in place

and it has had a really, really big difference.

In terms of what this Safer Streets has delivered then since October 2025,

we've had a large number of officers in those town centres.

I'm really proud to say that in Buckinghamshire we have the highest patrolled on foot town centres in all of Thames Valley.

And I leave a pause there because I think that should not be underestimated for the impact that's having in both High Wycombe and Aylesbury.

They are top one and two and that that means something in my team

Essentially with my knowing else we as well really really proud of that and it's something we continue to do

I've got one officer who's celebrating in a team's chat just yesterday about having amassed a thousand hours over their career being on foot in

the town centre they understand the value of that and

The way in which that works is that we have hot spots which are focused around our antisocial behaviour data

And that's the important part because we are using that data to understand where those issues are in the town centre

And we're being there at the right time on foot not just driving past with being a visible presence with being a deterrent

And I think the extra level that we've unlocked is working with the street wardens who then support that activity

Who are in the same communication channels online as us so we know when there's a particular person in a certain place

we can address that. And that has been incredibly impactive.

And where we've managed to diversify some of this work is actually supporting retailers

as well, who are the businesses who operate in the town centres.

The same offenders who commit the antisocial behaviour are the ones who commit the retail

crime. We've doubled our positive outcomes around antisocial behaviour because we've

seen a massive increase against retail crime as well in terms of taking people to court

and seeking justice.

Did I have a question over there, and I see.

Thank you.

It's been great, and I'm really interested.

But we have a problem up in the north of Buckinghamshire.

We don't have a huge police presence.

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:35:46

If we have any antisocial behaviour,

it has to go down to Aylesbury.

We can't report up there.

And we do have antisocial behaviour

in Winslow, Buckinghamshire, and the north of Butts,

as you can see on the map.

So is there anything we can do about that,

to actually have an easier way of reporting it,

rather than having to come all the way down to Aylesbury,

because people don't do that.

Yeah, I can take that.

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:36:10

So absolutely, part of the approach

we've taken since that period last year,

prior to that, to get the focus in our main town centres,

we had to draw the neighbourhood officers

from the more rural areas, which was leaving as exposed.

So we have taken a different tack.

So we stopped that model and have had more intense specific

offices in those town centres leaving the neighbourhood offices more in those rural areas.

So yes, there will be offices within the north,

within Buckingham who are dedicated and focused to this.

What we've been able to do is reduce the abstraction of them to come into

Aylesbury, come into other areas to support.

Because the large towns are obviously a driver for demand, but we must keep our officers

and response on the more rural areas.

They've got to be visible.

Their expectation is absolutely the same.

What Harry's been able to do is put a strategy in around ownership of ASB and retail crime.

So those teams up in Buckingham will also own those crimes and they will be responsible

for delivering that.

I then hold a monthly governance meeting of which we've got one this afternoon

where I hold them to account around their own statistics and delivery in

that model. So I recognise that absolutely we aren't just talking about

our main town centres but the model we've taken has enabled those officers

to remain within their neighbourhood teams to focus on those and it is

everyone is held to account across the county around that.

I believe we only got one page left at this presentation, so we'll have questions after

that.

Is that okay?

Hurry on, please.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:38:00

On to the next slide, please.

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:38:04

And just these are some statistics here which kind of echo what I was elaborating on there.

Really proud of in terms of the crime reporting reductions.

And so these are based around our reductions of crime in those town centres where we've

had this focus.

And you can see it's all green arrows going down for those different crime types, most

notably personal robbery offences, I think public order offences as well, and sexual

offending in Aylesbury in particular was one where we saw a marked decrease in some of

the working activity.

And then onto the left, looking at kind of a consequential increase,

a deep increase, sorry, in positive outcomes of us taking people to court for

retail crime, which as I say, overlaps very heavily with antisocial behaviour.

And that's something that we've seen across the board with an introduction of

specific officers onto a retail crime team that have really helped to drive that.

So there's a real dedication from us to support retailers who we knew,

because antisocial behaviour doesn't just affect individuals

living in homes or people walking the streets.

It affects people who go to work,

who work in these places and town centres

who are trying to provide a service

and find themselves confronted

with this kind of behaviour and crime.

So that's been really, really positive.

And I think that's all just like that.

Well, I'm impressed by what's going on here at the moment.

I mean, the working together thing is working clearly.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:39:33

Can I ask a question first?

I was on the bench in Wickham, in Maddy Strait, and crucial to a lot of this anti -social behaviour

was probation services.

You obviously still got a real close relationship with the probation service?

Yes, absolutely.

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:39:52

We do work really, really close with them, and I think that you will probably be acutely

aware, as we are, of upcoming changes that the government are enforcing around the timescales

of people and sentencing act changes.

So for us, we have to work really close to probation

to manage those people in our communities

as effectively as possible.

And that's where Abdul was talking about

those antisocial behaviour orders

like criminal behaviour orders.

We're trying to put those in place

so that these people who,

perhaps you might say frequent flyers into that system,

we are working with them in a constructive way

to not only prevent that,

but put positive conditions to say,

look, we recognise that a lot of this

is perhaps being driven by addiction

or other vulnerabilities you may have, how better can we support that?

And putting that into writing really does help to enforce it.

Questions?

Cllr David Carroll - 0:40:43

Mike was first and we'll work along, so I'm taking names.

Thank you, Jackie.

This is as brief as possible, but I'd like to understand what dealing with ASB has on

Cllr Michael Collins - 0:40:55

the total resources available through ASB, through anti -social behaviour.

Some months ago, I was walking through the high street in Ellesbury, and I was approached

in a very aggressive manner by a gentleman, I think in his early 30s, who was obviously

under the influence of alcohol and possibly drugs as well.

He wasn't begging, he was demanding money.

He came up with physical, very, very aggressive, and he was approaching many, many people,

including some very senior people, I'm senior, I'm one of my other, of my generation, pushing them.

And I felt obliged to call the police and they came along and there were two officers and also

there was a support officer there. He was both aggressive to the police that arrived and I

I was, literally I was taken as a witness,

but I think that incident took about two hours

of police time,

which is demanding of your limited resources

and we know what problems we have.

And I wonder how all this fits in

to the total resources you have available,

dealing with such unacceptable incidents.

So that kind of paints a real picture

of the issues we face in town centres.

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:42:17

That is why we have to, as the police,

work really closely with our partners.

So one of the sibling junctions

that Abdul was actually talking about

is for an individual who behaves in a similar way

that we face in High Wycombe.

And so using that kind of intervention

helps them to manage the resources that we have better

to be able to deliver in those areas.

So as the neighbourhood team,

one of our three priorities is antisocial behaviour.

So I think it's absolutely correct

that those officers were there supporting you for that period of time.

And it's without knowing the individual fully, it could be that that forms part of a bigger

picture where we're trying to implement one of those orders to better manage that person's

behaviour.

Cllr Michael Collins - 0:43:00

If you accept resources 100 % of the time you're doing such a situation.

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:43:10

If I could take that, I think that's very hard to estimate only because I think the

boundary between anti -social behaviour and crime is blurred, you know, and they do cross

over.

But what I would say is for my neighbour teams across the county, it's a clear, one of our

three priorities.

I expect them to spend a reasonable amount of time on ASP.

That is a clear expectation.

I think it is the right thing to do because actually as Abdul's already laid out, quite

often lower level anti -social behaviour incidents will lead to crime.

So it's actually right that we deal with that lower level intervention to avoid the escalation

because it will only generate more demand for us in the future.

So I feel it's an investment in us to stop that escalation.

Can I just add to that?

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 0:44:02

The advice that we get as well is that using lower level interventions early on uses less resources.

It's far cheaper to issue somebody with a warning notice, a written letter, than it is to go through the whole legal process and take them to court.

So, in terms of early interventions, we will always try those cheaper, more cost -effective

early interventions than letting matters escalate to the point where you have to spend thousands

of pounds going to court.

Because as local authorities, we don't have those resources to take that many people to

court.

So, we always try the early intervention and the informal tools first.

So we'll work along here.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:44:41

I think, believe everybody had a question.

So, Justin, next.

Thank you.

And I just want to start by saying, in Chesham,

Cllr Justine Fulford - 0:44:49

we have seen a massive improvement and, you know,

improvement in confidence in the public because of your

operations over the summer.

It's been, it's really appreciated.

So I wanted to ask about the protection warnings and protection,

community protection warnings, community protection notices.

We've got several empty buildings in the town centre.

We have others on the outskirts.

They're subject to vandalism.

Do you, I know that this has been reported and I know you're taking action.

Do the police issue these community, are you aware of it?

Is it something you're going to maybe issue a community protection warnings to the owners of the buildings?

That was one.

And I think public space protection orders, I've had complaints from the neighbourhood sergeant that in the car parks the signs are too small.

I think he wants them bigger.

I think they can use that, the PSPOs, quite effectively.

but they say some of the people who are causing the antisocial behaviour

complain that they didn't know that they were in a public space protection order.

I mean they should have also known that it's unacceptable to behave in an

antisocial way whether it's in a PSPO or not, but that is the request.

He would like larger signs in the car parks in Chesham and elsewhere.

But also I became involved in local politics 22 years ago because of a

serious case of antisocial behaviour, which

was ruining my life.

I got it resolved.

The antisocial behaviour team were absolutely brilliant,

and there was some very new legislation which came out

about the same time, which really helped us resolve the

issue quite quickly, I felt.

Six months.

I've had a case which has come to me over the summer, where

somebody's been suffering.

Abdul and I have been writing about it.

The lady's been suffering for five years at least, maybe six.

And I've noticed, I mean, I've supported,

because of the success I had 20 -odd years ago,

people come to me.

And whether I'm a counsellor or not,

they've come to me for advice.

And I've guided them.

Now, this case, she's come to me because I'm a counsellor.

And I haven't really had much casework

with antisocial behaviour, or if I have,

it's been very quickly dealt with.

This case is not the same.

And one of the missing aspects of it

is the provision of a CCTV by the partners.

That is not happening in this particular case.

The victim is very elderly.

She doesn't have the means to monitor CCTV.

yet the police and the housing association,

Abdul's going to come back to me about,

I know there's an update which you're going to give to me,

but it seems to me that level of support,

I mean this victim doesn't know how to help,

she's done everything correctly in her view,

and I've seen it.

I don't know why that level of additional support isn't there.

It's quite serious.

It seems to be a gap.

Over the 20 -odd years that I've been supporting people

with antisocial behaviour, that has been something

which has been provided to victims,

but in this case it's not.

And I think that's just a hole in what we can offer.

I think that probably you could take this up after the meeting because that's obviously something really important to you

Cllr David Carroll - 0:48:48

So it's never individual one. So I think it's um

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 0:48:56

Is that okay to yeah, so there was three questions every question. Yeah, so the the final one as you said chair

I'll I'll discuss that with you afterwards at council full

But if that's okay because it does relate to a specific case in a specific individual

And it's not fair on them if that if I discuss that in an open forum like this

In terms of community protection warnings and notices with regards to empty buildings,

we do need the complaint from residents.

As I mentioned before, in order to progress ASB matters, we need to show that that threshold

has been met that is causing harassment, alarm and distress.

So the behaviour associated with that building, we need to have evidence of that before we

can escalate to community protection warnings and notices.

But in order to use those, again, we have to try the informal approaches first.

so we've got to identify who the building owner is.

The A's with them, try and encourage them voluntarily

to make those buildings safe and prevent the ASB.

Once we've tried all that, then we can do that.

What I would encourage is for those residents

that are complaining to yourself,

if you ask them at the end of the slide,

there's some links there, there's reporting links there.

If they could report it to ourselves,

then I can ask the team to look into that for them.

The next one was around PSPOs and in Chesham.

I think we'll have a discussion with the police

and the signage.

But the signage is there.

Once the signage is up, then it's

down to the individuals to comply with it.

It's a bit like car park notices.

In a car park, you can't use the defence.

I didn't see the sign there.

It's there, and the prohibitions are in place.

I'll have a chat with the police about that,

and we can maybe discuss that with the neighbourhood sergeant.

Thank you.

Ed?

Great.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:50:36

Thank you very much.

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 0:50:39

So a number of different, probably short questions at the beginning.

So on the partner organisations, we don't seem to mention schools.

And just a note, we've only got a few town councils and

we've got well over 100 parish councils.

And I think we should always mention parish councils in every document

we put out and they're our biggest set of partners.

And on that, what do we do with parish councils?

Do we actually go in and talk to them?

Cuz I don't think in Hazelmere we've ever had a talk.

I mean, I may be wrong.

Apologies, Harry, if you have, but I don't remember one.

And we're a relatively big parish council, and we've got 150 or so of them.

Surely we should get into chatting to them about what's happening in their areas and

all that sort of thing.

On the, I'm just gonna bring it up here, yes.

All the agreements that we've got here, there will certainly be criticism across

press and through certain quarters and that's about whether those things are soft

options and do they really do anything.

So I'm interested to know if they do really do anything,

how do we make them work?

Is there any penalty related to an agreement and that they sign it how do these things work?

And that probably comes on to then in relation to Middlesbrough

When they were in terms of the effectiveness of the police operation in Middlesbrough

It was talked about that they do a lot of this

inverted commas soft stuff at the beginning the agreements references and all that sort of thing

But the figures are showing that those people who have low -level crime who don't actually get pushed through the system as a criminal

that it's only one in 20 who reoffend.

Whereas once they get pushed through the system,

it's one out of three reoffend.

I mean, do we know about that?

Is that a similar thing here?

I suppose the one other thing on this data,

and I don't know if you did this on purpose,

whoever was doing the data, there's

no references to sort of ethnicity, gender, age,

level of deprivation, all these things, which I'm assuming

are indicators within this.

And if they're not, I suppose it'd be interesting to know.

And that's it.

Thanks.

So I'll be happy to answer about the lower level things.

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:52:37

So in terms of those antisocial behaviour powers, the easiest way I describe it to anyone ever

is that you think about it as a set of stairs, you've got to walk up.

We start at the bottom and we build our way to the top.

Certainly in terms of those Acceptable Behaviour Contracts or ASB warning letters we might

issue to people, a good example I could use is recently over the summer holidays we faced

a challenge in Wickhamtown Centre at the bus station with young people causing antisocial

behaviour there. We weren't in a position at that time to work with the schools, but

what we have are school liaison officers within Thamesway Police, and we work with them to

identify who those people are, and we would work with those schools would they be open.

So we absolutely see them as a key partner because it's about engaging the parents as

well at the same time. As part of that operation and work, we understood we actually issued

I think around sort of nearly 20 Acceptable Behaviour contracts to young people in the

town centre and the idea of those is as much that we engage those other involved parties

like the parents when we issue those and we have that conversation and say that this is

the behaviour that you're suspected of conducting, this is why it's unacceptable and this is

what we expect of you.

And as you say, one in 20, if we've issued 20 of those, I'd like to think we're in a

position where only one of those people might be reoffending and we certainly do take more

robust action if we do need to in those circumstances.

Cabinet member I think believes,

do you want to come in Steve?

Cllr David Carroll - 0:54:07

Could I just briefly, thank you, sorry,

just briefly on that.

I think the data does support that absolutely.

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:54:14

I think, you know, particularly when we're talking

young people, if we can avoid them entering

the criminal justice system, you actually do give them

a better chance in life.

So we recognise that and actually this is a key part

of that process.

So, you know, we, and so kids can sometimes make poor decisions.

And actually, can we intervene at the right level,

at the lowest level to avoid that?

And I do believe this process helps that without a doubt.

And the data does support that nationally.

I was just going to come back on the liaison with town

Cllr Steve Bowles - 0:54:50

and parish councils as you raised.

They do get information from us

in the community newsletter that comes out.

There's, you know, if there's any relevant information they

need from community safety, it's in there.

Also, there's a liaison with community boards as well.

And if there is issues within the local community

that the parish council are aware of,

then obviously they can report that direct to me.

I can pass it on to Abdul or to the relevant members

who can follow the same route.

Thank you.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:55:31

Can I just go, sorry, I was going to ask the question

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 0:55:36

about the data related to gender, age, deprivation,

et cetera, and then a quick semi -suggestion, sorry, chair,

is an idea if there's a resource thing in terms

of how much the police and or council officers can get

into every school and every parish council to talk.

This seems to me the sort of thing, though, that actually we

could train some good Samaritans.

I mean, we should get some volunteers in to support

both the police and the council in this.

And they'd probably be quite happy, some of them,

going out and visiting on a rotor, the schools and parish

council.

If I could just come in on this sort of protected

characteristics point, because I thought

Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support - 0:56:14

that was a very helpful comment, because it

it is important to capture that

because crime does impact disproportionately

on different groups in different ways.

So I'll ask my colleagues just to,

if they've got any remarks in regard

to antisocial behaviour specifically.

But I just wanted to flag that that is something

that we are looking to do more on

in terms of how we capture that information.

So we have an annual survey

to understand people's perceptions of crime

and their fear of crime.

And that will be a key part of our sort

of updated Safer Bucks strategy, which is in process

of being refreshed in the autumn.

Because that is an important element.

And just to support that as well, again, we've had lots

of conversations, how can we better share that data?

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:57:06

We are constantly trying to improve

that how we can record it

and make sure those elements are captured as best as possible.

I think there has been recognition, particularly within our data in policing, that we want

to represent that more.

So that work has been ongoing and we want to share that.

And through our analysts within the police and the council, we work really closely together

to try and get that together.

On the schools point, if I may, yes, absolutely, we've got schools officers and neighbourhood

officers who do engage with the schools and are present, there is a challenge around resourcing

that because there is lots of schools.

So we try and again utilise data, utilise local knowledge and requests.

We link in with Dan here who's the service director for education and obviously the community

safety partnership around what does that look like.

particularly how we've spoken around some of that youth aspect in the town centres.

We've been working together about what we can do collaboratively around educating young people

and we're working what that might look like over the next year. There is different national products

around that. I think we have scoped out a couple of options but we are probably quite keen to make

that what sort of product we can get in to educate children.

Because I think that's going to be, again,

part of the lower level intervention.

If we can educate them before we even get to any type

of funding, that's, for me,

probably the best position we can be in.

Wendy.

Cllr David Carroll - 0:58:50

Thank you very much.

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 0:58:53

I'd like to echo Council Cornell's point

about the antisocial behaviour not being exclusively

in town centres.

My ward in Iver down the south, as you can see

from the heat map is particularly impacted,

and yet the neighbourhood team are pretty much invisible.

So I want to know what exactly do you

do to help the more rural areas like mine,

and particularly what do you do to be

proactive in terms of dressing some of the key points

that we've got.

I mean, we have a particularly difficult vape

shop in our area, which causes all sorts of issues.

So I'd like to know what you do about those sorts of situations.

And I've also got a question for Abdul about fly tipping.

What is the difference between the fly tipping that you're reporting here,

which map a fairly small number of cases,

and the hundreds of fly tipping reports that we get on Bixby Street?

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:59:56

I think the first question about our Royal Teams,

Absolutely, I totally recognise that that is something that's been concerned what I would say is probably in that part of the county

There has been some resource and challenge for for me if I'm honest

And which is I think why maybe some of that visibility has been affected

There's been a plan with my local inspector Ollie Brixie there around making getting a lot uplift into that part of the county

within our neighbourhood teams

So it's disappointing that you are feeling that, but I think I do know why.

There is a plan to get better visibility there.

But what I would say is there's also been a change around our response to that ASP data.

So because we've been able to see our data in a more effective toolkit, the expectation

of all the neighbourhood officers is they are looking at that data, that's going into

their response and patrol plan, they are then responding and documenting that.

we then dip cheque to make sure they're doing it.

So when we have the resources there,

which I'm confident we will be better resourced

in the near future,

their expectation is very, very clear.

They will look at their area,

see where their data says they should be

based on those reports,

and they will record that in document.

I can then hold them to account

to see whether they are doing that.

And then we also track the patrol data.

So on each officer's phone,

they have an app that will show

if they're visible patrolling and out and about in those areas and then I can see that data and hold them to account as well

So can the inspectors so I'll see I do recognise there is challenges and as I said before

some of the

Attack we are taking now is drawing the officers not into the town centres from those are all the teams

So they can be in those areas if they're not delivering that that's for me to hold them to account and make sure they are

so absolutely

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:01:56

In relation to the fly tipping question, the data that I presented on the slide, that just related to the fly tipping reports that Community Safety received.

But the majority of the reports, you're absolutely right, there's hundreds of them which go to waste services.

So those go to waste services. I haven't included those in our data because those reports haven't come to the Community Safety team.

But where they do come to the community safety team, we log that, record it, and then refer

it to the relevant team, which would be waste services to go out and deal with and waste

enforcement to deal with.

And where there is, but there is that collaborative working between our teams as well.

So if there is a persistent issue, then we will work together to try and resolve it in

terms of identifying the offender and trying to prosecute them.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:02:41

Thank you.

Cllr Anja Schaefer - 1:02:47

I have two questions and they're not particularly closely related.

One of them is what link we think or know there is between antisocial behaviour, particularly

around vandalism, littering, that sort of thing, and young people not in employment,

education or training.

Instinctively, I feel there might be a link, but I don't know whether we have got any data,

but if we have any data, what are we doing about it?

It would seem quite a complex problem.

The other question relates to, as I said, something quite different, which is speeding.

So I've noticed it myself, not necessarily just in specific hot spots.

We have specific hot spots and there we sometimes have, you know,

neighbourhood speed teams that are doing their own speed watch, et cetera.

But it seems to be happening all over the place.

So I drive along a 30 mile an hour small street in Buckingham

and somebody overtakes me.

And clearly significantly more than 30 miles an hour.

And this happens a lot.

I notice somebody comes out of their driveway,

they rev up their engine like nothing.

And then, I mean in this particular case,

it only happened on Saturday.

They didn't get very far because,

but they would have if they could have, I think.

So I'm noticing it quite a lot.

I get quite a few reports on this.

But it's the nature of these things that we can't, you know, most of the time,

you don't have time to take down enough details about the nature of the car,

particularly if you're driving yourself, certainly not a number plate.

So what is the possible police response and

what should residents do and counsellors do when these reports come in?

So in terms of speeding, it's something that is highlighted often in our community priorities

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 1:04:51

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:04:53

when we do our surveys and it is like a top three concern of our residents regularly around

all of Buckinghamshire.

I think myself, I've, as you say, have noticed a lot more concern certainly around the roads

both with incidents that have been happening where people have been getting hurt and I

think it's important that our response to speeding helps prevent some of that harm that

that is happening on our roads.

In terms of how we work together to combat that,

we work close to our roads policing team in neighbourhood.

So they're obviously specialist responders

who have the high performance cars

and are more effective at challenging those offenders

who use the road because often speeding could be an indicator

of other crime that they might be pertaining to.

So we work closely with them on certain operations.

We use that to target people who are uninsured

on the roads, whether there's tacks.

In particular with speeding,

the neighbour teams that we work with,

we've been rolling out as much possible training

so that we can use our own speeding mechanisms

because we have to be at a certain level evidentially

to be able to take that forward to a court.

So we're trying to bring that level of training up

so that we're more effective at combating that

across all of Buckinghamshire.

So that's probably the main way in which we challenge that

as the police.

You mentioned there about community speed watch, I believe,

is what you were coming to,

which is obviously another fantastic scheme

that we support with,

and that helps us to identify people

who are committing offences,

but obviously not to that,

we're gonna take it through court,

but it gives us the ability as the police

to go and talk to them and have those conversations.

And as we've said, sometimes just having that conversation

can be as effective actually

as taking somebody in through court as well.

So in terms of the speeding, I think that's one part of it.

For the community, the important thing is that they report it to us as much as possible.

If you go on to search Thamesway Police report ASB, I would probably put that down as and

you can mark it through there.

And there's also a 72 -hour contact section, which is through to Thamesway Police, where

you can say, you know, I've got concerns of speeding in this area, and that could be something

that we address to.

But in terms of working with our partners as well with speeding, there's a different

speed monitoring science you can get in areas that help us build up those data sets to actually

be able to understand where the issue is.

And that's where we talk about trying to be as effective as possible using data to understand,

well, this is the issue around this time, and then that helps my team to target our

speed enforcement to be as effective as possible.

Shall I just answer your first question going backwards?

Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support - 1:07:36

So I would agree absolutely there is a correlation and a link with young people and needs.

And I think that's kind of well known and the partnership work with youth services and children's services is really important in this space.

So if there is a known issue about young people and antisocial behaviour, youth services colleagues will absolutely be involved in those discussions.

and young people need a sense of purpose and opportunities,

and the more we give young people those opportunities

and support them, yeah, absolutely that will be a benefit

and we'll see that flow through.

Thank you.

Greg.

If I could just come in quickly with one last thing.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:08:21

I was just reminded of a very good example

which I just quickly mentioned.

Thank you very much, I'll add to that, yeah.

Thank you.

Just in respect to the speed and driving issues actually,

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:08:29

I don't know why this slips my mind

is something that I'm really proud of.

In High Wycombe in particular,

we actually worked really closely with,

and this was facilitated by the council too

in terms of co -funding youth diversion

around young people and cars.

And there's actually an active scheme at the moment

that's been going on.

We switched lanes through community interest company,

and they've been able to get a number of young people

who have been working on cars regularly,

diverting them away from antisocial behaviour,

teaching them and educating them about cars,

safety, driving.

Clearly young people are interested in cars and driving.

I know I was.

So that's something that they've been working towards.

And I was able to go to a scheme recently presentation

where we actually gave them all different MBQs

for different qualifications that they've achieved

through that scheme.

So I just want to say in terms of diversion,

there is that further work going on to understand actually

how can we work with people at the youngest level as well

and have those positive impacts.

Greg?

Cllr David Carroll - 1:09:27

Thank you, Chair.

And it's always worth being last because all the good questions are being asked.

Cllr Gregory Smith - 1:09:32

But I did want to thank you, Rif, for all the work that you're doing and the presentation

that you made.

There was a couple of questions, but first a general kind of observation that I'm just

confused about really, I suppose.

And that's the anti -social behaviour data chart that you showed.

It seems difficult and it feels as if we're confusing crime and anti -social behaviour quite a lot and quite frequently.

It seems very difficult to understand how domestic abuse and drug dealing could be seen as anything other than crime.

I don't quite understand why that's on the list.

But the questions, the questions really was a concern for me that hasn't really arisen here is about fear of crime.

And it seems to me that that's often a much greater problem

that we, and sometimes more difficult to address.

And I wanted to relate a recent issue where I was involved

with the antisocial behaviour, or asked for advice

from the antisocial behaviour team.

And it was a social media report in my community about somebody

who was seen to be, or a man, thought to be behaving

inappropriately in a local nature reserve.

And a woman came to me and she said, oh, I wouldn't go there.

It's too dangerous.

Now, my response was to put a social media report

onto social media saying, it is the safest place in the county.

There are no incidents.

And if you have any concerns, they

should be reported to the police.

Now, I don't think my intervention

would have made any difference.

But that initial social media report

had a huge impact, particularly on women in the community.

And I don't really know, and it would be really nice

to get an understanding through our work

on antisocial behaviour, how we deal with that,

that insidious kind of attitude that really stops people

from doing things and from enjoying

some of the wonderful places in our county.

And the second question, which is short

and completely unrelated and follows on

from lots of things that people have said

about prevention.

What are your views about the complete lack of youth services

across Buckinghamshire compared to how it used to be?

And isn't that a way of really engaging young people,

a tremendous prevention exercise that we seem to have lost

over the years?

I'll just pick up on the first point first.

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:12:08

in terms of our data set.

Those were the reports that we received.

And you're absolutely right where it is criminal behaviour,

drug dealing, assaults, domestic abuse.

Those are quite clearly criminal matters

and should be referred to the police.

But where the reports do come to us, and on occasions,

residents, they don't know which agency to go to,

so they will report it to us.

We do record those, because we have to.

So we record that.

And it comes up in our data reporting set.

but we do make the appropriate referral to the police

in those matters.

Hence why they're on our ASB reporting data set.

Although it's not ASB, it's there

because it's a report that has been made to us.

In terms of, do you want to?

Yeah.

Yeah, so I just wanted to come back

on the fear of crime point, which I think

Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support - 1:12:58

is a really well -made point.

And thank you for the work that you're

doing as a community leader in actually myth -busting,

because I think that's an area where we've all got a responsibility to play in actually

as local councillors. We know that social media is pervasive, so putting out some messages

around the facts is actually really helpful alongside proactive work by partner agencies.

So I think it's something where we've all got a responsibility. I know, just to give

another anecdotal but different example.

You know, I know as a woman who enjoys running,

that often there's a lot of data out there

to show that women are, and we've

got to have a fear of going out running at night

or in town centres.

And again, that's an area where the police could help.

But equally, there's a role in that sort of VCS community

the leadership space and many running organisations

have women only groups or groups that specifically

go out at night in town centres to help women

have a safe space so that they're with a group

of other runners as well.

So I just thought I'd come back to say that

because it is something about community leadership

as well as what we do as partners.

And then your latter question about youth services

All that I will say is that we work really closely with youth services.

We have really good levels of cooperation.

It's not just about those particular services,

but it's also about the whole range of community support that we put in place with young people.

And that's really important work that we continue with.

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 1:14:57

Also, just to touch on Abdul's point as well, there will be some, as I said, crossover with crime.

For instance, we will get disorder in town centres.

That might lead into assaults, it might lead into criminal damage.

So full crimes, but there might be an antisocial element to that.

So particularly within our data, we still get full crimes that we investigate and

deal with robustly.

But we have a flag on that crime to say it's antisocial in nature.

So we can still track that and make sure we get the right response.

Because we can't just put it into one box or the other.

We must make sure we can still understand that if there is an antisocial behaviour issue behind criminal activity, if that makes sense.

So sometimes that's why the data is that.

And it's important that our tools team then, they recognise that.

They share the data with us around the criminal aspect as well.

Thank you for that.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:15:53

Finally, Andy then Steve I believe wants to come in quickly, don't you?

Do you want to come in now, Steve?

Cllr Steve Bowles - 1:16:01

Yeah, just picking up on the youth aspect, I attended the Voluntary and Community Sector conference that was here yesterday,

and there were lots of organisations that the council work in conjunction with from a youth aspect.

So, yeah, we're working really, really hard in that respect.

Before you close the meeting, I would just like,

do you want to come in?

Okay, I'll come back after.

Andy, your question, finally.

Might I be able to jump in just momentarily before?

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:16:31

Sorry, is that okay?

I had some specific stuff that kind of goes

to what was being said here.

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:16:37

And in relation to kind of youth services stuff,

a good kind of case study I've had recently was in Marlowe,

where over the summer holidays,

we've had a real significant increase in youth ASB.

It led to us having a public meeting.

We had very good engagement from local councils there,

both town and from Berkshire council.

And we brought all the services together.

And what that led to was the youth coordinator was able to

obtain specific outreach youth work into that issue,

which granted is no mean feat to do that in such a quick way.

But what I would say is that each time ourselves as the police and

the partnership with the people sat at the table, we required the need for that dedicated

youth outreach work. We've been able to get that where we've identified it as an issue.

I think there's a recognition probably, and not meaning to speak for youth services, but

that just putting on youth clubs now, people don't go to them. So actually, there is a

need for that youth outreach work to be in those specific areas, because again, with

only finite resource, we need to be in the right place at the right time, and I think

that's what we need to do.

I think you find people don't, young people don't go to them

because they don't exist.

Those that do exist are very well attended.

Cllr Gregory Smith - 1:17:50

Yeah, fair enough, I can take that point as I say.

That's fair enough.

Not mean to talk about people.

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:17:55

And the only other point I would say is that in terms of

you talking about walking public spaces,

I'm fortunate enough to chair the Violence Against Women

and Girls Focus Group for Buckinghamshire.

And we actually do in collaboration with local MPs,

local councillors put on Walk for Women,

which is what we're trying to do in terms of inspiring

confidence and having walks in public places.

Granted, it's been a bit hot recently, but we're certainly going to be trying to bring

those on, although something we continue to do around the county, recognising those issues

that you've spoken about there.

Thank you very much.

Andy, finally.

Thank you.

A couple of quick points.

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:18:29

One, Abdul, you mentioned about three monthly meetings.

I wasn't sure that was meetings every three months or one a month.

Yeah, I thought that might be the case.

Yeah, that's one area. So it's three meetings. It's 36 meetings a year.

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:18:47

Who, who actually attends them?

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:18:49

So we have a range of partners. So the police attend,

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:18:52

housing associations attend in relation to ASB by their tenants or where their

tenants have been victims.

And it depends on the nature of the cases that are at the meeting.

So we do have social care and attendance.

It could be waste enforcement, waste services. So it's a range of partners,

But it does depend on the nature of the case that's brought to the table

We do get youth services coming as well if there's a youth element to any of the matter

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:19:21

Yeah, I was just thinking why counsellors weren't invited. It's a partner meeting. It's a partner meeting we discuss

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:19:23

confidential

Case specific data. Okay, particularly relating to vulnerabilities around individual. I was thinking that

Quite often we are the first port of call if you like

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:19:36

for instance, is happening on our patches.

And, you know, we're as close to the ground as anybody,

if you like, in that respect.

And we do keep counsellors updated.

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:19:48

So depending on how successful the matters are,

unfortunately because of data protection

and GDPR restrictions,

we can't include nonspecific case members

to those discussions.

All right, fair enough.

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:20:02

Just a quick one on going back to the issues

of antisocial behaviour. We found it on our patch a particularly tough summer on Aylesbury

East, which is Bedgrove, predominantly, and the issues that have happened around the park

area and Jansall Square. I mean, we've had theft, verbal abuse, physical abuse, arson,

and vandalism, and a whole range of the subjects

that we've already discussed.

But what slightly concerns me, we

have worked closely with Mike Cowdery.

And one of the issues was regarding getting CCTV,

or the mobile CCTV.

But when we came to try and access it,

we couldn't because they were all being used.

So we had an issue there.

Is it under resource?

I mean, you talked about CPSOs as well.

I mean, a lot of people think they've not really got,

there was a day when the Bobby on the Beat,

if you did something wrong, would clip you around the ear.

And when you got home, you got another clip around the ear,

freedom of your own man sort of thing.

But having said that,

Are we still under resourced?

I mean could we do with more CCTV?

Mike in particular talked about building pictures up of perpetrators who were causing problems

in these sort of little gangs that develop if you like over a short period of time.

then they move on to whatever it is.

They either grow up or they go on to bigger and better crown

if you like or whatever.

So, you know, we might not be talking about huge sums here

to build that picture up.

So what are we doing to alleviate that problem?

So, I mean, if I had more resources and more money

and more people, that would be lovely.

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 1:22:16

But in reality, actually our neighbour teams are really well resourced at the moment.

So we do have good support in that place.

We do have a good healthy amount of community support officers.

Things like CCTV, absolutely.

We have recently got a number of the mobile CCTV vans active within the county.

And the force is looking at how we can better equip that.

I think some of the challenge, particularly around where we're trying to utilise the mobile

cameras particularly, is the challenge we've had before and the cost effectiveness of static

cameras is high.

So if we can utilise the mobile cameras, it does help.

And obviously the issues change, the locations change.

If we put officers in visibility in one location, the offenders might move.

So we need to be adaptable and flexible.

So I do know that capability has become more available.

Yes, I would love more,

but what we have started to do is track that.

Harry and the other inspectors

are then holding their team to account.

Is that a tactic we're using?

And how can we help enable it?

So yes, I know the issue you were talking about

and Mike's challenges.

I believe Inspector Newkirk as well

is actually really championing the use of CCTV bands

and looking how can we get into that as early as possible

to make sure that is a tactic we can use.

So definitely those challenges we do understand,

but we're trying to make sure our staff know

how to access that and we access it

at an earliest opportunity.

If it then becomes a block out,

that's something I can escalate.

Thank you.

Finally Steve.

Great, thanks.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:24:06

You know, I was just gonna say in summing up,

I'd like to thank the committee for their time

Cllr Steve Bowles - 1:24:09

and their questions.

And I'm sure you found this really a really good

presentation.

And I'd like to thank the team and the police

and the other partners who aren't here,

who are working so, so hard on this aspect.

I was going to sum up as well to say

Cllr David Carroll - 1:24:31

that this is probably one of the biggest

problems in our communities.

And to me, it's been great.

I've purposely given a lot of time to this today,

and I think justly so, to show that there is a lot of work,

partnership going on.

And can I just thank you for that time and effort

you're putting into this, and maybe we'll

have you back in the future.

So OK.

Thank you.

6 Heathrow Expansion Programme

Cllr David Carroll - 1:27:24

Okay, can we move on to the next item, heat expansion programme, which is obviously very

important to Buckinghamshire. Could I, before I ask the cabinet member to

introduce this subject, can I just go along and can people introduce their

Cllr Peter Martin - 1:27:50

names please. Good morning my name is Peter Martin, Deputy Cabinet Member for

Cllr Thomas Broom - 1:27:56

Transport. Thomas Broom, Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Transport. Good

morning Hannah Austin, I'm the Service Director for Infrastructure and Major

projects at Buckinghamshire Council.

Good morning, I'm Daniel Gig, I'm the Council's Infrastructure Delivery Manager.

My team are responsible for the engagement on transport related nationally significant

infrastructure projects.

Thank you.

Hi there, I'm Hannah Thomas -Davis, I'm Principal Planning Officer in the Major Infrastructure

Projects team here at Buckinghamshire.

Good morning, Sarinda Arora from the Arora Group.

Good morning, Carlton Brown, CEO of Heathrow West.

Good morning, Sarah Price, I'm Planning Director at DWD representing Heathrow West.

Good morning, I'm Richard Lamont, Director of Stakeholder Engagement with the Arora Group.

Thank you very much.

Over to you, Thomas.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:28:58

So obviously we are no strangers in Buckinghamshire

Cllr Thomas Broom - 1:29:01

to major infrastructure projects

with our dear friends at HS2 and East West Rail.

But we have now got another transport infrastructure

project which is sort of just over the border

in the form of Heathrow expansion

which we are very much hoping is not going

to have a similar effect on the county

to the two that I've previously mentioned.

Colleagues on the committee will have seen in the private pack, we've included our response

to the recent consultation, so I hope that's been helpful to set out, to see where we have

set out our position as a council.

I'm very grateful that we've got one of the two main bids coming to talk to us today.

We very much appreciate that.

Again, I will leave colleagues to read in any implication as to why others have decided

not to be here today.

But it is very useful to have these sessions where we can sort of ask some questions and

see where we are now.

I think I've got a few bits, living as I do in the south of the county and relatively

close to Heathrow, which I would like to raise.

But I think I'd be keen to give as much time to colleagues on the committee to ask questions.

And then if possible I might come back in at the end and cover any gaps from the BUCKS perspective.

I must say this will be coming back in the future anyway, so this is just the start of it.

No, absolutely.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:30:39

Cllr Thomas Broom - 1:30:41

But it's one of those things where obviously there will be some relatively significant impacts in terms of local communities.

in the south of the county where work may well be carried out by the project, especially in the IVAs.

But there will also be some quite significant knock -on effects in the sense that there will be a major intervention in terms of the transport network,

primarily through the F -25, which obviously an awful lot of Buckinghamshire residents use on a daily basis.

And some of the road closures that will occur under either plan will significantly affect traffic coming around, particularly when the M25 is snarled up.

So there are some wider transport implications.

But I'll leave it for me for now, if that's alright, Chair, and come back at the end and just do a bit of gap filling.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:31:35

Any questions on that short presentation there for the moment and then we'll move on to say

whoever wants to say what's next. Anything on that at all? None. So okay Daniel you want

to say a few words? So Chair good morning is it okay if I can give the members a bit

of background? Yeah what we have decided as well obviously we haven't had any pack from

you at the moment so if you can just give a vision quickly and then the members will

come back to you. That's fine but just so that members actually understand why we

here because normally you would expect just someone like Heathrow to go ahead

with the expansion. I came to this country in 72 when Heathrow was the

busiest and one of the cheapest airports in the world for landing charges, cost

parking, whatever point of view. We've become since the privatisation of BA in

2006, we are the most expensive airport in the world.

And until recently, we're not even in the top 20

from service and standards point of view.

So it's always been my dream to not get another

large project turned into HS2 or even worse.

And this one, by the way, the way they carry on,

it will be worse than HS2.

So that's when we came up in 2000

and after the Davis Commission, what about 10 years ago,

Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group - 1:32:57

We went to Chris Grayling and the team and said, we want to make a difference, want to

break up the monopoly at Heathrow Airport and create competition.

We're going to bring hospitality experience.

I'm not expert at anything, but I always am surrounded by the best people.

When we opened the first hotel for British Airways back in 99, and within 12 years, we

were the largest hotel company in the UK.

We now have a property business as well as development business.

Carlton, on my right, who has been with the company for more than 16 years before joining

us from PwC, he's leading Heathrow West for me, the project to make a difference.

Hopefully, when you see how and why we actually have come up with not just our dream, but

something that we believe is affordable, deliverable, and something that the airlines want.

Now, everyone in this room can have their own views, whether we want expansion at Heathrow

or not.

We all will have different views, but at least I hope that you'll see when Carbone goes through

the presentation on the difference we're trying to make.

I'm actually doing the presentation today.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:34:01

We just, no, not particularly because it hasn't gone on the public domain.

So if you want, go down the chain again.

If you've got anything to say, say it now and then we'll have questions.

In terms of content, obviously there's quite a bit we've put into the public domain in

terms of proposals.

So hopefully people have had a chance to go to our website, see our press releases, and

see our sort of short runway proposal versus what I've come up with.

And I guess from our perspective, I'm here to sort of answer any questions you may have

as to, you know, why are you even bothering?

Why have you come up with a short runway solution?

What's different to how?

Why have you come up with that?

and any other questions you may have around surface access,

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:34:54

their modernization, and lots of other issues

that go along with airport expansion.

So from a high -level perspective,

the reason we've chosen to do a short runway

rather than a long runway,

if I just give you a couple of minutes on that.

So HAL's proposal goes over the N25,

so to go over the N25, you effectively have to move

the N25 150 metres to the west and then sink it into a tunnel.

And then you can build the runway

on top of it in simple terms.

So that sounds great.

However, there is a number of problem children, as I call it,

in the west of the N25, being two rivers, a lake,

a substation, rather large substation.

The N25 itself, you then have the rail head that brings

in fuel to the airport, and you have the energy from waste plant,

which I think most of you will sort of heard about,

which is a very big unit in itself,

which councils use for incineration of their waste.

So all those assets in themselves

are DCOs in their own right to move them.

And so when you talk about moving rivers,

when you talk about filling in lakes,

about 26 hectares for the lakes,

they have to move somewhere else.

And in terms of the impacts you talked about

before elsewhere, that is the effect of moving rivers,

moving lakes that have to go somewhere else

because water will go to different places,

and therefore the spread will go much wider.

So what we're trying to come up with is a scheme

which is more considered, is less impactful,

and therefore doesn't spread quite as far.

So that's the central proposition.

So we have assessed that in doing the 3 -5 runway,

HAL can't deliver an operational runway

till 2040 at the earliest.

We can deliver a short runway in 2035,

that's some five plus years sooner.

Time is money, so what we're saying is we can do something

that is more cost effective, do it quicker,

and therefore deliver benefits to communities

and to the country in a quicker way.

Any questions?

I'll count them.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:36:58

Sparks and debate.

Sorry, so if you're going to do it shorter and quicker

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:37:02

and be all sorts of sit, all thing, all dancing,

what are you sacrificing for this?

So, in having a short runway, that means operationally,

some of the aircraft can't take off and land

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:37:15

off a shorter runway, because we're proposing

two, four, versus three, five.

However, there's two existing runways.

So we've looked at the airport as a system,

as opposed to an individual runway in its own right.

So you have two full length runways there already.

So what we're saying is, when working with the airlines,

we're saying, well, if you had a shorter runway,

which you can run all narrow -bodied

and some wide -bodied off that,

does that free up space on the other two runways

to expand capacity?

And the simple answer is yes.

So if you look at the airport as a system,

most airports around the world with three runways

will have differing lengths of runway.

You don't have to have three full -length runways

as a system.

So you can have two full -length runways,

a shorter runway, and still deliver the same capacity

off that system.

So we would say from a system perspective,

you're not giving up anything in that respect.

Not only that, but working with the airlines,

they're the ones who know what they require,

Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group - 1:38:12

what the requirements are.

Currently on the two existing runways,

60 % of the aircrafts coming in and going out

are narrow -bodied aircraft.

So only 40 % are white -bodied aircraft.

Okay, well, next question then.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:38:27

Sorry, if I understood correctly,

you're thinking it will be up and running in 2035,

Was that, yes, okay.

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 1:38:33

Those of us that try to prevent the world going to ruin through climate change,

clearly would like to see that we're not against flying,

we're against the emissions caused by it and in the building.

I can see that you've made some noises in some of the stuff that I've just read

online and that about being more environmentally friendly than the other

proposals and that some of the materials are environmentally friendly.

In 2035, we will have zero carbon cement available in the UK, zero carbon steel, and probably

almost zero carbon bitumen or an equivalent of it.

Would you make a commitment to build your runway as zero carbon, which would also fit

with, I think, with Srinidhararara's award for, I think, corporate responsibility for

the Aurora group that happened a few years ago?

In addition, there is already the opportunity to do zero carbon flying.

At the moment they're very small, but they're coming.

Zero Avia has a project now with Birmingham Airport,

where it was hoping that it would be flying already domestic

flights this year, and Mediterranean flights

within two years.

By 2035, it's entirely possible with the right encouragement

and investment we could have totally zero carbon flying.

And that runway could be the first in the world

to be built zero carbon and only have zero carbon flights on it.

And instead of being something we're all fighting against

because it's actually going to destroy our future,

it could be helping us to have a better one.

I think the only promise I can give you

Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group - 1:40:01

is that we will do the best we can compared

to the conditions of the market.

The one thing we will never say here

is make false promises just to get your words

or just to get your thumbs up and say

this is what we want to do.

We as a company, as an organisation,

want to be the best at what we do.

One of the things my son Sanjay, who's 37, CEO of the company,

We want to be a green company, you know, producing our own energy, whether we want to have the

green key.

And only last month did all our hotels qualify and were approved as green key, whether it's

waste and other things as an organisation.

So the one thing I can't sit here and promise you is who's going to wake up tomorrow, let

alone 2035, if everything is there and the facilities are there and it's affordable and

deliverable.

So at the end of the day we want to work with the local authorities, the government and

the airlines.

Without working with them we can't deliver anything.

So I guess all I'm saying is we will do the best we can within the limits and if at the

end of the day we can't afford it or the airlines don't want us to do it, all the local authorities

will have to work with everyone.

Yeah I think the other aspect here is that mostly missions from the airport come from

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:41:21

people coming to and from the airport, either by road in

particular, in terms of air quality and what have you.

And in terms of the planes themselves, they're obviously

they're the ones.

And the manufacturers need to come up with more efficient

aircraft.

The airlines need to use the SAF fuels and what have you.

The oil companies need to invest in the SAF fuels to

enable the airline to use them in a cost -effective way.

So I guess from a promoter perspective, the things that

are in our control and there's things

that are outside of our control.

So, and I guess what the, the covenant tried to do

with the NPS is come up with a sort of seller statement

as to noise and air quality for promoters to meet.

So we clearly have to meet those at a minimum,

but working with our partners, we will try and get

to a place where we end up having a better position

than the incumbent being Heathrow Airport.

But I think it's only important for everyone to know

that actually the promoter can only do so much.

There are lots of other aspects here going on

which actually the promoter doesn't have control over.

I just come up very, very, very quickly.

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 1:42:27

I mean, I'm sorry, I never take the we want to be

best in class as an excuse for anything

because if you're best in a class that fails,

we don't get anywhere.

So, I mean, best in class for me is not it.

It's hitting something which is achievable,

which can be done and you could commit to.

You could commit to a zero carbon build for that runway

and that would be the first in the world.

It would change the game.

it would help British industry, it would drive our cement

and our steel production.

And the other thing is when you launch that runway in 2035,

we are very likely to pass two degrees C of warming

in the world at that point.

So you could be launching your airport.

In the first year, we pass two degrees C.

How about making a commitment not just to be best in class,

but to do it correctly?

So all right, I'd come back and just say,

the great objective, the problem is actually

to bring together to actually to make that work.

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:43:17

So we could sit here today and make that commitment to you,

but actually if we don't deliver the airlines,

then it doesn't happen.

And so we fail and how go forward

with the worst scheme than ours,

because we can't deliver something that the airlines do.

You're gonna come back in the future anyway, aren't you?

Cllr David Carroll - 1:43:31

So, okay, Wendy, did you have your hand up?

Thank you.

As the board member for Iver,

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 1:43:37

who's one of the board's most affected

by Heathrow expansion, I've got a number of questions.

Firstly, you carried out consultations, community consultations, in all the areas around Heathrow

except Buckinghamshire.

Please can you tell me when you're going to carry out a consultation for our residents

in Buckinghamshire?

One of the biggest issues that we have is the cargo.

Heathrow is a huge cargo hub regardless of all the passengers that are required.

How are you going to manage that?

freight on our local roads is massive.

So we need to know how you're planning on managing that cargo,

where you're going to put it,

and whether you're going to have specific cargo depots,

or how are you going to manage it.

Another question is regarding the mitigation

that you're going to provide with regards to noise

in particular, and also air quality.

How are you going to deliver that to the local communities?

And also, we have a lot of infrastructure that how the Heathrow Limited say that they're going to need in terms of land take around our area.

When are you going to be able to tell local communities what land take you're going to be needing for your project?

Thank you, Councillor Matthews. If I just answer the point around the engagement first.

So, we carried out an engagement effectively as a relaunch of our proposals since the work

that we'd done previously before ether expansion effectively slowed down and caused as a result

of the COVID pandemic.

So, that relaunch, we focused just on very limited events effectively so we could start

going out and talking to yourselves publicly,

re -engaging on the proposals again.

We're working closely with Keisha,

representing communities around Heathrow Airport

as well, to understand more of their background knowledge

Sarah Price - Planning Director, DWD - 1:45:43

around the communities surrounding Heathrow Airport.

And we're planning two further phases of engagement

later this year, and then a main engagement early next year.

All of those views will be taken into account as we develop our proposals further

to make a planning submission intended to be towards the end of next year,

which is effectively the deadline set by government for both proposals

to submit their DCO applications.

So we haven't engaged with Buckinghamshire residents through those exhibitions yet,

But we will do, and we'll be talking to your officers as well to make sure that we do that

in the proper way.

What's the timeframe for that engagement?

So we're intending to have a form of consultation later this year.

We're just still working through what type of events those would be.

But also, we want to think about how we can engage with residents in a more innovative

way.

You'll be aware, I think, of the changes recently made to the Planning Act, which effectively

changed the statutory requirements of consultation.

And in doing that, it actually means there's quite a lot more freedom of promoters that

want to engage in a more positive and effective way with residents, how we best do that.

So actually, we're open to ideas from yourselves as counsellors working with officers as well,

to how we best get that feedback in the most appropriate way.

Next year we will have the full range of exhibitions

and we haven't fixed a date for that yet, I don't think, unless my colleague can come in on that.

But we want to hear from people at the right time when they can best influence the proposals.

Absolutely. So just really to echo what Sarah said,

So of course there's been what we kind of badges more informal consultation that was held earlier

this year. But moving forward we are heading towards our formal consultation which will be

taking place in spring 2027. Now the lead up to that we're very very keen to engage with

communities to pick up on kind of key concerns and also look at how we can

engage. So under the new regs we don't have to produce something called the

State of the Community consultation anymore but we do believe best practise

is sitting down engaging understanding where people are and really

understanding how we can connect with communities better because I think that

There is a certain degree of, definitely,

a fatigue around big projects in the area

and the effects that they can bring.

And we really want to cut through that

Ries-William Lamont - Heathrow West Ltd - 1:48:32

to make sure that people understand that we are listening,

that we are here, this is a genuine exercise.

So we will be producing an approach

to our formal consultation, which we want

kind of local authorities to feed into,

because you have some of the best intelligence

when it comes to connecting with the people that you obviously live amongst.

Greg, then Caroline, then back to Thomas.

Ries-William Lamont - Director of Stakeholder Engagement, Heathrow West Ltd - 1:49:02

Sorry, can I have the answers to my other questions?

Cllr David Carroll - 1:49:04

Oh, what?

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 1:49:07

There's three other questions here.

So taking them in sort of reverse order, I suppose.

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:49:16

So in terms of land, the whole genesis of our project has been less land take, so have

less impactful expansion compared to Heathrow Airport Limited.

So that's our central proposition.

So we are working on, and in fact we had a session yesterday

pinpointing certain assets and properties and businesses

and residents and we've been saying which ones literally

fall within the line don't fall within the line.

So we're working on that and continue to work that

and by the time we get to formal consultation

we should be a lot clearer around what land

we actually need permanently,

which needs some we need temporarily,

and then which ones are then impacted.

So we're going through that analysis at the moment.

And I guess related to that is noise as well.

So we're doing our noise modelling.

The government set out the requirement,

no more noise versus 2024 levels.

So as you can imagine, you cannot deliver that today,

but actually how do you deliver that in the future?

So, and that comes from more efficient aircraft, frankly.

So, we are working on the modelling to demonstrate

how we can deliver noise, what sort of aircraft

there will be, and there will be new generation

aircraft that will be required to meet those requirements.

And then on cargo, you're absolutely right.

So one of our, we see as innovative solutions

is that we are building a new railhead

coming into the south.

So it comes along the same trajectory

as the southern rail scheme that's been put forward by one of the promoters of that rail

scheme. So we will go along the same trajectory. We will bring in a rail head which will then

be used for construction purposes. So we don't use the road as much for construction. We

use a new rail head. And then potentially that rail head can then be repurposed in the

future. And one of those could be potentially passengers. One could be cargo. But what we're

to do is be considered expansion of cargo facilities where they currently

sit at the moment next to T4. My belief is that actually there's quite a bit of

cargo that just comes in and out it actually doesn't either originate or end

up in the country. There's an awful lot of transfer cargo that comes through the

airport and so actually you know which is very low margin brings no additional

GDP to the country. So it'll be interesting to see how that business

this model moves forward under expansion.

Because cargo only goes to long haul routes in any event.

So we need to work through the business case of all that,

work through the cargo operators

to exactly work out what they need.

But I don't think it's quite as large as perhaps

maybe has been put out there in the private domain.

Thank you.

Greg.

Thank you, Chair.

Cllr David Carroll - 1:51:58

Cllr Gregory Smith - 1:52:04

And I don't want to repeat the very comprehensive submission

that the council has put in or what my colleagues have said.

But my understanding is that even a short runway is going

to have a substantial impact

on the local transfer infrastructure.

So the things in my mind really were two really.

One is that we're going to be building an awful lot of homes

in Buckinghamshire, vast numbers,

because there is a huge housing need.

My understanding is that this runway

is going to lead to the demolition of thousands

of homes.

It seems an odd kind of situation to be in.

And the other is that's already really

been mentioned about the transport infrastructure.

And I just wonder how it is that we

can have a major infrastructure project like this that

that doesn't seem to consider any linkage to HS2.

Why is that?

But also the wider road and rail infrastructure

networks that are required for this expansion.

I can't see any proper reference to that in the papers.

So in terms of houses, unfortunately there are

a number of houses that are just simply in the way.

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:53:19

So Harmansworth, Sips and Longford.

They're just in the way underneath the new runway.

So unfortunately, they just have to go.

What we are considering is maybe replacing those.

So how do you, with displaced villages,

can we move them to a new location?

So we're actually looking into that

to see whether we can do that in some of the space we free up.

So it's building even more houses than the ones

that we're already faced with.

So what we keep talking about is replacing assets

that we remove, so displaced assets.

So is there land we can use for displaced assets,

such as homes, businesses, and what have you.

So for example, the energy from waste plant

is an asset that has to be replaced.

There's no option on that, so you have to replace that.

Houses, you don't have to, but we're looking optionally,

is there a way of actually coming up with a proposal

to the communities where we can replace those assets?

So we are cognizant of removing homes

and how sensitive that is, and actually,

can we give something back to improve things

from a community perspective.

So we are looking at those sort of things.

In terms of surface access, that is a massive subject.

So there's some tough targets in the NPS to achieve.

And there's no simple solution for that.

And so it's a number of things

that will have to come to place.

People were talking about Western Rail, Southern Rail,

where we're sort of liaising with those guys on that.

and different parties have different views

as to which one should go forward or shouldn't go forward.

We're working with TFL, in particular upgrades

to the Piccadilly line, but also what happens to HEX.

The franchise runs out for Heathrow Airport shortly.

Who gets that space, those slots?

Can you use those more efficiently?

Certainly the trains for HEX are extremely expensive

and very underutilised, so how can we better utilise those,

for example?

and also how do you link up to maybe Reading

through Western Rail, so we're looking at all those things.

We're also looking at charges that Heathrow

coming to and from Heathrow by car,

so to discourage people to come by the airport by car,

and a critical part of that is staff and workers.

So people will focus on the passengers coming to

and coming to the airport, but actually a number

of the journeys are through staff.

So how do we achieve modal shift for staff in particular from their cars to other forms

of transport, whether that be by bus, by I cycle a lot, so I do cycle to and from the

airport.

So he didn't like that, but I enjoy doing it.

But actually it's quite tough as a cyclist going to and from the airport.

So how can we make it safer for users and therefore encourage them to do that?

So we are looking at all those options.

But for no consideration of any linkage with HS2?

That's, from a promoter's perspective, that's not something that we can achieve.

So I think that's probably a question for DFT to see how they might want to try and link that up.

But as promoter, that's not something that we have the ability to do.

Not only that, on that Councillor, but it's also how many stops, how many connexions you have on the HS2,

Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group - 1:56:37

then you lose that speed.

And like Carlton said, it's down to DFT

and not from our point of view.

OK, Caroline and then Peter.

Thank you, Chair, but actually, Councillor Matthews

asked my question.

Thank you.

Peter?

Cllr David Carroll - 1:56:53

Thank you, Chairman.

Cllr Peter Martin - 1:56:56

I note in your proposal as you talk about work to junctions

14 and 14A of the M25, and my understanding

was one of the benefits of your scheme

was that it had minimal impact on the M25,

which is such an important artery for this country.

What impact is the work to those junctions going to have

and how are you going to minimise the effects

on our residents?

Thanks.

Yeah, so if we use the word minimal anywhere,

then we shouldn't be using the word minimal.

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 1:57:32

That should not be, I don't know if that's in our materials,

but it should not be, so we are impacting the M25.

Our proposition is that we are not impacting it

anywhere near as much as the Heathrow Airport Limited

is doing, so they're taking the entire stretch

and moving it 150 metres to the west,

putting it to a tunnel, so they're moving a huge change

to the M25.

We are doing change to the M25, so we're

having to make improvements to 14, taking away 14A,

so that's quite substantial in itself.

But we believe by doing that, we can better

route the traffic into the Terminal 6, Terminal 5, and therefore avoiding local routes.

So one of the complaints from locals is the mixing of airport traffic and local traffic.

So by having a better dedicated junction at 14 going to and from the airport, we can sort

of reduce that impact.

So we keep the airport traffic going directly to the airport itself.

Thank you for that.

Thomas?

Cllr Thomas Broom - 1:58:39

Yeah, so I think we've, obviously this is sort of our introductory session on this and

this will be a process that's going forwards.

I think my concerns are probably more in the vein of those presented by Councillor Matthews

in terms of the practical impact on bucks and what we're going to see in terms of the

sort of the change in the future profile of traffic

both in the air and on the ground.

So perhaps I wouldn't necessarily ask specific questions

for now, but just as what we'd be keen to see

when we get to future sessions.

I think there is a really important point about flight paths

that obviously is probably a little bit down the road.

Much of the south of the county is already sitting

under flight paths and how the profile of that would change

with the additional runway.

Obviously, there is potentially quite a significant difference

between the two proposals, because if you're only

putting narrow bodies off the new runway,

and depending on which way everybody's going out,

a 737 has much less noise impact than, say, a 777 or a 380.

Again, as someone who lives under one of the flight paths,

I know this from experience.

And I know that you were going to say as well that that's partly an issue for the aircraft

fellas and getting those engines more efficient and more quiet at that stage of the climb.

But I think that is going to be important in terms of the volume that we're going to

see.

And if we could have a look at that quite specifically linked to the geographic locations

in Buckinghamshire rather than in the abstract, I think that would be very helpful.

So there's the volume question.

that profile, I'm genuinely curious if you put a short runway in that position, is that,

you know, that could potentially even mean we have fewer heavy aircraft travelling over

bugs. But not just the volume, the reach as well, because presumably if you've got a higher volume

of aircraft coming out and going in, you're then going to have to sort of spread the, you know,

stacks and holding circles and everything a bit further out. So there's potentially more

of Buckinghamshire that's gonna be affected by that.

So I'd be very interested to see a bit more info

on that in future.

Back on the ground, I think there's very salient points

that have been raised about the impact,

both of the new terminal once it's been completed,

but also the construction.

And I do think we need to look at those separately

because obviously, as I said at the beginning,

we're very used to these major infrastructure projects.

We understand how staging works,

and you can have profoundly different effects

at different stages.

So what would we be looking at in terms of the transport

impact of the construction stage?

How much stuff would you potentially be routing on

on local roads compared to the motorway network,

particularly if you are going to have to either

very much limit or even potentially close,

which you may have to do if you're remodelling

an entire junction, sections of the M25.

And when you're undertaking work like that,

what have you done to model the implications of that

for local roads in Buckinghamshire,

but presumably in other places as well?

Then later, what is the implication in terms of that

sort of long -term change in flows of traffic?

You've mentioned trying to minimise the number of

passengers coming to the airport by car,

But actually I think what Councillor Matthews highlighted,

which is really important, is that the freight

and the cargo element is a big deal for us in Bucks

because we've got a lot, a lot of HGV traffic

on our roads already.

And so any routing of additional HGV traffic

through Buckinghamshire is gonna have

a disproportionate impact compared to a lot of places.

And particularly in Iver where we know we've got a rail head

where people might start looking to be transferring things

from the airport to there,

that could create a massive additional strain

on roads in the south of the county.

So there's the transport impact in the air,

the transport impact on the ground,

both of which I think is gonna be really important,

both of which need to be segmented into, you know,

construction and then sort of long -term ongoing,

which would be really, really helpful.

I'm not gonna press, I think, on the more existential

question of whether we should be having

if they're the runway or anything like that,

I think that is a decision that is well out of our hands.

But there are obviously going to be

some very significant impacts for residents in Bucks.

And I am encouraged by what you said today about,

let's be perfectly honest.

And what's actually happened with the DTO process

is the government, in its desire to shove stuff through,

has basically removed most if not all of the responsibilities that you would have

previously had under that process. That I think is appalling. What I think is

encouraging is that you're choosing to look at that as an opportunity to do

things better because it's a bit less set. So I do think again Councillor

Matthews mentioned you know that information that's coming out to local

residents particularly in the IVAs which will be by far the most impacted is

It's hugely important.

I think we as an authority would be happy to have a chat about what the best way of

disseminating that information might be.

And if we can be helpful in that, we absolutely will be.

And that sort of, that level of engagement, you know, as much as we can possibly get,

again, very happy to try and help facilitate that to make sure that we're getting local

residents the opportunity to get in a room with some of your representatives and ask

some of these questions as well.

So transport impact is going to be a big thing for us,

as I say, in the air and on the ground.

And I think that level of interaction,

which we would like to be as high as possible,

as I say, I appreciate, you know,

timescales on this potentially are going to be a lot shorter.

And that's, I think, probably the last thing

I'd ask the question about, which is that,

do you have, given the changes that have occurred,

do you see a contraction of the speed

at which determination on this could be made?

Or is it still very much wrapped up in the details?

So I'll take the last one first.

So I think, who knows where the government's timetable is.

They've made no, since the change is at the top,

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 2:05:19

there's been no public announcements

made on the third runway.

All we've heard is that the designation

that was due to have taken place in November this year

is being pushed back into early next year.

I was told January, someone else has been told February.

So I don't know, but that's,

it seems that the, where the accelerator was hard

on the accelerator from government,

it now seems to have come off a bit.

How much has come off, I can't tell you.

So I guess in the budget,

yeah, we're all looking to the budget, I suppose,

the big announcement as to what they say in the budget

to the runway and stuff.

For me, a more considered project may be a better one.

So that may be out for the government,

but let's see what they say.

In terms of the two strategic points,

in terms of modelling stuff,

yeah, we need to do all the modelling,

and we're starting to do all the modelling,

so we're building a kind of sophisticated transport model,

integrated with public transport and road

and what have you.

So we are building that to see what the impacts are.

And that will include freight as well.

But we need to test the freight,

because I think it's perhaps not gonna be

as high as maybe has been suggested publicly

by certain parties.

In terms of the air, yeah, that's an interesting one

because that's not part of us and the promoter.

So that is being dealt with by NEL and UCATS.

So they are doing that as a completely separate exercise.

And I'm not sure a lot of people know that,

which is, you know, because that's gonna be

quite controversial, I suspect,

where the planes actually fly.

so we've got no control over the airspace modernization.

Of course, we will give our runway configuration,

as will HAL, but in terms of who designs that,

that is for UK ads, and know to come up with

and modernise airspace.

In terms of stacks, just picking up that one particular

point, I know from modernization perspective,

it's interesting what you learn about these things,

but so stacks are bad from a non -frame perspective,

but also quite environmentally bad,

And so what they're trying to do as part of the design

is remove stacks.

That's one of the biggest problems for airlines as well,

because they don't want to be stacked.

So I know that Europe has made a lot of improvements

in terms of travel between Europe.

The issue is outside of Europe.

So believe it or not, when an aircraft takes off

in the States, it will take off without having

a landing slot.

And so they'll literally radio out and say,

we're on our way, can you find space for us?

Whereas when you're in Europe, they will phone up

where they're going to, and they will know

they've got a slot before they take off.

So that, you can see there's some behaviours

and stuff that needs to happen worldwide to,

and this is a global problem in terms of stacking,

but it's a particular problem for the UK.

We've got the most congested airspace in the world.

So yeah, so that is a live issue.

So I'm expecting that, you know, the likes of NIRL

and new cads will sort of come up with procedures

around the world which then mitigate

all those type of stuff.

But it's outside of our control.

Can I just very quickly, one more thing I'd like

to just tack on in terms of stuff that we could

Cllr Thomas Broom - 2:08:39

come back in future with is the jobs and skills position

because obviously it's gonna be quite a big

construction project and then it's gonna be

a newly operating terminal.

I think we would be very keen as much as we can

to make sure that we're getting some local people

into those jobs, because they will be presumably

good, well -paid jobs, and indeed skilling people up

to help out.

I think we could probably be particularly helpful

to that on the construction side.

And can I just also say that if we've got another section

coming up, we've had some more detailed elements raised

in terms of things like air quality, noise pollution,

and a few other bits and pieces.

And obviously we talked about the traffic.

Would it be possible, a future session,

for you to bring some of your technical experts along

who might be able to help answer some of those questions

so that we can really get into the nitty gritty?

No, I'm quite good at high level,

but as soon as you get into detail, that's not me.

So we have some lots of techy people,

Carlton Brown - CEO, Heathrow west Ltd - 2:09:48

hundreds of techy people working on this stuff

who are doing noise modelling and air quality

and all that sort of stuff.

That is certainly not me.

Sorry, yeah.

Sorry, I was just going to come in.

I mean, years ago when we built our Intercontinental

Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group - 2:10:01

at the O2, I insisted with Belfer Beatty

that they had to bring in at least 25 young apprentices

through Prince's Trust.

As an organisation, as a company,

our first intention is always to try and employ folks locally.

The other thing I've always said to Ann Davie,

my HR director, she's been with me 22 years,

Ann, don't feel sorry for someone,

but also make sure you offer opportunities to anyone

if they should be disabled

or any other learning disability.

Let's offer them a job if they want to work.

If it takes us twice as long to train them,

I'm very happy to put the investment in

through all our properties.

Just getting back to Carlton and I

were having a debate on the way here,

and I was saying, Carlton,

the whole world is so different now.

You mentioned the 380s.

By the time either of these schemes come in

and implemented 380 would be gone like the 747s.

So technology's moving quite rapidly, we all know that.

And if you just see in my olden days

when I used to work for British Airways at Heathrow,

I used to watch the old back 111s, they were so noisy,

they had to put the hush kits on the back of the engines

to reduce the noise.

Whether it was the Tridents, whether it was the older,

forget the Concorde, but all these aircraft,

now they're a lot quieter.

And really I do feel genuinely hand on heart,

I love this country and I decided,

I didn't agree any fans here for Rachel Reeves,

but I decided I'm not gonna leave the country,

I'm gonna stay here, pay my taxes,

be with my kids and grandkids.

But on the other hand, we have to also live

in the real world and say, would we rather lose business

to not just air travel, not just for holiday makers,

but businesses connectivity.

We do need to be at the front of the queue

and that's why I think doing it sensibly

and that's why I've got Carlton and the rest of the team,

got hundreds of people working.

The final thing you'll find with us

is that we have no hidden agenda.

We are very open and transparent.

I've always said how smoking mirrors,

you never ever get the direct answer or the truth from them.

We would work with all the authorities,

all the local folks to make sure

that you actually get full visibility.

We may not agree,

and I'm not gonna sit here and make any false promises,

but we will do the best we can that anyone can.

Thank you for that.

And I sum up that thank you for that everybody coming today.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:12:24

I have said at the start of the process we talked to him today.

You will be coming back in the future.

The key to this is communications in it.

So can I just thank you for your time?

Thank you very much.

Apologies.

Can I just give tiny bit of feedback?

It's not criticism in any way and don't please ban me and not come back in.

Surinda Arora - Chairman, Arora Group - 2:12:43

Would love to come back in.

Just a bit of feedback.

I just wish I you know, I don't think the team

Found it difficult to communicate with your team to try and do a five -minute presentation

Had we done the five -minute presentation of some of the answers could have been so we'll always work with you with yourselves

because I think the members would find it useful and

Hopefully in future and I must congratulate you

I think you've got one of the best offices I've ever been in we should have the g7

Cllr David Carroll - 2:13:16

And what I'll say, thanks for that offer, but it actually came in too late anyway, your information.

So in the future, you know the process.

So thank you very much for your time, and we're here for the residents and the questions.

Thanks for that.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Before we have the next item, we've got a public question.

So if you could read your question out or what you want to do, please.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:14:49

Thank you.

4 Public Questions

Public Questions. - 2:14:55

So I'm actively involved in a number of environmental and conservation groups locally in Buckingham,

and I'm a Buckingham town councillor.

Very few people I speak to have heard of the local nature recovery strategy, and it is

never featured in our discussions.

My question is, what are the plans to engage with local environmental groups and town and

parish councils to shape and deliver this strategy?

Is there a draught community engagement plan that could be shared at this stage?

Okay, cabinet member.

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you very much for your question.

I'd also like to thank you for your continued engagement around the LNRS and also your feedback.

Producing the strategy involved extensive engagement with multiple sectors,

which include community groups, environmental organisations, and town and parish councils,

and we'll continue that engagement to support its delivery.

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:15:50

Our current work plan is in line with DEFRA's latest guidance on supporting LNRS delivery,

and includes focused work to increase awareness of publicised LNRS with town and parish councils

in a workshop format, starting towards the end

of this financial year.

So we will be having further engagements

with town and parish councils towards the end of the year,

and we'll be adopting a workshop format.

In addition to that, we'll be publicising a user guide

for the public in the coming months,

with a short summary of the LNRS,

its relevance and how to use it.

We'll also be working closely with conservation

and environmental groups across Buckinghamshire and Milton Keynes through the NETS Nature

Recovery Delivery Group, which is coordinating much of the projects and developments and

alignment work to support delivery of the LNRS.

Would also have an annual forum event to capture the acute from a broader set of organisations

and interests.

If you would like, for the details about the forum event or the delivery partnership groups,

or sign up to the LNRS newsletter, please do email lnrs .bokhamshire .gov .uk.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:17:22

That's fine, and provide a written answer as well perhaps.

Item 7, Local Nature Recovery Strategy.

7 Local Nature Recovery Strategy

Can we remember?

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:17:38

Thank you very much, Chair, and good morning to everybody on the committee.

I'd like to thank you for inviting us to update you on the delivery.

With me today is Claire Bailey, who is the Head of Service for Planning, Growth and Sustainability.

I also have Nicholas Thomas here, who is the partnership manager of the Buckinghamshire

and Milton Keynes Nature Environmental Partnership.

In your pack, you'll see that our update is from pages 33 to 52.

This reports on the progress from the Natural Environment Partnership, which I'll call the

net going forward on the LNRS.

To assist the committee, the NEP is the body the Council has engaged to assist in carrying out the LNRS delivery activities specified by DEFRA.

They are responsible for ensuring that DEFRA's guidance in relation to structuring actions around the four key delivery roles are followed.

They are also responsible for undertaking actions in relation to every of the four key delivery areas

and provide the council with qualitative data as part of an ongoing reporting structure.

They work continuously with Box Council, which is the responsible authority to ensure that the work is in line with the objectives of DevFruz guidance.

I would also assume we've all read the slides, so I would only be drawing attention to certain pages for emphasis purposes.

On page 34, we have captured the goals for the LNRs as contained in the Environmental Improvement Plan 2023,

with the APECS goal being a thriving plant and wildlife population.

You would also see on that slide that goals two, three, and four focus on improving environmental

quality, whilst goals five, six focus on improving the use of resources in the delivery of the

NLRS.

And goals seven and eight focuses on improving our mitigation of climate change.

Goal 9 focuses on improving our biosecurity, and we believe that achievements of all these goals contribute to Goal 10,

which is enhancing beauty, heritage, and engagement with the natural environment.

If I move you on just by reference purposes to pages 35 and 36, you'd see that we have highlighted the background to the development of the LNRS,

while also capturing the required outputs from our LNRS delivery.

On page 37, we've listed the nine themes,

while emphasising that each theme has a number of priorities under them.

Each of these priorities have a number of measures.

In total, we have 21 priorities and 123 measures for the purpose of the LNRS.

We have in pages 38 and 39 described the LNRs mapping tool.

And on page 40, we have captured the government's expectation

of the council for LNRs delivery, which are convening

and leading the delivery partnership.

I can confirm that that's currently ongoing

through the net.

We are also required to embed LNRs in our local decision making.

This is evidence in the current draught local plan.

There is the project development aspect of it.

This is done through the NETS Nature Recovery Delivery Group.

And finally the monitoring and reporting on progress.

This is done via a quarterly report to the Cabinet and will report to DEFRA.

Our first annual report will be due in 2027.

On page 41, we have captured the structure we used

to identify priority strategic projects

and facilitate project development.

As a council, we have agreed an MOU with the net

that the DEFRA funding will be allocated to them to lead the activities required to support delivery on the LNRS.

The MOU clearly sets out all the overall governance goals and delivery support and also a work plan to meet DEFRA's expectation.

At this point, I'll invite Nicola Thomas

to just say a few words on the advisor group

and NEP's current operations.

Sure. Thank you.

Nicola Thomas - 2:22:42

So, yes, on that slide, you can see that there's sort

of full structure of the NEP and how it works and how we've kind

of structured our work around what's required from DEFRA

as has just been mentioned.

So key focus areas, communities of practise

around how we fund nature recovery

and nature recovery delivery group really leading the work on project development.

And we have a farmer advisor network as well.

It's already established to talk to farmer advisors about what landowners can do.

And we've got some targeted work streams coming along to look at how we communicate

and engage communities and the monitoring reporting side.

You'll see on the right -hand side there LNRS advisory group.

That's actually the steering group that was in place for LNRS preparation,

but through the delivery period, we're morphing that into more of an advisory group.

So it's not in the direct reporting line of the delivery structure, but all those people,

technical experts and others from different sectors who are on that steering group will

remain engaged throughout delivery.

And you'll see that the responsible authority, that's Bucks Council, at the top there with

overall responsibility of all of the delivery work for LRS.

Thank you very much, Nicola.

Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager - 2:23:59

So I'm sure the committee will be interested in how will the NRF be used.

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:24:03

The NRS priorities, measures and maps opportunities are available online and can be used by land managers, farmers, organisations, Box Council and other town and parish councils and also community groups.

The online mapping tool allows users to identify suitable nature recovery actions for specific land parcels

and also develop landscape skill projects, support funding applications, access downloadable spatial data.

Options are also being explored to improve integration with the LAND app and other LAND management platforms.

The other question which I'm sure will be of interest to the committee is how will the progress be measured?

To track delivery, NEP is developing an activity mapping tool.

This will enable organisations and land managers to record projects and activities that contribute to LNRs objectives.

From 2027 onwards, Berkshire Council, at responsible authority, will be expected to report progress against the LNRs delivery to DEFRA.

and the activity mapping tool is expected to be launched in

OTHM 2026 and will help capture evidence of nature recovery

activities across the area in line with deference guidelines

on LNRS activity tracking.

On pages 43, 44, 45, and 46, we have identified the implications

of being the responsible authority for the LNRS

on the Box Council.

We have highlighted that on the financial implications, delivery of LNRS priorities

and measures will be via government funding.

And the legal implication, I would also highlight that Box Council must formally update LNRS

every three to ten years.

On page 47, we have captured our communication plan, while page 48 details are out the next

steps within this financial year. I would in wrapping up emphasise that the

delivery of the LNRS is pivotal to the steps we're taking to mitigate our

collective impact on the climate. With the ongoing consultation on the local

plan, LNRS provides an important opportunity to align nature recovery

with the planning system.

I'd like Claire to just say a few words on the alignment

between the LNRS and the draught local plan.

Thank you.

Claire Bayley - Chief Planning Officer - 2:26:59

So the LNRS acts as a guide so the areas of greatest potential

for nature recovery can be reflected in plan making

and decision making.

So it's looking at both sides of that process.

And that as a local planning authority we have to have regard

to the LNRS when we're developing the local plan.

So that's been taken into account in the work

that we've been undertaking for the local plan

for Buckinghamshire.

And it forms an important evidence base

for that local plan development.

It also provides us with a basis for using

within planning decision making.

So to understand where LNRS suggest measures should be taken

for nature recovery across Buckinghamshire,

It identifies strategic important locations for action

and identifies where incentives for BNG outcomes

and green infrastructure networks will deliver

against the LNRS.

So I think, you know, it is a really critical document

and the requirements are that regard should be paid

to the LNRS within that plan making process.

Yes.

Thank you very much Claire.

And we'll have to take questions.

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:28:12

Cllr David Carroll - 2:28:13

Great, thanks very much.

First thing, you mentioned the local plan.

We're aiming to prepare a neighbourhood plan in High Wickham.

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 2:28:29

And as part of that, could we get a presentation of the LNRS in High Wycombe for the High Wycombe Town Committee?

Could we even turn it into a community engagement thing, as on one of the slides here,

where we help create the engagement in High Wycombe maybe over a day,

and have the engagement with the High Wycombe Town Committee at the same time for it?

And in Wycombe, we've already started moving forward to allocate budgets for tree planting throughout streets,

which is partly due to the resilience piece as well,

adaptation to the heat that's coming in the future.

And then we've also been allocating money

for wildflowers and bulbs.

And maybe that could be overlapping partly with this.

In Hazelmere, we run B squared.

And again, if we're doing it for the big parishes,

again, could somebody come and present potentially online,

I suppose, for Hazelmere Parish Council?

And then connected, where does that retain and relocate

and intention within the council fit within the LNRS?

I mean, there's an overlapping of protecting trees and things,

moving them and keeping them on site rather

than allowing them to be cut down.

And how does it overlap as well with our motion on chalk streams

where we've been talking about trying

to defend our chalk streams, clean them up,

protect the water volumes and things?

And then a question I think for the cabinet member.

under the chalk stream motion, have we written the letter?

Has cabinet written the letter to DEFRA

that's meant to be written under it?

And can we get an update generally,

as I've written to you before,

on the retain and relocate and the idling issues?

Well, I'll start with the last question,

which is have we written the letter?

Yes, I can confirm the letter's been written

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:30:16

to the Secretary of State.

It was written through the Leader's Office,

and we've received a response to that as well.

I'm just going to...

I'm sorry, the party will be in the economy phase.

I'm sure we could come back to the chair on that request.

That's fine.

On the question around the neighbourhood plan for High Wycombe and the committee and working with the LNRs, we are happy to support.

We can also look at how we can explore how we can support that.

I'm happy to take that offline as well and discuss how well support we can provide to the High Week

of Town Committee in its development of the neighbourhood plan.

On the tree planting, this is an area that the council is quite keen on and we will continue to protect the trees.

So, and the LNRs as a tool helps in that process.

It's one of the tools we use in determining more or less where those trees will be most suitable for, based on the analysis in there.

And on a specific question which you asked, I'm happy to pass on to Nicola from that.

Around chalk streams.

Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager - 2:31:31

So chalk streams are actually, we have three measures around chalk streams within the local nature recovery strategy, within the sort of one of the water themes.

and a priority being conserve, enhance,

and restore chalk streams.

So that has been captured.

They will see an extremely important

and internationally rare habitat.

So yeah, we've captured them.

And the mapping maps where those measures

are particularly appropriate,

obviously around the chalk stream.

So that's where the LNR does highlight

and does recognise their importance.

Justin.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:32:02

My question really is about the NEP and some of our key delivery partners.

Cllr Justine Fulford - 2:32:08

I've been appointed by this community, so I probably should just declare an interest here,

because I have been appointed by this authority to the Chiltern National Land Safety Conservation Board,

which is one of the partners of the NEP.

It's a statutory body and you'll be aware that it raises a huge amount of money.

It's managed to raise three million pounds of inward investment,

delivering nature recovery with the chalk streams and various other projects.

I don't know if you're aware though that this authority has reduced its contribution towards the statutory body,

which is a key delivery partner.

It requested 60 ,000 pounds for 2627,

up from 55, 25, 26.

It's been granted 41 ,000,

so that reduction is basically a part -time post,

a part -time post which could be spent

making grant applications for this.

I mean, three million pounds is a significant investment.

It's not a grant. This is a statutory duty for this authority to be contributing to the Chiltern National Landscapes.

And there seems to be some confusion about the status of that funding.

Can we commit to giving, I mean it's 50 % of the Chiltern National Landscapes is in Buckinghamshire.

50 % of Buckinghamshire is children national landscapes.

They are a significant player in this,

and I think we need to recognise the investment

that they're raising and support their efforts

to get that in with investment.

I do, thank you very much for that question.

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:34:13

I do, or we do recognise and appreciate

the contributions of the Conservation Board

to protecting our natural areas,

particularly children areas,

and also their contributions on the net board

and their body that we enjoy working with,

and we look forward to continue to work with them.

With regards to the funding, which the council does give,

I am aware of the COT, and I'm aware a letter was written

way in advance to notify the board of that,

I'm aware that they have made requests for further additional funding.

I'm aware that that's also being considered, but due to the financial situation the council

is in, we are stretched financially, hence why we've had to make some tough decisions.

We would like to fund them more, but we have the financial constraints.

if we're able to get more funding from central government,

those will be one of the few organisations

we will be looking to increase the funding for.

But we use this forum once again

to encourage the central government to,

the funds that have been taken away from us,

if we can have that back,

would enable us to do activities

or better improve the chosen areas

through the Conservation Board.

Cllr Justine Fulford - 2:35:47

Thank you, thank you for that. It is the equivalent of cutting a post. This £3 million of inward

investment which may not have been achieved by the NEP or the statutory delivery body

which is this local authority. So it is, you know, they're attaining these grants that

that takes the officer to do that grant application.

And that is a half -time person making grants.

It's a significant cut, and I think it should be seen

in the light of what they can bring in.

Maybe it'd be more than three million pounds

if it hadn't been cut.

But I think you've already given the answer.

Your commitment is if we can get central funding.

Okay, thank you.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:36:32

Yeah.

So, thank you for bringing this to this committee.

It's clearly an important piece of work.

Cllr Anja Schaefer - 2:36:44

I have, after clicking through quite a lot of different documents, finally found the

list of measures.

So, it is there.

I was going to ask about that, but I did find it.

So, that's great.

It does take quite a while to find it, I have to say.

So, I think, you know, an engagement with communities,

which was raised by Ed earlier, was raised by Councillor Haydock.

I think that could be improved, but that's just an observation.

I actually want to ask about the measures,

because they're not measurable measures.

So, they're not smart objectives.

There isn't a timeframe.

There isn't a target.

There isn't concrete action very often attached to them,

unless there is an even bigger document somewhere that specifies this,

in which case I'm very happy to be corrected and taken to it.

But this brings me back to a question that I have raised about nature's

strategy, tree strategy and other respects.

Do we have a baseline of nature

measured by whichever, by biodiversity, by tree cover,

by wetland cover, whatever it is, do we have a baseline

for Buckinghamshire and Milton Keynes?

I mean, obviously, we only look here in this committee

at Milton Keynes.

If not, no, if so, how are we going

to get an update of whether things are actually improving

through the work of the LNRS?

Because it's very easy to put in a lot of management measures.

But if you don't have output measures, you don't know whether it's going in the right direction.

This is, I think, a particularly pertinent question after the summer we've just had.

We only need to drive around and think like we've probably lost biodiversity in the drought.

There's the number of trees which are currently still standing, but some of them we don't know whether they're going to recover.

All the saplings we've planted, my guess, Buckingham,

is 90 % of them have died during the droughts,

freshly planted trees.

It's not just trees.

It's on all these measures.

So I think we can only know whether we are succeeding

if we have actual measures or quantities,

quantifiable and time -based measures.

So I would like us to know what we're doing about that.

Okay, I'll go first.

Thank you for your question.

Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager - 2:39:23

I suppose the place to start with answering all of that is that the LNRS followed a series

of statutory guidelines set out by DEFRA.

It was a stepped process as to what they needed to see in the LNRS and what needed to get

published.

So, all the documents that you've trawled through and you've found the priorities and

measures list, which is great, that's all conformed to what we were required to do by

DEFRA.

What we are doing and in the process of creating are some user guides, some two, three side

guides to the LNRS targeted to different sectors.

They'll be released, first batch is going to be released very shortly so that it becomes

a bit more user friendly so people can find those priorities and measures much more easily.

The measures themselves, again, conform to what DEFRA wanted

to see in LNRSs, and they've been

through extensive stakeholder engagement,

formal public consultation, and DEFRA panels.

So the measures are what DEFRA wanted to see

and how they're set out.

In terms of the baseline, again, there is a baseline map

in the LNRS showing areas that are important

for nature right now, capturing sort of local sites

and important areas, again, in line with all the DEFRA

statutory requirements as to what they wanted to see set

out in that baseline mapping.

The written documents as well also outline what we have

in the county and what's important,

as well as looking ahead as to areas

of particular importance in the future.

So we have that in terms of baseline.

In terms of actually identifying progress towards the LNRs

in the future, DEFRA, again, has set out just in May some guidelines

as to what it wants reported.

And it is an activity -based reporting requirement around projects

and activities that are taking place towards LNRs recovery.

They do say, and they have said to us, that they're looking

at potential opportunities for impacts reporting,

but at the moment the requirement remains

activity tracking.

I have a very quick follow -up on this one, please.

Very quick follow -up.

Yeah.

Cllr Anja Schaefer - 2:41:42

So I understand that.

I understand the activity -based reporting.

I also understand that we have followed instructions

from DEFRA for it.

For anybody who's genuinely interested in nature recovery,

that is however slightly disappointing because, I mean,

that might be because the DEFRA guidelines are not what they

should be, and that is a measure or is something for DEFRA

to take into account.

But if we have, if it's only activity -based, we still don't

know whether we're moving in the right direction.

We have large areas identified as potential for improvement.

But just because we've done a little bit in one of them,

and we've had a, we might have had, you know,

a backwards movement elsewhere, so the net effect can still have

been detrimental rather than forward movement,

I'll leave it there.

I'll come off my soapbox.

but I think this is quite important.

Just a little bit more, I think it's probably relevant

that the NEP is supporting some work

Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager - 2:42:57

that is being led by the Chilterns National Landscape

on a citizen science led impacts monitoring programme

called Tracking the Impact,

which has been in place for around seven years.

They're looking to try and extend it,

and that is impact based.

We've had some work done, led by the NEP

in the last couple of years to look at whether that is an appropriate mechanism to scale

up across Bucks and Milton Keynes.

And the conclusion of that work is it is appropriate.

So we're now looking at how we seek funding to try and get that programme extended.

So that's, we are completely aware that impacts monitoring would be preferable.

But obviously the requirements are that we don't need to do that.

But in actual fact, the NEP is looking for funding for extending that work.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:43:47

And I ought to start off by also saying that I should have declared an interest.

Cllr Gregory Smith - 2:43:50

I'm also an appointee, a Buckinghamshire appointee to the Chiltern Conservation Board, and also

shocked at the reduction of funding, given the hundred -fold return on our investment

that we get from the money that we put into the Conservation Board, particularly in terms

of farmer clusters and the other work they're doing.

But that's not my question.

My question really is a concern, I guess.

Just on Sunday, the consultation closed on the national plan

for Buckinghamshire.

And it feels as if there's a real danger.

And I was trying to struggle, really struggling,

to try and look at the linkages between the two plans

and really finding it very difficult to find

proper linkages.

And wondered, it looks as if the local plan for Buckinghamshire

may well be driving a coach and horses

through our local nature recovery plan.

and I wondered if you could reassure me that that isn't going to happen,

but also in terms of the massive development that we're having in Buckinghamshire.

Do we have sufficient ecologists working within our teams

who can actually enforce some of the BNG requirements within new developments

so that we know it actually carries out?

And it was just so recently I was looking at a report from,

I can't remember what they're called.

Nature laws or nature justice or an organisation,

it was conducted by Sheffield University,

that would show that the actual return

from developer promises on BNG,

they deliver something like 50%.

Maybe part of that is because the trees are all dying

and they're not replacing them.

I've certainly seen evidence of that

and can give you plenty of evidence of that.

But it just seems as if wishing that things happen

isn't sufficient.

We need to monitor, and we need to control,

and we need the resources within our teams

and able to do that.

But also, we need to ensure that these plans, all of our plans,

are properly aligned.

Thank you so much for those two key questions.

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:45:58

I'd like to first reassure the committee

that there is alignment between the NNRS and the local plan.

And also we do have ecologists who can enforce the BNG.

For details I'll just ask Claire to just say a few more words.

Claire Bayley - Chief Planning Officer - 2:46:17

So within any planning permission that's granted

that secures net gains or other Section 106 related

contributions or delivery of infrastructure,

There is an associated monitoring fee with those section 106s, so we do monitor the delivery

against the section 106s within the council, but we have got a large ecology team and bad

first and net gain officers within the team to support on that part.

Finally, sorry about that Wendy, I didn't see you put your hand up.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:46:53

Thank you.

You say that your nature projects online brochure

will have a formal launch in September 26.

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 2:47:02

So when is that and what is it going to look like

and how are local communities and local councillors

going to be involved?

I think for that question as well,

which I think it's very important on our way forward.

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:47:16

There are plans, there's a communication plan as well

in the documents we've shared,

but I'll invite Nicholas to just shed more light on that

and also on the, yes, and also on the Chilterns Board.

Okay, thank you.

I should also declare an interest,

Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager - 2:47:31

because I'm also a board member

of the Chilterns National Landscape,

so just to make sure that that's documented.

In answer to your question,

the Nature Projects online brochure

that the NEP has developed will be going to formal launch

on the 22nd of September at a corporate nature network

inaugural event at the Waddesdon Estate,

where we've invited a selection of different sectors

of businesses with interests across Bucks and Milton Keynes,

so that's the geography of the LNRs to come along,

and we've been putting that brochure together

to launch to them to engage them in sort of activity

to support nature recovery.

I think the report put forward did have a screenshot

of what that webpage looks like,

and in fact, it's already,

there has been a kind of soft launch,

it's up and live on our pages,

but we'll be doing the formal launch on the 22nd of September.

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 2:48:30

So what about engaging the local communities in Buckinghamshire with this?

Because you're talking about businesses and things like that. What about the community?

Nicola Thomas - Natyral Environment Partnerships Manager - 2:48:41

Okay, so we have a programme of work outlined that has recently been agreed with the council,

which includes how we target and engage different sectors,

including all of those that were engaged in LNRs preparation.

So communities, town and parish councils.

And again, that will be through the annual nature forum process

where we invite, it was going to be here,

we invite different organisations across different sectors to come along,

hear about the LNRs, talk to us about what they're doing,

try and find some common ground on potential new projects, gaps,

and do a thorough exploration of how to deliver the LNRs collectively.

We've also got the user guides that I mentioned before

that we're putting together that will be coming out very shortly.

There's some comms on social media, but we've also got an LNRS newsletter coming out as well.

So all of that can be signed up to if you'd like further details, I'm happy to provide.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:49:39

Yeah, I think to circulate all that information back to us, it would be most appreciative.

I mean, this is a public domain.

So, and the question was really good, actually.

No more questions.

Can I just say that this is so important to us, this subject,

and thank you to all the hard work you put into it,

and you will be coming back in the future, aren't you?

So, thank you for that.

Thank you.

Yes, look forward to that.

And can I just also reassure the committee that trees

Cllr Adekunle Osibogun - 2:50:08

that we do monitor trees, and any one that we need

to replant it will be replaced,

just to give that reassurance as well.

That's great, thank you.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:50:15

Thank you.

Can we move on to the work programme?

8 Work Programme

You'll probably see that we've already got three subjects on for the next meeting.

So, you're happy with that?

And we are always looking for...

I'm looking at you, looking for ideas in the future.

But obviously, we've got a packed agenda.

I know we do.

And I also know, I mean I've circulated this beforehand,

Cllr Anja Schaefer - 2:50:43

I felt that after the summer we've just had,

and the winter we might very well have,

so we are, water is becoming a real pressure point.

It's going to be a pressure point

in delivering the local plan.

It's a pressure point for the nature recovery strategy.

It's a pressure point everywhere, both in terms

of wastewater capacity and in terms of, in fact,

fresh water resources.

And in the light of this, whether it would be possible

to ask the water companies to come back again and give us

an update of how they've handled the situation

over the exceptional drought that we've had,

but which is not going to be exceptional going forward.

And I did say the water companies, it might,

if possible, also be helpful.

this has just occurred to me, that we might invite the Environment Agency as well on this

one. This is abstraction from streams, it's the state of the aquifers, it's sewage discharge

particularly in dry weather, which is illegal, but which across the country has happened,

so an update on this I think would be very appropriate for this committee to have.

I'd like to second that, but I'd also like to extend a little bit. I mean, is there some

Cllr Gregory Smith - 2:52:03

way that we can look at our own planning objectives in terms of water retention.

We spend an awful lot of time in planning decisions about how we deal

with floodwater, but we don't have any conception about why how we should be

trying to retain water to be used during during drought periods. Just recently we

approved motorway service station that is going to use 17 million litres of

water just flushing toilets each year, nothing is going to be, there's no grey

water facility there at all, shockingly. It just feels as if we as a community, as

a county ought to be thinking a little bit more particularly in supporting our

our agriculture, our small farmers, about how we can find ways to enable us to

retain floodwater rather than face the boom bust.

Probably be next year, but I think it's all been minutied.

I totally agree with that.

Cllr David Carroll - 2:53:02

So, I mean, water is so important at the moment

and what we're having climate -wise.

Ed, you got another?

Yeah, I mean, just building on top of that thing,

I think we probably need a session on resilience,

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 2:53:12

you know, community resilience and nature resilience

and what we're doing on it, which is, you know, water,

it's cool zones, warm zones, it's trees and streets.

But what's the council doing?

So if somebody ever is responsible

in the council overall for resilience,

can we get a presentation on it

and actually understand what we're doing.

What was the other one I wanted to mention?

Yeah, then I did write to Addy actually

about an update on the motions.

We have quite a lot of motions that come through council

presented by different parts of the council

and stuff like that.

Often go through unanimous in the end

when we've discussed them and things.

So we've had them on idling,

we've had them on retain, relocate on trees,

we've had them on the chalk streams.

And then, you know, it sort of goes dead

and we never hear what happens after that.

Does anything happen within the council?

Could we get back over the last couple of years

pick out these motions that we've all supported

virtually unanimously and find out what the updates

are on them.

And we don't really need a presentation.

Maybe we just need a written update

from those responsible to the committee.

Great.

Yeah, back on the flooding and resilience.

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 2:54:21

In Chesham, we've had a flood problem for a long time.

Cllr Justine Fulford - 2:54:24

It's this authorities statute,

it's the flood authority with the environment agency.

There's a volunteer group which has completely mitigated

the effect of flood waters.

It's carried out work with Buckinghamshire Council's

permission, but no contribution,

and completely mitigate, there is no flooding anymore.

That's work that should have been carried out

by the Buckinghamshire.

I don't know if there's a potential to devolve

that sort of thing down to the local,

if there's a plan, if this council has a plan

for mitigating floods, which it should.

We can't find the one for there.

It was proposed by the local voluntary group.

There are at least three sections that I can think of

where this is the case.

Just in Chesham, we should be delivering,

you know, the question of whether that could be devolved

down to these community groups for a contribution.

There are significant expenses involved with the...

Thank you.

9 Date of Next Meeting

Cllr David Carroll - 2:55:42

Thank you.

Cllr Steve Bowles

Conservative

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Cllr Thomas Broom

Conservative

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Cllr David Carroll

Conservative

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Cllr Michael Collins

Conservative

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Cllr Caroline Cornell

Conservative

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Cllr Justine Fulford

Liberal Democrats

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Cllr Ed Gemmell

Independent

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Cllr Andy Huxley

Conservative

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Cllr Peter Martin

Conservative

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Cllr Wendy Matthews

Conservative

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Cllr Adekunle Osibogun

Conservative

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Cllr Anja Schaefer

Liberal Democrats

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Cllr Gregory Smith

Green Party

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Interactive webcast player

Transport, Environment, Communities & Climate Change Select CommitteeTuesday, 8th September 2026 at 10:00am

Cllr David Carroll - 0:00:00

Cllr David Carroll - 0:00:30

Sally Moore - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:00:38

1 Apologies for Absence

2 Declarations of Interest

Cllr David Carroll - 0:00:45

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

5 Anti-Social Behaviour and Crime

Cllr Steve Bowles - 0:01:35

Sara Turnbull - 0:03:27

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:05:30

Abdul Rahim - 0:06:14

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 0:11:08

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:26:13

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:35:46

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:36:10

Cllr David Carroll - 0:38:00

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:38:04

Cllr David Carroll - 0:39:33

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:39:52

Cllr David Carroll - 0:40:43

Cllr Michael Collins - 0:40:55

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:42:17

Cllr Michael Collins - 0:43:00

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:43:10

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 0:44:02

Cllr David Carroll - 0:44:41

Cllr Justine Fulford - 0:44:49

Cllr David Carroll - 0:48:48

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 0:48:56

Cllr David Carroll - 0:50:36

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 0:50:39

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 0:52:37

Cllr David Carroll - 0:54:07

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:54:14

Cllr Steve Bowles - 0:54:50

Cllr David Carroll - 0:55:31

Cllr Ed Gemmell - 0:55:36

Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support - 0:56:14

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:57:06

Cllr David Carroll - 0:58:50

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 0:58:53

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 0:59:56

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:01:56

Cllr David Carroll - 1:02:41

Cllr Anja Schaefer - 1:02:47

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 1:04:51

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:04:53

Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support - 1:07:36

Cllr David Carroll - 1:08:21

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:08:29

Cllr David Carroll - 1:09:27

Cllr Gregory Smith - 1:09:32

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:12:08

Sara Turnbull - Service Director for Strategy, Improvement and Community Support - 1:12:58

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 1:14:57

Cllr David Carroll - 1:15:53

Cllr Steve Bowles - 1:16:01

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:16:31

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:16:37

Cllr Gregory Smith - 1:17:50

Inspector Harry Gehnich - TVP - 1:17:55

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:18:29

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:18:47

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:18:49

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:18:52

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:19:21

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:19:23

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:19:36

Abdul Rahim - Community Safety Manager - 1:19:48

Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:20:02

Chief Inspector Alexander Ash - TVP - 1:22:16

Cllr David Carroll - 1:24:06

Cllr Steve Bowles - 1:24:09

Cllr David Carroll - 1:24:31

6 Heathrow Expansion Programme

Cllr David Carroll - 1:27:24

Cllr Peter Martin - 1:27:50

Transport, Environment, Communities & Climate Change Select Committee
Tuesday, 8th September 2026 at 10:00am