Children’s & Education Select Committee - Thursday 10 September 2026, 10:00am

Children’s & Education Select Committee
Thursday, 10th September 2026 at 10:00am

Speaking:

Start of webcast

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Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Phil Gomm

1 Apologies for Absence

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Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer
Cllr Phil Gomm

2 Declarations of Interest

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Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Alan Sherwell
Cllr Phil Gomm

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

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Minutes of Previous Meeting

Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Cllr Phil Gomm
Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Maz Hussain
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Frank Mahon
Cllr Alan Sherwell
Cllr Larisa Townsend
Clive Jones
Cllr Phil Gomm

7 Ofsted/ILACS Focus Visit Verbal Update

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Cllr Carl Jackson
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Frank Mahon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Phil Gomm

5 Youth Justice Plan 2026 - 2029

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Cllr Carl Jackson
Cllr Phil Gomm
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Cllr Carl Jackson
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Phil Gomm
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Frank Mahon
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Alan Sherwell
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Larisa Townsend
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Larisa Townsend
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Cllr Phil Gomm
Clive Jones - Parent Governor Co-Optee
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub
Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention
Cllr Phil Gomm

6 Update on SEND

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SEND Update

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Carl Jackson
Cllr Phil Gomm
Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI
Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist
Cllr Phil Gomm
Clive Jones - Parent Governor Co-Optee
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Larisa Townsend
Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Carl Jackson
Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI
Cllr Larisa Townsend
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Alan Sherwell
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Frank Mahon
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Carl Jackson
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Kathy Gibbon
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Caroline Cornell
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Cllr Phil Gomm

4 Public Questions

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Public Questions
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Carl Jackson
Public Questions
Cllr Phil Gomm

6 Update on SEND

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SEND Update

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Larisa Townsend
Cllr Carl Jackson
Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services
Cllr Phil Gomm

8 Work Programme

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C & E Select Work Programme Sept 26 - April 27

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Alan Sherwell
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Phil Gomm
Public Questions
Cllr Wendy Matthews
Cllr Phil Gomm
Cllr Niknam Hussain
Cllr Phil Gomm
Webcast Finished

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Disclaimer: This transcript was automatically generated, so it may contain errors. Please view the webcast to confirm whether the content is accurate.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00

Good morning everyone and welcome to the Children's Services and Education Select Committee.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:15

We've got a very intense full agenda today so we will crack on as quick as we can, but

we do have a few housekeeping issues as we get started.

The public and the press are able to attend this meeting in person or watch in the meeting

through the webcast. In the unlikely event if there's a technical issue with the webcast,

the meeting will be paused until resolved. And just to cheque that the agenda papers have

been published on the Council's website in accordance with usual practise. We have a

few members of public in the room. Are you happy that the webcast is on? It records us

as we talk. Are you quite happy with that? Very good as well. And another one, remember

mobile phones off please or on silent mode and anyone in the public no photos

and video recordings while you're in here although you can get off webcast a

little bit later just to be be sure on that good and in the event of a fire

which we haven't had but touch wood if that does happen everyone vacates the

room there or to the left or to the right and meet out in the front car park

That doesn't happen hopefully, but you never know.

So we carry on to item one on the agenda is the apologies for absence and changes of membership.

1 Apologies for Absence

Katie, have we got any apologies please?

Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:01:43

Thank you Chairman, we have apologies from Co -op T Tony Wilson and Councillor Jilly Jordan.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:48

Thank you very much.

We've not heard from Councillor Hussain and Councillor Hussain too,

Nick Nam and Mads, haven't, okay.

Thank you very much.

It is bad, yeah, we, but then, yeah, it is bad.

We would experience that on an early morning like everybody in

Buckinghamshire as they go around.

2 Declarations of Interest

So there we go on to item two, which is the declarations of interest. Members, any declarations you'd like to

tell us please. Everyone shaking head? Councillor Gibbons?

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:02:26

Yes, I don't know if I really need to, but just for transparency, I'm now a Governor for the Kingsborough School.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:31

Very good. I hope you enjoy your governing there and

I'm sure you'll help them through the process of the school requirements as it goes on. Very good.

Yes, Councillor Sherwell?

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:02:46

Same thing, School Governor.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:48

I love this. I think we should all be School Governors at the end of the day.

But very good. Thank you very much, Councillor Sherwell.

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Then we continue on the agenda, which is the minutes.

Everybody would have received those. It would have been in the agenda, Pat, there.

Committee, have you read the minutes and would you agree those minutes of the last meeting?

Great, thank you very much. So we'll sign those off for you.

There we go. No, you're fine. We know the traffic's bad, so we had that.

Do you want me to sign you a page?

Oh yes, please.

Okay, there we go.

So, as we continue on to the agenda, but first before we do, I think we ought to go around

the room, but firstly everybody, colleagues, I'd like to introduce you to Clive Jones,

who's one of the co -optees.

He and I have spoke.

I've just been going back to the co -optees to ask them to come.

And Clive and I have had a great conversation.

And I know that Clive's going to give a massive input

into this select committee.

So help him as he travels into the journey working with us.

He's very, very passionate about being a school governor,

like most of them are.

But he has some very special points

that he's going to help on this committee.

But welcome to you

Good

Right. So we quickly go around the room said one knows who we are

I'll start with the cabinet member

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:04:58

Good morning. Thank you chairman members Carl Jackson. I'm the cabinet member for education and children's services

officer

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:05:07

Thank You chair, Eric, I'm a corporate director for children's services. I've come around this way

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 0:05:12

Thank you. I'm the vice chair of the committee and I'm the board member

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:05:17

Hello Philip, I've got my chair this meeting and I look after the Quaiton Ward.

Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:05:20

Katie Dover, Senior Scrutiny Officer.

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:05:22

Hazel Arthur Hewitt, Council Member for Downley Ward.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:05:28

Paul Vizzaro, Sloane Trisham South.

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:05:33

Caroline Cornell, Unitry Council Member for Newton Longville Ward and Bunslow Town Council.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:05:40

Good morning the Cathy Gibbon, Councillor Forbiddon, Kingsbrook and Wing.

Cllr Maz Hussain - 0:05:45

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:05:47

Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:05:50

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:05:54

Nick Namse, representing Aylesbury South West. Frank Mahon, representing Grendel on the Wood

and the Chains Ward. Alan Sherwell, Aylesbury West.

Larissa Townsend, Member for Flakwell Heath and the Wobins.

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:06:06

Clive Jones - 0:06:09

And Clive Jones, Parent Governor, Co -opT.

Very good, thank you very much.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:06:13

And we do have another colleague from Council that's going to be doing a public question.

We do have a member from the public too.

Nick Nam -Hussein, welcome. I know you got caught up in traffic, but you also had a very busy day yesterday, like many of us.

But good to see you yet again.

But good.

Hopefully, Matt's saying we'll be able to turn up as well, but I know that he's got

trouble on his journeys.

Moving on to item four of the agenda is public questions.

Councillor Stutchbury has a public question.

Councillor Stutchbury, what I'm going to do is, because we're talking on SEND, yours is

really probing to SEND well, I'm going to reserve that to the SEND section, which is

be very shortly because then we're in the mode of talking. I hope you're happy with that. Very good

and the question is there so your Councillor Stutchbury will present that for us. Just for

members of the public and committee, we're changing the rest of the agenda slightly due to traffic

problems and with some of our officers that can't get here and I want them here, like you want them

here to discuss the justice plan and also send.

So what we're going to do, because the members here now

can talk about the OSTED and ILX focus visit,

we're going to do that first.

I hope we're all going to agree to do that.

And to members of the public that are watching in

or are going to miss this,

that would have been looking later,

they will be able to rerun the webcast

and have a look and see what members and us say.

So, they're not the public one itself.

So, on that note, I'm going to hand over to the cabinet member

and Aaron Albert, sorry, I'll catch up with myself in a minute.

We're going to hand it over to you to talk

about the Austin and Ileach's focus visit.

Thank you.

7 Ofsted/ILACS Focus Visit Verbal Update

Yeah. Thank you, Chairman.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:08:18

I think it's obviously a fairly short document.

The focus visit looks specifically at children

who are the subject of children in need

or child protection planning.

A focused visit, I think it's important

to make the distinction, is not an inspection.

It is a sort of a short visit looking at a sort

of narrow set of issues.

So it doesn't come with any offset kind of rating or grade,

but you do get, as members will have seen in the PAC,

a short letter which effectively gives a summary

of what they think the strengths are in terms

of the council's performance and what they think of the areas

for improvement.

The positives, which members will have picked up on,

I think high praise for a visible

and experienced leadership team came out very strongly.

High quality of assessment,

a better consistency of supervision.

I like seeing praise for consistency

because one of the biggest comments you get in there is

for improvement when it comes to these type of reports is, yes,

there's some good practise,

but it needs to be consistently good every case.

And so I was pleased to see praise

for consistency on that score.

There are a number of areas identified for improvement.

I thought there were some practical suggestions

from Ofsted in there as well as kind of, you know,

try and be great all the time.

I think there was praise for timely decisions,

which is helpful.

And I think what was why I also took from it was

that while there were areas for improvement identified,

Ofsted, the Ofsted inspectors also said there are strong

foundations within the service to deliver on that improvement.

So, I will just end, the Chairman and I were saying my thanks as always to Ofsted for their

feedback and their visit and to the Children's Services team who are demonstrating to Ofsted

and more importantly demonstrating to families in Buckinghamshire that we are heading in

the right direction, we're improving and we're keeping working at improving further.

Happy to take any questions.

Thank you.

Errol, would you like to follow up?

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:10:16

Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:10:19

Mr Chairman, could I ask that the microphones are brought closer to the nucs, pretty hard

to hear.

Yeah, okay.

No thank you, sure, I think the Councillor's covered well, so thank you.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:10:29

Thank you very much.

Yeah, as Councillor just said, if we can all make sure our microphones are a little bit

closer and it makes it a little bit easier.

I think mine's okay.

I know how to project it into that thing, so very good.

So over to questions.

I know that Councillor Aslam would like to start first.

We spoke about it earlier.

Over to you, sir.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:10:53

Thank you very much, Chairman.

And thank you, Councillor Jackson.

I'd like to ask the question, what are the areas

of inconsistencies in planning for children who are the subject

of child protection or child in need planning, please?

Sorry, Councillor, would you mind repeating the question?

Yes, so what are the areas of inconsistencies

in planning for children who are the subject

of child protection or child in need planning?

So, thank you, Councillor.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:11:29

The theme of this focus visit was for all children

who are subject to child need plans and child protection plans and subject to plans where

there is a need for help and protection.

I just want to pull out the point that was mentioned earlier on by Councillor Jackson

that in the main, the plans that were seen, that there was a strong progress in terms

of planning for children, which means in terms of the relationships that social workers develop

with the children in order to do direct work with them and to ensure that their needs are

being met as part of that multi -agency plan.

Where the inconsistency came in was just effectively some

of the details in relation to what constitutes that plan.

And where some of the inconsistencies including putting

in reference to the child's lived experience.

So what the focus visit identified was

that some plans were better than others in terms

of our practitioners of which there are

around 80 social workers within the service.

Some practitioners were recording the child's lived experience better than others, potentially,

as one area where they didn't see as much consistency.

The sample that the focus visits do is not a full inspection, so they only sample a small number of cases, ultimately,

but what they saw was inconsistency in some of the details within those plans.

So that could be everything from, as I've mentioned, the child's lived experience, the child's family,

details around who's available in the extended family or the familial network,

and further details in relation to what really makes up the entirety of that

child's life for us to understand and ensure that we've got the appropriate

plans in place for them. As I said, there was evidence of strong work in terms of

our planning, i .e. the things that we need to achieve to ensure that those

child, that child's needs are met, but in some cases it was perhaps not to the

standard as the national framework would expect or the Ofsted would expect in terms of their

guidance.

Chair, could I just come back on that?

Thank you for that.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:13:35

With the lesson learned from there, I appreciate the fact that the inconsistencies are recognised

and that's the important thing.

And then they're identified and then they've been, can I ask you, have they been implemented

and what success have you had?

Are you confident in moving forward?

The fact that those inconsistencies may not come again.

I know that you can't iron out everything.

I appreciate that.

But my question there is, is that are you confident in what you're doing and what are the results?

Thank you, Councillor Aslan.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:14:09

Yes, I have confidence.

These often provide us a very helpful mirror to how well we are doing.

as you will appreciate and you will see from the Ofsted website

where you can track the journey of Buckinghamshire Children's Services

from the very early Ofsted reports and the full Ofsted inspections.

We have a full Ofsted inspection.

Our last one, as you know, was in January 25,

which set out the larger scale issue in relation to the practise

that we're undertaking with children subject to those plans.

As I've mentioned, this is a very good mirror, if you like,

in terms of the very question that you're asking,

how are we doing?

We are always looking at continuous improvement

and learning from these inspections and these visits.

We have an Ofsted improvement programme, which links

to the training and the supervision

that our social workers get.

Where we see comments around inconsistency,

that falls very much into much of the learning

and the reflection that we do with our practitioners around,

well, this is what it's picked up.

Let's look at what that means.

And then we undertake auditing cycles,

a bit of quality assurance to make sure that we are following

up on these recommendations and that we can see evidence

that what's been picked

up in these focused visits have actually been addressed.

That comes down not just to the practitioner, but it comes

down to the management, senior leadership like myself

where we would do those dip samples if you like,

and we have a quality assurance regime

where effectively I myself look at case work

to make sure on the system that we've got

that quality and consistency.

That's not something that happens overnight.

It's an ongoing task in terms of that continuous improvement.

But in order for us to get to great in terms of our off -stead,

which we all want for our children in Buckinghamshire,

we will continue doing that via our supervision,

our training, and our ordering and quality monitoring processes.

That's a very good answer. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Next is Councillor Arthur Hewitt.

Anyone else?

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:16:16

I know that Councillor Hussain wants to go.

Anyone else?

Put your hand up if you want a question.

Over to you.

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:16:20

Thank you.

So it's similar, but more into the sort of detail,

my question.

So whilst there's some good things reported here,

as you said, it shows a particular children in need

and disabled children in need inconsistency

with plans noted as overly complex with too many actions,

fathers not consistently involved in assessments,

and children experiencing domestic abuse showing an over -reliance

on parents and caregivers to be protective and manage the risk.

Is this something that we already had on our agenda to work towards improving

and that we were fully aware of and were sort of making improvements?

Or is this some of this come in as new and we need sort of a more in -depth process

of how this can be managed on more of a ground level cheque,

rather than relying on audits.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:17:19

So these inspections and focus visits

will always pick up a wide range of issues

in relation to what they find in terms of their case sampling

and speaking to social workers and practitioners

when they visit.

I would say what we do in children's social care prior

to these inspections are a bit of a self -assessment

in relation to areas that we know, as I've mentioned to

Counsellor Aslam, that we know we have a cycle of continuous

improvement and themes that we see from our own auditing

process.

These are nothing new.

There was nothing in this report that surprised us in terms of

the work that we're already doing to improve practise.

The first point you mentioned in relation to, and it's an

interesting one, because the last thing we want to do is set

families, parent carers up to fail and as inconsistency, the

inconsistency piece around lack of detail that was raised.

Equally, the other side of that, the more complex it is,

sometimes we could be seen to setting families up to fail

in terms of too many asks in relation to the plan

and too much onus on the parent to do all sorts of things

with various different partners, et cetera.

So, sorry, you want to come in, Councillor?

Yeah, only because I mentioned that it said

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:18:31

some of the plans were just as overly complex

with too many actions rather than not enough.

I think it's kind of been reversed in what you said in your reply.

What I'm saying is that where it was mentioned previously around sometimes there may not be enough information,

equally there could be too much information in those plans which picks up your points around being too complex.

And obviously when we see plans being too complex, effectively a parent may not know whether they're coming or going,

which professional they're speaking to.

And I've certainly spoken to parents who are meeting with a youth justice worker,

in a meeting with a social worker, in a meeting with somebody from education.

So the work that we're doing is to ensure, again, consistency,

ensuring that we get the right level of detail in those plans that is going

to be more easily translated by the parents so that they can actually put

in place what they need to without tripping them up, if you like.

So the overreliance on parents piece is, again, if there was one area

that obviously we need to now move to in terms of further work with our practitioners.

And it is very much around what are the realistic actions that they can take and what support

we can put in place for those parents to strengthen their ability to care for their children ultimately.

Now that may come in many forms, including some of our early help offer.

You've heard us talk about the Best Start family hubs, et cetera.

So we've just got to be very mindful in terms of,

particularly when it comes to domestic abuse,

putting too much onus on the victim, if you like,

in relation to some of the actions that they need to take

and ensure that agencies are fully aware of the steps

they need to take in order to assist in protecting

or safeguarding the child in that parent's care.

Again, as I've mentioned earlier to conclude,

these are all areas that we continue to work on.

This is another mirror, if you like.

It's a sense cheque of where we are.

We acknowledge that we've got more to do.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:20:30

These issues are in our improvement plan,

and we'll continue to work with our training officers,

our managers, and our practitioners

to develop that practise further.

If I'm allowed to just ask,

do we have any best practise partners

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:20:43

or anyone sort of in situations

that have got outstandings that we...

We do.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:20:49

Very different authorities.

I mean, there's a variety of authorities

and some of those London boroughs,

but we certainly do and we are learning from them all the time.

As much as they are speaking to us about areas of our good practise,

which there is in terms of some of the work we do,

obviously this is about what we need to continue to work on.

But yes, we have forums and we also have our government colleagues

that assist us with good practise guides, etc.

We'll continue to incorporate that learning into our training programmes.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:21:18

Thank you very much.

Shrinkhi, now to Councillor Laidman.

Now, Hussain.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:21:25

The government councillor Jackson was very clear that the direction of travel is a good

direction of travel and the report is a positive report in many aspects. Can you tell us as

Errol has talked about plans and future plans, what the milestones are? So you know, where

you know that you've hit something, you have improved it.

So when the next visit does come,

you know these areas have been looked at.

So are there any milestones in the plan,

and do you know what kind of time you've put on these?

I think, I mean, this is kind of a,

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:22:10

almost like a spot cheque list.

So obviously this, what we have following up

from the main inspection, which had to start the year,

that there is a send improvement, sorry, yeah,

sort of an improvement plan and a strategy, which is kind

of been put in place to respond

to the main OSTED CQC inspection.

And so obviously as we sort of, this is kind of a cheque along

the way with broader strategies of improvement.

I think Elle might be in a better place to talk

about the specific follow -ups to this.

But this is not a sort of a visit where we've suddenly started to react to it and say,

oh, well, we now need to start making these improvements.

This is kind of a useful cheque for us into how we're getting along the way for improvement work,

which is already carrying on.

Thanks, Councillor.

Thanks, Councillor Hussain.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:23:06

I would say that whilst Ofsted and our regulators are one mechanism,

And the only real key mechanism that we really listen to

and want to get out of bed for is what children and families

tell us in terms of how we're doing.

Certainly, the work moving forward

as part of our continuous improvement

is hearing more from the voice of the child.

And again, that voice of the child when it comes into plans

is something that we have to consistently evidence

as part of the work that we do, that our social workers

and family support workers do when they go out to visit them.

So, voice of the child, they're the ones that will tell us that we're doing better.

And we are working on ways to ensure that we engage them appropriately in a way that's

sensitive to tell us about their experience and for them to tell us what's better.

Once we do that, by default, our regulators, Ofsted, will come in and see that as evidence

on our case files.

And that will be one of the most key benchmarks alongside everything else that we do in terms

of reassuring ourselves that we're doing the right thing in the right time.

So our data tells us, for instance, I can look at data and tells me how many social workers have visited the child within the statutory timescales.

I can see how many children have been visited and seen alone to ensure that you've got that voice of the child and there's no influence around them to have that conversation.

So there are our KPIs, if you like, our metrics.

But again, Councillor is saying it's that continuous improvement.

Because right now, we're also faced with significant challenges around the reforms,

reshaping things again within children's social care, which means that some of those

benchmarks may move again in terms of our targets, et cetera.

But again, to me, the main mechanism of how well we are doing is what we hear from our

children, young people, and families.

And that's why that consistency on file about their voice is so important.

I think it's worth adding as well that we would expect possible additional focus visit

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:25:01

before we have another full inspection.

So I suspect we will also get more feedback from Ofsted

ahead of actually the full visit returns in a few,

probably what, three years time.

Well, just on that, sorry, Councillor.

You're absolutely right, Councillor Jackson.

So we probably expect another focus visit

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:25:20

this side of 26 into 27 in advance of a full inspection.

When they come back for the next focus visit,

that might be likely to be a totally different theme.

They may cheque in on how we're doing from the last,

but generally they'll come with another theme.

And that might be children's subject

and neglect plans, et cetera.

But, you know, all of this will be in readiness for

in terms of our AUSTED improvement plan,

which we continue to monitor.

Great. Good. You want to come back?

Yeah.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:25:54

I fully understand the aspect of voice of the child.

I haven't been involved in this in a long time.

The issue there is the parent or the child,

that is their only experience.

They've got nothing to measure it against.

So whether it's a good or bad experience,

that is the experience they're having.

Whether the social worker's doing the visits

or not doing the visits,

that's the experience they're having.

So I respect that and I fully understand

that that's what's got to be the focus.

but also I think, and I'm reassured by what you're saying,

that the Ford plan does have milestones

and you are measuring yourself against those

and seeing that you're achieving those.

So when people do, like you said, hold a mirror to you,

that you can say, no, we were at X before, we're at Y now,

like I said, whereas before we were two weeks out,

now we're on time.

Whereas before the social worker didn't put the plans in,

now they're in and they're supervised

and rubber stamped by a manager.

You understand what I'm trying to say?

So those, the improving bits and pieces are slowly kind

of embedding themselves in.

Yep, and so embedded is the key word.

And again, with the size of us as a council, with the numbers

that we have on our books and the numbers of practitioners,

again, coming back to that consistency is ensuring

that embedding that practise as general good practise

across the whole piece is essential, absolutely.

And I think just in terms of those social work visits,

regardless of which social worker goes,

the main key indicators around whether those visits

and our involvement is impactful and is making a difference.

And again, when we go back to those auditing

and the QA of our files, it's ensuring,

have we moved from point A to point B

in terms of meeting the needs of that child, that family,

to perhaps help them become a bit more resilient,

look at family members to assist in some of the struggles

or issues that they're having and put them on the right path.

So you're absolutely right to raise those points.

Thank you, Councillor.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:27:57

Very good. Thank you very much.

Anyone else? Any questions on this subject?

Very good. Thank you very much for the brief back there.

I would like to just say, before we move on to our next item,

over the last sort of month and a half,

I've had the privilege to go and see as many officers as I like,

which has been very helpful for us to engage and understand how the departments work.

And that work continues, like after these select committees,

I and officers, they can go and see the officers again and we just keep track of what you say.

So I just want you to know as your chair, we continue that work as we go through.

It's great to understand the relationship with the officers, to understand their workload,

is that and that sort of stuff.

And a superb meeting down at MASH this week as well.

It is incredible what goes on in that office

and the way it works.

So thank you for arranging that meeting.

And there are some more meetings coming up

that we would be discussing at the end going to schools.

We've had to put it through offices.

They've checked with schools

and all the different departments

and some of it's been authorised.

So that offer is going to be going out to you all as well.

So, and we're setting up some working groups.

So we are progressing, and that's with the help

of the officers there.

So thank you very much.

Right, so now we go back to the agenda

for those that are looking in.

Like I say, the Offstead and Islands report was brought

forward due to officers with traffic issues,

but they're here.

5 Youth Justice Plan 2026 - 2029

So we're going to move on to the Youth Justice Plan.

I'd like to welcome Clive Seal and Jennifer Halfway.

Good to see you and I'm glad you got through the bucket of traffic eventually because we

would have been stuck ourselves.

So good to see you.

Right, so now we move on to the Youth Justice Plan.

That's going to be led by again our cabinet member, Councillor Jackson and then officers

will join in then.

They're going to help.

So Councillor Jackson over to you, sir.

Yes, thank you, Chairman.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:30:07

Before I start, I'm pleased you had the opportunity to visit the match.

I visited as well and it's a place of real quiet industry and a lot of quick referrals

and action being taken very promptly in response to some quite concerning reports.

It's operating well.

Right, so onto the Youth Justice Plan.

We have a statutory requirement as a council to reduce this plan as members will have picked up.

It's clearly an area where we're working with partners, but the responsibility falls

on the council as a local authority to produce the plan.

The Youth Justice Board is quite prescriptive about the content of the report in terms of

what information we have to provide.

It needs to show progress against a particular KPIs that the Youth Justice Board specifies,

and then we prioritise, well, we explain our priorities for the next three years, although

I would stress that this will be reviewed annually.

So it's not the case of here's a report

and we'll have another look in three years

and see how it's going.

Producing a plan is actually a condition

of the Youth Justice Board grant funding as well,

which is a key element of the funding for this service.

I think the report's pretty clear.

In terms of I won't go through sort of what the key KPIs

and the priorities are because members will have seen it.

I would just conclude by saying I think this is a high -performing service.

You can see from the figures in terms of offending, reoffending custody that figures are heading

the right direction in comparison to not just national but also regional comparisons, which

is always positive to see.

The committee will also be aware that we recently had the inspection of the justice service

from HMIP which rated the service as good and included,

as it always does, areas for improvement, but also a number

of significant positives too.

So at that point, Chairman, I'll hand over to questions.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:07

Are we going to hear from officers too?

I must admit with the result of that report that was done

as good was brilliant.

There's always areas to improve, you know,

within justice is a minefield of its own with public, but over to you sir.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:32:29

Thank you, Chair. Safe to say, just to emphasise before I hand over to questions, ultimately yes,

it was a strong good and this is an area of children's services which is hugely complex,

as you all know. As Chair says, there's always more to do as there is in the wider children's

services as well, but when we're talking about significant vulnerability and areas of exploitation

and the criminal justice element to this, it's incredibly good endorsement in terms

of the recent inspection report.

So we're very proud of that and my thanks to Jenny and the team that brought us to that

position because a lot of work went into it.

So I'm very grateful to them, but I will pause there for questions.

Thank you.

Okay, over to members, if you'd like to put your hands up please.

Everyone, that makes that easy.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:33:22

I knew this would be, okay, I've got everybody there.

Good.

So what I'm going to basically is make it nice and easy.

One question at a time, please.

I will let you come.

I know that one or two you got a few more, but I'll let you come back if I could see

that.

So, Councillor Arthur Hewitt, if you'd like to go first.

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:33:41

Thank you, and as you say, it's a great report on the whole for what has been going on, and thank you for that.

My concern lies with the link between mental health and offending,

and people who are maybe on the CAM's waiting list for neurodivergency or having an ECHP.

What are we doing cross services?

So across the NHS with a mental health provision sign in and with

SEND to address it because there's, I don't know if there's any tie in

and I'd be happy to hear in terms of the weights we experience with

people getting registered as having a need through CAMS or getting a

care provision in school set up because obviously those are the

crucial times in somebody's life, whether in school,

they're struggling, they're waiting for diagnosis,

they may have mental health issues and there's not the

right services to point to that may end up with them

appearing in here where otherwise they might not.

So I'm wondering what goes on across services to actually

work with those services like the NHS, CAMS and everything

to help improve these figures in that area, thank you.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:35:02

I mean, there is undoubtedly, I will let the officers get

into the detail of exactly how the interactions work,

because they'll know that better than I do.

There is undoubtedly work with CAMS.

They are involved in partnership meetings, joint meetings

with these justice service.

I think you mentioned SEND as well.

I think there is, obviously there can be an overlap there

between need for mental health services and SEND needs,

but there was also a separation of those things in terms of sort

of how they're dealt with and send as treated as its own kind

of distinct area where support might be needed

within the Youth Justice Service.

And cameras are all aware

of obviously significant waiting lists.

And like you say, this is an area of risk

where people can be waiting for support

which might have prevented them interacting with,

needing to be engaged by the Youth Justice Service

or interacting with the Youth Justice Service.

In terms of exactly the details of how it works,

Jennifer, you're smiling at me.

Thank you, Councillor.

So once a child is within the youth justice system

and the youth justice service and at the earlier end,

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:36:09

obviously, because we offer prevention support as well,

we within the service already have speech and language

therapists.

And also, we have a counselling worker as well as nurses

as well.

So every single child that comes through the service

is screened at the earliest opportunity.

And then if there's an identified need,

whether they've already settled a waiting list,

or actually if it's something that's not been previously

been picked up, then that support is then facilitated

through the service whilst the child is engaged with us.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:36:39

Counsellor Asler.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:36:41

Thank you, Chair.

My apologies for leaving the thing.

Thank you for the report.

How will the role of volunteers be developed

to facilitate the indirect reparation placements

to increase the value of this for both the child

and the community?

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:37:06

Thank you, Councillor.

So we're really lucky in that we have a large number

of volunteers that support us as a service

and are often very keen to be more involved.

So for us, it's that training element.

It's about making sure that they have the support around them.

So we have over the last year, and you will see in the report, expanded our offer in relation to how we're engaging within communities to identify placements for children to give back to the community following any offence that might have taken place.

Now we've done that piece of work, the next step is then supporting our volunteers that do want to be involved

through training, through extra supervision, through linking children and matching them correctly with a mentor to support with that.

So stage one has been done, the future is stage two.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:38:00

Is there any measurable impact on that?

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:38:04

In relation to the, I can only talk to the fact we've expanded our offer, yes there is, we've had children that since we've expanded and gone back into communities, we're able to say to a child, you know, you might have committed an offence in this area and actually we can now give back directly to that area where you've committed that offence.

We also match with interests and actually the voice of the person that's been harmed

So they are aware of all of the projects that are available and are able to select several that then we can kind of risk assess

and it has meant that we've had children that have been able to obtain work as a result of

The reparation that they've provided we've had children that go on for work experience and we we certainly had children as well

They've been given opportunities that they wouldn't previously been so for example training opportunities

So it's for us about how we reintegrate children back into their local communities.

It's lovely to hear, thank you.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:38:55

Councillor Cundell.

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:38:57

Thank you, thank you, Sheriff, and thank you for the report.

Looking back, has the caseload broken down by an ethnicity change over the last few years,

and in the trajectory of trends reflected and addressed in the disproportionality plan?

Thank you, Councillor.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:39:20

We have consistently, and this is nationally as a picture, over representation within some

ethnic groups.

That is a national picture and that's recognised.

As a local area, we fluctuate and we map it month by month but do look at yearly trends.

We are aware that there is often a population of children within Buckinghamshire that actually

may end up in the court arena and may be experiencing disproportionate outcomes.

Obviously it's a partnership approach so we don't select our children, the children that

we work with come through to us.

So this is something that is discussed and held within the partnership board that the

Youth Justice and Support team have in place.

And we have a disproportionality action plan within that, which was refreshed in June after

all of the board had wider training.

So there's lots of strings of work that are happening.

We don't rest on our laurels around this.

We're not accepting that that's OK.

We are looking at individually what does our data tell us,

and then what can we do to look at that.

And that might include scrutiny panels

to be scrutinising decisions that are taking place.

We are reviewing children that are

going to court to look at whether they could be diverted

from the court at the earliest opportunity,

because sometimes they might have ended up there,

and there might have been an alternative arrangement.

So we are doing it as a partnership.

And it's a national picture that we

are matching at the moment.

If I may add, Councillor Cornell,

and thanks for the question because it's

a really important one.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:40:50

So I'm chair of the Youth Justice Board.

I would describe it as a strong partnership,

and I would describe this particular issue

as one of those key priorities that we

have to help all agencies fully understand

their responsibilities in terms of that awareness

of this proportionality issue.

There's been strong buy -in from all partners,

including our Tenz Valley colleagues

at very senior levels.

And we even had that day where we brought

in an incredible trainer who talked about some

of the real detail behind that issue and the understanding

into things such as intergenerational trauma

which may impact on the way a young person will engage

with mental health services or the roles.

So we continue, I think it's a standing item on our agenda

at each board now that we meet quarterly and we continue

to push that agenda forward to make sure we really get into the nub of the issues there

and fully understand the impact on children and young people, but also the responsibilities

on agencies to have a good understanding of that disproportionality agenda.

Yeah, and again, we were talking about the board early yesterday in quite depth, as most

of you know I have a background with the police and that with Crime Stoppers and therefore

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:42:03

I showed my interest. It's amazing how these stakeholders are involved with that and they

do some great work. Councillor Gibbon.

Thank you, Chairman. Just a question about the multi -agency schools project, which I

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:42:17

believe you ran out of funding for, but it was very effective. Is there any chance that

that could be reinstated? Could you get funding from somebody, like the police community funds

or something like that to reinstate that?

I'll take that first, Councillor Givner.

Thank you for the question.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:42:35

It's a really important one that the, I'm glad you raised it because the feedback from

schools in relation to that programme is really positive and we saw some really positive outcomes

for that.

And as you rightly mentioned, the funding had ended.

We're currently looking at that again.

I mentioned, I made reference earlier to the national reforms in terms of children's social

care.

There was some grant funding we're looking at potentially that we could use.

But yes, it's something that's impactful that we'd like to bring back because those schools are our greatest prevention tool, if you like, aren't they?

And our eyes and ears in relation to that early indication and the prevention piece.

So you're absolutely right to raise it and that's something we'll be focusing on.

Jenny, is there anything further you want to say on that?

Yeah, thank you, Councillor, for the question.

And from our perspective, obviously, we work really closely with schools.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:43:23

And we are lucky that there's other kind of ways that we can engage children in that prevention

capacity.

So we've looked at other ways of engaging those children that may have previously had

that support through other funding.

This year is the first year that we've set a three -year plan.

And obviously, Councillor Jackson's alluded to the fact we will update it every year.

So we have a requirement to do that under the grant agreements.

But this, we've been able to do it because it's the first year we've had three years

worth of funding set for us.

Often it's year by year funding which makes it quite challenging.

So with the three year funding it allows us to really now think forward and look at those

extra opportunities for prevention support.

Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention - 0:44:07

Sorry, can I just add, Councillor, coming in new myself, this is my fourth week as a

Service Director overseeing Youth Justice as part of my portfolio.

It brings about the opportunity for fresh eyes,

and what I will be doing is working with Jennifer

to make sure that those sort of programmes

which have been effective,

that we can look at ways of how we can reestablish them

within our work.

Okay, thank you. I will keep my fingers crossed.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:44:34

Okay, so again, I met Clive yesterday.

We had a great chat, and it was a good chat

that we had again about youth,

and I'll release some information

after I've gone through this

about some little ideas that have popped up.

Okay, Councillor Hussain.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:44:57

Errol, in the report, page three,

you said delivering early intervention is very important,

and it's one of the things that the Council do not get,

to kind of applaud its for,

because by definition, you can't measure

what you've prevented.

But the figures look good.

But since 2023, we are now obligated

to look at 10 other things.

And in this area and throughout the country,

the two of the areas that stand out to me

is accommodation and mental health and emotional well -being.

Because I work with youngsters, and trying

to get them an appointment with CAMS is almost impossible.

I've had parents take them abroad rather than stay here

because of the appointments in 18 months time, for example.

And the other issue is accommodation.

You know how long the waiting list is

and how slowly the new accommodations are coming on.

So I'll be interested in two questions.

One, how are we attacking that and ensuring

that people who are coming out from custody

are being looked after in those two aspects?

And number three, you're fully aware, you know the area,

that one of the reasons we have difficult children

is because they are in overcrowded areas

and they're not gaining mental support

or wellbeing support.

So how, I'm trying to address it from both ends

if you see what I mean.

From the preventative end

and also where they've already been in custody

and how we accommodate them so they don't reoffend.

And the reoffend, just please, I'm looking good.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:41

Just before you speak, I noticed you slipped in three questions to one.

He's very clever.

He's well -messed in the process now, Councillor.

Answer it as one question.

Well, I'll do my best, but it might be a three -part response, because I'll pass the journey as well,

so forgive us for that one, and I'll pass the journey in terms of detail.

Firstly, I just want to just want to reframe something

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:47:01

Councillor Hussain, in terms of you mentioned the term difficult children.

It's not difficult, it's difficult circumstances

that those children find themselves in.

So, and that's how we generally look at that.

In particular, things like we don't use the term

youth offenders anymore, it's children who do it.

So, those are the things I just wanted to raise as well.

But you're absolutely right in those points you raise.

One of my key tasks now as corporate director,

and something that is very welcome,

is that my corporate colleagues, we sit in the same space,

we talk often, we often attend the same boards

as you'll be familiar with,

particularly that around housing.

And we've recently had conversations around care

leavers and the pipeline into housing once they leave care.

The same is true for young people

who leave the provision or provision

and a youth justice secure unit, whatever it may be.

It's a priority.

Obviously, we suffer in respect of housing stock

and available accommodation, but it's

something that we are looking to develop something

more on in terms of care leavers and young people in general within Buckinghamshire.

Clive also has a part of his portfolio is very much the early help and prevention and

we are looking at an adolescent strategy now which needs to pick up the area of housing.

So again, another area of continuous improvement and work we do with our housing colleagues

and fully understanding what some of the challenges are within the housing sector.

As you know, we now have a local plan as well and we've got to consider all those other

nuances in relation to that.

The mental health one I don't think I have an easy answer to

because it will continue to be a challenge.

And I think it represents the huge exponential rise

in young people and children with mental health difficulties

and issues and the strain that CAMS are currently under

relation to meeting that need there.

I don't have the answer.

I'm not sure our NHS colleagues have the answer.

But all we can do is continually raise the urgency

and the necessity of involvement and look at other ways in terms

of helping a young person or a family who is having a crisis or in those issues or needs

that support, what else we can do in terms of providing some of that wraparound support.

Jenny, can I come to you to continue that in terms of what else we can do and also just

on the accommodation front when children leave custody?

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:49:17

Thank you.

Thank you, Councillor, for the question.

I will note because the report itself, or the Youth Justice Plan, identifies the additional

10 KPIs of which accommodation and mental health is one of them.

We have now had a recognition that the data is still not correct and that they have paused

now those 10 KPIs for a further year for further data cheques.

So what is presented is what we were informed of our figures, but that isn't necessarily

accurate for Buckinghamshire's data.

In terms of children that receive custodial sentences,

for our service, resettlement starts on day one.

So, the worker that is allocated to them will work within the partnership,

and that was reflected in our youth justice inspection,

is how strong our partnerships were,

to start immediately planning for what release looks like.

And the child may have been living at home,

but actually circumstances may have changed,

which means that that's not the most appropriate or safest thing for the child.

Or it may have been actually they were an accommodated child previously

in circumstances of change and actually we're looking at supporting them to return home

or whether there needs to be a change in area they're living in.

So that starts immediately so that we can be ensured that by the point of release,

and actually it's six weeks before, if not there's an escalation that we have to follow,

and that is nationally as well for youth justice services,

to make sure that a child knows where they're going to be living

and has the right support around them.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:50:50

Very good, thank you very much and very good on you too.

Okay, Councillor Mahoney.

Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:50:57

Thank you Mr Chairman.

The cabinet member mentioned the plan for the next three years.

And in that plan you hope to offer further opportunities for children to broaden their experiences.

What might this include that are not already?

Thank you.

Thank you for the question.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:51:19

So many of our children perhaps haven't had the experiences of other children.

And actually, you know, an example we're trying to do is going back to the reparation

to create those opportunities to develop their skills for their CVs, for example,

to support with employment.

But often we come across children who may have never been, you know, to a museum, for example,

may have never been to the library, may have never been on certain opportunities other

children may have had.

And for us it's about how we broaden a child's opportunity because for them that helps them

with their positive change and that's what the research shows, that's the Child First

Model.

It's about supporting a child to see that something may have happened but they are a

child first and foremost, the offence comes second and that's what the research shows

So it's about prioritising their childhood and their support and their opportunities

in life in order to prevent further offending.

Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention - 0:52:19

Sorry, can I just add as well, Councillor?

The Youth Justice Service has a participation, youth participation group, and it's really

down to the young people to decide what opportunities, what experiences they want, and that's what

we tend to follow as well.

It's really important that we're listening to young people

and making sure they're making decisions for themselves

about what they want to experience

and what kind of opportunities they want.

And that participation group in the youth justice

is really important and we make sure it happens

and we're listening and acting upon what they're telling us.

Great answer, Mr. Chairman.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:52:58

Very good.

I didn't answer that, but very good.

Good question, too.

Councillor Sherwell.

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:53:05

Thank you, Chairman.

There's a lot of evidence that for a lot of young people there is a path into criminality which starts either with grooming or with peer pressure.

And clearly part of the solution, and that's in the report in all sorts of ways, is breaking that path in some way.

However, there's a big structural problem at the moment that's not Buck's fault,

and there is a massive delays in the criminal justice system.

And a case on the radio yesterday, this is a drink -driving case, twice the legal limit,

goes, decides to go to trial. His trial has been set for November 27.

So you've got somebody that's a drunk driver, who's got their licence for another 15 months because this is going on.

Now when somebody has got as far as criminality, not necessarily with a capital C, but criminality within the system,

and the process of getting to a result on that is being significantly delayed.

How has that changed or has it changed the way that you operate in trying to deal with that individual

and get them off the path? Because whatever you do, they've still got that hanging over them.

And one of the very small points just to make, I discovered at a meeting earlier this week,

I know Aylesbury has got three knife boxes.

We just put a knife in, no questions asked and all the rest of it.

I don't know whether I was horrified or pleased to discover that over three years, the average

has been one knife a day.

I don't know whether it's horrified that there were that number on the street in the first

place are really gratifying that that number have been given up.

But initiatives work.

But how can we tackle that?

Where does this hold a lay in the process?

Yeah, that's a very good question.

Thank you.

So two parts to that, and I'll try and answer them

separately.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:55:30

So the first part, commenting on the knife and the amnesty bins

that exist across Buckinghamshire.

So there was new knife crime guidance that was released earlier this year which set expectations

which does influence youth justice practise, which means that any child now in possession

of a knife and arrested by police for that has to have mandatory intervention and support.

So that changed in, I believe it was February of this year.

Prior to that we already had a project running in Buckinghamshire which continues, which

is around seeing children at the reachable, teachable moments.

So certain offences, if a child is in the police station,

then there is a response from our service within 90 minutes.

And we go and see that child.

It's voluntary support at that point,

so we can't enforce.

But it's about providing that opportunity to say,

we're not going to wait until kind of an outcome.

This is an opportunity for support now.

Would you consent to it?

And we're quite tenacious, and do get good outcomes

Separate to that, we also, there is a much wider piece of work.

There's a recognition across Thames Valley around time of this data.

So that is scrutinised and that is discussed within our partnership board.

And youth cases are prioritised as well.

So the delays are shortening and they are being looked at if there is, you know, anomaly, for example.

So we're having assurance that these aren't taking that long to be coming to an outcome.

Thank you, that's helpful.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:57:05

Thank you.

Councillor Townsend.

Thank you.

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:57:10

The plan highlights an increase in the number of girls on the caseload from 12 to 17%.

I wanted to try and understand whether that is a normal fluctuation within a relatively small caseload

or whether that's a significant number.

Also, is that increase associated with particular offences?

and you also mentioned an audit of girls' experiences, but not what the outcome of that audit was or what it found.

So, just be helpful to have a bit more information around that demographic. Thank you.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:57:48

Thank you. So, across Thames Valley, there is a wider piece of work to understand the girls' picture.

There is very little data out there in relation to girls, so that's why we're looking at Thames Valley at the moment.

And we are seeing it as an increase across ours, which is why we get trying to get ahead

of the curve to understand why.

So there's many elements to this.

When you perhaps have circumstances which may involve a group, that is going to automatically

increase the caseload.

So whether that's girls or boys.

But for us, we have, we're on a journey in terms of girls.

So the reason that there's no outcome yet in terms of the audit of girls.

So we did a, we're doing a wider project around it.

So we did an audit to reflect all our assessments

and all our plans really targeted to girls.

And the answer was not particularly,

there's a lot more development work to do around that.

So now there's been training for all staff.

That is gonna be expanded to look at the health needs

of girls in particular.

And also we are now talking directly to our girls.

I met a girl yesterday who actually was able to talk to me

about how she feels within the service

and actually how can we hear from them about how to grow our service.

So it's the start of a journey.

There's also an awareness of bringing, again, the partnership board into this

to understand what specific services exist for girls in Buckinghamshire,

across everything, not just within Youth Justice.

So hence it's why it's a big element of our kind of future planning for the next three years.

Can I just add from that, Councillor,

But this is, there's an incredible amount of learning

that we get from this.

I mean, there'll be all sorts of hypotheses

as to around, you'll see more girls visible in there.

And, you know, it's not for us to speculate,

but obviously with things going on in the world,

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:59:38

it's not hard to find headlines around exploitation,

et cetera.

So it's something that we need to consider carefully.

As Jenny said, lots more to do in relation to

working with our partners to understand

a bit more around what we're seeing and I think importantly as just mentioned as well,

talking to the young girls themselves to find out more about their experiences so we can

adjust and adapt as necessary to provide them with the necessary support that they need

at that time.

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:00:05

Can I just ask, is there a timeline or a sort of framework around this piece of work and

looking into the issue for girls?

I can answer that because it's on the agenda for the October Partnership Board.

And sorry, I realised, Councillor, I didn't answer your question around the nature of the children coming through.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 1:00:30

So many of the girls are coming in at our early intervention prevention, so that's showing that our offer is perhaps more taken up by girls and boys.

And actually it's a similar picture for all of our children that most children are coming through to us under the category of what's called violence against the person.

and that is a trend for both boys and girls. We're not seeing a difference in

the type of offences for that.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:00:50

Okay. Parrot Governor, would you like to ask any questions?

Clive Jones - Parent Governor Co-Optee - 1:00:54

I've got many questions but I'll stick to one.

First of all, thank you for sharing the information actually in advance of the meeting.

I found it relatively new to this. I found it really interesting and also quite insightful as well actually

to kind of get their context and the work that's going on there.

One of the themes through the report

is around collaboration and co -production

with children, parents, persons who've

harmed, lots of different stakeholder groups.

And that's great to see on face value almost.

But I was curious to hear a little bit more in your words

around the kind of evidence you've

got that that is genuinely influencing the service design

and then the outcomes, rather than on the other side of the scale, just treated as a

consultation exercise to say you've done it.

And that isn't an accusation, it's more just I'm interested to hear a bit more about the

kind of practicalities of how you're taking those views of those groups on board to actually

make a difference and then incorporate it into your delivery models.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 1:02:00

Thank you, and it's a very good question to ask.

So we are, use justice services have to be partnership based.

that is set within legislation.

So there are statutory partners that have to sit within us.

And obviously the board that oversees is statutory, voluntary,

and we do have attendance at points from children, parents, carers,

persons harmed around kind of, you know, our most recent ones

was feedback from the Persons Harmed group,

the participation group that's now been started.

So to give examples of outcomes, so a Persons Harmed group is very new,

so we haven't got any outcomes yet.

They haven't even named themselves yet.

But we call it YP for All, which is our child participation

group.

So they came up with the name.

They actually produced our logo.

So the logo that you see, the name of our service,

and the logo was produced by them.

They have been around both of our offices

and have identified where we could be making improvements.

And they've been part of actually doing

that improvement work with us.

We do kind of QR codes and feedback for our children,

and then we're able to do a you said we did response.

So they told us they wanted more doing in sessions,

for example.

So we collaborated with them and kind of, okay,

what does doing look like?

They gave us a string of kind of activities

they wanted to do.

And that's involved purchasing items,

changing the layout of buildings to be able to do that.

So we are constantly evolving and constantly changing.

They've also had a voice around their own experiences in terms of disproportionality,

which has been shared with the board that then goes into the Disproportion Action Plan.

So it's constantly evolving, but they are also setting the agenda.

We've moved away from the service setting.

We think this is something we'd really like your view on, and actually it's down to the

children to be setting the agenda, and that's how the Persons' Home group has also now started.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:03:54

If I may add, didn't we do something in terms of language as well, certainly in relation

some of the terminology that's used within reports and so on so that young people said,

you know, may say, what was one of the examples because it was excellent, hard to reach or

whatever else, you know, I'm not hard to reach, I've got a mobile phone, you know.

Persons harmed is a prime example.

Persons harmed, yeah.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 1:04:15

So victim is not a term that they want, that you know, victims wanted to be associated

with.

So as a service we moved to the service, to the wording of persons harmed at their request.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:04:25

And also just in terms of that assistance in relation to some of the reactions you may

receive from children and young people with that first intervention to really understand

what it is and how to make sense of that for the practitioner.

And it's not just within youth justice services across the piece.

We're looking at how we engage young people's voice better, particularly in things like

quality assurance, perhaps having some input in terms of an anonymized case record and

audit in terms of how well we've done and what they think we could do better.

So there's a number of things that we are considering in terms of how we engage them

in that co -production, co -design process.

Thank you.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:05:02

Very good.

I can see I've got a question there.

I will let you...we've got a few minutes on this one, so I'll let you slip another one

there.

Thank you.

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 1:05:18

In terms of the stuff to try and stop people getting to the point, you know, where they

do their first offence.

I know since being a counsellor,

I've been really lucky to see like youth club leaders,

people who run sports team being the silent providers,

where they'll always have a hundred storeys of, you know,

Fred didn't turn up for three days and knocked on the door

and found out that Fred was in trouble.

And he said, I saved his life.

Or, you know,

there's plenty of storeys where they've been saved

from having access to staff.

We can week out,

at a point in their lives where they've transitioned

from primary to secondary, where they've got big changes in their lives, and it makes a

real difference to have that community group there.

And I know some towns and villages have them, some don't.

So I'm wondering what we're doing, or if we can do something, in terms of giving kids

access to that where they may not have parents or care givers who can get them to those places,

because they seem to be the living, breathing heart of like saving people on the ground

level, which maybe we could somehow tap into.

And if we are, I'd love to hear it, but it's something that's really passionate to me,

because Townsend Parish is very varied

in what they're able to deliver,

but it seems to be the heart and soul

of how some people have been personally saved.

Thank you.

Thank you, cancer, really good question.

Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention - 1:06:31

It's one of the pieces of work I've been tasked with

by Errol, but we've aligned in our thinking

around our youth offer and looking about

how we can galvanise across Buckinghamshire

to make sure that those sort of services which are hidden

and nobody knows about, we're pulling together

and we're working together

to make sure there's a comprehensive offer

across Buckinghamshire which is linked up,

young people using their technology

to understand how they can go to their nearest youth centre

or to a particular church or parish

which is offering support for young people

or activities, et cetera.

And one of the things I want to do is bring about a sort

of a youth summit of all those kind of organisations

to come together.

And we talk about what some of the strengths are

and what some of the barriers are, and how we can overcome

that and ensure that every child in Buckinghamshire

has an opportunity to engage in community activity.

So it is a piece of work.

I want to say watch this space, but at the same time,

I'm sure it will be part of one of these kind of functions

when I've developed it.

So bear with me.

But it's definitely on our radar,

and it will incorporate partner plans

we talked about around an adolescent service,

making sure that we're all linked up and working together.

OK, good.

Last question from Councillor Gibbon.

Short.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 1:08:00

Mine's short.

Mine's shorter than hers.

Go for it.

Go on.

I was hoping this had been mentioned,

but I'm very concerned about the disproportionate outcomes

for children with the black and black British

and Asian and Asian British.

And I just wonder what you're doing to try and work

out what the cause might be for this disparity

and what are you planning to do to improve it?

So it's much smaller, the disparity is smaller.

What is your plan?

Because that looked like quite a serious problem there.

Thank you, Councillor.

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 1:08:38

So it's a similar picture across the country.

So it's a base but well recognised obviously it's a partnership issue

Because children are coming through to our service having been arrested or having been stopped by police

and

As we've heard from others, you know, the early prevention sides really really important

We have a disproportionality action plan, which is held by the partnership board

All of the board were trained and supported earlier this year, but there have been

This has been a growing trend, it's been a trend for many years, and we're not resting.

We are constantly doing audits, understanding what our data tells us.

Yes, there's disproportionality in terms of ethnicity, but there's also disproportionality

in terms of girls, and we're seeing that trend in terms of children looked after, in terms

of our children with special educational needs.

So all of these are looked at, audited, understand our local data, and then we have a plan from

every single audit as to what shift we're going to do to trial to then see if it makes

a difference and one of those shifts over the last few years has been a

literally is a one -pager that is in the police stations and actually identifies

and raises attention to this issue for solicitors to read to understand the

impact of a no comment interview for example for a child which is quite

different to a no comment interview for an adult so to improve practise and we

have seen a shift in in a positive shift in that since we've done that piece of

So it's constantly evolving, it's understanding our local picture and then that feeds into

our disproportionate action plan which sits as a partnership.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:10:16

And again, Councillor Gibbon, just to emphasise priority for the board which is a partnership

board.

It's the responsibility of all of us to understand and raise awareness on that particular very

important issue that you've raised and will continue because as I said it's a standing

item on our agenda at the Youth Justice Board.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 1:10:33

And are you, I'm assuming you work with schools, parents and communities to try and support

these children to steer them in the right direction?

Of course, indeed.

Fundamental to what we do every day.

Jenny?

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 1:10:46

Yeah, we have very close links with the schools.

Many a time we're actually trying to get the child into the school.

And you know, if that means picking them up and taking them, we will do that as workers

if we need to.

and every parent, and it's not just parents, it's carers,

it's whoever is involved in supporting that child

is offered a support from us as well.

Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention - 1:11:10

Can I just quickly add as well, from the report

you'll see that we're linked into a number of forums,

solicitor forums, police forums, justice forums as well,

where we're constantly bringing back messages

from the young people, participation groups,

about their experience of disproportionality, et cetera.

So again, we are making sure that we

are at the forefront of pushing the agenda to make sure that other agencies in the criminal

justice system are understanding and hearing what young people are saying.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:11:38

Very good, thank you very much. That was more in depth than I actually thought actually.

That was some good questions and thank you very much for the answers. But my thunder

was taken because, so you know, looking at the report, it's so sad to see life crime

is still so big and, you know, within the community.

Again, going back to my day when I was chair of Crimestoppers,

we had a great big campaign against knife crime and abuse and stuff like that.

And we have a youth group on there called Fearlessness That Exists.

And that's where I'm going to lead the next bit too,

because Clive and I had a great chat.

I will be running it past cabinet member,

Councillor Matthews and I have discussed this as well,

about youth is a massive topic at Bucks

and a lot of the community boards,

my community boards leading on it.

I know that Councilman Hone has got some work on that.

Councillor Matthews say a consideration is

do we form a nice working group,

not to scrutinise what's going on,

but to help and come up with some recommendations

or whatever, but that's something I've got to run past.

Can I remember having a chat?

And, but climate, we engaged so quickly, didn't we?

the other day, it was amazing what Clive wants to achieve.

And we want to achieve the same.

So once we get that sorted, we get the working group set up

to help progress the work that's going on.

Thank you very much.

So now we go on to the next topic,

which is the bigger topic.

6 Update on SEND

We're very conscious, it's back onto the agenda item six,

as it went, and for those that are only just looking in,

The agenda has been changed slightly from earlier on.

We've already spoke about the Austen and Eilish report.

Those that are watching in, you can catch up at any time

by looking back on the webcast.

And if you've got questions, just forward them

to any of the select committee, Councillors,

or myself, or our officer, and then we can relate it back

to the officers at that department.

That's for those looking in and there are people looking in. I'm impressed of how many people do look in. So now we get to the really

big topic is send. I know that colleagues have got questions.

So we're going to hand it over. Just a quick point though that was picked up earlier on

just before we get started and

Katie, our officer, is going to pick up on it for us. There's

about the recovery, improve and reform,

there's sort of three or four different titles of plans

or Larissa Townsend Council was really poignant on this

and everybody else as well.

There's a little bit of confusion of what's what, which one,

but we're gonna ask for a bit of background work

to explain it a bit better to us.

Do you understand where we're coming from?

Totally understand, Councillor.

Thank you for that.

And thank you, Council Townsend as well

for pointing it out.

I think it sums up the complexity and the level

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:14:48

of activity that's involved in this particular arena.

You're absolutely right.

They're sending improvements, send recovery, send plan.

We're waiting from DFE results while sending submissions.

So happy to do that and make sense of it all.

It's very kind.

And all of us are the same.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:15:07

But we know how in -depth, you know, this is so and that.

Welcome to our offices.

we've got John Martin and Jenny Feeney come and join us, thank you very much. I hope I

pronounced that correctly, because I normally get told off when I don't. So we're now going to go

into the SEND report that we've got. So again, I'm going to hand that over to our cabinet member,

Councillor Jackson, sir, over to you. Thank you Chairman, my strong sympathies on the

I'm feeling overwhelmed with the number of SEND plans and titles there are at the moment.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:15:44

I'm afraid to say to committees, there's another one coming soon that's going to consultation,

subject to approval by cabinet.

There will be a SEND accessibility strategy as well, coming forward soon.

I was asked in those discussions, why don't we just call it the SEND strategy, what SEND

accessibility is.

I think we're going to get confused with about five other things if we just call it that.

So there's more to come, but as this committee knows, it's an area of huge focus from the

government.

It's an area of huge focus for us internally.

so there's a lot going on in terms of improving services.

I'll do a quick run through of the update report.

Members will be aware that we had to submit a sort of local send reform plan by the 19th

of June.

That was an extremely high pressure piece of work with a very tight deadline, trying

to put, frankly, quite a lot of detail on send reform plans that haven't really been

fully fleshed out by central government yet either.

So it was something of a challenging piece of work.

We submitted, I think, slightly ahead of time,

a day ahead of time.

And it's a really, really important piece of work

because unless this reform plan is deemed compliant,

we won't get our high need stability grant payment,

which will cover 90 % of our DSG deficit.

So there are many, many millions of pounds at stake

on getting this right.

But I can reassure the committee that the feedback

from the DFE, as we went along, was very positive.

I think Aman seconded on her team and did a very clever thing in engaging with the DFE as they built the plan up

So I don't think that was much when it was submitted. It would have been a surprise to them

So hopefully we'll get a good answer. We should know on the 21st of September

I think at the latest whether that's all ticked and we can and we can access that behind each ability grant

There's an education places

a sufficiency strategy that will go to cabinet soon with a beauty going out to public consultation

on the 19th of October.

That will be an eight -week consultation.

That is the statutory requirement.

It was noted that we have to allow eight weeks for that consultation and we're allowed six

weeks for the latest local plan consultation.

I'll leave members to decide whether that was entirely proportionate.

On the SEND recovery plan, members will notice the improvement.

I think I said at the last full council, the figures for January to May 2025 were, the

council issued 199 EACPs.

The same period this year was 729.

The average waiting time is coming down.

I am waiting for some figures for August, but I will, when they come through, I'll

happily share with you, but the figures continue to head in the right direction in terms of

the number of plans being issued.

I think we were almost 100 above our monthly target for July.

August will have slowed down because schools aren't there to do it.

But the backlog is coming down, the average waiting time is coming down,

the number of EHCPs being issued is steadily, well, quite quickly going up.

So we're seeing a lot of progress there.

And anecdotally, I'm hearing from a lot of schools as well

that they are seeing more plans that they've been waiting for issued.

So I'm confident that's heading in the right direction.

I'm obviously happy to take any questions on any of that.

Very good.

Are the officers going to cover anything,

or should we get straight to?

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:19:07

Nothing further to add.

We'll welcome questions.

And would the two officers just like to introduce yourselves?

You've got two important roles.

Suggest that.

We'll encounter.

Good afternoon.

Well, good morning.

Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI - 1:19:21

I'm Dionne Marstey, and I'm head of Sense Efficiency and Service

Improvement.

Hi, I'm Jenny Feeney.

Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist - 1:19:25

I'm the principal educational psychologist.

There we go.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:19:28

As I said, two very, well, all roles are important at council,

but you know, yours is very in -depth.

And we thank you for your time coming to the select committee today.

Okay.

So unless you don't want to go into the report anymore, I'm going to go to questions.

Just to let you know that Councillor Stutchbury has joined us on the table because he just,

He had a public question, but I allowed him, and my vice allowed him to come into this

session, but only to give his question.

Okay?

He won't join in the question time, but he's looking at me with his lovely puppy eyes to

maybe change that.

But anyway, conscious of time, I want to keep the questions tight, please, if we can, so

we can get as many questions as we can.

If we can just keep us,

I'm not being disrespectful,

but if we can keep the storeys down,

keep it to questions, tight questions would be great.

Who is going to want to speak in this session?

Nearly everybody.

Okay.

So I'm gonna do it the way I did it before,

if you don't mind,

but this time I'm gonna go backwards.

So I'm gonna go to our parent governor first,

and allow him to open up the floor.

if colleagues will allow me to, for that to happen.

Clive Jones - Parent Governor Co-Optee - 1:20:49

Very good.

Over to you.

Yes, hello.

Thank you for sending the information through.

I've got a question around the EHCP production and some

of the stats I think would all agree that, you know,

they're heading in the right direction

and it's really pleasing to see.

So the number going through the kind of pipeline,

if I describe it as that, is increasing.

Yet the waiting times are still remaining at kind

of 54 weeks I think is reported figure.

I'm just curious about what kind of tangible

and specific milestones you've got maybe over the next year

that will see that 54 come down as well as the kind

of backlog becoming more manageable as well.

Thank you.

When we put in place a sudden recovery plan,

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:21:35

the sort of official target was to try

and half the backlog in two years.

That was, yeah, recognising, of course,

that demand would continue.

So there will always be new requests coming into the system.

We've made, I think, a significantly faster start

than would be required to merely hit that target.

We didn't have a specific target on milestones

by which the waiting time would come down to particular levels.

I can tell you now from these figures are obviously a little

out of date, it's already dropped below 54 weeks.

I think quite a bit below 54 weeks,

as I did now based on the latest figures.

So there were no specific milestones for that.

The real focus was cutting the backlog and obviously cutting,

particularly the number of requests that have gone

over the 20 -week statutory deadline.

Because up to 20 weeks, we're still within, you know,

we're performing sort of to an acceptable level according

to statutory requirements over 20 weeks.

Then obviously we are,

but we've gone beyond what we should do,

of the existing backlog, which is dropping quickly.

Still, I'd say about two thirds of those

are over the 20 weeks.

So there is still work to do on that.

But the total backlog's come down significantly.

It was, I think at its peak, between 1700 and 1800.

That's including those under 20 weeks and over 20 weeks.

Last time I checked, it was dropping sort of

towards the 1000 mark from 1700.

So it's come down significantly.

The waiting time has dropped.

I think it's under 50 weeks now, down from 61 .5 at this peak.

It's obviously still too long as an average waiting time, but

the progress has been very, very quick.

And our job now is to make sure that keeps going.

I don't know, Errol, if you want to add anything to that.

No, I think you've covered that brilliantly.

But I will turn to Dionne, is there anything you want to add in terms of

the progress?

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:23:31

Because what Dionne didn't explain is their involvement in the project.

So ultimately it's probably best to answer some of the details.

Dionne?

Thank you.

Yes, the project has been really helpful in terms of kind of reducing that backlog.

Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI - 1:23:48

What we do know really well is the numbers of new assessments and new requests that we receive every month.

So we're always trying to do it like a bit of a balancing act really because we want to make sure that we always surpass the number of new requests coming in each month

in order to have that tangible impact on the backlog.

So we've been able to, with our numbers,

ensure that we've always, for the last six months,

we've always ensured that we've completed more plans

per month than the new requests that have come in.

So for example, I think we had about 145 new requests

in July, and in July we were able to complete 265 plans.

So that was quite a way above the amount coming in,

but that was also quite intentional,

because we recognised that schools would be closed over the summer holidays,

so it was really important for us to do what we can before the end of the academic year,

so children can go into the new year really clear about what support they'll be provided,

and so schools can also prepare the right support, but also recognising that through

the summer months given the summer holidays, our throughput would slow down.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:24:57

If I can just add, James, what we've not seen for context is what's happened to some other

local authorities, which is a surge in requests following the announcement that the government

would reform the HCPs.

There are some areas, and I've been on meetings with other sort of lead members of children's

services, education children's services, and sent from other authorities.

Some of them are saying, our requests have just gone like that since the government said

they were looking at restricting access to HCPs or sort of redefining the levels of support.

We haven't really seen that yet, but it is of course worth stressing that demand remains high.

I'd say the general trend is ticking up slightly, but nothing that sort of looks too dramatic on the graph.

But of course we are, it's worth remembering that while we are issuing significant, I mean hugely improved numbers of EHCPs compared to this time last year,

that high demand is still there coming into the system from the other end.

And I do want to re -emphasise that point, the government have also indicated that spike

that, as Councillor Jackson has referenced too, so this is something that we've got to

be really cautious of and to be realistic in the expectations.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:26:09

As well as we've done thus far, things can potentially change in light of the announcement

around the reforms and what's to come and the move to getting applications before that.

So it's just a word of caution in relation to some of those figures because the demand continues

to be incredibly high.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:26:26

Councillor Townsend.

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:26:29

Thank you.

It is really good to see the improvement from what was a very dire situation to becoming less dire

and also quite hopeful in terms of the trajectory.

My question was actually going to be relating to that 170 number and where that came from.

Does it allow us to chip away at the backlog or does it just keep a break even?

But I think you probably answered that question, Dion, in your last response.

So if you could just maybe confirm that.

But also I'd like to know, we still have families who are waiting on average 54 weeks.

And it's not just the families who are waiting,

it's the schools who are waiting.

Maybe for funds that they're already providing to children,

they're already providing that service

and not being paid for it.

How are we improving our communication

with the people who are waiting and the schools that

are waiting?

So sorry, it's kind of a sneaky two -part question.

Yeah, no, it's a really helpful question.

Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI - 1:27:27

And I'll take it in two parts as well.

Yes, so as a kind of reference, we really

do closely watch the numbers of requests.

And we know that if we use kind of this year, January to August, we know that's ranged between

maybe 125 at the lowest and 155 at the highest.

So we know that if we are able to achieve 170 plans per month, we're kind of making

sure that our backlog doesn't increase because we're kind of surpassing the amount of new

requests that are coming in, which means we're slowly chipping away at those kind of waiting

in the wings.

Quite right in terms of we know that schools are waiting and, you know, that's why we have the recovery project and the recovery plan in place

because we know that there's children waiting for support and intervention and that doesn't sit nicely with any of us.

But what we have done is really improved our communications with schools.

So we've been having regular briefings with CENCOS and head teachers throughout the project.

We've always kind of had a bit of an open door policy if there is kind of extenuating

circumstances of exceptionally vulnerable children.

We want to know about that because we don't want to heighten or add complexity for children

waiting for service.

We've also improved our Writing Well offer as well, so being really clear about what

support might be available whilst children are waiting for their needs assessment.

And if I may, Chair, just to add, so as you know, Council Townsend, we continue to go

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:29:00

and see schools and visit them because it's important for certainly myself and my teams

to understand exactly the pressures that you describe in those schools and it's something

that's absolutely so important for us to ensure that they have that connexion to us.

Dion has referenced certain forums that we've held thus far.

We've got a director's briefing next week with heads and governors as well, just to

provide them with an update in terms of where we are in the recovery programme.

We're also planning with our parent carer forum an event in October,

where we can also share some good practise.

Because I think as you referenced to me previously, a number of months ago,

so much good practise that is going on out there.

And about sharing that good practise about the things we can do in the meantime.

And our school heads and our school's community are doing some brilliant

things out there around inclusion and helping each other.

And this event is very much around sharing some of that.

So we've got a number of schools who will be speaking on the day and talking a bit more

about what they're doing to manage some of those pressures and what they're doing to

support one another.

So we're very much linked into that, again, with our Parent Care and Forum as well.

So we are ensuring that communication is key to this, just to keep them updated in terms

of progress.

If I could just come in on communication as well.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:30:15

I know this is an area, Council Town, that has a huge interest for you and you've got

a lot of knowledge about it.

and I know you visited schools in your ward

and sort of heard first hand about this.

I think I'm right in saying, Errol,

that we specifically recruited to a communications role,

didn't we, for this?

So we have actually taken on extra capacity

to try dedicated comms roles on send issues with schools.

I mean, I visit quite a few schools as well,

and one issue I picked up is a bit of a variety

of experiences in terms of communication about changes

of echoes, for example, of the education, health, and care coordinators.

Some schools are saying I've had the same person for the last five years.

Some are saying we've had changes, but we've been told, and some have said we tried to

call who we thought was our echo, and then we've turned out to be someone different for

the last couple of weeks or whatever.

That is something that I've picked up with Ann and we're looking at, because it's a high -pressure

job.

People will move around in different positions.

and echoes are going to change,

but I think it's important.

We're sort of getting ahead of that with schools

and saying this change is coming

rather than finding out when they make a phone call

and sort of realising that the change happened

a couple of weeks ago or whatever.

So that's something we need to work on.

I think, I always say with this,

I think people can accept that there's a lot of demand

on the surface and that sometimes there might be a delay.

And I think if you say to people,

look, we can't hit 20 weeks, but it will be done by the end of next week,

or it will be done in two weeks' time.

People will think it's not ideal, it's not the exact target it should be hitting,

but I know I've not been forgotten, and I know in two weeks,

that's a bulletproof deadline, and it's going to be sorted.

I think where the problem used to come more, and which is improving,

is when there was just no communication.

It went on and on, and people started to think,

is this delayed, is it badly delayed?

have I actually just slipped through the cracks?

So it's a really, really important point.

I think the recruitment to that post to work on that

is important.

I don't know, Erin or Dion, if you have anything to add

on sort of how the new sort of recruitment has gone

and how it's working and any other sort of information

we have about that.

But I thought it was important to mention

that we've addressed it.

Yeah, I was just going to add that, yeah,

we have filled that communication role.

Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI - 1:32:37

We had an interim in place, but now we've been able

to permanently fill the bowl, which is really important,

as Councillor Jackson said, in just terms

of that regular communication, factual and accurate

communication as well.

Because I think what we've learned

is that so much things happening,

as you've identified, so many reforms, so many plans

and strategies, we want to make sure that it's consistent

and that we share information that doesn't set hairs running

because there might be discrepancies in the language.

So that comms office is going to be really pivotal in terms

of making sure there's equity and clarity and information that we're showing outwardly.

And does that break down even as much detail as letting people know where they are on the

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:33:18

list, say? Because as Councillor Jackson was saying, it's helpful for people to have some

sort of realistic expectation, or no, there are 400 people before them or whatever. And

I think that helps schools as well, actually, if they've got a list of kids with outstanding

EHCPs and then they know actually well this is a realistic time frame or this

is where you are in the queue type thing. I know it's not always that easy. Yeah Councillor I mean we've had the

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:33:44

conversation before with that would be that would be great for the numbers of schools

and the activity here and I suppose you always have to consider as we do around

the staffing capacity and I don't want to use that as an excuse but there's

things we need to focus on. We will do the best to keep people in touch in

in relation to the individual circumstances,

but as you can appreciate,

that's quite a challenge and quite an ask.

And I just wonder when things calm down a bit,

maybe we'll do that.

We do that where we can,

and certainly on that particular visit we did,

we were able to do that,

but it would be a significant challenge

at this point in time to do that for every single school

to say, yes, this particular child is so on the list.

Dion, would you agree?

Oh yeah, yes or no really?

Yeah, I agree.

I think it's so many factors.

Dionne Martin - Head of Service, SEND Sufficiency & SI - 1:34:29

You know, EHCP plan, it involves multiple professionals.

And there's the social care appendix, the health appendix.

So it's really tricky to kind of give a specific time for where

we might be able to finalise a young person's plan,

because there's just so many factors involved.

And also, given the number of children that are waiting,

it would kind of be very tricky at this moment in time.

But certainly, I think it's something

we'd aspire to achieve, possibly when the numbers become

a bit more manageable.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:34:57

Okay, let's move on and if we please could keep the questions tight

and if you have asked questions before of officers if we could keep that tight too please.

Councillor Sherwell.

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 1:35:09

Thank you. You mentioned visiting schools.

Can I ask you to rebook the visit you were planning to my school that you had to cancel because of Atherstead?

That's not my question.

My question is about the plan that we've submitted to the government.

It's critical in terms of the finances for the whole shebang.

We haven't seen it yet, and I understand the reasons behind that, and I say I agree with them,

but I understand the reasons behind that.

It will give us a lot of information to talk to our constituents with when we can.

I'm sure as a good officer you have backdoor entry to the DFE in various means.

Are we sure of what the timescale is going to be for getting a response to that,

particularly considering the change in Secretary of State?

and have we any indication as to whether on this particular issue the Secretary of State is going to carry on in precisely the same way as her predecessor?

There are clearly other areas where she isn't, but I haven't heard her say something about this.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:36:31

Thank you, Councillor Sherrill. You're absolutely right in terms of the uncertainty, and I don't have an answer.

I can't tell you whether there would be any changes.

We're not aware yet in relation to any specific new announcements

around the change of direction with this.

I know as much as you do on that.

In terms of the back door to the DFE, there isn't one.

Much of the conversation I have with my colleagues

and equivalent DCS's who I meet with regularly,

another meeting due next week on these issues,

when we do meet with the DFE and representatives,

they too talk about taking it back to government ministers.

And in terms of the date of the announcement,

all we have at this stage, and just to correct,

I don't believe it is, I think it's now just September,

is when we will learn of the DSG deficit grant.

That's the latest I have, unless, Kelsey, you have anything further than I today.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:37:24

No, I mean, it's September, and then I think it's worth mentioning that if the DfE,

I mean, we're hopeful that the DFE will find our plan compliant

first time.

If they don't, then there's a sort of second bite at the cherry

in spring next year, where if they want to make changes,

you can then...

There is.

But I'm confident from the initial feedback we've received

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:37:43

from the DFE in comparison to, and our health colleagues

in our local area partnership who also read seven other submissions

within the local area, was very praiseworthy of our plan.

In terms of that plan, Councillor Sherwell as well,

it was a very prescriptive, finite time scale

in relation to our submission.

I mean, it was literally a couple of weeks that we,

a few, very few weeks as you know that we had to do that,

which was very prescriptive in terms of what the requirements

were around the data from our local area partnership.

We had to get that in in conjunction with our

Parent Care Reform and other partners, so we did that.

Once we received the announcement and then further,

We are then in a position to share and then develop further what that plan looks like with our partners, with our local area partners,

with schools, with everybody involved to talk about the next phase and the next steps. But in all honesty at this stage,

again, we will go with the current work programme.

I cannot tell you whether there's going to be any change of direction in relation to government announcements at this stage.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:38:47

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:38:50

It would indeed, but as you would appreciate when we are given the task of

developing and submitting that local area plan,

that was done on very little guidance at the time also.

And sadly we are in that position again,

in a sense where we'll progress as best as we can

with the information we have to hand.

Thank you, lovely.

Councillor Marhock, you got a question?

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:39:11

Very good.

Remember, excuse me today.

Councillor Say, remember.

Actually, just one question.

Cllr Frank Mahon - 1:39:24

It changes minds.

I mean, Councillor Sherwood brings up a very valid point here because over the last couple

of months, decisions by the government has changed almost daily.

So have we got a fallback plan if for some reason we didn't get this high needs stability

grant?

Do we have a fallback plan too?

Or are we doomed if we don't get the money?

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:39:57

I think the fallback plan as it were, I would stress again that given how closely Ammon

and her team engage with the Department of Education as they were preparing the plan,

this is not just feedback after they submitted it, but as they were going along, we're confident

that it ticks the right boxes.

If it was found that there, for us or any other local authority, that there was still

and work needed doing, then there is a second bite

at the cherry to get the sign -off and funding

in spring of next year.

I think March 2027 was mentioned.

So if, and it's unexpected, but if the government came back

and said, we're not quite sure, we think you need to tweak this,

tweak that, or add something,

then you could have a second chance for sign -off in spring.

But I would stress that.

I think I can say in public

that we would be surprised given the feedback we've had so far

if this wasn't signed off first time.

Yeah.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:40:50

If that was the case, there would

be many other local authorities.

You can imagine a cumulative deficit, which I believe

stands forecast to stand at around $3 to $5 billion

of all local authority cumulative deficit spend.

The government would need to come back with the backup plan

in terms of how they would assist local authorities

to manage.

Basically, the bigger question on the financial side,

a councillor is what's happening with the 10 % that isn't, of the deficit that isn't

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:41:19

covered by the High Needs Stability Grant. And of course given that that 90 % figure relates

to a fixed date, there will be some deficit built up after that date where we still don't

have a guarantee of what percentage will be covered. We are working on an assumption for

budget purposes that will remain at 90%. But we don't have that in writing yet. So I think

those are bigger uncertainties to be honest at the moment.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:41:42

Thank you very much.

Okay. Councillor Hussain, again, please type to the point.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 1:41:51

Type to the point, page 63, you said improved timeliness

with education, healthcare needs assessment.

You've already covered it with Council Townsend,

so I don't need to go into that.

But what I do want to know is you are aware that parents

for their children go to private providers

for the assessments.

Now, and they're borrowing money from,

I've had parents come to me,

borrowing money to do these assessments

to try and jumpstart the system.

The question I have, and I always ask is,

are these council approved?

Because I don't want parents wasting 3 ,000, 4 ,000 pounds,

and then the council say, quite correctly,

I'm not criticising the council,

this is not good enough or this is not what we accept.

So are you given templates or are you given,

I'm not asking for an accreditation system as such,

you go to ABC limited or CYD limited,

but a template that this is the kind of information

we require, please ask your provider to make sure

we do that.

My second question is at the other end of the spectrum.

Councillor Ho's saying one question only please.

At the other end of the spectrum is getting ready

for adults.

And I know my son went through this,

and it was terrible at the time.

It was useless.

I'm sure it's got better.

Can you just elaborate very briefly

how we've improved that section?

Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist - 1:43:23

I can take the part about private reports,

certainly from an educational psychology perspective,

though obviously we're not the only professionals who

they might seek private advice for.

The council is not able to offer an upfront guarantee

that a report will be accepted

because we don't know what the report is going to say.

That's what's in templates.

Yeah, and I think the thing that's important to say is

whenever we are asked to give advice to schools and parents,

we will say, the first and foremost,

parents need to understand the parameters

of what those professional expertise need to be.

So if you're seeking an educational psychologist report,

they must be HCP registered or absolutely will not be accepted.

They must have the correct job title, et cetera,

because actually, unfortunately, there are people out there who will take money

from people who are not qualified to give that advice.

What I will say is that the council will aim to be pragmatic

because we are thinking child first, and we don't want to put children

in a position where we are seeking to gain additional advice,

which is intruding in a child's life unnecessarily,

if the advice that is submitted is sufficient.

Any HCPC registered educational psychologist should know

what they should go into an Appendix D.

And so what we do tend to find on the whole

is that the quality of reports that come in

are usually good where there is a kind of halfway point

where it's largely sufficient,

but perhaps there is a small element

that hasn't been captured in the reporting.

and we will try to look at different ways

instead of going back to the starting point again

and asking a child to wait on that list

if there's something that we can do to get around that.

But unfortunately, it's never going to constitute

a guarantee, and so we're always really careful

to say to people, to Sengco's who are working with parents

in particular, to say, make sure that you have conversations

if this is the route that they are thinking of taking

so that we're not having parents out of pocket

for something that effectively is not going to be suitable

for that purpose.

And just, Councillor Hussain, on the preparing for adulthood.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:45:35

Toby heard the conversation earlier on around the various different aspects of the plans

and strategies.

As part of the improvement plan, there is a work stream of preparing for adulthood because

it certainly picks up the issues that you raise and the experience that you've had in

terms of your own family.

So yeah, it's very much recognised in terms of the need to assist in that post -16 pathway,

opportunity, skills, housing, all sorts, we're on that one.

And again, something that will become a bit more clear

in terms of when we set out what each

of those work streams are doing.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:46:05

Thank you very much.

And keep your mics still on, Councillor Hussain.

I did point out, I don't like this, but I said one question.

In future, if anyone does two questions, and I said, well,

I try to be fair to everybody, and I'm extremely fair,

But if that happens in future, I will knock you down the chain

and leave you to last next time on question time

and would consider whether I allow a question or not.

I'm not being nasty, but I try to be fair to everybody.

So, please.

Okay. Councillor Gibbon.

Thank you, Chairman.

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 1:46:42

I'd like to just ask about this improving

or having stronger inclusive practise.

I'm going to put my teacher hat on here for a bit.

I'm all for it, obviously.

It's much better for any child to be with their peers for a million of reasons.

It's obviously the best place for them.

But this is really probably more applicable to secondary school.

That I'm very concerned that students will be put

back into a class situation, not really prepared to be there.

and I'm concerned that they won't get enough support,

which can be very, very overwhelming.

So even though I think, yes, they

need to be back with their peers if at all possible,

but they also may well need support.

And I know there's financial constraints

and it's quite difficult. But I think

we are doing them a really massive misjustice if they

don't have the support they need when they are put back

into mainstream education.

So for example, a child, say with a reading age of eight,

put into a year seven or year eight class,

cannot access the curriculum, they get very, very distressed.

And it's not fair to put them in that situation without the support they need.

So I just want to see, in order to have them back in mainstream education,

can you give these children the support they need in order to thrive really?

Thank you for that question.

Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist - 1:48:13

I think it's a very important question to ask.

and there's been quite a lot of conversation between education and SEND leaders about,

you know, when we use the term inclusion, are we actually all using it in the same way?

I think it's really important to say that to be inclusive doesn't mean there's no need

for reasonable adjustment, and actually reasonable adjustments for individuals allows them

to be included sufficiently within their community, within their school.

And so what we're going to be looking at through the SEND reforms,

and particularly with experts at hand,

is how do we use the expertise that we have within the local authority

to sit very tightly around schools.

And we've got what we're going to be calling school partnership teams

to be working very closely with school systems to look at

how does your wider system enable inclusion for all children and young people,

including those who will still need something different

for that to be achievable within the classroom.

It is not about taking away support for individual children.

We know that they will still need something

to be able to access what their peers are able to access,

but this is about ensuring that our local systems,

our settings and staff within them feel confident

in meeting a range of needs and have access to expertise

where they need to understand something

that is different for that individual child.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:49:40

If I may, Chair, just to add, Council has given what I referenced earlier around the

event in October, I won't name them, but a couple of schools who are doing incredible

work around inclusion. They're the ones that are going to be speaking because, again, they

provide that additional support. They already provide a lot of wraparound support that we

didn't necessarily know about. It's been really interesting to surface some of that good work.

So we're bringing that as part of that event to share with other schools in terms of the

best way to wrap around and provide that additional support, training, school, tools, etc. in terms

of that very important point that you raise around the support.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:50:14

Thank you. It's just that having seen their enthusiastic little faces, I don't want that

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 1:50:25

to be them to lose that. I want them to be able to progress. So thank you.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:50:29

Okay, sorry. I made everybody jump by the looks of it. It was something mean to.

Councillor Conell.

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:50:36

Thank you, Chair. I think Councillor Huzain has asked 90 % of my question, but can I just ask it anyway?

Are there or will there be placements or internships available for seven children and young adults

so that they can achieve independence? Have you actually got a plan in order or have you approached people

to say, can you take these children?

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:50:56

Thank you Councillor Cornell. Yes supported internships is within that workstream and the conversations I had.

We've already begun the conversations with the various providers and schools so yes it's in hand as part of that work I described.

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 1:51:07

So you have actually been to say to people will you take these children or can they come here or whatever?

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:51:13

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:51:17

Perhaps I can provide you with an outside update on the work that we've done.

Thank you.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 1:51:20

Councillor Slavin.

Thank you very much, Chair.

A nice question for you, really, with reference to 2 .18

of your report, page 60.

The delivery of the new road developmental workshops.

Very briefly, basically, could you perhaps share what those

workshops were about?

And more importantly, though, what learning has been gained

from these workshops?

Thank you.

I can partially speak to that question.

Jenny Feeney - Principal Educational Psychologist - 1:51:52

A lot of, so I've recently become the co -chair of the early support and inclusion workstream.

That is a role that I'm phasing into, and so I'm getting to grips with some of these

things.

Some of the things that are outlined there are very much beginning and developing at

this point in time, and so there's a collaboration between Children's Social Care and partners

within education and SEND to work together to look at workforce development.

And so they're very much, I think they had just one a few days ago,

they're starting up kind of regular practise -based workshops with professionals

to look at how we support and understand neurodevelopment.

I'm looking at all the points that were under there that you are referencing.

So a lot of these things are in train now.

There's also the reference to the inclusion quality mark,

which is something that's actively being discussed at the moment to see how that also fits with

experts at hand and what experts at hand might do in order to support neurodiversity and

thinking about inclusive practise across our schools. But I don't think we're in a position

to report back at this point in terms of impact because most of those things are kind of in

process and currently being embedded.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:53:08

Everybody remember to turn your mics off when you, just as a reminder.

Councillor A

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 1:53:15

Ficchiu. Thank you. I think it would be really helpful on our scrutiny meetings to have a baseline report like they're doing for the housing portfolio on growth housing infrastructure.

for example, regarding how many people are on the EHCP waiting list and how many people

are being processed.

You do a great job, but it's all a flow of information that's in addition to what we

get in the report that I find the most useful.

And actually those key figures of how many people you've got coming in, how many people

are sat on the list and how quickly they're being processed, it would benefit you because

you're saying the figures are improving,

but it'd be really helpful to have that in the pack

for scrutiny.

And also, so, but my question leads on to,

when you do the transport provision for EHCP,

is that entirely separate, or are you including that

in how many people you get through?

Because I know it's a different portfolio,

but to me that's really important as well,

because you can like have the EHCP,

but if someone suddenly needs transport

putting on or something else,

that delay can stop them getting to use the EHCP

by being at school.

And it would be really useful to have that data as well.

Thank you, Councillor.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 1:54:35

Yeah, I mean, I'm very happy,

perhaps the most appropriate thing to do

is have a conversation with you, Chairman,

about how we provide data to the committee.

So I'm happy to do that.

And obviously, when a committee requests that data

as part of a pack,

that of course the committee is absolutely entitled to see

and all the lines are heading in the right direction,

so I'm very happy to share it.

Transport, yes, I think no doubt your inbox like mine,

Councillor Arthur Hewitt, has put this on your mind

at the moment.

I tend to get a lot of emails,

because I think people think homeschool transport falls

within education, whereas we put it in transport.

So, which is fair enough, it could go either way, I suppose.

In terms of the technical part of your question,

I mean, I don't know if you've got anything to add.

I mean, certainly the data would probably have

to come from the transport portfolio.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 1:55:25

Yeah, but we work very closely with service directors

and staff within home to school transport.

Obviously, with the new term, I was seeing certainly a lot

of activity in my inbox in relation

to where exactly what you described, Councillor,

some of those issues arose.

But where you consider the 8 ,500 cases of children who rely

on that home to school transport, yeah,

it's really important that we have those close links.

So in terms of bringing that here, I think, Councillor,

Chair, we've had a bit of a conversation,

but I think it's worthy of a further one.

And on the other point as well,

probably worthy of further conversation

around the data dashboard or an abridged version,

because there are some areas of caution

around submitting that data,

particularly when you look at timescales

and some of the issues that we've discussed today.

But I'm happy to have that conversation

along with Councillor Jackson.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:56:12

Yeah, and to follow up, just to let you know that,

excuse me,

We spoke again yesterday about this,

but it's been in the pipeline for a while about school transport.

There's other things, and I've talked about with our officer and with vice chair,

that tech have got a subject coming up on that,

where I'm being invited to input into that too.

Maybe you would like to join me.

You know, the whole committee is welcome to look in.

Um, but, um, but yeah, but that's a further conversation that we're having,

because I, you know, we've had quite a lot of dealings this week with, um,

school transport, uh, with a lot of things going on. And I will say,

and I'm going to mention his name, uh,

James Lauda has been absolutely over the, it's been brilliant.

You know,

the workload the man and the team have had in the last week has been through the

roof, but, uh, they've really excelled on finding solutions.

but again, it's not a subject for our committee,

it comes under tech, so that's where I'll be having a word

with cabinet members to see how we can bring that together.

And we mentioned about homes earlier on,

and with injustice, like the justice system, and again,

within the growth strategy, select committee,

there's work there that we could do as well,

to do with school placement, et cetera.

So again, talking to the select committee chairman there,

about some cross work with there, but I'll keep you up to speed as it goes there.

Okay? Right. Sorry, hold on a second. Yes.

He's been waiting very patiently and he keeps smiling at me, we will in a second.

Yeah, yeah. Councillor Townley, are you asking for...

I just had another question if it's allowed.

Bear with us a second because I'm just conscious.

Vice -chair, you'd like to ask a question?

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 1:58:17

Thank you. Yes, I'd just like to very much echo the comments

that Councillor Jackson's made about the importance of communication.

But it's not just about the communication itself,

it's about the clarity of communication.

I've found in a number of cases that I've been dealing with,

it's been... the language that's been used has been misunderstood,

particularly for those where English is not their first language.

So I would have a plea for please can you look at the clarity of the language that you're

using so that people understand what you're saying and do not get the wrong end of the

stick.

Thank you.

I think that point's noted.

Thank you.

We can talk about that later.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 1:58:59

Okay.

I'd like to say welcome now to Councillor Stutchfield.

4 Public Questions

He's been very patient.

He agreed to change that round because it was on our agenda.

It was rightfully so that councillors should talk first and then followed by Councillor

Strisbury with his question.

So over to you, sir.

Thank you very much, Chair.

Public Questions - 1:59:22

Yeah, interesting questions.

Just to, before I ask a question, just to put a thank in to the officer's team who supported

the Mayor of Buckingham and myself last week with loads

of SCN transport cases.

And I will say I have to thank you for the support you gave

to resolve those cases, as has to be said in public.

We are so often criticised, but it's important

to say thank you as well.

That said, I move into this question.

I'm just thinking Saturday, I think the first time I sat

in a meeting with the Chair was 2011 in the Educate Jewels

of the Deservers, not that it's relevant today,

but it was a long time ago.

Thank you.

Just to walk into this question, the local authority

must carry out statutory obligations in compliance

with the Crime and Disorder Act 1999, Section 40.

In addition to the local authority,

you must also carry out these statutory obligations

in respect to safeguarding children and young people.

as set out in the Children's Act 2004

and working together to safeguard Children's Act 2018.

The local authority is aware of the significant pressures

on SEND systems, both locally and nationally,

alongside several recent developments,

such as the SEND reform agenda, which sets out context

for our improvement programme in response to the SEND area

partnership has been actively working to ensure continued improvements are being made across

the system, including response to the government's recent agenda.

Within the regards to SEND reform, the local authority is aware of the government's publication

on the white paper, which sets out the ambitious plans to create an education system where

every child and young person can achieve and thrive.

This was published on 23rd February,

including significant reforms to the wider education system,

including the children's systems education needs and disabilities.

Hence the question because two subjects today.

Just for context, my late wife worked in the criminal justice system,

so I have a reasonable understanding of these issues.

It was a large part of her work.

What light can the committee shed on the steps being taken by the Council

to ensure that children and young people with neurodiversity

are having their steps put in place to limit their interaction negatively

with the criminal justice system, as it is well known

that many young people with neurodiversity and autism

are at far greater risk through their disability of becoming

negatively involved with the criminal justice system,

proportionally resulting in prosecutions

through their inability to manage

behaviour and their actions.

And I think it's a well -known fact,

but it needs to be assessed whether how

we are dealing with that.

Because it wasn't mentioned in either report or the one

I went to a meeting the other day, Eva.

So that's my questioner, thank you.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:02:50

Thank you, Councillor Stutsbury.

I allowed you to have more than three minutes

because you've been so patient and you obliged earlier on.

So thank you very much for your presentation.

Cabinet member.

Thank you, Chairman.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 2:03:04

So there's a very detailed response,

which I'm not going to read out in full,

but a written copy will ensure it's sent to you,

Councillor Stutsbury, afterwards.

But to pick out the key points,

we recognise the strong correlation between SEND

and involvement in the youth justice system.

I think the report brought that out.

The figures I think show that for the last reporting period,

it was more than half of those children and young people

who were involved with the youth justice system had an EHCP

or other SEND support.

We talked about disproportionality earlier

in a different context.

I think, you know, that is a clearly massively disproportionate

overrepresentation of those children

and young people in the system.

As a result, there is a lot of joint working,

partial working between teams here.

The Youth Justice and Support Team conducts joint audits

with the education team with a specific focus on SEND

on the HCPs to identify how you can improve outcomes.

They work with SEND team, educational psychology,

attendance services, CAMS, which came up earlier,

liaison and diversion team,

especially for education providers.

There is a tracking of trends as well in relation to the HCPs

and the justice system, sort of to try and help that kind

of inform that safeguarding and support.

There's something called a joint decision -making panel,

which is fleshed out a little more

in the written response you'll have, which relates to children

to the subject of out -of -court processes.

Neurodiversity is discussed as part

of the decision -making process for each child.

You'll be obviously very aware that obviously there's a lot

of working with T

where a child within the HCP is taken into custody,

so that sort of, and the SEND team is notified

if they're arrested.

So we're trying to make sure that sort of those needs

are taken into account there.

It all comes back ultimately to the key point

in everything to do with SEND,

which is it's another good reason to get onto these issues

as early as possible with every single individual child.

Because you'll see from the Youth Justice Report

that there is obviously the issue of how children are helped

and supported once they're in the justice system,

but there is also a preventative piece of work there

on identifying sort of behaviours that the unmet needs,

maybe the exploitation that can lead to involvement

in the justice system down the line that we want to stop.

So I think your question picks that out importantly.

And like I said, there is a slightly more detailed,

longer response with which I will not try the chairman's

patients, I'll send that to you after this meeting so you can

see the full detail.

And if you have any follow -up questions, obviously, I don't

need to encourage you to ask them.

I'm sure you will.

Public Questions - 2:06:19

You've never even encouraged me to ask.

Thank you very much for it.

As someone who is on the spectrum, I definitely have an

interest in these things, and I also know about the equal

qualities of that and being able to make reasonable

adjustments, which also plays for time.

Thank you.

6 Update on SEND

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:06:33

Thank you very much, Councillor Stutchbury.

Good question.

And the cabinet member will forward a more in -depth response there.

I'm conscious of the time.

I know that Councillor Townsend wanted to ask one more,

but I've got a question actually,

because I'm always told I'm too quiet and allow the committee to ask questions,

and I don't.

But I have the opportunity that I see officers every day to ask a question.

But one that has something we've been working on with some people

in my area, especially one about a young gentleman

that sadly suffers from autism and combined of ADHD and et cetera.

And he's been excluded from the school.

So he's come under the Section 19 team.

But a question that sort of developed from it I'd like to ask.

And the parents helped with this.

So if I throw you in the deep end a little bit.

But the report leaves out and the question is, how many children of compulsory school

age in this county have no education while the council's section 19 duty is engaged

and how many and how long have they been waiting for that system to work?

I don't know if I put it across quite quick.

It's quite an in -depth point but what it's basically asking is how many children are

not in school while the Section 19 team are looking into their case.

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:08:06

Thank you, Chair. I think the question of data, it might be one I have to take away, I'm afraid,

because I don't have that to hand. So if I may, and I do not want to mislead anybody,

certainly who may be watching. So if you wouldn't mind, Chair, I'm happy to take that question away.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:08:20

Yeah, thank you very much. I put that question as I was asked, say, and the rest of the packages

coming over to the department for them to deal with properly as they as they

required so thank you very much for that. I'm gonna allow one question because you

know it's um but I it might not be you but Councillor Townsend over to you.

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 2:08:41

Sorry, just on the section 19 thing I think it was a question it was an issue

I raised at the last meeting and I wonder if it is perhaps something we

could look at further in detail at some point.

But my question relates to the education sufficiency strategy.

As well as EHCPs, we also, as counsellors,

get a lot of emails about placements

and whether there are enough placements in special schools

or ARPs or whatever the case may be.

So I'm really pleased to see that there's

a strategy on the way.

However, the current landscape with reforms to national send

legislation with the local plan, you know, we've got a situation where the ONS is projecting

a far lower population growth than our local plan is building houses for.

My question is, how confident are you that the consultation is going to produce an effective

strategy?

And is that strategy, is there going to be any mechanism for agility?

Will we be able to review it and look at it as things move and develop?

It just seems a very uncertain time to be nailing down

a hard and fast strategy without some element of movement.

Yeah, absolutely legitimate questions.

Cllr Carl Jackson - 2:09:56

I mean, certainly I wouldn't argue with your comments

about disparity between expected housing demands

and the number of houses we've been asked to build.

I suspect that is perhaps, and the chairman will remind me

slightly outside the remit of this committee,

but yeah, undoubtedly true.

So this is a really important point.

The education sufficiency strategy is coming forward.

It's a five year strategy, I think it is, it's a 27 to 32.

It is constantly reviewed in terms of where we need

school places, it's an ongoing process.

There's a team that works on this, feedback from the

Department for Education says we do our forecasting

rather well, and so it is not a case of we do this, then we'll have a look in five years'

time and see sort of if it's working out. It is an ongoing process. It's not even a

case of we'll review it annually. It is a constantly ongoing process, because things

are changing quickly. There are areas where we're seeing very large increases in population

quite quickly. The local plan will obviously increase that. So you see things like Kingsbrook

at Salisbury School at Aylesbury,

that's just, I attended the topping out ceremony

for them to go to an eight form entry from a six form,

that's looking to go potentially to a 10 form entry

at some point, there's been two schools closed

in Marlow recently which have created no capacity issues.

So you're seeing different trends around the county.

We need to obviously make sure we get the right,

not just the overall number of places that we need,

like the word sufficiency would suggest,

but the right type of places in the right places,

because otherwise you're going to end up with some schools

which have surplus places and become unviable.

You're going to end up with other schools

where you'll have a load of children who can't get

into their local catchment school.

There's obviously the issue of providing for SEND,

a bigger emphasis in inclusion of children and young people

with SEND in mainstream education now.

And of course there's a home to school transport implications.

If you have your schools in the wrong place,

you're going to have more children travelling further

distances to go to school.

So it's really important to get it right.

and you'll be reassured to know it is not a case of

here's a five year strategy, see you again in 2032.

It's a constant piece of work and forecasting that goes on.

I assume that's the...

No, it was actually that last point,

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 2:12:18

I was only gonna add just the constant review

and the need for because of the change in need

and but the huge scope of this, including developers,

everybody else in the local plan,

just keeping that alignment.

So that massive piece of work, but it is being considered

and taken forward in each part of the system, if you like.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:12:37

Very good, everybody.

I've got some good in -depth questions there.

I hope you were happy with the responses that you got,

but this will crop up.

And you know, you said this is a big topic,

and it will come again, because especially

with you adding more and more different little planning

things, and you know, so we've got recovery,

this. Don't do too many. We'll be really inundated.

Cabinet member, Errol and officers, thank you very much for your time. It brings us

to the end of that section next. We're going to now talk about our work programme.

Thank you very much for your attendance and answering the committee with their

8 Work Programme

questions. Thank you. Thanks everyone. So as we now sort of wind down a little bit

with item eight, which is our work programme.

Everyone knows the work programme, that's correct.

Is that, Katie?

So you know the work programme, what's there.

Like I say to you, you can add to it if you require.

But there are some things I want to bring

to your attention quickly.

It's, and we've talked about this, is school visits.

There was an interest of school visits.

So officers have asked every single school

who would be willing, I think I asked every single school,

quite a few who would be willing, and we have a list that we're going to send out.

There's about 14 of various schools that you can attend. We can only attend in

small numbers. We can't go as a big group, but we get the list out to you, and if

you want to say what schools you'd like to attend, and then what we do is look at

that and then ask another question, because we scrutinised very well, is ask why the

schools didn't want us there. You know, it's a question. That's how I see it.

So we get that list out to you, tick the box and send it back to Katie and then

we could get something arranged on that one. And as I mentioned earlier on, I

attended MASH, which is a multi -agency group. Has anyone ever attended MASH?

Yeah, maybe what we do is get a debrief on MASH.

When you go in, it's very high security because there's a lot of detail that goes in.

Yes, Councillor?

Sorry, I'll let you finish.

So, we'll see if we can arrange, so you understand.

So, MASH is different departments of Social Care.

You've got children's, adults, and then you've got the police.

There's quite a lot of people involved in an office that work strategically together.

So again, I've been in there before, about 15 years ago, it hasn't really changed and the system works.

But yeah, yes?

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 2:15:35

Can I ask, excuse me if I didn't know, when we wrote to the scores,

And you say that sort of a reasonably large number

of actually have sort of not asked us to visit.

Did we actually outline the purpose of our visit?

It was just to have a look around.

Well, I mean, in terms of that's what I mean.

I mean, it's to celebrate what they are, what they do,

and how to them rather than scrutiny.

And it is concerning the fact that they feel the fact that,

oh, they're going to be coming in like an off -state group

and then maybe we're saying, I mean, it is concerning.

We should be getting ourselves out there and celebrating.

And if anything, out of these 18,

if we do a reasonably good job in visiting them,

it's really important the fact that it's amplified

and the fact that they then, when they speak to others,

because as heads will speak, oh, by the way, such and such

came from another really good guy, a chap, a good person

was actually really kind of celebrated what we did.

I think it's really important that you ask that question

to ourselves, actually.

fact is that why is it that the others aren't asking us?

And these 18s that we do do this time, perhaps we really

make a good job of it to make sure the fact that we

Absolutely.

And that's why some of the heads have been very strong to

say, I don't want everybody there.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:16:55

And I appreciate that, because they don't want a load of

tufties like us from county walking around, the kids

worrying about what's what.

We want to go in a casual approach just to appreciate.

You know, Councillor Townsend was very conscious of you'd

like to go to every school in your area.

Oh, there you go.

But your award member, so, you know, we have to also,

we've had to cheque.

We will be checking whether award members mind us going

to their schools because, anyway,

we will do a bit of background work.

But good question.

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 2:17:27

And, yeah.

So just one final bit, though, because I have been doing it

about four or five schools in my area,

I wrote to them as mayor, and I said to them

I wanted to just come and sort of celebrate it,

and they welcomed it.

And I suppose that mayor thing is a different thing,

as opposed to the council, but we

need to make sure the fact that that is a celebration,

as opposed to, you know.

And I understand the stigmatism with regards

to what we as councillors are coming in as counties,

and what are they looking for.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:17:58

The whole idea is to go in there and help understand,

they're like, you know, it's great to have Clive here,

you know, understand the need of the schools,

because all schools are different, whatever.

It's yet to go in a nice soft approach and go to help.

Yes, Kate, so we've got...

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 2:18:18

Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, we obviously want to listen

and ask them stuff without appealing like we're white,

But we can't, I don't think we want to go there

and just celebrate them because we need our listening ears on

to say how are you firing the staff,

how things are going day to day,

are there any particular issues you're having.

We don't need to talk, we just need to listen.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:18:45

Education, we're going for some education, okay?

Very good.

Right, due to the commensalists of the consultation

and education places, what are we doing on that one?

There's a report coming to this committee in November.

So there's a report coming, just to let you know that Katie and I are nearly on the phone

every other day or on Teams or stuff like that, she keeps me busy.

Yeah, there's a report coming to the committee in November, which is consultation to do educational

places and sufficient strategy.

Then, as you know, something we're all very keen of is to encourage, because we've been

talking about youth today, is Youth Voice Bucks have been invited to the committee next

time around, next meeting, and we'll just wait to see who's coming.

Some of the young people that they've approached are very keen.

The whole idea is they come early, they will be sent the agenda, the pack, they will get

to read that pack and then come to us to discuss their thoughts of that pack, but also their

thoughts of them as young people of what we do as a committee. So we want, like Errol

was saying, we want to hear what the younger people say to influence us. We've had to go

quite a lot to get them there under GDPR or whatever you want to call it and stuff like

that. But we are inviting them to stay as well so they can listen or watch but they'll

be taken off the camera. They're going to be sat in a certain place and then at the

end of the meeting if you're still happy and you still want to stay, is talk to them afterwards,

just half an hour and see where we could maybe

bring them in later to the stage.

Quiet people are very happy with that bit of work

that we're bringing in.

And the answer is that.

Then I hope to school transport, massive issue,

it's in tech in November.

We're gonna be attending, if anyone else wants to come,

they can, but I don't know if you get to talk

unless you put questions pre -hand again.

but I'm hoping they're going to allow me onto the committee that day to talk.

So if you've got questions that you'd like me to ask on your behalf, happy to do so.

And then the last one is the corporate parenting is again a big issue.

We've been talking about that with officers about it's not in the public domain enough.

You know, we know we're corporate parents,

but we don't know who the children are,

we don't know this, and so we're gonna look into that

a bit more, maybe set up again a working group

to work with the corporate in -parent team

to see how we can enhance that department,

is that correct?

Is that correct?

They're agreeing, so, and again,

we'll be looking for anyone that would like

to get involved on that to help enhance that.

Any questions?

Councillor Hussain will ask, he's naughty boy.

No, go on, you can go.

Microphone.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 2:22:18

In the previous iteration of the council,

members of this committee were automatically members

of the corporate committee, which made life much easier.

And they were, they therefore were on top of everything

because they were members of both committees.

Through the various transformations,

one, this committee has become more and more isolated,

because I remember also as a member of this committee,

being invited onto the various school forums,

which again, gives you different information

from different sources, and gives you a much wider brief

as to what's happening out there in the education

and children care world.

But so what I'm trying to say is if you're if the council is now going back to that direction

I fully support that

Because I feel that as a member of this committee you are isolated and although we get lots of information

And you've been through this today. You're allowed one or two questions. You're not getting the real meat of the matter anymore

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:23:25

I'm being told I've turned my microphone on.

So yeah, attending those and bringing it a bit more together.

Regarding the time that we have for one or two questions,

I apologise I had to come back at you a little bit.

I don't like coming back at people,

but I'm just trying to be fair when I say one on one.

The only way we could change that

is to get more meat off the bone, as you say,

is to cut back of what we discussed at meetings,

is drop some stuff off the programme.

And again, that's difficult

because our portfolio's quite big,

or do we extend the time?

Sorry?

We're shooting tomorrow at 12 and we're clock -verified and we need coach.

So I want to say these, the US chairman, and I fully support this chairman,

taking a position here, but as you said, there's one more question at a time,

and that allows them to answer.

Half an hour is going to make no difference to getting the meat off the bone,

so to speak. That's how I see it.

If you want that, you'll need a meeting until about 3 o 'clock with what we're doing.

simple as that, but take on board,

we're taking it all into consideration?

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 2:25:08

Yes, Alan.

Yeah, the corporate parenting is what I wanted to comment on

because you and I and Councillor Arthur Hewitt

are on that panel.

All its meetings are confidential

and its minutes are confidential,

and that's right because of the nature

of what we're talking about and the fact

that we have very often children of whom we are corporate parents present at the meeting and so on.

And that confidentiality has to be observed.

But I do think you're right that there is intelligence that comes from that process,

in the military sense of the word, that could be widespread both to this committee and to the council as a whole.

Because at the end of the day, it's

one of the few direct responsibilities

that you have as a counsellor.

Most of the other stuff we do is indirect responsibility,

and we all have that responsibility.

So it will be worth having a discussion

as to how we get the work of that panel

and the work of the corporative parenting team

better known, better understood through the council.

Because after education and children's services is a strong part of that,

but it's not the only part by any means.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:26:41

Thank you. I think that's why we need like a working group just to help.

I think that for speed, you know, a little team would be able to

fraction that out quite quickly, rather than all of us going off to do it.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, right, okay. Anyone else? Yeah.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 2:27:09

Going back to the work group, the work and plan, a couple of points. One is the Education Place's

on the sufficiency strategy which is in November.

We've also got that on another sufficiency strategy.

I'm assuming that is in particular about school places.

We'll come back to you.

And secondly, this is much further away,

25th of March, Education Standards and Effectives Report.

over the last few councils that has been turned

into a kind of publicity document rather

than a scrutiny data document for us to look at.

And I would very much like to say to you as a member

of this committee that it goes back to being a data -driven

document as information from us as committee members rather

than a publicity document of how wonderful it is

and beautiful pictures of different things going on,

which seems to have happened in the last couple of things.

And my last point is you on the last page, suggestions.

I'll leave that as suggestions with two of them in mind.

One of them, like I said, is if the answer

for my first question is that's been ticked off,

and the second one has not been scheduled as yet,

but I'll leave that to you, the 11 plus process.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:28:35

Yeah, so I did ask right at the beginning

when we all formed the committee,

was suggestions then so we could programme the year,

so to speak.

But I did, suggestions was for the first meeting.

But I think we're a brilliant committee

and that's why I left the offer open

because I think we're working well together

and a few little odds, one slipped in if we can.

I fully accept that could be scheduled,

could not be scheduled, it's not,

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 2:29:05

but I'm glad it's on there as a suggestion.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:29:09

Yeah, okay. Anyone else? I'm going to just oblige someone a second.

Councillor Stutchbury, I know you're not part of this committee, just quickly.

There was something that you and I, we covered didn't we a few years ago, that you was asking,

want to cover it quickly because I've got to go somewhere.

Yeah, I'm sorry to intrude.

Public Questions - 2:29:30

I'll send it across to you or it's something you can consider whether it's worthwhile.

It's narrowing the gap in education.

The report that we worked on some years ago, I don't recall it being...

The attainment gap, yeah.

Yeah, you know, and I think that the gap in education between how you enter education,

how you leave education is really key.

We spoke about it when we were at another meeting and I'll send it, I'll find the report

and send it to you and then you can discuss whether you think it's worthwhile or not.

I think it's about time we looked again because our children leave education.

It's about how they've improved their journey.

It's not about grammar schools, it's about...

I remember meeting Nick Gibbs, the Minister in London, many years ago.

I think we met him in Milbank, actually.

And he was the Conservative Minister at the time.

He's very keen on this and I think it's something we need to look at.

In fact, maybe not now, but in the future.

give you chance to consider whether you think it's worthwhile.

Just because I'm focused on it doesn't mean it's necessarily right.

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 2:30:39

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:30:40

Lovely. And it was, you know, it was so that Councillor Stutchbury and I,

we were quite involved back when, when the, so we consider that again, we'll bring that,

we'll have a little chat. Just send the report in to Katie and then she will deal with it from

there for us. Like most things, I'll have it somewhere. You have? Yeah.

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 2:31:02

Is the attainment gap near enough always,

I bring it up for no one else does,

in the standards report,

because in that there's a whole section

on the attainment gap going through key stage one

to key stage four.

Okay, fantastic.

Cllr Phil Gomm - 2:31:16

Okay, everybody, thank you very much for your time,

and your input and draw out of the cabinet member

and the officers safe journey back home,

and we'll see you when we see you tomorrow?

You never know these days.

Okay, safe journey home everyone.

Thank you.

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt

Labour Party

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Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE

Liberal Democrats

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Cllr Caroline Cornell

Conservative

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Cllr Kathy Gibbon

Conservative

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Cllr Phil Gomm

Conservative

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Cllr Maz Hussain

Conservative

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Cllr Niknam Hussain

Liberal Democrats

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Cllr Carl Jackson

Conservative

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Cllr Frank Mahon

Conservative

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Cllr Wendy Matthews

Conservative

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Cllr Alan Sherwell

Liberal Democrats

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Cllr Larisa Townsend

Independent

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Interactive webcast player

Children’s & Education Select CommitteeThursday, 10th September 2026 at 10:00am

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:00

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:00:15

1 Apologies for Absence

Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:01:43

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:01:48

2 Declarations of Interest

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:02:26

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:31

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:02:46

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:02:48

3 Minutes of the Previous Meeting

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:04:58

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:05:07

Cllr Wendy Matthews - 0:05:12

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:05:17

Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 0:05:20

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:05:22

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:05:28

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:05:33

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:05:40

Cllr Maz Hussain - 0:05:45

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:05:47

Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:05:50

Cllr Alan Sherwell - 0:05:54

Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:06:06

Clive Jones - 0:06:09

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:06:13

7 Ofsted/ILACS Focus Visit Verbal Update

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:08:18

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:10:16

Cllr Frank Mahon - 0:10:19

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:10:29

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:10:53

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:11:29

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:13:35

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:14:09

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:16:16

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:16:20

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:17:19

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:18:31

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:20:30

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:20:43

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:20:49

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:21:18

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:21:25

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:22:10

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:23:06

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:25:01

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:25:20

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:25:54

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:27:57

5 Youth Justice Plan 2026 - 2029

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:30:07

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:32:07

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:32:29

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:33:22

Cllr Hazel Arthur-Hewitt - 0:33:41

Cllr Carl Jackson - 0:35:02

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:36:09

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:36:39

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:36:41

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:37:06

Cllr Parveiz Aslam MBE - 0:38:00

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:38:04

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:38:55

Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:38:57

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:39:20

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:40:50

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:42:03

Cllr Kathy Gibbon - 0:42:17

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:42:35

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:43:23

Clive Seall - Service Director, Early Help, Prevention - 0:44:07

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:44:34

Cllr Niknam Hussain - 0:44:57

Cllr Phil Gomm - 0:46:41

Errol Albert - Corporate Director for Children's Services - 0:47:01

Jennifer Hathaway - Service Manager, YOS & Exploitation Hub - 0:49:17

Children’s & Education Select Committee
Thursday, 10th September 2026 at 10:00am