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Thames Valley Police and Crime Panel
Friday, 11th September 2026 at 10:30am

 
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  1. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
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  1. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  3. Matthew Barber - PCC
  4. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  5. Matthew Barber - PCC
  6. Cllr Georgina Heritage - South Oxfordshire District Council
  7. Matthew Barber - PCC
  8. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  3. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  3. Matthew Barber - PCC
  4. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  5. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  6. Matthew Barber - PCC
  7. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  8. Matthew Barber - PCC
  9. Cllr Caroline Cornell
  10. Matthew Barber - PCC
  11. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  12. Matthew Barber - PCC
  13. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  14. Matthew Barber - PCC
  15. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  16. Matthew Barber - PCC
  17. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  18. Cllr Georgina Heritage - South Oxfordshire District Council
  19. Matthew Barber - PCC
  20. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  21. Matthew Barber - PCC
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  1. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent
  6. Matthew Barber - PCC
  7. Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council
  8. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  9. Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council
  10. Matthew Barber - PCC
  11. Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council
  12. Matthew Barber - PCC
  13. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  14. Matthew Barber - PCC
  15. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  16. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  17. Matthew Barber - PCC
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  1. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  2. Matthew Barber - PCC
  3. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  6. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  7. Matthew Barber - PCC
  8. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  9. Matthew Barber - PCC
  10. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Matthew Barber - PCC
  2. Cllr Rob Parkinson - Cherwell District Council
  3. Cllr Ed Hume - Milton Keynes City Council
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Cllr Ed Hume - Milton Keynes City Council
  6. Matthew Barber - PCC
  7. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  8. Matthew Barber - PCC
  9. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  10. Matthew Barber - PCC
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  1. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  2. Cllr Timothy Faltermeyer - Cherwell District Council
  3. Matthew Barber - PCC
  4. Cllr Timothy Faltermeyer - Cherwell District Council
  5. Matthew Barber - PCC
  6. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  7. Matthew Barber - PCC
  8. Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council
  9. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  10. Matthew Barber - PCC
  11. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  12. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  13. Matthew Barber - PCC
  14. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  15. Matthew Barber - PCC
  16. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  17. Matthew Barber - PCC
  18. Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council
  19. Matthew Barber - PCC
  20. Cllr Georgina Heritage - South Oxfordshire District Council
  21. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  22. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  23. Matthew Barber - PCC
  24. Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council
  25. Matthew Barber - PCC
  26. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
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  1. Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council
  2. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  3. Cllr Stephanie Steevenson - West Berkshire Council
  4. Matthew Barber - PCC
  5. Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent
  6. Webcast Finished

Any apologies for absence please. Yes chair I'll get through this quickly we've
got a few unfortunate. Councillor Adewale from Milton Keynes,
Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 0:00:09
Councillor Bowles from Buckinghamshire, Councillor Gregory from South

1 Apologies for Absence

Foxforshire but we've got Councillor Heritage's substitute member
welcome. Councillor Saul from West Oxfordshire,
Councillor Parkinson from Chairwell, we've got Councillor Folta Meyer
as substitute member so welcome. Thank you and is there any declaration
Sorry, Councillor Fawcett.
I'll need to leave early.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:00:33
Not a problem.
Thanks.

2 Declarations of Interest

Are there any declarations of interest, please?
I'll take that as a no.
Thank you.

3 Minutes

The minutes of the last meeting held on the 19th of June, can I take that as correct and
we'll sign those off?
Thank you.
I'd like to first of all make a statement.

4 Public Question Time

I would like to thank the Chief Constable of Thames Valley, the Thames Valley Police
Federation and the Police and Crime Commissioner, and all those who signed the petition in response
to the early prison release scheme for offenders in the case of PC Andrew Harper, and all other
victims affected by this legislation.
Without the efforts of those people, we would not have achieved, through the government
– pressure on the government, to take the action that has been taken, and hopefully
going forward we will see a very positive result.
Again, I would like to thank them all on behalf of this panel.
Thank you.
Khalid, have we any public questions?
None received, Chair.

5 Operation FORD - Effectiveness Review

Khalid Ahmed - TVP Crime Panel Scrutiny and Support Officer - 0:01:36
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:01:39
I would like to first then move on and welcome Mr. Barber in relation to Operation Ford,
please.
Thank you, Chairman.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:01:47
You have got a paper in front of you which talks about the Operation Ford, the distinction
between Ford and Bridger and sets out some of the preventative work that's done in terms
of raising awareness with members and also a few figures on some of the outcomes and
outputs from Operation Ford.
Very happy to take any comments or questions.
Thank you.
Councillor Osanic.
Thank you very much, Chair.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:02:21
My question with regards to Operation Forward and the effectiveness of it is that being
a city councillor in Oxford, you know, I feel that this is more, although there's like meetings
and webinars that you can attend to see, you know, be given advice, you're not really looked
after like you are with the MPs, like they have like a pen or something, the recording,
or they know that they get instant activation help when they need it.
Obviously we're just a small guy, right, on the bottom,
trying to help the local community members.
But in my experience, you know, someone who's had been litter picking
and got racially abused and stuff while an election is going on,
it's really frightening sometimes, it can be.
And I feel that, you know, just looking and listening to what resources are available
is not really effective the same on the actual ground.
And the same question, if Chair, I may, that on the Internet is another ball game.
So is there anything that you can do to help us ordinary councillors, please?
So thank you for that.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:03:33
And I think it's worth focusing on that distinction between OPCBRIJ, which is the Protection of
our members of Parliament and Op Forward, which is focused on councillors of principal
authorities and indeed police and crime commissioners.
So I should have probably declared an interest in this as well.
I think we need to be really clear.
I wouldn't question for a moment the points you make, Councillor, and I think we all know
around this room better than most the abuse, the sometimes threats that councillors can
face.
And indeed, I think it's very clear from my experience and talking to colleagues that
that is generally much worse aimed towards female councillors and elected representatives.
There's some pretty vile stuff.
The principle of OpFor forward and the additional funding that we get from it is not about treating
councillors differently or better.
The law is the same.
So, something that is, and if I take Pamela as an example, someone who's on this panel
as an independent member, but is therefore not an elected Councillor, not normally covered
by Operation Forward versus the Councillors. Someone mistreating one of you is exactly
the same offence in law, there is no difference, and frankly, you shouldn't get, in my view,
a different service from the police. You should both be protected just as much. But the intention
of Operation Forward is about recognising where there might be escalated risk, that
actually someone may be much more targeted in their actions, and so it's as much about
making sure that there is a good response, there is intelligence gathering, there is
looking at patterns of behaviour, because the risk might actually be greater because
of who the victim is. So, take a threat for example, someone may be more likely to carry
out that threat because it is deliberately targeted at someone who is elected rather
just a random member of the public. So it's about properly assessing the risk
and ensuring the police do respond appropriately and accordingly. But to be
fair I don't think our constituents would expect us to get a better service
from the police and of course the law doesn't change in terms of those
offences. So I can certainly think of occasions when I've had conversations
with councillors where they don't feel they've got an appropriate response from
Thames Valley Police. I think in fairness most of those I can think of are
probably before the institution of the opt forward process which has definitely improved things.
But equally, and there are some statistics in there about the number of cases that have
been highlighted under this, there is clearly some very good policing outcomes. So, to go back to your
point, I don't think we will ever get to a stage where there is additional security being provided
directly for councillors such as, you know, panic buttons etc, unless there was a specific risk
against an individual and that frankly should be the same as any other member of the public
where there was that level of risk or threat. But this is about making sure that there is
an appropriate response and appropriate understanding of the nature of that risk in the intelligence
gathering that goes behind it. So, Rob, I don't want to get into individual cases, but
this is about the oversight we have of that and hopefully the report helps.
Thank you.
Councillor Lynn.
Good morning, Matthew.
With fewer than one in five...
Sorry.
With, sorry, with fewer than one in five Councillors attending the Operation Forward security briefing,
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:06:57
what steps can be taken by the PCC and local authorities to improve engagement and uptake?
Why do you think this happened?
I do think it's a challenge.
I think there will be some who simply don't consider themselves in need of it,
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:07:13
who don't feel themselves particularly at risk and therefore don't want to engage,
and we can't force people.
We tried, and I know it's been done by counterparts in other places,
we've done some, I've done some pieces to camera to try and engage with people,
I've written to political group leaders, if you like, politician to politician,
to encourage people to engage in that.
And as well as the briefing sessions,
obviously there's other material that can be circulated
outside of those briefing sessions,
which is very much harder to recall
in terms of how much take -up you get.
We will have another opportunity next year.
What's been really good is making that available
to candidates as well as to councillors.
And obviously you get a much wider range there.
If you're looking at the uptake
amongst a group of candidates,
we know that there will be lots of effectively paper candidates who think
well I'm never going to get elected I'm not particularly concerned about this
I'm not going to worry about it until some by some miracle I end up in office
so I think you will always end up if you're looking at candidates there's a
much smaller group of people who are genuinely interested in that as you
would be frankly if you do a briefing from the council or anything else
Thank you.
Hi.
Can I just ask a question about on the outcomes, there's quite a high number, well, reasonably
Cllr Georgina Heritage - South Oxfordshire District Council - 0:08:34
high number five outcome 16 victim not supporting.
And I just, I appreciate this is an overview, but would it be relevant to have more information
on that?
Is there, you know, is there a, are there particular reasons why the victims aren't
supporting?
I just want to make sure that it's not because they might feel like under pressure or afraid
to continue with the report.
I think that's fair.
I think we could, I'm conscious about how we might present that to the panel in a useful
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:09:12
given the numbers are so low without identifying individuals but perhaps
I'd like to take an action to go away and look at that and come back with a
with a generic response to that answer if you can. I think from experience there
there are two possibilities around that one is indeed a fear of some future
escalation if you like I think that is always a challenge for any victim of
crime but I think there are also cases again without getting into specifics that
I can think of where someone has been concerned about someone's actions, has reported it
to the police, have actually perhaps sometimes been surprised by the fact that the police
haven't just taken note of the report, they've actually gone around and arrested someone,
and then they've thought well actually it wasn't that, I don't actually want someone
to go through the criminal justice process, they've been arrested, they've got the
message. So there are both ends of that, of course it depends on the severity of what
someone's been subjected to, but I think probably the most effective thing if the panel
happy is I will come back with a response to that rather than providing any more data
because I think with just five cases and a few hundred councillors in Thames Valley it
would be quite easy to identify individuals.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:10:27
If there's no further comments on that part of the report, we move on to item 6, domestic
violence disclosure scheme, Claire's Law.
Thank you, Chairman.

6 Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme (DVDS) “Clare’s Law”: Bench Marking Comparison

Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:10:34
I will claim success inasmuch as just getting the figures has been quite painful.
And there are areas I think this shows where we still need to improve and possibly learn
from other areas such as Surrey, but actually having got those comparative figures, I do
think it puts Thames Valley in a pretty, you know, reflects our position pretty fairly,
particularly noting the size of the volumes that we get coming in.
I mean, of most of those comparators, apart from West Yorkshire, which is in some of those
tables and the Thames Valley is clearly just a much larger area higher
population so you would expect that but I think it does show that Thames Valley
does now perform certainly much better than we used to we know that from the
on the basis of our own figures but comparatively pretty well in terms of
managing volumes and getting reasonable comparative outcomes I think Surrey is
clearly an outlier in some of the excellent work that they're doing in
many ways and equally they have to deal with much with much lower volumes as a
There might be some useful conversations to have with counterparts over in Surrey about
if they've got any magic bullets to improve things further.
But I think this report hopefully does show to the panel continuation of the work we've
been doing anyway over many months, and that hasn't, I don't think, slipped back in any
way, but also showing good comparisons across similar forces.
Thank you.
Question from Pamela, please.
Thank you.
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:12:00
Yes, many thanks for all you've done in getting the data.
I think as a panel, we're, you know, we can recognise the improvement and we have a greater
understanding now of the challenges that are faced in this area.
So that's great.
We're pleased to read and also to hear you say that we're going to explore approaches
used by other forces, um, looking at best practise, and you mentioned Surrey there.
Um, and so we're keen not to kind of lose that.
Um, would like to sort of follow up at some point on, um, how we're continuing to improve
and anything that we can magpie from other areas.
Um, and I noticed in the report that we have said that we'd explore approaches you, you
know, used by forces with high disclosure rates and timeliness.
So, just going forward, I think we thought that, you know, we wanted to recognise and
say thank you, but also to not, we're anxious not to lose the momentum going forward, and
to recognise that we're still not there, and some, you know, and if there's anything else
that we can learn from other people now, we've got this kind of comparison.
We don't want to just kind of like, you know, take our foot off the gas.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:13:22
So, in respect to that, we think that probably putting off not having meetingly updates on
Claire's law, that we look at one in 12 months' time for next September's meeting.
With comparable figures that obviously we're giving you 12 months' notice to have advanced
notice, I mean, I'm sure things will change in those figures.
Obviously, an approach to Surrey would be very beneficial.
I'm not saying that they're the best but they may be not so good in something else
but certainly they are the champions at the moment from the data you've presented to
us.
So I feel that report in a year's time please, covering exactly the same data as in the graphs
or spreadsheets in this report will give us a very good thing and make sure that Thames
Valley is keeping the progress going that it is a present.
Very happy with that, Chairman.
With the additional caveat, because I'm fully behind the panel on this, that if we've
got something useful to report from conversations with others in the meantime, I can bring something
sooner if you've got time on your agenda.
But if we put it down for 12 months, we should certainly have something by then.
Thank you, and thank you to all those people who have prepared reports and done the research
in this for us.

7 Local Command Unit Implementation Update (Force Review)

Can I move on to the next item, number 7, the local command unit implementation update?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:14:41
Yes, thank you, Chairman. Obviously this to some extent feels like quite a long way back
in the past now, but we said we would come back to it once things were bedded in. The
report hopefully highlights some of the successes and indeed some of the challenges that we've
had. I think the key benefits are worth highlighting, additional sergeants, strengthening of neighbourhood
teams, the introduction of our high of our harm reduction units, those are not
insignificant and have made a real difference on the ground. I think it was
a concern when you do any sort of restructure that you lose people at the
bottom and the whole point of this was always to say well actually we need to
lose a few people at the top to thin out the command structure and and make sure
we've got enough resource on the ground and that has been the outcome of this. I
is that along the way, and I genuinely can see some operational benefits and
Chairman you will recall where actually the command units were pretty much what
they are now 10 -15 years ago, so this wasn't a massive innovation it was going
back to where we've been in the past. There were two million pounds were
saved as a result of this at a time when we needed to save significant sums of
money and we still have a, we've got a finance paper coming later, we still need
continue to make savings. One of my nervousness, one area I'm nervous around
with police reform which again is on the agenda later that Lord Hogan Howe and
the Home Office are talking about local police areas, LPAs as we used to call them
in Thames Valley, but talking about making those co -terminus with local
authorities. Now in Oxfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Milton Keynes that's
what we've done. However with potential local government reform in Oxfordshire,
if the government ever quite decide what they want to do, and indeed in in
Oxfordshire, sorry in Berkshire, we could end up with a
significant number of smaller unitary authorities. Now if the
government were to mandate some sort of change in local police areas in Thames
Valley we would still see a massive command unit in Buckinghamshire, a smaller
geographical but significant in in capacity in Milton Keynes and
potentially five tiny local command areas in Berkshire three across Oxfordshire
spanning into West Berkshire I think that would be a disaster frankly and
is one of the real concerns I have and if nothing else we've just saved 12 two
million pounds by reducing the number of command areas whatever number
you go back to if you start increasing them again assume that it's going to cost us another
£2 million to go back. That would be my word of warning.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 0:17:42
Thank you. Councillor Newton first, please. Thank you, Chair. I've been having quite a
few meetings with residents recently and I was quite surprised at the common theme that
was coming through, which was that a lot of them were saying, oh, there's no point in
contacting the police.
This was about sort of what is fairly low level crime,
but it's impactful to them.
So it's things like things being taken from properties,
shoplifting and other stuff,
particularly e -bikes and scooters
and all that kind of stuff.
But things that they don't believe the police
are gonna respond to.
So it was irritating them,
but they were being quite negative about the police.
And I found that a little bit disappointing.
Because one of the things that concerned me
was that if they're not even bothering to report,
then your crime numbers will be down
but you could have a better outcome.
But also what worried me in terms of that
was that if crime is perceived to be falling,
then actually that might create a negative effect on budget
in terms of people thinking,
well you don't need so many officers
because there's not so much going on.
And it sort of becomes a circular thing in the end
that they don't report,
therefore police numbers go down,
there's no one to respond, and so on and so forth.
Where actually what they're wanting
is to have more police so that they can respond,
is my belief.
So that concerned me a bit.
I'm wondering whether,
if we could encourage people to report everything,
whether there's a way for the police to then track that.
Because what I don't want to happen
is this to be used as a sledgehammer
to try and beat Thames Valley Police up with.
That's not where I'm coming from at all.
But what I'm thinking is that it may give opportunity
to say, well, these were, and I know we don't like the term,
but we think of it as low level, less impactful.
They might get a crime reference for an insurance claim
or something, but that's all that happens.
So it's parked, but actually it's still registered
so that we could have investigated,
but we didn't have resource, and therefore that goes
into the budget and the funding equation.
Or we did investigate and we couldn't do anything
because the Crown Prosecution Service
just wouldn't progress it for whatever reason.
And again, that then starts to highlight
where the challenges are and what the barriers are
because the public don't really differentiate
between the Crown Prosecution Service not doing anything
and the police not doing anything.
They just see that the person's got away with it.
So I'm just thinking that this challenges
in terms of the resource structure a bit,
but it also challenges the budget,
which I'm gonna come on to later.
What's your thoughts?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:20:16
Well, I completely agree. I'm not just disappointed with that.
I'm hugely frustrated with it. I don't deny what you say and I don't deny
a genuinely felt view from some in society that it's not worth doing.
I would say I don't think that in any way relates to the fore structure that we put in place,
because actually the reality is we've got more officers on the ground doing neighbourhood stuff
after the restructure than we did beforehand. So people might have, well have that view,
but I think the two are unrelated from that particular item.
I do find real frustration.
I think one, because for many people it is rhetorical,
rather than necessarily sincere, but it creates a mood.
So, if you take one of the most serious offences
that most members of the public might come into contact with the police on,
which is burglary, and our burglary stats are low,
and I talk to lots of people who are genuinely impressed
by the response they get from Thames Valley Police if they are burgled.
Thankfully the numbers are low.
And I do rhetorically get from some people,
well what's the point of reporting anything,
nothing ever gets done.
Well if you're a victim of a burglary,
which is a really quite serious offence,
I struggle to imagine many people who wouldn't report a burglary.
Even if it were just for the insurance purposes,
because if you try and claim on your insurance they're going to say,
So even if that were just the case, we should be getting those reports in.
And I think in those cases we are.
Where we do, I think we have particular issues.
One is around shoplifting, and I spoke quite a lot on that last year and the need for people
to report, and I will reiterate that point again.
Also around vehicle crime, tool theft, and we've done an awful lot around that.
So I think one of those things, we need to be much more practical in going out there.
and I spent some time with my team,
with local neighbourhood teams,
when we've been distributing our tool marking kits,
for example, not expecting people to come to us,
but actually going out to them at Tool Station
and screw -fixing all those places
while they're buying tools
and having conversation with tradesmen.
And some people will say,
well, yeah, what's the point?
Police aren't interested, are you?
And I'll, we're here, aren't we?
How much more interest do you want people to show?
So there is a little bit that there is a,
there's a bit of a mood,
which I don't think is justified.
There are plenty of problems,
and it's part of my job to challenge the police
when they don't deal with things adequately.
There's also a little bit of expectation setting.
So there was a case that I came across
of something that had been stolen from a field,
and our rural crime team are really good,
but something had been stolen from a field
over the dates given were a range of a week.
There was no CCTV.
There was no description of a vehicle
that you could look at NPR on neighbouring roads
and it was an open field.
The reality is there are just no leads
for the police to investigate,
so that is going to be closed.
And there are a number of crimes
that it's not for lack of resource or want of trying,
but you've got to have some reasonable lines of inquiry
for the police to pursue it.
So I think we need to set those expectations quite rightly,
but I agree, there is absolutely a view from some people,
I was talking to a group of residents last night
at a meeting who will share some of that view.
But actually, most people when it happens to them,
I like that they are willing to report,
but building that confidence is absolutely right.
You've gotta look at, so another example
would be what we've done around 101.
So there was definitely a mood five, six years ago
that what's the point of calling 101,
you can never get through.
Now, some people will still wait too long,
but our average call times are down to about
one minute and 30 seconds at the moment.
and it is not a complaint I get regularly.
That doesn't mean that everybody has confidence to do it
because they might have tried five years ago
and that's still in their mind,
but actually complaints about 101 call times
are not there anymore.
So we've fixed the basics
and that does help to build confidence
and that was my message whenever I talked to,
I was with some student officers earlier this week
talking to them as they're going through their training.
It's always about getting the basics right
and dealing with those inverted commas, low level offences
because that's how you build confidence in the ability to report and get something done.
Thank you. Councillor Cone, please.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:24:36
I'm Cornell actually, but that's fine.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:24:41
Matthew, North Bucks, I know I've gone up about this to you a lot,
but I would like to see more police presence in our North Bucks, north of Aylesbury.
We've got a lot of problems going on in Winslow at the moment with drug dealing and burglaries happening,
and they're not being reported because for the reason everybody said.
But we don't have any police.
We have got no police station out there either.
There's a place on Buckingham Industrial State that is just a depot.
You can't report anything there.
Is there any chance we'll get more police, more people on the street,
more police cars coming through the places?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:25:14
So if I take the police base in Buckingham as an example.
So first of all, I'll go back to the reporting point.
You mentioned burglary and drug dealing and people not reporting.
I would really want to know of any instance you know of someone who's been burgled and
hasn't reported it, because I think that would be incredibly serious if someone didn't have
the confidence to report a burglary.
We've had two people who've actually chased the burglars off their property, so they haven't
reported it.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:25:40
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:25:41
So that would be an attempted burglary, potentially, but I would still – if they've got the
details, that should absolutely be reported, and I would be very happy to take that outside
the meeting. So, again, sorry, just to pick up the reporting point. In terms of the resources,
I agree everybody would always like more resource. In terms of the sort of front counter, because
you make the point that it's a police base and it's not got a front counter, my priority
would always be having police officers out and about on the streets to do policing. And
whether it's a police officer or a member of a police staff, if we decide to open loads
of front counters and I had this almost exactly mirrors a conversation I had with someone
last night in Oxfordshire where someone came to me and said well we want the front counter
open because we want to have more confidence in policing and then listed a load of real
world examples out and about nowhere near a police station and my response is well if
that had happened to you and you were told no you can't report it now you need to go
to a you need to walk across town and report it in person at a police station which isn't
open until nine o 'clock again tomorrow morning you probably think that's pretty poor service.
people actually want to be able to get hold of the police on the phone, online,
and yes, have that the opportunity to have an in -person presence.
So police officers can meet people and do meet people,
whether that's suspects for interviews or victims at the Buckingham Police Base,
and it will be used for those things.
But the idea of having, of reopening loads of front counters,
experience is that where that has been done in certainly neighbouring forces
and where we still have a few, they might see one or two members of the public a day.
and actually if we put loads of staff behind desks that will be less staff out
and about on the on the ground. So I absolutely hear your call for more
resource and and if we can get the funding that I want from the Home
Office we will continue to prioritise frontline offices in terms of in terms
of those numbers. The we've nearly we've more than doubled as I said nearly
trebled the number of neighbourhood officers out and about plus we got those
specialist teams like the Royal Crime Task Force, et cetera.
So I wouldn't disagree with that desire to see more officers.
I just don't think the solution to that is to put people
behind a desk in an office that nobody's very likely to visit.
Cllr Caroline Cornell - 0:27:58
Can I just say an enormous thank you to the police
for what they did at Newton Longville
when we had that awful crash?
They were fantastic, absolutely fantastic.
They went above and beyond the call of duty
and stayed longer than they should have done.
And thank you very much for that.
Good, thank you.
I will certainly pass that on.
But if I might use that as an example,
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:28:14
just to sort of segue into the other bits, you will get incidents,
thankfully we don't get too many incidents that are quite that dramatic,
subject to an investigation, I wouldn't want to prejudice anything,
but subject to an investigation that's not obviously a crime issue that someone's dealing
with, it's an incident and a vast amount of policing time is taken up on dealing with
non -crime incidents, that's not the famous non -crime hate incidents,
it's the stuff that people will phone up and talk about, it's the odd car crash,
a car broken down on a dual car range way, those sorts of issues that will draw people
away. And actually the more we can therefore do with our partners to take that pressure
off of policing, the better. Of course, that one was a bit exceptional.
Thank you. Pamela.
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:28:58
Thank you.
The report notes that, um, performance in respect of positive outcomes for, um, for
and domestic abuse crimes is not improved as wanted with mixed performances across the
command units.
And I wondered what further progress you expected to see in these areas over the coming years
and how you'd hold them to account.
Thank you.
I think it's a really good challenge.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:29:32
And I think it's important to make sure that all of those local area investigation teams
are operating as effectively as the best of them.
So there is some review work being done at my office.
we're looking at the sort of scrutiny programme that we're going through over the next 12
months, the quality of investigations is absolutely one of them.
Making sure we identify – I think you used that wonderful phrase which I'm trying to
steal from now on, thank you – mangapying.
And actually policing could be quite bad at doing that.
There's a little bit of this, it wasn't invented here.
In a force the size of Temens Malat, it can sometimes be a challenge to spread best practise
across the whole force.
So what we'll be looking at over the next year
is in a variety of areas,
but including those VORG offences,
looking at how the best practise
in investigation can be done.
There is a particular area which is raised with me regularly
and there isn't a perfect answer,
which is actually how you balance officers holding cases
and doing all the case file work themselves
versus having civilian staff to build case files.
Now, ultimately, that's an operational decision, but it comes with a price tag in both directions.
There is a piece there about how you have those specialist teams who really understand,
in the case of those vault offences, the issues they're dealing with in order to effectively
build those case files.
So that will be part of that mix that we're looking at.
Sorry.
I was just going to ask, so I understand what you're going to do.
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:31:15
I just want to be clear how you're going to cheque that it's going to be done.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:31:18
So we've got, sorry, we've got a long list of scrutiny areas that we're looking at over
the next 12 months within my office.
We are highlighting investigations as one of them.
That will be done through our liaison, my liaison meetings with the Chief Constable
but also through the liaison between my office and the Forces performance management processes.
So it will be one of those areas we will look at on the monthly basis through performance
management to escalate to the chief consul if we see issues going awry and then working
with those teams in terms of getting towards the budget setting to understand, well, actually,
is this a we need to put more resource into it to solve the problem or is it a case of
we've just got some better processes here.
So it's a sort of tiered approach of monitoring the progress and actually understanding what's
going on.
Is it just a case of the the bedding down a process because if you look across the LCU some of them started their work
And almost a year before others because they were only implemented at different times. So actually is it something that will mature
Itself or is it something we need to put additional results into?
Thank you
Joe if I may I wanted to speak about
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:32:36
more enforcement on illegal bikes and more visibility in Oxford City is that
something that you would do under the local command unit?
I can give it a go.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:32:49
One second, class reps.
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 0:32:55
Just to add to that, this was something I was planning to raise under topical issues.
There seems to be and I picked this up all across the county there are some
There have been issues raised in Bist, I think Whitney as well and elsewhere.
Some challenges where we're getting challenges about illegally scooters and this is including
in areas where there's no e -scooter high schemes so the legality is pretty clear.
People locally on the ground, local councillors are struggling to get action in terms of tasking.
How can we get work better, and I might raise this in some of the meetings that are coming,
how can we work better to ensure that where there are these sort of issues that are coming
through, particularly in terms of illegally modified e -bikes and e -scooters, that we can
get some action raised on them, please, because I think some quicker reaction on that would
be very, very helpful.
I would like to add my support to this because I seconded a motion through south Oxfordshire
Cllr Georgina Heritage - South Oxfordshire District Council - 0:34:09
district council on the same problem recently and it was something I was hoping to bring
up.
The problem exists throughout Oxfordshire.
We know that.
I think one of the problems that residents have is knowing how to report.
They seem to be sort of they feel that the police aren't taking it seriously but it might
be that the route to reporting isn't clear, but it is a real problem in Oxfordshire, and
I'm sure it's not just Oxfordshire. So it's become a kind of almost like a gang culture,
I believe. So I think this is something you're going to be hearing a lot about if you're
not already. So I think it would be great to address this today if we can. Thank you.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:34:54
Thank you, Chairman. I completely agree. It's not a problem in Oxfordshire, it's a problem
across towns where it's a problem across the country.
And I do think there's some wider,
I think the wider solutions are far beyond just policing.
There is an issue about the sale and the regulation
of e -scooters, e -bikes, all those sorts of things.
And they cause some real problems for policing.
They are, there are some enforcement issues around,
if I describe them as otherwise law -abiding folk,
I wouldn't want to condone using an e -bike
or an e -scooter illegally, but you might have someone who's not committing any other offending,
they are using their e -scooter or their e -bike as a way of getting around commuting in one of
our towns or cities. And some people, and I can understand the issue, some people don't understand
the logic of I can go into Oxford or Milton Keynes, I can get on a council -sponsored one
that's got insurance, and yet I can't use the one that I own myself, and it's all about the
insurance. Now I think there is an argument in there that we're beyond these
were all introduced as trials I think we're beyond the world of a trial I
think we know the pros and cons of these things government even either needs to
remove them or needs to allow individuals to ensure them and that you
know I'm sure there is a market for it out there if only the regulations were
changed that would allow those people who want to get out about in our
towns and cities to safely and legally use e -scooters and e -bikes lawfully
because they would be able to get insurance they would I think you'd need
to have a registration scheme as you do with the council one so they can be
identified and then it nine times out of ten those people will be as any other
road users and there will be some traffic offences to pick up but actually
that will allow the police to focus on those who are the much more egregious
offenders who are the ones who are riding dangerously, they are using those vehicles
for other criminal offences, particularly we know lots of suspicion around drug dealing,
etc, because it makes it much easier to evade the police.
So I think firstly there is a piece that government needs to solve this problem or help to solve
this problem rather than just enforcing our way out of it.
In terms of activity, there is a lot of activity that TVP do, but I think we see the scale
of the problem so I can understand the response from some of not enough is
being done and of course we can't realistically put every police officer in
Thames Valley on dealing with e -bikes and e -scooters all at the time but in
the month of June the figures I've collected very quickly are correct we
had 111 e -bikes and e -scooters destroyed that was for the one month of June I
find very quickly the figures for later months this year.
So there is a lot of activity.
Those are those ones that are destroyed.
The seizures will be much more significant in terms of their numbers because depending
on the regulations used, not all of them are necessarily destroyed.
So you've actually got quite a lot of activity.
There is a tactical challenge for the police.
So you'll be aware of the case some time ago in Cardiff, I think it was,
where a couple of young lads were killed following a police pursuit.
I'm really clear that the police shouldn't be too risk averse,
but we also need to be realistic that any police pursuit can be dangerous.
And that's why, whether it's in a car or a push bike or an e -bike,
the police have to be really careful about how they're doing that.
not just because of the person on the e -bike,
but those other people around
who may well be caught up in a pursuit.
So that always needs to be properly risk assessed.
And of course, if you've got officers,
whether they be on a push bike or in a car themselves,
their ability to safely pursue someone
who can dip down an alleyway,
which is too small for a vehicle,
and which speed which is too fast for someone on foot to catch up with them,
there is a problem in terms of how we do this. Now the tactical approach to that,
there are several things that are being looked at. One in terms of, well two
things in terms of pursuit, we are looking at the use of DNA spray. So this
has been used in some places, been trialled to see that officers will be
able to effectively spray someone as they are riding away from a scene. That is the
same technology as we use for tool marking and other things. Therefore, if you can identify
that offender later, you can prove that that individual was at that scene because they've
got a forensic link to it. So it allows to avoid a dangerous pursuit but still hold someone
to account for criminal behaviour. We're also looking at some of the work that's
been done in some parts of Terence Valley already and seeing how we can find a resource
to extend it which is the use of drones by our neighbourhood teams that would allow some
limited pursuit by drone but also of course it gives the ability to see where people have
gone. I think it's all incredibly helpful in terms of tackling some of the issues around
drug dealing whether that relates to e -scooters or not. If you know you've got an area that's
susceptible to drug dealing as soon as you put police officers out sometimes even if
they are playing closed, the presence of other people around
can deter that activity and you don't catch people.
However, a drone at a decent height
that can identify someone and follow them,
whether that be on an e -scooter or other,
is incredibly powerful.
So it's been useful in a few operations so far,
and there is some work going on
to look at how that could be extended.
So yes, there is a real issue.
I wouldn't want anybody to leave here
thinking there's not a lot being done,
and we're exploring those other tactics to say,
well this isn't just a case of throwing resource at it,
it's a case of how we're gonna go about catching people.
And for me really focusing on those most,
the worst ones, those who are dangerous
in the way they're riding
and those who are committing other criminal offences
at the same time.
This is not just about going after people
for lack of insurance as some sort of cash cow.
The other thing I would say again,
in terms of producing evidence around some of the,
some of the more difficult classes of vehicles.
So some e -bikes can be challenging to identify
whether or not they've been illegally modified
in order, because they can't get more than 15 miles an hour
or have more than 13 horsepower, I forget the details.
But there is a trial being looked at
that's been used in other force.
I was talking to some officers about it the other day
looking to get a, effectively a small portable rolling road
that can be used for operations to measure the speed of all the vehicles at
the road so actually if you're doing this wouldn't just be an officer who
comes across someone but if you do a town centre operation and you're seeking
to seize a number you've actually got a way of evidencing the speed and power of
a vehicle outside of the road to justify seizure thank you
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:42:10
thank you very much chair I've nearly forgotten what was going to ask but it
It was a follow up.
Oh yeah, that's it.
My colleagues have asked when will you do more
visibility cheques in Oxford?
Well, I won't be because I'm not warranted, unfortunately.
What fun I could have.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:42:28
So I guess my point would be,
we are already doing quite a lot, actually,
and we've got to do that in conjunction
with all those other things that we need to do.
Happy to take that away and have a conversation
with the local command team who would be prioritising those taskings and I would
imagine that they will be liaising with the Oxford City Council Community Safety
team anyway to make them aware of of their operational plans. Thank you if we

8 Progress Report from the PCC on the Implementation of Recommendations from the Panel's Violence against Women and Girls Task and Finish Group

9 Update on TVP Financial Position

could move on then please to item 9 update on TV piece financial position

8 Progress Report from the PCC on the Implementation of Recommendations from the Panel's Violence against Women and Girls Task and Finish Group

Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:43:04
I do apologise, question eight, I do apologise.
Progress report on the BCC on the implementation recommendations from the panel's Violence
Against Women and Girls Task and Finish group.
Yeah, thank you, I won't spend a lot of time on this.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:43:25
Hopefully the update is helpful for members and sets out some of the ongoing work that
is still being done.
And obviously we've looked at these recommendations several times before.
I think it was the last one of the recommendations, which was that separate reporting route, which
I've said I'm not going to do and I don't agree with the recommendation because these
are just recommendations.
That position hasn't changed, but I think all of the others are there to demonstrate
the progress being made.
Thank you.
Pamela?
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:43:49
Thank you.
I share a slightly different view from you.
Um, and given the continuing national concerns around police culture, um, public confidence,
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:44:02
um, it's really important, I think, that you scrutinise Temps Valley Police's progress
in tackling misogyny, sexism, victim -blaming behaviours.
When we look at, and that's one of the reasons that we set up the, you know, one thing that
we were looking at in the, um, in the Task and Finish group.
The recommendation three was that there be clarity on how Thames Valley Police implements
a culture change.
Um, when we've got this report, um, it's almost laughable for me that one of the things that
they're doing and holding up as like, look at what we're doing, isn't this fantastic,
is that they've got a series of webinars available for officers and staff to watch, including
several topics.
To me, this just smacks of tokenism.
I'm just aghast, really, and I wondered whether you were satisfied with it, because to have
a series of webinars available for people to watch if they would like to doesn't seem
to me to be tackling the root and branch issue that we've got and that the public and the
media are really concerned about.
Thank you.
I note your concerns.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:45:17
I think there's a wide range of the training that we do, which does include online webinars
for all sorts of training that policing does because of the nature of having a dispersed
workforce.
But I think it's not just down to the training, and to be fair, not specifically in the paper,
but actually you need to look at the work that's being done more broadly by PSD in
terms of some of the discipline work within policing, continuing to root out those who
are responsible of offences and poor behaviour within policing and holding those individuals
to account and throwing them out of the organisation.
And that does link with the last point which is in there, which is about having the ISFA
within the organisation to improve reporting for those within policing who might not otherwise
have the confidence to report, but also to support them through those investigations.
I think that any cultural change is difficult and is long -term, and I do think that having
some of that online training can be a useful part of it, but I don't think that's the – I
don't think that would be the whole picture of all of the conversations around this subject
within TVP.
I mean, it's part of people's initial training, around the work that's being done around
VORG, both for victims and behaviour within the organisation.
I think admittedly not in the paper, but I think that broader conduct issue is a really
important one.
Sorry.
Yeah, I understand that you think it's important.
Cllr Pamela Mackenzie-Reilly - Co-opted Independent - 0:46:53
I'm not clear on whether you think sufficient is being done and how you are checking that
it's being done because this report to me says that something that's available, it doesn't
seem to be mandatory, it doesn't, or, you know, maybe it is, but they haven't persuaded
me that anything has been, is really being done apart from it's there if you want to,
and the people who need it may not be accessing it.
And I understand what you're saying about reporting, and I don't doubt that there is
some good work that's being done, but that's not being highlighted by this, and I understand
that you take it seriously.
I'm not minimising that. But I just want to know how you think changes are going to
be made. Okay. So in terms of what's mandatory, I
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:47:44
couldn't tell you for sure at this meeting whether that particular training programme
is mandatory. I would cheque. But there are lots of other mandatory programmes which will
cover part of that behaviour. Because it's part of lots of other aspects of work within
TVP. That's a particular change point, which is why it's included in the update, because
it's not part of the basic stuff that has been responded to previously.
I do think that those – that support within the organisation, the ISFAs, we've got a
new group that's been set up by one of the PCOs in Oxford here around domestic abuse
support for individuals within the organisation, and those who are – what would be – it's
not language I would normally use, but the sort of male allies within that group.
So this is not just about focusing on victims, but it's about that broader change in culture.
And I do go back to the misconduct point that actually if you look at some of those issues
that the Chief has been dealing with, you still see not only those being dealt with
effectively by the police when issues are raised, but also the fact that that willingness
to report within the organisation I think is still there from those who aren't necessarily
victims who aren't necessarily impacted but they see poor behaviour in the organisation
that often leads to that reporting. So we do monitor the uptake of mandatory training,
for example. I don't think we have around this particular item of training. So you're
asking me am I comfortable with the work that TPP are doing? Yes, I am. I think there are
real efforts being done within the organisation to make sure that there is a healthy culture
and this highlights some of those things. That's my view, others can obviously disagree,
But yes, I am comfortable and we do monitor those points of training.
Thank you.
Councillor Osher?
Sorry, Councillor Forster, I do apologise.
Sorry, when I put my hand up, it was to ask a similar question to the follow -up and which
Mr. Barber has now answered.
Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council - 0:49:40
I have to say, if there is a comprehensive enough programme in place to achieve genuine
culture change, because this is, this kind of culture change is pretty deep -rooted and
needs a lot more than I can see is being set out.
So could I ask that we have a further report on this and a discussion, because the only
way I can square Mr. Barber's satisfaction and what we've got on paper in front of
us is there must be other things going on that have not been reported, because it just
doesn't look to me like this is adequate to achieve the objective.
So can we have a further report setting out everything that's being done so that we can
be convinced that this is actually a comprehensive approach to culture change, because what we've
been told so far clearly isn't?
Certainly.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:50:25
Would you think that you'd want the report for later this year or the beginning of next
year?
Would you like sort of six months or three months?
Well, my assumption, based on the answer we've been given, is that this work is happening.
Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council - 0:50:35
We just haven't been told about it.
So I can't see why we couldn't have it to the next meeting.
The next meeting in November, Mr. Burke?
In principle, that's fine.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:50:42
What I would want to go back, and I haven't got access to the papers now, this is an update
on recommendations that we had previously and we've given previous updates.
And my recollection is, but I may be proved wrong, which is why I want to cheque, that
actually the previous responses to this recommendation have been fuller and have given previous information
to the panel.
And so it may well be a case we just need to reiterate what's there.
But I guess my point would be this is intended to be an update.
It's not intended to cover everything because we've had some of that work before.
And I think the two together should answer it.
Of course, if members want to discuss the whole thing again, but I just think if we've
already covered, if we've answered that once in response, there's probably no point going
through it again.
If when we go back and cheque, there wasn't a full enough response last time, obviously
very happy to come back.
Yeah, I mean, I think what's just been outlined would, if that's correct, would satisfy,
Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council - 0:51:34
would say it may simply be that we've had different bits of reports at different times.
This is a serious issue and I think it would be helpful to have it all properly set out
in one place so that we can be satisfied and we can be satisfied why Mr. Barber is satisfied.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:51:53
It is, and sorry, Chairman, this does go back to Councillor Fawcett's challenge quite reasonably.
There's two years ago that we did these recommendations, so obviously there should be an outcome, but
equally we have reported on them several times in the last two years. My recollection is
that we have provided more detail about the response to these recommendations on previous
occasions in which case we will table those reports again.
I think in view of what has been said we would like a further update or rather a report,
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:52:21
I do apologise not an update because I notice obviously the author of the report is from
your office as opposed to Thames Valley Police. It would be interesting to have a corresponding
support report from Thames Valley Police as well as your office because their perspective
might be slightly different and obviously access to more data. I don't know how you
feel about that.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:52:51
From recollection, and I'm now in dangerous ground because I'm putting a
lot on my recollection and I can't quite remember what I was doing
earlier today, the previous response did include quite a detailed
response from the then Assistant Chief Constable Katie Barrow -Grint, who
previously led for the force on this before leaving to go to Gloucestershire.
So again, I think we've probably got a pretty detailed response to what
the panel is asking for which has been tabled previously which includes those comments from
TVP.
I'm happy to dig that out and if necessary update it.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 0:53:25
I think it would be beneficial for an update in both reports both from your office and
from Thames Valley Police.
Then we can see where the progress has been made hopefully between the two years ago when
the first report was put in by Kathy Grint and today.
Thank you.
There's one more question.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 0:53:50
My question was going to be around obviously we've got lots of services after, but I wanted
to ask you about, you know, I did ask once before as well that when women are taken into
custody, are the strip searches made on women by women and is that facility given?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:54:18
Yes, in terms of normal regulations in line with PACE, if a female needs to be searched,
then they would be searched by a female officer.
Thank you.
If there's no more questions, I will move on to the article I was going to go to before
it got wrong.
No, an update on TVP's financial position, please.
Thank you, Joe.
This is very high level.

9 Update on TVP Financial Position

Happy to go into it if members wish to, but obviously we are some months away from budget
setting, but hopefully it is useful to those members of the budget panel.
We are showing a small underspend at the moment, but we are obviously only so far through the
year, and the report does highlight a number of those significant financial pressures coming
down the track, including the savings that still need to be made within this year, 4 .9
million, and our forecast that we need to be looking at future year savings of circa
15 million.
this is this continues to be a very challenging financial time for policing.
Added to that there are two particular issues of concern that were three
actually that I would highlight. One just because it's been mentioned this panel
many times before which is a number of areas where I think Thames Valley Police
specifically is being shortchanged on things like state visits we've got
a significant drain on TVP resources.
So far the response from the Home Office
has been that they won't provide additional funding.
I'm like a dog with a bone and won't be letting that one go.
However, that...
I think Councillor Newton's got a question on that.
Councillor Newton, your question please.
Thank you, yes.
It's because the report was silent on it
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 0:56:15
and I was recollecting that we'd previously discussed
the impact of the visit from President Trump
and how the force was left out of pocket on that.
So I'm assuming that that hasn't been resolved
from the statement you just made,
which I find extraordinarily disappointing
because it means that the residents of Thames Valley
are picking up the costs for the country
and for the government.
And I think that's an appalling situation
because it also means that it puts extra strain
on the other things that we've been talking about
which impacts the residents here.
From what you've just said,
we've got another state visit coming,
my suggestion to you would be
that you only provide the resources
that are covered by the cost that the government,
and if that means there's one police officer that's present,
so be it, and they need to understand
that they can't just expect the residents of Thames Valley
to pick up the bill for when the government
decides to extend these invitations.
I'm not against these people coming here.
I'm not against the benefits of the country.
Then the country should be paying rather than the small number of the residents of the country.
And I think that is absolutely disgraceful that they're expecting the rest of us to pick
up that cost and not compensate the police force.
So if they won't do that, that's fair enough, then the police can only provide the cover
and the support that is covered by what they pay.
That's my feeling.
Thank you, Jim.
I will happily address that.
Just to cover the point I was going to make about this in the context of the broader financial
issues, of course, that those costs, significant though they are important and why I'm determined
that we do continue to pursue it, are only one -off costs.
So where we are needing to save nearly £5 million this year and circa £15 million next
year, that won't help us because they are one -off cost lines for those.
Clearly, solving the problem to some extent for the future will help us over the next
couple of years for more state visits, but they will not fill the gap that we've got.
To answer that point directly, I sympathise with that and there are lots of areas where I will push for a less risk averse line from policing and from some of our other partners.
I'm very happy to play hardball as people would say.
I think the real risk around that is of course that the protection that's put in place at state visits is not just for the principal who is being protected.
It is for visitors, it's for residents in Thames Valley who if there were to be a terrorism
incident in those circumstances may well be subject to targeted attacks as well.
So whilst I can sympathise with the sentiment, I think the reality is if we were to say well
we're not going to provide policing for a state visit in Windsor, it wouldn't just be
the King and his guests who might well be under more risk, it might well be the good
people of Windsor and visitors to the town because we wouldn't be providing that extra
protection for them.
So I think that is the reality we're in.
However, we are exploring different tactical approaches to the finance, which I wouldn't
want to necessarily go into here prior to the event, and we will continue to pursue
the Home Office for those bits of funding.
In the absence of the Chairman, if I just carry on with a few other highlights, I said
there were three things.
That was one of them.
I've now got to remember the other two because I've broken my flow.
So, one of them is around the neighbourhood policing guarantee, as is called.
I highlighted last year, and I fear it will be just the same this year, that government
will talk in headline figures about the number of police officers being funded by force.
There are two problems with the neighbourhood guarantee.
Firstly, that we only get a proportion of the funding.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 0:59:59
I think it was 60 % last year of the cost of a police officer who was funded by the Home
office, that leaves local taxpayers with 40 per cent to pick up the bill for.
And of course virtually no option but to do it.
We all want more police officers, but if you're getting – if they're costing you 40 per
cent of the total cost themselves, we can't say, well, we can't afford to do that, because
forces are penalised if they don't deliver them.
They are also ring -fenced for neighbourhood.
Again, I'm very supportive of that.
That's all very good.
But we do need officers in terms of our domestic abuse investigation units.
We need officers who are doing roads policing and firearms.
So the restrictions being put on us by the Home Office currently are really problematic
in terms of where those resources go.
So when we get a headline, as I'm sure we will early in the new year, that the Home
Office are giving us X amount for new police officers, I'm reasonably confident that at
the same time the core grant will have dropped and we will actually end up with a bigger
bill for those neighbourhood officers that the government are talking about.
I think that's probably, there was a third point, but I'm afraid it escapes me now.
Chairman, happy to take any questions?
Thanks for that.
A couple of follow -ups.
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:01:07
I did want to pick up on something specifically within the report about the support that's
being made available for the Jewish community, which is welcome.
I'll send you an email direct because I think there's a specific query on that.
There's another growing pressure again in the north of the force area around the home
office proposals for ACAMP and there's been some really quite ugly incidents. There's
clearly policing implications on that. What steps have been taken to try and ensure there's
adequate resourcing for what is potentially a very lengthy and very, very toxic set of
issues in that part of the world, assuming the Home Office doesn't see sense and withdraw
the proposals, which I suspect we would all agree is the best course of action here.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:01:58
Thank you. I thought I would come up with some point. A site at Bicester, as the Chairman
instructs me to call it, not Site A, A site at Bicester is indeed a very controversial
I've had. One meeting with Home Office officials so far, we've got another one scheduled
to get more into the detail around the finances.
My ask is pretty simple.
It's not a welcome one by the Home Office, but I'd like half a million pounds every year
once this site is fully up and running.
The logic for that, this is not just me pulling a finger out of the air, but if you take the
total number of individuals who are going to be housed in that site when it is fully
built out, and I accept that it will be a gradual process, but if you take the total
number of individuals there and you assume that in a normal civilian
environment they were living two per household and we actually built some
Bandy properties in that site then without any additional funding from the
Home Office the the Bandy council tax take for that number of people suddenly
arriving anywhere else in Thames Valley would be roughly equivalent to half
million pounds that's not the exact figure but for purposes of this meeting
Therefore, I think it's a perfectly reasonable case to say, well, actually, if these were
British citizens and a site that was being developed commercially, we would get that
money anyway, it wouldn't cost the Home Office anything, that would just be the way this
worked.
It's therefore not an unreasonable assumption that given any increase in population is going
to bring an increase in crime, because it's people that commit crime, that is the minimum
that we should need.
I'm linking that in then with operational policing as to what that money could then
be used for, so it's not just a number but it's actually talking about what they would
need for it.
I'm sceptical about whether we will get half a million pounds a year from the Home Office.
I think in Essex where they had a similar case they got funding for two police officers,
and that's as in two individual police officers so when they're off duty they're off duty,
it's not two police officers 24 hours a day or anything.
So I think there is a significant gap between what the Home Office are thinking they can
get away with giving us and where I think reasonably we can ask. We have
another meeting with the Home Office later this month with the force
operational lead as well. I'm very happy to report back as there'll be lots of
public commentary on it I'm sure nearer the time. There are obviously
lots of advanced plans from Thames Valley Police in terms of how
operationally they manage it but I do want to make sure that the force is not
out of pocket as a result as far as possible.
Thank you.
Councillor Oshert first please.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:04:41
Yeah, I wanted to ask, one moment, sorry.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 1:04:43
I wanted to ask a question.
Obviously I welcome the dedicated funding
to protect the Jewish communities from antisemitism.
However, given the scale of anti -Muslim hate
and Islamophobia, can you confirm
whether there is any dedicated funding
All programmes scheduled for Thames Valley to tackle Islamophobia, strengthen our policing,
visibility and improve engagement with the Muslim communities?
And if not, will you commit to making the case for equivalent investment?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:05:19
So in terms of funding and programmes from the Home Office, no, I'm not aware of any.
There is some small funding included in the grant already around places of worship, which
which covers all places of worship,
so that would have previously covered synagogues
as well as mosques, as well as churches.
And I think TVP, and I have something in Oxford,
this is fair to say that the local force
have a very good relationship actually
with all of those places of worship
and religious communities, Muslim, Jewish, Christian,
and others within the city.
So what I can do is commit that
from a Thames Valley Police perspective,
we will continue to do that.
There are obviously particular operations at the moment going on over the coming weeks
for the Jewish High Holy Days and there is the use of this additional funding going forward.
I think that should be welcomed and there will continue to be work, as I say, we've
done locally already with our mosques and synagogues and churches and other places where
there is any.
Is there additional resource?
No, not that I've heard any rumblings of from the Home Office.
Of course, looking at the specifics behind the funding, which come from the Home Office,
and obviously you need to speak to the Home Office if you want to get into that.
But of course, it is linked to some specific terrorist activity that we've seen in the
UK, particularly around attacks in Manchester and London.
And although we don't have any intelligence in Thames Valley of anything at the moment,
which would make anybody a target here, thankfully.
We need to recognise that the counterterrorism situation is at severe,
and so there is a significant likelihood across the country,
and that's where I think the Home Office have come to this funding.
Now, this is welcome.
I think my broader concern, which I've raised at the time,
is this was just over £200 million worth of funding from the Home Office,
which is great, and we've got our share of it.
But actually, if the Home Office had a spare £200 million, we could be doing much more
to protect our Jewish, we could have been doing much more to protect our Jewish communities
already by increasing our neighbourhood policing.
That's not to say I don't welcome the grant, it's just I would like the Home Office to
give us as much money as we can so we can do this sort of stuff as business as usual,
rather than just because they funded it specifically.
Oh, sorry.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 1:07:47
Just coming back on a couple of points that have been made.
Firstly, what Councillor Epps was saying about a site in Bicester.
I live about half a mile from what was an asylum hotel in the Wokingham area.
I think your proposal is perfectly reasonable, in fact more than reasonable, on the basis
that if you look at the number of calls that the police had to deal with in the Wokingham
situation compared to the equivalent number of houses
for housing that population,
then naturally you're being, again, quite generous
in that suggestion.
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to hope
that that money will be forthcoming.
Coming back, if I may, again on the state visit situation,
I get why you're saying what you're saying
in terms of you want to try and look out
for the wider population and the duty of care and so on.
I understand that.
I think it's playing on your goodwill to a large extent.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing,
but it's not necessarily fair for the population.
I believe that I'm right in saying that football clubs
have to pay for the level of police protection
at matches and so on.
And I'm assuming that football clubs pay 100 % of the bill
that goes with that, or more or less as can be assessed.
And therefore I think again that in the same way
that the government, rather than relying upon your goodwill
and the goodwill of our pockets, which we have no say in,
they should get what they pay for
and they should take the risk.
And it shouldn't reflect on yourself
and it shouldn't reflect on Thames Valley.
But if they're not willing to fund something,
I don't see why the rest of us should.
I take your point, I'm not expecting to come back again.
I just want to raise the point.
I just think this is them taking advantage
and it's not right for our residents.
the
Don't disagree.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:09:45
≫ Thank you, if there is no further questions on the subject,
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:09:50
I will move on to the next one, the Thames valley CCTV

10 Thames Valley CCTV Partnership

partnership.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:09:58
≫ Thank you, chairman.
The CCTV partnership we've touched on many times at this meeting, but hopefully this
provides a helpful update and it's certainly a timely one because the Oxfordshire control
room is live within a matter of days.
Certainly the collective move into Thames Valley Police control has happened and last
time I was talking to the team down there they literally had the decorators in during
the last bits of touching up.
So the focus, the purpose of this to reiterate to people is to recognise that no one has
a statutory duty to provide CCTV in this country and it often falls between the police and
local authorities and the picture across Thames Valley has been very varied.
Where two or three years ago Slough had somewhere around 160 cameras and they were going to
turn them off because the council was bankrupt.
We had a situation in Milton Keynes where there were 51 cameras and only eight of them were working.
Thanks to the capital investment from Milton Keynes Council and the investment we put in, the coverage now is significantly better.
But what we've done is to move those into a system which is owned and operated, monitored and maintained by Thames Valley Police in order to give some stability to it.
We've put more money in from my side and we've tried to provide a model which still requires an investment from local authorities.
but in most cases it does work out slightly cheaper.
So we've got a control room now in Milton Keynes,
which monitors Milton Keynes and Slough.
We've got a single control room in Oxfordshire,
which monitors all of the previously district -controlled CCTV
across the county.
We are having some conversations with Reading.
I'm not sure about the direction of travel they want to go in,
but I saw the leader of the council last week
and asked them to make sure they are looking at it again with a fresh mind.
I regularly invite Buckinghamshire to take a look at what we've done in Oxfordshire as
a potential model and we're having conversations with some of the other Berkshire authorities.
Berkshire is probably the most disparate coverage because some of the boroughs have none or
virtually no CCTV coverage that's controlled by the unitary councils.
So we will continue to do that.
It's been a huge success frankly for something a lot of people thought we couldn't do in
those areas that we've done it. It's saved local authorities money, it's given
us stability, we've got more effective CCTV, it more effectively supports
operational policing on the ground and is all good news on that front. In
addition we are looking at what additional funding we might be able to
find to increase the number of cameras and move those cameras around and make
sure we've got a fund already for the renewal of equipment because there's no
point having a big capital programme and not expecting there to be some costs down the
road but we are looking at what we might be able to do in terms of increasing the coverage
without eating into that renewal programme.
Have we any questions in respect to the CCTV and its progress?
I think it's welcome and I'm really pleased to be recognising investment in Milton Keynes
and the work that my council has been doing with TPP on this.
Just in terms of other types of monitoring,
so for example the use of trains in certain situations,
particularly in areas,
and that might be some that's more prevalent in rural areas
where it's difficult to have CCTV,
if you've got spots that are where you know actively happen.
So in my patch we've got a Blue Lagoon nature reserve,
over the summer anti -social behaviour has gone through the roof.
It's not as bad as it used to be in previous years.
Cllr Rob Parkinson - Cherwell District Council - 1:13:48
fires, et cetera, and all this sort of stuff.
Cllr Ed Hume - Milton Keynes City Council - 1:13:51
And it's sometimes when a helicopter comes on
and it's looking for people,
it's impossible to ever get CCTV into some of those areas.
Naturally, how can we look at having other monitoring
that it may not catch somebody doing something,
but it will be a deterrent to some activity
that goes into some of the spots.
Specific times as well, because it's time limited.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:14:10
And I think that's where drones are a really good example
of using that.
And I touched on earlier about neighbourhood teams
potentially using them around e -bikes and drug dealing,
I think that's exactly that sort of programme.
So if we can take some of the successes we've had
from a small team in Berkshire,
and there is some active work about looking at
how we can spread that across terms of value,
the cost and difficulty around drones is not about the kit.
Yeah, the drones that TBP use are more expensive
than the ones you might have bought yourself
if you fancy a drone.
I've got one that I use occasionally.
It's all good fun,
but we do spend a little bit more on them than those,
but not tens of thousands.
We're talking about relatively low -cost pieces of equipment.
The challenge is around the licencing of the pilots.
So unlike you when you just go to Argos and buy a drone and pop it up,
there are training requirements both by the Civil Aviation Authority
and the National Police Chief's Council and the College of Policing,
and over time those requirements seem to get more and more stringent
and cost more and more in terms of abstraction time, et cetera.
So part of the work to look at how we spread this
is not just a case of the capital
of how we go out and buy them,
but it's making sure that the neighbourhood teams
that we want to put those drones into
have got someone who's actually able to fly it,
and that we've got enough training time
for them to go and redo it.
So there's quite a complicated piece of work
around resourcing, but I think it's absolutely doable,
and will bring some real benefits.
Just to follow on that,
you say there's a piece of work to do around this.
Cllr Ed Hume - Milton Keynes City Council - 1:15:38
When do you expect that work to be completed?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:15:44
As part of the budget setting programme, certainly, is conversations I've had with the Chief
Constable and I wouldn't want to hold anybody to it, but I would expect to see a line in
the budget plans for this year to say, well, actually, if we are going to implement it,
it's going to cost X in terms of drones and training time so that we can at least implement
it for the new financial year.
It's being used in places now, so it's not a case of, you know, suck it and see.
It's a case of how do we properly implement this across the board and make sure it's
fully funded, I would say, at the start of the next financial year at the latest.
Is there any further questions in respect to CCTV?
If not – oh, sorry, Councillor Hutchison.
I was going to ask you about the facial recognition.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 1:16:26
How long has that kept the data?
For an individual who walks past it and is not recognised, it's kept for less than a
fraction of a second.
For those who aren't on a watch list, then it's not kept, frankly, other than the time
it's processing.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:16:51
In terms of someone who is identified, then I believe it will be kept for the same period
of time as any other evidence because it yeah that will then become evidence that
you were on a watchlist you we saw you in this location and that would be
retained for the same sort of periods that you would expect body warm video
and all those other things to be to be retained for and but if you are not on a
watchlist then it's not retained
okay
Can I just ask a question?
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 1:17:21
What kind of things would be like high profile in terms of facial recognition, the whole point of having it in the first place?
Is it from low level robbers or is it for higher level?
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:17:38
So it can be everything and the watch lists can be created for every operation.
They come to I don't these operations so I don't get to sign them off but I do get a
site of, you know, not the individuals on the list but the categories that are being
looked at and the outcomes of those operations.
We broaden those lists to make sure that they are more effective.
They will cover everything from individuals who are wanted, i .e. we've got an identity
and we're looking for you because there is a warrant or you're a suspect in a case.
we can include images where we don't know someone's identity,
but they are wanted.
So there's some CCTV of an image from an incident,
but we don't have a name,
but they may well be in there to identify,
and that's arguably one of the most useful purposes of it,
in my view.
We can have those who are outstanding from court.
So there was one recently, one of the operations,
one of the first operations actually before Christmas,
where someone was wanted in court in Oxford.
and they were effectively detected. We've also got a new category that's been included
registered sex offenders who are being monitored. Now, they may also fall into a category they're
wanted somewhere, but they may just fall into a category of being registered sex offenders,
and actually if someone can do the – effectively do the visit to a registered sex offender
randomly in the street, they can – the officer can do all of those cheques on that person
to make sure they're abiding by the conditions of their order, and it also takes a little
bit of burden away because if they had an appointment coming up in a week's time and
they've been seen they don't need to be seen in a week so we take a little bit of pressure
off other teams but actually I think it's probably a much more effective way of ensuring
we're keeping tabs on people if we can find them randomly rather than a designated appointment.
Thank you. I think that's all the questions on that subject. If we could move on please

11 Police Reform Update

to Item 11 the police reform update.
Thank you, Chairman. So you've got, you've obviously got the report in front of you.
There is as ever a huge amount of uncertainty in this. As is mentioned in the paper, we
were expecting last week, last week, the week before the brief period when Parliament was
back before the conference recess to be when the legislation would be tabled, and it wasn't,
and it's rumoured to be January of 2027, but we haven't had that confirmed and given they missed
the last deadline it's not clear they'll hit this deadline. The intention of the Home Office always
was to publish the legislation in September and to get to Royal Assent by May of 2027.
In my view that was incredibly ambitious on what are massive constitutional changes in some places,
which I think will come into some resistance in the House of Lords and from a lot of backbench
HMPs when they think about the implications, et cetera.
So I think that was really ambitious to try and go from September to May in the parliamentary
timetable.
They are still privately at least saying they're going to introduce the legislation in January
and they're still aiming for May.
And that seems impossible in my mind, but that's what the Home Office are still planning
to do.
Part of the reason for their ambition is that there are bits of the legislation which will
enable them to start building the National Police Service as part of it and they want
to be doing that in April, May of next year and they can't get into a position where
they're starting to recruit and employ people before there's actually a statutory framework
for it.
So that's their ambition.
I don't think they will get there.
If we see legislation in January 27, I would expect it will be the back end of the calendar
year of 2027 before it gets royal assent if all goes smoothly for them and then
they are in a challenging position in terms of the governance perspective sides.
The force changes, the creation of the MP of the MPS frankly there's no real
deadline on they can do that at any point but they publicly stated the PCCs
and of course police and crime panels will be abolished in 2028 that's given
them a hard deadline and if you get to the end of 2027 and you haven't still passed the
legislation you're cutting that quite fine to create the new police and crime boards,
to create the new police and crime leads etc. Not impossible but I do think they've got
some challenges. Alongside that is the Hogan Howe review which is looking at the size of
police forces. I'm told there are disagreements between the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister
on that point in particular in terms of forced mergers. Again, it was supposed to be published
at the end of the summer. Government departments always stretch seasons, don't they? But I
think now we're firmly into September, I call that autumn, and they haven't got there yet.
So I wouldn't be surprised if that comes much later. Now obviously it will be after
the conference season, so it could be October, November time ahead of legislation in January.
The short answer is in the meantime we don't know. But I have got a meeting next week that
I'm chairing along with local authority chief executives to talk about transition
from my office to what would be this new thing owned collectively by local government leaders.
The delay doesn't help because we were hoping that by September we would have a framework
and we could start discussing things.
But I think it's really important we still have those conversations and talk about what
we do know and maybe even just highlight the things we don't know.
So I think that will change the mood of the meeting.
and interestingly the Home Office are no longer attending that meeting.
We were having a representative of the Home Office to come on and talk to us.
Now it's been delayed, they don't know what they're doing, so we don't have a civil servant
there.
I think that's probably quite telling about their preparedness for the changes.
Thank you.
I will move on.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:23:24
There was a question that Councillor Fawcett, who's been disposed at the moment, was going
to raise on that subject.

12 Chairman/PCC Updates and Topical Issues Report

So we will go on to the item 12, the chairman's PCC updates and topical issues report.
A lot of those items recovering the events regarding the government's actions in relation
to the early release schemes.
There was, though, Temer's Valley is told to improve investigations and safe, hold on
second because cancer Fosse is back.
Councillor Fosse, you had a question in relation to the police reform update.
I did, but I think it's actually been answered by what Mr Babb has already said.
Thank you.
Sorry, I'll carry on then.
That's the Thames Valley told to improve investigations and safeguard in the BBC report, following
the report from the emergency inspectors of the fire and rescue service.
Council Epps, do you want to start on this one, please?
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:24:34
Thank you, chair.
Cllr Timothy Faltermeyer - Cherwell District Council - 1:24:45
I would like to raise with you, Mr. Barber, the issue about the dedicated rape investigation
unit.
The fact that the force didn't have one.
You mentioned earlier about Surrey. Surrey has had one for over ten years.
Hampshire has had one for almost ten years.
So I wonder why we haven't had one or Thames Valley haven't had one.
And it mentions in the BBC report that often officers assigned to rape and serious sexual offences aren't qualified.
And yet Thames Valley Police say they're already taking action.
Can you tell us what action Thames Valley Police are doing and also about the development
of the specialist rape units?
Thank you, Chairman.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:25:33
I'm very happy to go into more detail separately in terms of funding because we normally look
at the HMIC recommendations and do that.
I'm happy, I think that's probably in general for the next meeting.
I think, but happy to pick this up now, but we will have more detail in writing for those
points.
So, in terms of the levels of qualification, I think this relates to the PIP level of investigative
staff.
So, there is a programme to broaden the training.
Part of the challenge of that, I think, has been moving people from one team to another,
where they will come into that team, they're learning their job, they're not yet – they
haven't yet met that investigative level.
So that's certainly a conversation
that I've picked up with the Chief Constable.
It's clearly one of those recommendations.
There is a programme of work to make sure
that those officers allocated those cases
have fulfilled that and increased the number of officers
to the right PIP level for the right offence.
I think in terms of, and this is why I'd be very happy
to come back with a bit more detail.
I think in terms of the dedicated rape investigation team,
there is a professional judgement from senior officers
in Thames Valley that actually the model they've got works well. It fits with the
Oppsateria Principles which is the programme developed in Avon and Somerset around dealing
with sexual offences and actually having, changing the structure to have a single rape
investigation team may not be the best answer for supporting victims in Thames Valley. Given
the size of the force, you end up with one team which might be geographically located
a long way from others, rather than having some of those investigations being managed
by the LCUs in amongst teams who are dealing with other sexual offences, rather than just
the rape. So, there is a professional judgement issue,
which is not, it's an operational one, it's not for me, but it's one that I will continue
to challenge. At the moment, I am satisfied that the Chief Constable and his management
team are taking those recommendations seriously, but of course they are recommendations and
they don't have to be, they don't all have to be enacted, and I think that is one that
is being reviewed as a result of the latest HMIC response. I'm very happy to come back
in more detail with the formal response that we're making to HMIC. But I think the Chief
Constable's view would be, and I don't want to misrepresent him here, but I think his
view would be actually the structures we've got in place are suitable for Thames Valley.
They fit with the opposite area principles and actually a structural change will not
be to the benefit of the victims.
Thank you for that answer. When you bring back the report, will you bring also back
Cllr Timothy Faltermeyer - Cherwell District Council - 1:28:08
with you the rates of investigation, the number of cases, the satisfactory outcomes, the number
of prosecutions and so on, and be able to compare that with, for example, Surrey and
Hampshire. And you mentioned Avon and Somerset, so we can actually see really just how different
those forces are dealing with it and managing it.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:28:32
Yes, certainly, it's one of those areas that we regularly report on that those figures
are easy to come by.
Councillor Epps, please.
I can now be very, very brief because I think you answered the question that I was going
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:28:42
to raise which is around some of the issues about the HMIC report.
But I think if we're coming back to that as a standalone agenda item, we can go into those
in detail.
I mean, Pamela referenced one of the challenges about culture change that links in very much
with the challenges in here about strategic governance, but perhaps if we come back to
that report as a whole, that might be a better way to approach it, so that all members have
got it in front of them.
So, again, I'm happy to deal with any questions anybody's got as best I can today, but I
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:29:16
just found it was on the very last line on the work programme for the November meeting.
The last line before the turn of the page is the Peel inspection for Thames Valley Police,
which is where we would normally provide the responses that the force have made, and then
I've got a statutory duty as well to provide my response to HMIC, so that might be an appropriate
time to get into the detail on those.
Again, my question has just been answered.
Cllr Neil Fawcett - Vale of White Horse District Council - 1:29:42
It's getting a bit like a 2 Ronnies sketch, isn't it?
Who's who?
Yes, thank you.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 1:29:55
I think for me the most important two words in this bit are in this, found the force did
not have a dedicated rape investigation unit.
Well that's okay.
And often officers assigned to rape and serious sexual offences cases, and this is the key
bit, aren't qualified.
And it's the aren't qualified bit.
Location, doing other duties, all okay.
But not qualified when you're going into this when it's such a serious situation.
That's the thing that really struck out to me.
So I think if you can really dig into that, please,
when you talk about it.
So I agree, we will come back with a bit more detail.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:30:25
I mean, that is something that we picked up and raised,
and it came up through the debrief with HMIC.
And there is some, I think, clearer explanation
about what the force of position would be,
and also as a programme of work around training,
so very happy to come back and address that in more detail.
I think that's really important, so thank you.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 1:30:46
Because it also could impact into the response
about violence against women and girls, obviously.
You can form a direct causal link potentially there.
So I think that is a very important thing for me,
if you can cover it up.
Thank you.
Thank you.
One from me for a change.
The relation to you supporting 30 schools
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:31:08
with phone -free funding, I'm a little bit lack of understanding
in the difference between the proceeds of crime funds
and the proceeds of property that's...
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:31:21
So this is what used to be known as the Police Property Act Fund, which probably made it
a bit clearer because it relates to a thing called the Police Property Act of, I think,
1893, something like that.
And we did change the name a couple of years ago to the Community Fund on the logic that
nobody knew what the Police Property Act Fund was.
And of course, now I've changed it, nobody understands where the money came from.
So this is money.
So we get some court orders that provide money to this pot, but it is largely from the sale
of stolen goods.
So it's separate from the Proceeds of Crime Act, which is a different piece of legislation
where monies forfeited get largely sent back to the Treasury, some goes back to the prosecutors,
and some goes back to policing.
I think off the top of my head, policing get about 12 .5 % or something like that of pocket
funding.
But that's separate.
and that gets invested differently and can be used for more direct policing purposes.
So, for example, in the region, we redirect proceeds of crime act funding that comes from
criminals into our estate programme so that taxpayers are paying less in terms of that.
But this is money that has to be used, in the words of the legislation, for charitable
purposes. Now, it doesn't have to be used given to
registered charities, but it has to be used for a charitable purpose, and we've interpreted
that quite broadly over the years. In the case of this, obviously we're supporting
schools and education is a charitable purpose, so it falls within the remit of what the Charity
Commission define. What we've done here is to support schools
to effectively get phones out of classrooms. We know, certainly for conversations that
I've had with schools who've done this or are looking to do it, significant changes
and benefits in terms of behaviour and in terms of attainment. Now I would argue that
that is a good thing for all of us to be pleased about and it's a charitable purpose so that's
all good. It doesn't actually need to be linked to policing. However, I would draw
a link to policing, maybe say why are we doing this from this fund? Well actually, we know
that we've invested quite a lot in terms of our schools officers and the work we do
in schools about prevention.
So I think this supports their work.
So we have officers who will be dealing with offences
that are committed in schools.
Some of those will be literally connected
with mobile phones because they will be
in decent images being shared by mobile phones.
We will see, I would use the word bullying,
but high level bullying that would stray
into the criminal world.
Offences being committed on mobile phones,
clearly restricting some access,
certainly during the school day has a direct benefit. But also we see it more tangentially
that improving behaviour in schools is going to have an impact on improving behaviour out
of schools. If you are badly behaved and disruptive in your lessons, you are likely to be those
children who are badly behaved and disruptive out of lessons. And we know certainly we've
seen it over the summer period when we have the school holidays, always during school
holidays we see a slight increase in antisocial behaviour. Some of that will be hijinks and
and the excess energies of summer, but also some of it is more serious.
So actually what we can do in order to improve behaviour I think will have a direct impact.
So we're looking through doing this at improving, broadly improving behaviour and impacting
anti -social behaviour, but much more directly.
There are some real protections around children and removing mobile phones from the classroom
to reduce bullying and victimisation.
Thank you.
And I presume this will be reviewed again in 12 months to see, it will be very hard
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:34:58
to evaluate its effectiveness, but it will be reviewed in 12 months' time before you
possibly expand it or? So at the moment this was just one -off funding
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:35:08
and it fits in with the other work we do around the Community Fund. We've just opened up
the Community Fund to applications and many councillors here will have had things in their
wards that have been raised. I've actually just sent a message to Councillor Epps about
potentially accessing some additional funding through the Community Fund. So there are lots
of things that we do, when there are small levels of funding we don't go through a
formal evaluation because the sums are so small.
This is quite significant.
So we won't be doing a formal evaluation because we're not carrying it on directly
because it would want our funding, but we will be looking at what the impacts are, having
some qualitative discussions with schools' offices in those areas where they've done
it to see what the benefits are.
In theory, if we had the money, we could expand it to more schools in a future year.
If we do that, then we obviously want to know it's been successful.
But at the moment, we don't have a budget line set aside for that.
So that's the intention is always going to be one year.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:36:06
Another item that's been raised is the religious hate crime risen more than a third in Thames
Valley, according to the Oxford Mail.
Yes, indeed.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:36:20
And we see two issues around this always, and it tends to sadly follow international
events where we see both an increase in offending and also an increased sensitivity, which leads
to an increase in reporting.
I think both of those are true.
They, I think the Oxford Mail report, I can't immediately find it in the papers, looks at
incidents rather than just crime, where we've seen a significant rise, but I just, they
do touch on some crime offences as well.
So yeah, sadly, we have seen this.
It comes from a variety of sources and a variety of places.
TVP, as ever, continues to work.
We've touched on already some of the work,
the really good work that's been done
with specific community groups in Oxford,
whether it's looking at particular locations.
So we've seen incidents in Oxford around mosques
and synagogues where buildings have been targeted
as well as individuals.
And then, of course, you can get an increase in reporting where individuals may well feel
vulnerable or threatened.
And within that, you do get a mix of increased incidents and perhaps increased sensitivity
to incidents as well.
Thank you.
Councillor Hargit.
Thank you.
Cllr Lubna Arshad - Oxford City Council - 1:37:44
Yeah, we saw much more of that, actually, when Tommy Robinson was invited to the Oxford
debate.
And although our local commander and everyone – all the partnership work that we did together
was really positive.
Again, this goes back to, you know,
what Councillor Newton was saying that, you know,
why should the public be charged for events like that.
But international and local events do have a major effect
on local communities, especially at Oxford, you know.
We're all very united.
But when it comes to things like this,
obviously people of different communities
can feel really unsafe.
And that having been more so on the Jewish community
as well as the Muslim communities.
So I thank you for the intervention that
Thames Valley Police did at that time,
but I think going back to the original question,
you know, is there anything more that you can help us do?
That's why I was asking about the funding earlier
in the committee, although we welcome that,
it's across the board.
So I think what we will do is continue to do
the good work that's going on.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:38:50
I know that might not be very exciting,
I think we're launching some new programme.
But actually, I think Thames Valley Police deals with these incidents when they do happen
pretty well, making sure that certainly in areas like Oxford, there's lots of other areas
of Thames Valley, Slough and Milton Keynes, which are perhaps a bit more diverse than
our broader population, that actually policing continues to be seen to act without fear and
favour and to make sure that all of those communities and people from the broader population
who might not consider themselves to be part of a specific community, feel protected and
we make sure those provisions are there.
So I think actually it's a case of making sure we double down on the stuff we're doing
already.
Thank you.
A question?
It's not a question actually, it was just to follow on from that.
Cllr Georgina Heritage - South Oxfordshire District Council - 1:39:38
I'd just like to mention that I know the councils that I sit on, OCC and SODC, and I'm sure
there are other councils in the Thames Valley who are working on community cohesion strategies
at the moment and I just wanted to comment for the record that we would welcome TVP's
interest and support of those programmes. Thank you.
Thank you. If there's no more questions in respect to that item, one that Councillor
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:40:07
Epps has got in relation to yourself supporting the launch of the safety camera motorcycle
teams.
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:40:19
Sorry, I was caught out because we spoke a little bit yesterday and I was grateful to
Mr. Barber for coming and joining me in Hayford Park where we had an interesting amalgam of
traffic issues.
One of the challenges we heard yesterday direct from the parish council chair was about speeding
in a community where there are disruptions to the road network, a lot of frustration
among drivers which we witnessed and people driving completely inappropriately and dangerously
at speeds of up to 55 miles an hour on residential streets where 20 miles an hour is designed
in with obvious effects.
There seems that the motorcycle team initiative is welcome.
I think the question again goes down to how where there are known concerns and issues
on roads that are busy and where there are clear risk factors, how it's possible for
local authorities to work effectively to help get tasking directed to those sort of areas
where there are particular concerns.
Yes, thank you.
And we had some conversations yesterday.
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:41:38
It's a conversation I hope we can continue next week, actually, because we've got a meeting
of the road safety forum, which is exactly the sort of thing that we want to do.
You've touched on in the question the motorcycle enforcement team, which I think will be an
important part of being more flexible.
They've only been in place for a couple of months, they've already dealt with I
think approaching a thousand offences. What I'm really keen that we do and it's
why we're looking through the forum at a really effective
dashboard of data is looking at what deployments are needed by the police,
where and ideally when. So in the short term and we had this conversation with
the parish council but it's worth saying publicly because there will be others so
those parish council who have speed indicator devices, and we provided some of those through
the community fund, they in themselves can act as a deterrent and they're very useful,
but actually some record information and some don't.
So if you've got something that can demonstrate persistently high speeds on a particular road,
that clearly justifies police action more clearly in terms of driving and operational
demand.
Sometimes, and I can think of examples, it can disprove the need for urgent police action.
So if, for example, in a 20 mile an hour zone, the average speed of vehicles has come down
from sort of 36 miles an hour to 23 miles an hour, and there are some outliers, there
were two people who drove through at 50, arguably a police department is not going to catch
two individuals who happened to go through at one point.
You need to identify those individuals and go after them rather than having a persistent
problem.
So, I think gathering that data is really important.
I think there is something that parishes and others can do.
I do think we can also, through the dashboard, try to identify where the other things are.
And we talked yesterday about things like dangerous overtaking as well as speeding.
So we've got give the police the broadest range of data.
Yeah.
And that's where the other part of this, I think, comes in.
Cllr Gareth Epps - Oxfordshire County Council - 1:43:40
and I mean my frustration on numbers of tickets in 20 zones is on the record, but the same
thing applies to 30 zones and I've certainly got areas including my division where enforcement
of speeding in those areas is needed and where there is a demonstrable accident record. And
the link there I think is about being able to get some of the local police teams, particularly
PCSOs to link into community speed watch, possibly help reactivate them where there's
been a little bit of a sort of feeling that they've been left on their own and groups
have been left to fall into abeyance, which I think is very much the case in Hayford Park.
But I think if we're able, if there's a better way of being able to connect the two, that
would help volunteers in terms of morale
and get a better feeling than what a lot of them
talked to me about is a bit of a sort of
computer says no feeling.
I think if there's some way we can generate
a conversation to change that,
that would be particularly helpful
as well as provide a visible presence
that would really tackle the sort of issues
that you've got in somewhere like Hayford Park
where there is road rage behaviour, isn't it?
So one of the areas, again, we touched on this yesterday, but for the benefit of the
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:45:00
committee is looking at PCSOs being trained and authorised to do some of that speed enforcement,
which they haven't been previously.
There will be a three -month trial starting hopefully next month that will look at a number
of trained PCSOs in Oxfordshire and East Berkshire who will start doing that.
They will be able to then hopefully support Community Speedwatch where they exist, because
I think that's really important to make sure we've got buy -in
continuing from the public,
but also to obviously act independently
and to be a bit more proactive
as you would expect road policing officers to do.
So you might, as well as just being able to have a speed gun
and issue tickets, the ability to have more than one
PCSO deployed so that someone can have a speed camera
and someone can actually stop a vehicle,
give some verbal advice as well as potentially
issuing tickets.
and I think that allows for much more flexibility.
The thing I touched on, and I touched on it
because I think we all too easily miss it,
is where you might identify things
that are not speed offences.
So speed offences are really easy, in theory,
to detect because there's something measurable,
but actually having two PCSOs who are able
and authorised to stop vehicles will also help
when someone's seen using a mobile phone,
dangerously overtaking, driving antisocially, those other areas beyond pure speed.
So all of that will be recorded in our Neighbourhood Policing Activity app
so we can properly quantify it, say it'll be a three month trial,
and we'll need to then have a look at how successful otherwise that's been
to see if it gets rolled out across the force, so who is in interest.
Some of these issues can be seasonal in terms of how effective you can be
with people on the roadside and darker nights etc.
But I think the trial period should be quite effective and I would like to think in the
new year we can look at expanding it further.
Thank you.
Is there any other questions before we move on to the work programme?
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:46:58
No?

13 Work Programme

Then I'll look forward to the work programme for November.
Obviously on there is the neighbourhood policing future and structure.
The recruitment and retention follow -up report, which I will be very interested to read, looking
at the amount that officers, again, we are losing a middle -term and long -term service
record.
Approach to securing developer contributions, CIL and Section 10C for policing infrastructure.
Qualities and diversity, and of course what's previously been raised, appeal inspection
of Thames Valley Police and the Partnership Fund Community Safety Fund, CCTV support contributions
to the multiagency safeguarding.
Is there anything else anybody would like to raise?
Yes.
Sorry, not for the work programme.
Cllr Stephen Newton - Wokingham Council - 1:47:58
I just wanted to mention the task and finish group we've got for cyber crime.
We're keen to get that up and running fairly quickly.
I note that we're having some trouble finding out who's going to be the engagement person
from Thames Valley Police.
But parking that, I think it would be helpful if the people are on the panel, if I've got
some questions we want to put to the police around this and to Matthew.
So if I can have the names of who's on the panel now, who's come forward for that, I'll
circulate the initial draught list of questions and we can probably do that without having
a formal session and then we can actually submit that and then that might help Matthew
and also guide the police in terms of who's best to be the representative when we do actually
come together if that's okay.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:48:46
Cllr Stephanie Steevenson - West Berkshire Council - 1:48:57
Sorry Matthew can I just ask you, Members asked me did he miss the Rural Crime Convention
this year. He attended last May in 25. Has there been one? Is there going to be one or
Matthew Barber - PCC - 1:49:08
not? It was a rural crime prevention. So there are several. So we turn from, I can
double cheque offline, but I think we did a, we turned our neighbourhood conference into
rural crime previously. So that might be the one. The neighbourhood conference will continue,
but the theme of that changes each year. However, we do do a number of rural crime events. So
smaller ones around Thames Valley that are semi -regular.
I mean, there's usually something happening every quarter somewhere.
So, depending on the geography and what exactly it is they're interested in, there might be
a similar event they could attend.
And how can we find out, please?
If you want to drop me a line, I'll put them in touch with the Royal Crime Team and see
if there's anything going in their local area.
And if not, it might be possible they can help us host something.
Thank you.
Chair - Cllr Peter Gammond - Co-Opted Independent - 1:49:55
So I'll formally close this part of the meeting at 12 .40.
Exclusion of press and public chair to read out.
To resolve that under section 100 subsection A4 of the local government act 1972, the public
be excluded from the meeting on the grounds that it involves the likely disclosure of
exempt information as designed in the paragraph indicated in part 1 of schedule 12A of the
act.
OK.
We are welcome to have...