Interactive webcast player

Finance & Resources Select Committee
Thursday, 8th October 2026 at 2:00pm

 
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Jackson Ng
  2. Cllr Jackson Ng
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Elizabeth Wheaton - Principal Scrutiny Officer
  2. Cllr Jackson Ng
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Robert Carington
  2. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  3. Cllr Jackson Ng
  4. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  5. Cllr Jackson Ng
  6. Cllr Robert Carington
  7. Cllr Jackson Ng
  8. Cllr Robert Carington
  9. Cllr Nidhi Mehta
  10. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  11. Cllr Nidhi Mehta
  12. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  13. Cllr Robert Carington
  14. Cllr Jackson Ng
  15. Cllr Andy Huxley
  16. Cllr Jackson Ng
  17. Cllr Robert Carington
  18. Cllr Martin Tett
  19. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  20. Cllr Martin Tett
  21. Cllr Jackson Ng
  22. Cllr Martin Tett
  23. Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD
  24. Cllr Martin Tett
  25. Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD
  26. Cllr Martin Tett
  27. Cllr Jackson Ng
  28. Cllr Martin Tett
  29. Cllr Jackson Ng
  30. Cllr Martin Tett
  31. Cllr Robert Carington
  32. Cllr Jackson Ng
  33. Cllr Martin Tett
  34. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  35. Cllr Robert Carington
  36. Cllr Martin Tett
  37. Cllr Robert Carington
  38. Cllr Martin Tett
  39. Cllr Jackson Ng
  40. Cllr Maru Mormina
  41. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  42. Cllr Maru Mormina
  43. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  44. Cllr Jackson Ng
  45. Cllr Martin Tett
  46. Cllr Jackson Ng
  47. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  48. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  49. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  50. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  51. Cllr Jackson Ng
  52. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  53. Cllr Jackson Ng
  54. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  55. Cllr Robert Carington
  56. Cllr Jackson Ng
  57. Cllr Chris Poll
  58. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  59. Cllr Chris Poll
  60. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  61. Cllr Jackson Ng
  62. Cllr Christine Adali
  63. Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD
  64. Cllr Christine Adali
  65. Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD
  66. Cllr Robert Carington
  67. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  68. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  69. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  70. Cllr Jackson Ng
  71. Cllr Dev Dhillon
  72. Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD
  73. Cllr Jackson Ng
  74. Cllr Maru Mormina
  75. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  76. Cllr Maru Mormina
  77. Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD
  78. Cllr Maru Mormina
  79. Cllr Jackson Ng
  80. Cllr Martin Tett
  81. Cllr Jackson Ng
  82. Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources
  83. Cllr Martin Tett
  84. Cllr Jackson Ng
Share this agenda point
  1. Cllr Robert Carington
  2. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  3. Cllr Jackson Ng
  4. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  5. Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets
  6. Cllr Larisa Townsend
  7. Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets
  8. Cllr Robert Carington
  9. Cllr Jackson Ng
  10. Cllr Martin Tett
  11. Cllr Jackson Ng
  12. Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets
  13. Cllr Martin Tett
  14. Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets
  15. Cllr Martin Tett
  16. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  17. Cllr Robert Carington
  18. Cllr Jackson Ng
  19. Cllr Christine Adali
  20. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  21. Cllr Christine Adali
  22. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  23. Cllr Jackson Ng
  24. Cllr Chris Poll
  25. Cllr Robert Carington
  26. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  27. Cllr Jackson Ng
  28. Cllr Anna Crabtree
  29. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  30. Cllr Jackson Ng
  31. Cllr Robert Carington
  32. Cllr Jackson Ng
  33. Cllr Robert Carington
  34. Cllr Jackson Ng
  35. Cllr Chris Poll
  36. Cllr Jackson Ng
  37. Cllr Maru Mormina
  38. Cllr Jackson Ng
  39. Cllr Maru Mormina
  40. Cllr Robert Carington
  41. Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets
  42. Cllr Jackson Ng
  43. Cllr Mohammed Ayub
  44. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  45. Cllr Jackson Ng
  46. Cllr Nidhi Mehta
  47. Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets
  48. Cllr Jackson Ng
  49. Cllr Andy Huxley
  50. Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities
  51. Cllr Jackson Ng
  52. Cllr Robert Carington
  53. Cllr Jackson Ng
  54. Cllr Martin Tett
  55. Cllr Jackson Ng
Share this agenda point
  1. Elizabeth Wheaton - Principal Scrutiny Officer
  2. Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer
  3. Cllr Martin Tett
  4. Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer
  5. Cllr Martin Tett
  6. Cllr Jackson Ng
  7. Cllr Chris Poll
  8. Cllr Jackson Ng
  9. Cllr Robert Carington
  10. Cllr Jackson Ng
  11. Cllr Chris Poll
  12. Cllr Jackson Ng
  13. Cllr Christine Adali
  14. Cllr Jackson Ng
Share this agenda point
  1. Webcast Finished

Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:00
Right, good afternoon, and welcome to the Finance and Resources Select Committee.
I'm Councillor Leung, Chairman of the Committee.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:11
This meeting is being webcast and recorded, so please wait to be called, and please use
your microphone and turn all phones off.
First item in the agenda, apologies for absence or changes in membership.
Chairman, we have no apologies for absence or changes this time.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.

1 Apologies for absence / Changes in membership

2 Declarations of Interest

Elizabeth Wheaton - Principal Scrutiny Officer - 0:00:34
Item number two, decorations of interest.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:00:36
I'll kick off and say that I'm a member of Beckonsfield Town Council, but don't feel
obliged to declare your membership of your parish council if it's on your register already.
Moving on.
Minutes of the previous meetings.

3 Minutes

I've had a read through it, and I trust colleagues have had as well.
I know that Councillor Caputri has picked up on Little Marlow being a parish council
as opposed to a town council.
I've picked up a couple of typing errors on page 5, 6 and 7, but nothing that goes to
the material of the discussion.
Do any other colleagues have any comments?
Otherwise, are you happy for me to sign it?
subject to? Sorry there was also just the mention of High Wycombe Town Council
which obviously doesn't exist so that needs to be changed as well. Right, so okay.
So you're happy for me to sign it with the amendments? I'll go ahead and do that.

4 Public Questions

Item number four. I gather no public questions. That's disappointing.

5 HR People Plan Update

Okay well this brings us straight into item number five which is the HR people
plan update, which Sarah is next door and she sends her late apologies, but she'll be
joining us imminently.
But Councillor Carrington has very kindly offered to go straight into it.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:02:06
I may regret my enthusiasm, but as a politician, I think I can sort of talk long enough for
Sarah to come back in, depending how long her presentation goes on for.
So, as a reminder, because I think we have some new faces on the committee from when
we discussed this last year.
So, this is an annual paper, which, being the people plan, sets out the council's strategic
workforce priorities and helps support delivery of the corporate plan.
Obviously, that being new, because that did not exist in its current form this time last
year.
So, the main change to the people plan is it's been updated to reflect the new corporate
priorities for 27 to 31 and provide the corporate golden thread on matters relating to people,
skills, employment, and culture across the council and the wider county as a whole.
So, measures of success and key performance indicators are set out in the people plan,
and these align to wider workforce measures for the council's budget board and cabinet
KPIs.
On the director and service level, the people plan links to those particular plans with
reference to local workforce people priorities and actions.
And as you'll be aware, these priorities and challenges may vary from one service to another,
so we expect services to tailor their plans and actions accordingly.
So in this document as a whole, there are five pillars, but there is three priorities
which sort of overarch and the pillars feed into the relevant priorities.
So priority one is improving productivity and performance, and this really focuses on
a series of interventions which are to improve efficiency and modernise delivery and add
greater value across the council, which were implemented in the year just gone.
These just a couple, just picking out some of them at random, so to speak, service reviews
being a key enabler for this, which makes certain we have the right structure, leadership
arrangements, and skill and capacity in the right places.
There have been 37 reviews being completed during the last 12 months, and approximately
Probably 22 further reviews anticipated during the next year.
One of the teams which has had a review is the HR service itself.
The main one, well, it's not main, but a very important one and you'll be hearing a lot
of this year is the ERP.
I know we discussed this in budget scrutiny and a number of times in this forum.
This is a major, major piece of work ongoing and which we will be seeing sort of ramping
up across the year, which is going to enable us to transition from a largely transactional
and system -dependent HR service to a more strategic insight -led and value -added HR operating
I mean, it's obviously not just on the HR aspect.
It's across the council, but considering I'm talking to the HR people plan, I'm going to
focus on the HR point of it today.
Health and attendance is another one I've spoken on a lot, particularly this is one
I wouldn't say good news storey, but it's one we have seen positive trends.
We are below the national average when it comes to
private companies.
They're on about 9 .1 days per year.
We've held a rolling average of less than eight days.
We have been seeing it tick up.
Caveat there.
I mean, it does go into a lot of detail,
the paper on the reasons.
I mean, the main reason being suspected for that is the hot
weather and the impact that has had on the workforce.
but we are still, as I said, below our KPI target of 8 .5.
And I think one stat just important to highlight why this
is so important is that a rolling average of 8 .23 days
per FTE equates to a cost of 378 ,000 pounds over the year,
which is 2 .44 percent of the workforce cost.
So this is why this is so important to get this right.
And we have a number of work streams being focused on this,
some revised policies and processes and manager training
to help us keep on track on this.
Moving on to the second priority,
this is the wider place -based skill in employment,
which can be pillar two.
And so this recognises the workforce is shaped
not only by internal initiatives, but by the strength of local labour markets and the skills
system.
And so, through a number of skills and employment programmes, this is how we are aiming to further
develop the skills, talent, and workforce capacity to meet our own – well, to meet
our future recruitment and workforce demands, but also to contribute to the wider Buckinghamshire
economy and workforce.
So a couple of the key things just to highlight is obviously adult learning, the horizons
programme, skills boot camps, and our work experience programmes, all which can be found in more detail
on pages 16 to 17 of a covering report.
And then the final priority is the workplace culture for modern government, which is Pillars
1, 3, and 5, it incorporates.
So, really, the main thing here to highlight is the corporate peer challenge review and
how that recognised that the Council has got strong cultural foundations, but also did
highlight opportunities to strengthen consistency, visibility and staff experience across the
organisation.
So, there is a lot of work going on to build upon that.
Part of the key bit of that, and I know there's one which has been discussed here, is the
engagement and together survey.
So, the most recent all -staff survey was completed in July last year, and there are plans underway.
We are doing a redesigned approach to how we do employee engagement from spring, and
there will be a number of new sort of updates on how we do that engagement and further surveys
so we can hear more effectively and sort of tailor more effectively.
I think the only other thing I really just want to sort of end with is the next steps
is that we aim for the service to maintain the direction with clear focus on the priorities,
but also highlighting the flexibility and agility to scan on the horizon and to respond
to new unexpected circumstances which are always arising.
And hopefully, hopefully some of those will come up.
I mean the obvious one is AI.
I wouldn't say it's a new one,
but it is one which is constantly being worked on.
But there's examples like that.
So I will now hand over to Sarah or Vicky
who wants to expand on what I've said.
Nothing, yep.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:09:51
Thank you, Councillor Carrington.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:09:55
Welcome, Councillor Mehta and Sarah.
Thank you.
I'll kick off, if I may.
Now, I can't, as my vice chairman pointed out,
this room's got great air conditioning,
and he's suffering from a bit of a cold.
But I've picked up from reading report
and from your oral report
that the increase in workforce sickness
is the result of the heatwave in the summer.
I've got two areas of concern.
One is that if I look at page 23, which shows the graph of sickness, I can see in ACE, which
I understand is the mostly office -based staff, there's a huge increase from 4 .77 to 5 .79.
Well, given that most of the jobs are office -based with air conditioning, why is there such an
increase?
But I'm generally also concerned that £378 ,000 per month is roughly about £4 .5 million that
the Council seems to be wasting or not saving in relation to staffing costs.
So those are my sort of two areas of concern.
And I think that's a good question.
Thank you for the question.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:11:21
So in terms of sickness, so you'll know from the fact that it's a cabinet KPI that we report
through to you on a quarterly basis that we had been showing a consistent downward trend.
And that has come about through a lot of manager work and also innovation within HR.
So we put in place a new process within our internal CRM system that then walks managers
through each of the steps of when they're opening an absence and the conversations that
they need to have.
So I think that when we look back, the decline in sickness absence was partly about a real
focus on it as something that is a key factor for us because the less sickness absence we
have, the more capacity we have that goes back into the business, number one.
And then number two, that process I think has really helped.
We always were aware that it was likely that this was going to be a bit of a bumpy road,
And I think that's what we're starting to see.
So the narrative over the summer of the extreme heat has undoubtedly played in.
We haven't got much in terms of benchmarking information that's actually being published
at the moment.
The – I can't say definitively what was behind the ACE increase.
Typically, when you see things like that occurring, and ACE is a relatively small area, it may
well be, and I'm speculating here, critical illness, so things like cancer and so on.
And that then is, it gets into the numbers, and it's obviously, it's a long -term piece
of management to help people through their treatment and so on.
But we'll have to come back to you definitively to be able to tell you that.
I think the point that I would make is we are absolutely not complacent on this.
This is something we talk about CMT all the time.
And in fact, what we're going to do next is we did the first stage of the sickness absence
process.
We put it onto a system known as ServiceNow, which, as I say, walks managers through and
and the steps that they need to take.
We're going to take that onto the next phase.
So that took you to stage one.
We're going to do some development work
that takes them onto stage two of a sickness absence process.
Again, because we think that there are real benefits
for the manager to be walked through that process.
The majority of sickness absence will be dealt with
in that stage one process.
It will be cold sniffles and so on.
And people will be off for a short amount of time
and then we'll be back.
Stage two is essentially when you've gone beyond
28 days of absence.
So there's going to be something that's more serious
underlying that.
Because I noticed that we were doing better last year,
but to be blunt, would the fact that the England football
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:14:35
team was doing better this summer have any impact to it?
Because it wasn't mentioned in the report,
but I'm guessing that might be a reason, perhaps?
Sorry, just to highlight when you say you thought we were doing better last year.
No, no, no.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:14:48
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:14:53
It's 9 .4 days per employee over the last 12 months compared to our 8 .7 at this – that's
the national average.
So were we worse off last year?
So last year the average was 8 .94.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:15:05
So we've actually gone – slightly done better.
Okay, I've got to stay corrected.
I mean who knows if England made it to the final one maybe the figure may have changed
but no that there has actually been a decrease.
Okay that's good to know thank you.
Councillor Mehta.
Thank you so basically I was reading 3 .16 the point where it says the proposed actions
Cllr Nidhi Mehta - 0:15:31
are intended to stabilise absence levels and so much so forth.
So my question is, I have two questions.
How can you assure that these improvements are embedded
rather than temporary?
And my second question is, at what point would you consider
the current approach to health and attendance management
not to be working?
So,
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:16:05
So, with sickness absence you have to be on it consistently.
So it is an absolute priority.
It's something that we look at at CMT every month as part of a dashboard.
I also attend deep dives in adults and in communities, the areas with the highest levels
of sickness absence.
We've had persistent level of sickness absence within resources, so my directorates are trying
to really get under the skin of what's happening there, why aren't we able to get it down further.
We are in the individual cases to understand somebody's sickness absence journey with us.
Sometimes it is compassionate management is one way of describing what's happened, where
managers have not started the process at the right point and it's got delayed.
Actually that doesn't help anybody.
What we need to do is we need to have a consistent process where everybody is treated equally
and fairly because we can put in reasonable adjustments in place.
For example, if you have a critical illness and we can see that the long -term prognosis
So you might be a longstanding member of staff.
Cancer diagnosis, actually it's sensible to put in place
maybe a month's reasonable adjustment
to allow them to go through all of the clinical,
those initial clinical pathways
to understand what their treatment is and so on.
So when we went through those individual cases,
what we saw, as I say,
was sometimes compassionate management.
Sometimes actually it was that the sickness absence
is reasons changed as well, so they start off
as one reason and then become another reason.
Sometimes people don't like being managed
in their sickness absence, but this is,
you come to work to do the job,
and if you're not there, it impacts the team.
So we've gone through this really carefully.
And what we discovered, certainly within communities,
and particularly down at the depot,
was that our policy was at the latter stages
of when you were getting close to dismissal.
It was building in too many appeals in a way that
was not ACAS compliant.
So it allowed us to take a review of that
and actually strip down that policy
and make it simpler and easier for everybody to understand.
So it then meant that dismissals were then happening
at the right point after we'd gone through
all of the processes.
Every sickness absence is unique
because we are individually unique.
So when we do these deep dives,
we learn something every time.
So we're doing these probably once every six weeks or so.
What about my second question?
Sorry, which one was it?
The second question was when do you think this is not working?
How do we know if it's not working?
Cllr Nidhi Mehta - 0:19:21
Well, through the deep dives.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:19:23
So that tells us where we've got problems and things that we need to address.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:19:31
I mean, it goes into sort of my final comments, which was that obviously we have the set priorities
here of the plan, but the important thing is being flexible and being able to adapt
to the situation and what Sarah has just highlighted, these constant deep dives, these constant
conversations allow us to keep on track on it, see what is going on, see if changes are
required.
So the answer to your question on how do we know it has failed is, well, the conversations
are always happening, so you could say every time there's the conversation, you're sorting
out and constantly approving.
So it is one we cannot, obviously cannot afford to fail on because of the impact of it, and
particularly this is not just the impact on the council, it's the impact on the individual.
The long term, it's impacting their livelihoods, it's impacting financial, mental, all of that.
And so we do not want to fail these individuals.
This is very much to help them, get them back to where they need to be, and so everyone's
a winner, really.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:20:36
Thank you. Councillor Huddley. Thank you Chairman. I'd like to thank you for stealing my thunder
Cllr Andy Huxley - 0:20:42
in that I too was slightly concerned as to whether the World Cup had any impact on absenteeism
as it did go on for quite a long time. Thank you. That's a good thing though. Hopefully next time
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:20:59
much longer. To adapt to this in the next four years or in two years for the Euros we
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:21:08
can add a tick box where they can say if it was related to the World Cup. I think we all
have a suspicion probably no one will tick that box.
Councillor Martin Tett. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Just to say this is a wonderful
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:21:29
report, it's so all -encompassing. I have a lot of questions on a lot of errors, which
I won't all raise now. I wouldn't mind dipping back in as we go through this.
But just to stick on the theme of the absences, maybe just for the benefit of people watching,
what is the difference between a sickness absence and an absence? I mean, clearly there's
compassionate leave. I understand that entirely, you know, fathers died or parents died or
whatever, but what else explains the difference between why someone should be at work and
when they're not? I have another couple of questions stemming from that.
So can I just clarify, so you're asking just what are the different types of absence reasons
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:22:10
that people might not be at work for? The report comments about absence and it
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:22:16
separately comments about sickness absence. I just think it would be useful for everyone
to understand exactly what is the difference between the two.
Clearly there is compassionately, if we completely get that, what other categories would normally
fall into other absences?
So for example, in the workplace it might be because someone's on SSP, that there might
be sickness absence or self -cert.
But that's covered, there is a heading called sickness.
Yep, so I'm just trying to be really clear and the benefit people watching in particular
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:22:52
What is in I'm assuming sickness absence is sickness absence, you know, I'm sick. I'm off work
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:22:56
Yeah, if there's absence other than sickness and it's not compassionate
What else is it? So there'll be things like maternity leave paternity leave. Oh, that's leave is it?
That's that's part of the absence in here. So maternity leave is part of the absence recorded in here. Is that correct?
I wouldn't have thought so.
No, not in the figures, sorry.
So what else do you want to say?
Hang on, let me just hear the officers.
It's just sickness absence that we've covered in the report.
Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD - 0:23:27
Oh, so where it says absence and then separately sickness absence, they are actually synonymous.
They're both the same thing.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:23:33
They are, yes, that's correct.
So compassionate leave is where?
It's not in this report.
It's a separate category entirely.
Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD - 0:23:41
So if we wanted to understand the totality of absences, where would we look?
I would need to take that away, Councillor, and come back to the committee.
Right. Okay. That's very helpful.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:23:51
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:23:57
I'll just jump in here. I think it's important that a committee understands, not just in relation to sickness absence or compassion absence or paternity leave, maternity leave.
We need to know, you know, our workforce, because we're Councillor -based taxpayers, you know, who's off work, for what reasons, how much is it costing us?
because if what you're saying is right,
that 378 ,000 per month figure is not accurate.
It's just, I'm really glad,
and you've articulated vastly better than I did,
my conundrum about this.
This is sickness absence, it is not all absences,
and we have no visibility as a committee,
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:24:27
nor it appears have seen the management
of the totality of absences incurred by the council.
Yep, stop me if I'm wrong on that.
I'm Councillors if officers are not unable to answer this would you come back to us and
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:24:42
could they report back and maybe update the committee clarification on this council attack
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:24:51
to journey did you say you had a few questions but I'm only gonna go I'm just gonna get on
while we're on this point I just want to make one very important question I have another
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:24:56
question on the absence I think we say it's correct and the officers are going to look
But Mr Chairman, when you mentioned the 378 figure is inaccurate, that clearly does say
that's for sickness absence.
So that figure is accurate.
For sickness absence.
But I think the statement is there may be additional costs on that regarding the overall
point.
I just wanted to make sure we're very clear on that point.
So 378 ,000 per month is in relation to sickness absence, but all the other absences, whatever
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:25:24
they might be, this committee would be grateful for a report on that.
And there may be very, very good reasons.
Yes, of course.
Please don't read anything into what I'm saying.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:25:35
And can I just cheque that the CIPD metric that's used for comparison is also just sickness
and doesn't include other categories?
Okay, so we're comparing like blank.
So my other question was around community.
I was interested in the chart, looking at the differentials between the various directorates,
and they vary from some quite low numbers.
I'm looking at the latest numbers, 4 .97, 5 .79, and so on.
And then there are some quite high ones, 10 .56.
I actually understand that there are very stressful jobs in some of these departments.
I absolutely get that.
And that may account for an almost twofold rate of sickness absence.
I'm puzzled about communities, though.
And maybe it would just help the members of the committee and the public watching to understand
And why I completely understand adults' social care, I completely understand children's social
care, maybe having very stressful roles.
Communities, why is community sickness such a high level and so much higher than children's
social care?
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:26:51
So the reason, primary reason, and when we do the deep dives into the numbers, is it's
the work that's undertaken at the depot.
So it's physically demanding work,
walking probably 10 miles a day behind a refuse truck.
So what we find is that we have people who,
more prevalence of, say for example, hips and knees,
and the ability for them to then be able to work
is very limited in the roles.
We do try and look at whether there are redeployment opportunities whilst they're waiting for surgery
for replacement.
So that's one thing.
Another thing that we are looking at trying to be a bit more creative is to think about
actually if you've been a refuse collector for the majority of your working career, you
know, your body will be quite worn out.
Can we find a way that actually maybe, for example, takes you onto driving lawn mowers?
So is there a way that we can help you onto a slightly different career path and retrain
you?
So it's the higher levels are being driven primarily by those very physical roles.
And also to add on to that, physicality, and it is alluded, well it's not alluded to, it
is addressed in the report that communities, as it is, the majority of the work is outside
so you're exposed to the elements.
So the number of paragraphs on the hot weather,
so the communities teams were the ones
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:28:21
who were most exposed to that hot level,
to the hot weather, so that is part of the impact
on that front set, so they are exposed to the elements.
Although in fairness, I mean I look back over the history,
I mean the hot weather we had this year,
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:28:35
I completely understand, but this is a consistent pattern,
and in fact has been significantly higher
in previous years when we've had less hot weather.
I'll leave it at that, I've got lots more questions
which I'd love to come back on about other aspects of this.
Bear in mind we did have a heatwave last August as well.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:28:51
I understand, I'm just looking at the absence rates right the way through the entire year.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:28:55
Thank you, Councillor Ted.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:28:58
We'll come back to you if there's enough time, but we've got quite a number of councillors.
Councillor Marima?
Thank you.
Yes, thank you.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:29:07
I also have a couple of questions, so I'm going to ask the first question and then if
There's a second round.
I'll come back.
I'd like to ask about the apprenticeship levy.
I thought we'd move on.
Okay.
Oh, did you want to?
No, I want to talk about the same area.
Right, okay.
Okay, well,
pay
6 .18
And I've lost it, yes.
Suggest that we have an, uh, almost half of the levy unused.
It's not clear to me whether that is how much of that is, uh, let me rephrase.
What I want to know is what proportion of the Council's apprenticeship levy funds have
expired unused in the last period.
And by the last period, I'm not entirely sure if I have to use a 24 -month figure or the
12 -month figure, because in 6 .20, you suggest that the government has changed the 20 -month
cutoff or the 20 -month deadline to the 12 months.
So whichever of the two apply, I'd like to know how ñ what proportion of the levy has
remained unused and therefore expired.
Should we start with that question?
Well, yes.
And apart from the figures, if there are unused funds, I'd like to know what actions are in
place to maximise the return on the levy and prevent funds expiring.
Okay.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:31:06
So, I think this is an issue that's facing all organisations in terms of spending the
levy fund.
Yes, I am the one.
Because the levy only pays for the training, it doesn't pay for the salary.
So the person will be off the job for 20 % of the time, so a day a week.
And that salary – sorry, the training is funded out of the apprenticeship levy, but
not the salary.
So employers are finding this really difficult to manage.
This is – so this – when we started out many years ago, we were getting close to being
able to fund – to spend all of our levy money, but economic circumstances I think
were different.
The job market was different.
where we are now, we don't have the figure, but we can return that to come back to the
committee on that.
We are having to return money back to the Treasury.
We do run a levy transfer scheme.
So this invites businesses within Buckinghamshire to approach us to ask for levy transfer.
That worked really well in the early days when we first set this up, but now micro businesses
are able to apply directly to the government to get apprenticeship levy funds.
So frankly, it's quite difficult at the moment.
And likewise for schools, again, same problem.
The schools obviously work a very condensed working,
well term time working, isn't it?
So for them to release somebody during term time
to go for training is very, very difficult,
particularly if you work in say a village primary school
where your absence will be really missed.
So I think what I'm saying is there are real challenges
with the scheme and hence why the government's
looking at it.
And they're also re -looking at the level, the way that historically employers, and this
is sort of a generalisation, employers use the levy to pay for what's known as level
seven training.
So this is, as an example, banks in London will be paying for MBAs out of their apprenticeship
levy.
So it was a really easy way to consume a lot of the levy money.
Those people will probably have been going on the MBA anyway.
They had factored in the 20 % off time of work, and they could manage it.
That has now been stopped, that level seven, and they're recycling the money to try and
get it down into more junior jobs.
Okay.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:33:59
It seems that we have to do better at utilising the levy.
So, I have a suggestion for the chairman, if I may, because I wonder if, as a committee,
we need to see or have a deep dive into the apprenticeship levy.
And I have some suggestions here.
I'd like to see information about how the levy spending aligns with our medium -term
workforce plan, particularly in hard -to -recruit areas, uh, which apprenticeships are being
prioritised and the evidence supporting the priorities, whether and how we're using the
levy to reduce agency costs or vacancy -driven cost pressures, um, and what measurable improvements
can be directly linked to the levy -funded, uh, training.
And of course, some value for money assessment in relation to other training goals.
So it would be really good, and I don't know if this committee agrees, but I personally
would like to see a little bit more information on how the levy is used in these areas.
We can certainly bring back some more information about how we're using the levy and explain
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:35:18
what the constraints are and where the opportunities might be.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:35:23
Do any other councillors have thoughts on this topic?
I can see Councillor Tett trying to – about his time.
Mine wasn't specifically on the – well, it wasn't on the apprenticeship levy per
se.
Cllr Martin Tett - 0:35:35
I had an issue about adult learning and the horizons bonding.
We'll come back to this.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:35:44
So I think what I've picked up from Sarah is that you're happy to come back with a
But a report on this to come back to the committee so that we have more information to discuss next time round. Thank you
Councillor Townsend
You have a question, I believe
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:36:06
Thank you. Yeah, I wanted to pick up on the fact the report highlights quite significant
organisational change
and a reduction in management layers
What are we doing to – obviously, we're looking at the savings that those reduction
in management layers is achieving.
What are we doing to show that that's not having an effect on service quality?
How are we balancing out the reduction in managers and that savings against – well,
Is there a completed review that shows both the net financial saving and the effect on
service quality, I suppose is my question.
So we're looking at it from both angles.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:36:56
So we have a service review methodology which, when services are looking, when we've got,
For example, MTFP savings,
services will consider what it is that they're doing now,
what the savings are that need to be achieved,
and how we can balance that with trying to deliver better outcomes.
So it might be, for example, that we can take out savings of headcount
and reinvest some of it back into technology.
So, we have an approach to be able to assess that, but I think the key thing that I would
say is that we have this spans and layers approach to try and make sure that we have
a balanced workforce so that managers neither have two broader spans nor two narrower spans.
and trying to reduce, for example, one -on -one relationships as well.
So what you're seeing here in that reduction is the work that's gone through.
You've seen the number of service reviews that HR have been supporting on.
We've taken the opportunity to remove those professional managers, and what will have
happened is some of that money will have been recycled into improvement activities that
will be the targets will be set locally according to the particular service.
So it might be communities or it might be within legal.
All of those services will be looking about what those outcome measures will be.
What I can confirm is that we achieved the savings, the net savings that were required
of us in the MTFP.
So it's not as if we're not taking the head count out and then reinvesting all of the
money and not making the overall savings.
We are delivering the savings as well.
But there isn't a piece of work that's – because that's – that you're sort of all talking
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 0:39:07
about the front end of reallocating where the money goes.
There's no correlating piece of work that demonstrates that this hasn't resulted in
reduced service quality anywhere.
Because it's a big jump, you know, over the four years.
No, sorry, this is just between 25 and 26.
The number of professional manager posts reduces from 172 to 116.
So I'd be surprised if that didn't have some form of impact on service quality.
And I think it's quite important that we're able to show if we're making those sorts of
cuts that it doesn't.
So the service review methodology includes,
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:39:43
so obviously extensive consultation with staff,
the design methodologies, et cetera,
but there's also a review process about six months
afterwards to then look at, has what we expected to occur,
has it actually happened, what lessons are there
to be learned, but that's all managed
by the transformation service.
So is there a piece of work that needs to be done to draw these two ends together to
balance them off?
Yes, this is not just for clarity.
One of the reasons this isn't in this report is this is not within HR, that service improvement
process.
Can I just – sorry.
Can I just follow up and just clarify this.
It's 172, it's gone down to 116.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:40:29
that's about 56 jobs, professional manager and post,
that's been effectively deleted, regraded or moved.
Do you have a breakdown?
You know, are they just made redundant
or they've been moved to a different department
or they've been regraded?
I'm trying to find out after 56,
as Councillor Townsend says,
56 professional manager roles being,
yeah, being sort of cut or deleted.
Who's, you know, who's plugging the gap?
How is this, or is it effectively just moving job titles?
And actually the job function is still very much there, but they're just not called
professional managers anymore.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:41:15
.
So there could be a possibility, say for example, out of the 56 professional manager jobs that
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:42:18
have been saved, you know, 40 of them is rehashed as a manager job, and actually the savings
is 16 jobs.
It could be, but the point is we have to deliver the savings.
This is all predicated around the MTFP savings.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:42:33
But it's also going to be linked to the new, going forward, the new corporate plan and
then all of the performance indicators as well.
I just want to just quickly comment on Councillor Townsend's point regarding the link between
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:42:46
the reduction of the posts and the spans and the layers and the impact of performance,
and not perform some service provision.
So there are measures which are done to model that.
It's obviously within the corporate plan.
The KPI, the CPI is now the corporate performance indicators for every single portfolio and
all the services are where service delivery is measured.
So the delivery of service is reviewed, is measured.
It is there, but additionally, as Sarah has said, with the additional linking the two.
But I mean, for people watching, very much service delivery is monitored on a very regular
basis.
We have the CPIs.
We have the overall triangle.
There are the additional indicators within the relevant portfolios and services on the
delivery of all the relevant services to our residents.
So that is monitored.
this is constantly monitored and if there is any indication there is an impact that
is acted upon.
I obviously that this report could be clear on it, but there are the CPIs which are what
measure on that service delivery.
Thank you.
Moving on.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:44:02
Councillor Powell.
Thank you.
Cllr Chris Poll - 0:44:08
I wanted to go back.
I didn't realise we were racing ahead, but I wanted to go back.
you specifically mentioned in the beginning, Chairman, about how well air -conditioned this
room is, and I rather fear that we as a collective sat in an air -conditioned room aren't quite
aware of what happens out in the communities. As somebody who works outside all year round,
and one of the few who has done a refuse and recycling round in the past, what I wanted
to know is about the warm weather. We must expect that this is more normal, that the
temperatures will rise on average, perhaps not as extreme as this year, but no doubt
the temperatures are rising. Now, I was puzzling that perhaps the mowing, gardening services
and the street works, so roads and highways, are not in here because they are subcontracted.
So they're not in our figures, yeah, a nod.
So the one thing that I would consider is the refuse and recycling crews.
So if they're represented in communities, I'm astonished that it's so low and it's trending
downwards so I think that's a gold star for management in those departments.
My question is if we assume that temperatures are going to rise and conditions get more
difficult for those crews, what do we do for their health and wellbeing in the future?
How do we plan for that?
Do we put air conditioning in every single van?
I suspect that may not help.
But if we consider that a refuse operative could drink three litres of water per day,
how does he then relieve herself?
Many crews will have a welfare unit outside of our organisation, but a welfare unit where
that can be taken care of.
So how are we planning for that in the future?
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:46:31
I don't have the detail about welfare units. I know certainly this summer there was a lot
of work done in terms of the rotors and starting much earlier. So you might remember there
were some comms that went out about asking people to put out their bins the night before.
So we would need to speak to the depot managers and heads of service to find out what their
longer -term plans are to plan for
if this is a sustained reality in terms of heat.
So this summer was
about earlier shifts. They certainly
were making sure that everybody had sunscreen
as well, so sunscreen was fully provided.
They're very, very hot, as you would expect,
wrong word, in terms of PPE.
So I don't know whether, for example, whether different grades of PPE were used, maybe there
was lighter.
But I don't have that details, but I know definitely rosters and I know sunscreen.
In terms of welfare, I'm afraid I don't have that level of detail.
Cllr Chris Poll - 0:47:36
So just will that review happen between resources and those departments that if breathable PPE
and remembering that they have slash -proof trousers, which I imagine can't be ventilated
so much. But it was more the – I mean, when we've had road crews near to our properties
in our village, then residents were outside offering tea and toilet facilities and what
have you. I'm just thinking about that for those crews. And it could well be the social
workers as well. They're out and away from the office all the time. They must be suffering
in exactly the same way.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:48:20
I will certainly pick that up with CMT so we can have a discussion, a fuller discussion
on that.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:48:24
I think I speak for all members of the committee that would be grateful if that takes place
because we are concerned about the welfare of our colleagues and also the efficiency.
Thank you.
Councillor Daley.
Thank you, Chairman.
My question actually, is that working?
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:48:47
I have questions regarding the horizons programme and the work experience, please.
I must say the horizons programme sounds very successful.
So given the amount of applicants, 28 % of the applicants got a position and 55 % of the
people that were taken on were afterwards employed, which is an incredible rate, so
well done on that.
Is there a programme of support for the other 72 % that wanted to get into work and didn't
make the well, couldn't be taken on?
And also, is there a provision for ongoing funding?
Because I think there is a potential funding gap coming up on that.
And then the I'll ask about the work experience after.
Thank you, Councillor.
Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD - 0:49:41
From a support perspective for those that don't obtain ongoing employment with us,
we work very closely with our referral partners.
So as part of the horizon scheme we have a number of different referral partners in to
the scheme such as the DWP.
We, lots of different referral partners, we ensure that they continue to receive the support
and we work closely with those referral partners at the end of the programme.
And we also, bit of a crossover into the skills space, but we also work with Connect to Work
provider Intuitive Thinking, who will then go on to continue to support those individuals
into hopefully gaining employment outside of Buckinghamshire if we're unable to provide
vacancy. In terms of the next phase for hopefully continuing the horizons programme into next
year, we're looking at other opportunities like the jobs guaranteed scheme, which is
part of the government's wider youth guaranteed programme, which will offer eligible younger
people targeted initially for those that are 18 to 21, hopefully growing to those that
18 to 24, we're hoping to utilise that scheme to be able to continue the programme in the
future.
So, Councillors will remember that the horizons programme started as a sort of secondary piece
of work in relation to the government's initial kick start scheme, the jobs guaranteed, the
jobs guarantee scheme is essentially a different version of that kick start scheme.
We hope to be able to utilise funding to be able to continue the horizons programme next
year.
I think my question was not what happens to the ones that weren't kept on that made the
horizons programme, it was more the ones that didn't make the grade to get taken on into
the horizons training programme.
The 70 % that didn't make that, will they be supported in some other form to find employment?
Yes.
Or training?
Yes, that's correct. So in terms of those referral partners, we work really closely
with the referral partners that refer them in, so they're already being supported by
those individuals, so they'll continue to receive the support through the referral.
Cllr Christine Adali - 0:52:00
Thank you very much for that. And the other question was on work experience. Speaking
from experience from my own children, it's really, really, really difficult to find work
experience places.
Given the number that apply, only about 10 % make it onto the programme.
Is there a way of expanding our offering?
It's just so hard for the kids and it just shows them something that they wouldn't have
access to.
Thank you.
Yes, absolutely.
Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD - 0:52:34
As you've highlighted, the level of interest is considerably greater to those that the
current capacity to be able to sort of host the number of placements in relation to the
applications that we get.
What we've started to conduct is a wider review of work experience across the Council to be
able to accommodate more placements, increase those opportunities and offer a more consistent
approach to work experience.
So that review is currently underway and we hope to be able to offer more work experience
placements in the future.
Cllr Robert Carington - 0:53:09
I mean that obviously we've got to bear in mind everyone who's doing this there are a
number of things which need to be need to be ticked regarding capacity,
regarding depending on what particular department they're going with there is
also the safety aspect depending on what they're going to be doing so all sorts
of work needs to be done on the capacity because obviously we want to do this but
we don't want to degrade the overall service but I said there's this wider
review is ongoing.
Also, I would like to do a little bit of a drop.
There is one thing which isn't mentioned, should be mentioned, which is the Councillor
shadowing scheme, which I know a number of people here have taken part in, and I would
highly recommend those who haven't to do so.
This isn't done directly through Bucks Council, but Council offices are used on it, but it
is a support scheme, and I know it will be carrying on, so please, I would recommend
to anyone, please do sign up to the Council Shadowing Scheme.
It is really worth it and it's good to open the eyes to those of what we do.
Can I, sorry, just to add on work experience.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:54:13
So we can't solve this problem all ourselves as the Council, so we need to be engaging
with businesses across Buckinghamshire.
So we, through the skills and employment team, which is within HR, we're very closely linked
in with BBF and the skills hub, and they are obviously very well networked into Buckinghamshire
businesses as well. So
anything that we can do in a more coordinated way to help young people get work experience, I
think has got to be to the good. As
I say, we cannot solve all of this ourselves. Thank
you. Councillor
Crabtree. Thank you.
Yeah, so
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 0:54:54
I had a question I was going to ask about that, just to clarify that the Councillor
Shadowing is not included in the statistics that are shown in this report.
Thank you.
My other point was one of clarification as well.
Just in terms of paragraph 3 .11, the chairman mentioned about the 378 ,000 pounds that absence
is costing the council.
And he mentioned that it was monthly.
So I just wanted to clarify, is that a monthly figure or is it an annual figure?
Because obviously the eight days I'm assuming is an annualised figure on a full -time equivalent,
but it would be helpful just to understand a bit better how much that is as a total throughout
the year.
Thank you.
It is a monthly figure.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:55:46
Thank you.
Vice -chairman.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:55:50
Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you very much for the lovely report.
I've got a question on development skills and through apprenticeship.
On paragraph 3 .29, you mentioned about children homes, and then 29 colleagues are enrolled.
I want to know, is this the figure which is reduction in agency staff that we take?
Cllr Dev Dhillon - 0:56:14
Is this the figure that we grow of our own?
And is it only for children homes or the overall social workers, because we do employ quite
a bit of social workers through agency.
We also had a scheme of grow over on.
And is all of our, you might not know this answer,
is all of our children's homes open?
And if it's not open, are we still recruiting them
for those which they're waiting for off -stead inspection?
I'm not expecting you to know that answer,
actually, if they're done.
And on 3 .3, the new talent apprenticeship,
that's a very loose figure.
Who are these 17 people?
What apprenticeship they have been doing?
And if we can throw just a little bit more into it, do we get any government grant for
apprenticeship?
And if it is there, have I missed somewhere in the report?
Thank you.
Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD - 0:57:09
From an apprenticeship's perspective, so apprenticeships are offered across all services within the
council.
So in answer to your question around are they offered within children's services as a whole,
they absolutely are. In relation to paragraph 3 .29 which you've referenced and the 29 colleagues
that enrolled enrolled into apprenticeships there are in relation to the residential homes
only and we are continuing to recruit in our residential homes so recruitment is ongoing
and the apprenticeships is to support growing our own through the colleagues that we've recruited to
the openings of the residential homes.
So they are colleagues we've recruited,
and then we have supported them to grow and develop
into other roles through utilising the apprenticeship levy,
which is a government funded apprenticeship levy
in answer to your question,
which we utilise to fund apprenticeships
across the council, across schools within Buckinghamshire,
and which businesses can apply for levy transfers
within Buckinghamshire as a place.
Thank you.
Last question, Councillor Maríma.
Yes, thank you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 0:58:29
I appreciate that, Chairman.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:58:32
I just want to pick up on the Council of Shadowing Schemes.
This is Councillor Carrington who brought it up.
Having had experience of the scheme, the scheme is very flexible.
It's not structured at all.
and, uh, the, uh, young people who take part only receive a effectively well -done certificate.
So, uh, if we want to encourage the coun - the counsellor shadowing scheme to count as
work experiences, counsellor Carrington suggests, can we make, uh, can we resource it properly
so that its structure is properly done and the recognition that the young people receive
is a little bit more than just a well -done certificate.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 0:59:29
So I think, so the scheme is run by third party, half a bucks, so this is what we understand,
so we will look into it, but this is not run through either HR or through the offices.
Yes, it's run by the Council.
I don't think it is.
Yes, it is.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 0:59:52
What we want to do as part of the work experience review that I talked about earlier that's
Vicki Oliver - Service Director for HR and OD - 0:59:57
currently underway is look at all the opportunities that are currently available, both at the
Buckinghamshire Council and across Buckinghamshire as the place.
We'll absolutely consider how does the shadowing scheme form part of that work experience.
experience in offer, what can we do more to promote it, and we're absolutely looking at
how we can sort of recognise those that have participated in all of our work experience
schemes, including the Councillor Shadowing scheme.
So we'll take that away to have a look at how can we enhance recognition at the end
of the year.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 1:00:31
It might not be run by HR, but it is definitely run by Buckinghamshire Council and by officers
employed by Buckinghamshire Council.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:00:38
I think this draws this item agenda to the end.
I think, thank you very much, Councillor Carrington, Sarah and Vicky for this report.
As Councillor Ted said, I found it very helpful, useful.
But there were a few takeaway points that I think the committee agrees that we would like a follow -up
in relation to the clarification around absence as Martin, as Councillor Ted has raised, apprenticeships.
And I think we'd like to note that we will be interested in hearing at some point before the summer
on what measures might be put forward for the heatwave protection or mitigation for
our colleagues on the ground.
Councillor Lettet, have I got things wrong?
No, never.
I would never say that, as you know.
I just think there's so much in this report.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:01:25
We've actually, given the committee size, only had an opportunity to lightly skim a
few topics.
The one that particularly interests me is the skills and employment area, and I just
think it would be good to have that brought back to the committee as a separate item at
some point, because there is so much in here that actually I think we can do with a deeper
dive on this, its metrics, its costs and so on.
So I'd just like to suggest maybe when we get to the work plan that we look at skills
and employment as a new item to come to this committee with more detail.
I can see that and I don't disagree.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:02:04
But let's, when we get down to the work plan in the agenda item.
Sorry.
Sorry.
Sarah Murphy-Brookman - Corporate Director for Resources - 1:02:17
I think, Councillor Tett, that the skills is actually goes through the Children's Select
Committee.
I think it's within their purview.
So it's within this report because it's HR and HR administers it.
But you can, I'm not saying you can't have it, but it's just that I think it is actually
children's select committee matter.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:02:37
Chairman, I'm just slightly puzzled that a lot of this relates to adults, yeah, and I'm
just puzzled that the Children's Committee is looking at, for example, what about, you
know, Ukrainian refugees, people with different disabilities, people who've had long -term
employment issues.
These are adults.
These are not children.
I understand education is children's.
These are adult skills.
I agree with you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:03:00
So, we discuss it in the work plan, and I'll be grateful if the officers can work with
us on that.
Thank you.
Well, thank you very much, Sarah and Vicky, for your input today and your time.
And welcome, Richard and Amy.
Feel free to move up so that Councillor Carrington isn't feeling very left out on his own, or
by yourself.
Well, we're now at the agenda item number six.
which is a review of the Council's strategic asset management plan,
which is what we asked for in July.
So I'm very grateful, Councillor Carrington,
to you and your officers for bringing it so quickly back to us.
The floor is yours and your officers.

6 Strategic Asset Management Plan

Well, thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
And as you've already mentioned,
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:04:18
this was discussed extensively in the last meeting.
I mean, not the paper itself, more that it was upcoming.
Obviously, if you remember the last meeting on the 16th of July, and a paper was brought
to you regarding the Council's approach to property management, and the SAMP was raised
as what was sort of coming in the pipeline, and this was then reviewed and approved by
cabinet on the 28th of July.
So this is still very fresh and young and fresh off the printing press.
So, what is it?
So, the SAMP is a clear framework for how we're going to manage and make best use of
the council's property and land to support the council's priorities, including regeneration,
housing, and economic growth as set out in the corporate plan, and it aligns with the
delivery of the MDFP.
It provides a clear basis for informed decision -making and sets out how the estate will support modern
ways of working and better outcomes for the people of Buckinghamshire.
So it aligns with the period of the Countess' Corporate Plan 2027 to 31 and acts as a key
delivery mechanism for the five priorities.
So the property assets held by the Council directly or indirectly achieve outcomes under
all the priorities as mentioned by enabling regeneration, providing places to learn, work
and succeed and supporting service delivery or impacting communitives positively, while
throughout ensuring value for money
through effective stewardship of resources.
So the portfolio in its entirety extends to
just over 1100 building assets
with over 600 land interests with an overall value
in excess of £1 .4 billion
as of the 31st of March 2025
as per the statement of accounts 2425.
So these assets, as mentioned, serve a number of different functions.
And if you remember when I did the last one, I did all sorts of numbers of that.
We had five of these, seven of that.
It's now a lot simpler into three.
There are three broad portfolios where the relevant properties and assets are sort of
coalesced.
So number one is investment assets, which as the name suggests, is the income -generating
assets, which also includes significant agricultural and
land holdings.
I mean, to put it into context, we have 307 investment
properties, this is nine business parts, 31 tenanted
farms, over 4 ,500 acres of farmland in agricultural use.
There's an overall asset value of 353 million pounds,
which brings in a rental income of 21 million pounds.
The second portfolio is the operational portfolio,
which are those assets which accommodate
and support council services and functions.
This includes obviously schools and community services.
So for the numbers, the 841 operational properties.
So breaking this down, that's 318 educational facilities,
72 car parks, 56 managed parks, and eight council depots.
The final one is infrastructure assets.
So these are our roads, our vehicles, our equipments.
So that's over 2 ,200 miles of roads, in addition to the over 27 ,000 street lights in the county,
85 ,000 gullies, a fleet of vehicles and various types of equipment to deliver services such
as refuge collection, as we discussed in depth in the previous item.
So the key part of management of each of these portfolios is the development of asset plans
for each of the assets or a group of similar assets.
These provide the link to the corporate plan and are covered in detail in item 7.
Yeah, item 7 on page 58, and how that all works.
Also I just want to sort of highlight at the last meeting we mentioned the corporate landlord
model, which is also mentioned in here, which is about the ownership, management and maintenance
of all council land and property, which as a reminder, sort of brings into the mind set
that the resources, well, the corporate property and assets team are now the landlord and all
the sort of internal operational assets are the tenant.
And I know we discussed this in detail at our last meeting.
So in conclusion, this really just brings sort of something which allows us to have
effective asset management where we ensure that all the decisions we're making deliver
value for money and supporting our long -term sustainable services.
And it really brings up the joined -up thinking, aligning with the corporate plan, and allows
the things to be planned accordingly.
So I'll hand over to Richard or Amy if there's anything further you want to say on what I've
just been saying.
Thank you, Robert.
Good afternoon, everyone.
So I'm Richard Barker.
I'm the Council's Corporate Director for Communities.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:09:30
I'm joined by Amy Bridgford, our Service Director for Property and Assets.
I'm conscious that's been a very full summary in terms of the paper itself and also conscious
that the Committee's had a quite a lengthy conversation at its previous meeting, as you
said earlier in the summer, just in terms of the functioning of the property and asset
service in terms of how we manage our buildings, whether that's in the investment or the operational
portfolio.
The document that you have in terms of the SAMP in your committee pack today is clearly
a strategic framework document.
So it's a guiding document to inform how we make investment decisions on the investment
portfolio and how we manage the operational estate going forward.
It doesn't get into detail.
That's not its intention.
It's about setting some strategic parameters and some guiding principles, as Robert says,
to align with our corporate plan priorities and secure best value for money for our residents
and for the Council more broadly.
I'll probably pause then, obviously happy to take questions.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:10:35
Wow.
Wow, okay.
Let me put your hands up.
I'll write it down one by one.
Right, okay.
Councillor Townsend, first to kick us off.
The floor is yours.
Thank you.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:11:07
The report talks about, particularly within the operational portfolio strategy, the reuse
or third party use of, on the sale of surplus assets.
I'm quite interested to know what the process is that takes place when you're making the
decisions about the use of surplus assets.
So how, to what extent is community value and future service needs evaluated?
Because that's obviously, that's one of the, part of the asset management strategy you're
committing to enabling positive community impact.
And also the report refers to consultation with ward members on disposals and things
like that.
At what stage are ward members consulted?
Is that while options are still being developed or is it once a preferred decision has been
reached, is it too late for ward members to have an influence or an impact on those sorts
of decisions?
So I'd just like to understand the process a little bit more.
Thank you.
Thank you, council, for your question and your interest in the operational portfolio.
Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets - 1:12:21
So as you've seen in the stamp, it's got five guiding principles for that portfolio.
One of them being for that, you know, serving the operational state for our services, our
tenants, our community.
When we're thinking about disposals, what we would do internally first is we reach out
to all of the service areas to understand their needs, both now and in the future.
Each service area would have their own strategy and what their demand is like in the future,
so we would make some analysis on what that property could be used for.
Any disposal would then go down the right governance route and it would be a cabinet
decision for that disposal if it didn't have a different purpose within service needs both
now and in the long -term future of their strategy.
So I hope that answers your question.
I think there's a reference in the report to ward member consultation.
Cllr Larisa Townsend - 1:13:08
So at what point do you envisage that occurring?
Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets - 1:13:14
So ward member consultations are referenced in the officer executive decision process.
So we have a scheme of delegation which is set to specific financial delegations.
So a lot of decisions that are low level around lease extensions, lease renewals, new leases
fall under the officer executive decision.
And once that is made, that's consultation with the cabinet member and local ward members.
So if you are in that ward where the asset is affected, then you are emailed and there's
a three working day consultation period.
Disposals isn't typically going down the OED route due to the value, so it would be a cabinet
decision, so that cabinet report would be produced and local members would be consulted
in a suitable way.
Let me obviously, if I can just add some further one onto this.
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:13:56
So Amy has in great detail described how it is with the officer executive decision, which
is more for the things like new leases and lease renewals.
I mean, on the particular, on what you were asking on,
disposals, when we get to that stage,
if that is an option, is as I have described here before,
when it goes to the key leader decision,
where cabinet is one of the,
well, cabinet is a key leader decision,
it is part of that process.
Normally, well, the disposal process,
there are two papers which go to cabinet.
There is the first one, which is the options paper, which is describing the situation with
a particular asset and is the one which is recommending to go to marketing.
And that one before, is always before the paper, there is the ward members are informed
and there is discussion on it.
And then after that paper, if it is then approved to go to market, then the marketing process
will take place, and then there will be a second paper,
which if there is an approved bidder,
that is what that paper will recommend.
And before that paper, again, the members
and local parish councils will be informed
of what is decided.
So there are multiple opportunities
for ward members to be consulted for their views,
bringing the important local knowledge on it,
on the asset and the area.
Thank you very much.
Our visiting Councillor Carrington.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:15:33
Councillor Tett.
Yes, thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:15:38
I wanted to build a little bit on Councillor Townsend's question.
I'm particularly interested in the investment portfolio.
And if I look upon this almost like a financial advisor would do, I mean, normally you would
have a process for looking through your assets to look at what you hold, what you sell and
what you buy.
What I'm not clear on from this report is, is there a process for looking at all of our
investment assets on a regular basis to see those that we believe we should still be holding
and why should we hold them, those that we should be selling and what processes gone
through to understand what the consequences of doing that would be.
And also, are there gaps in the portfolio?
If you look at it on a balanced portfolio basis, maybe we have too many retail parks
but not enough office accommodation.
You know, you'd have a balanced portfolio.
Are there gaps in that investment portfolio where you'd actually want to go out strategically
buying new assets?
So it's a great report.
I'm really grateful for it.
But I'd really like more information and more understanding on the investment side of how
that process of regular review of our assets, what do you hold, what do you sell, what do
you buy?
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And can I just add to Councillor Ted?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:16:53
I actually got a follow -up question which I might just put in at the moment, is that
I note that with the investment portfolio, it states that sometimes, or typically most
of it is with borrowing.
I'm particularly interested to find out what kind of borrowing are they, what percentages,
and how does it change with the investment strategy if interest rates move.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Teck.
Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets - 1:17:18
So, we've got the strategic asset management plan, the stamp that sits on the top. Under
each portfolio is then a specific strategy. Now, that's not something that would be published
to the public. That would be something that the investment asset managers, who are our
ICS, so they're Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, they would deliver on that investment
strategy. So, underneath the stamp, we've got a strategy for our investment portfolio.
So what sits underneath that are asset plans for each of our assets within the investment
strategy.
Those plans are reviewed annually.
What they do is they inform the health and performance of that asset.
So not only do the asset plans have core detail on the asset itself, but they do things like
they do a SWOT analysis, so strengths, opportunities, weaknesses, and threats.
They also build a financial model into that.
And we are looking at that year on year with changes in the market and with changes in
demand to understand if that investment asset is still fulfilling the investment portfolio
principles and they are delivering on what that asset should do for the council.
It is the results of that asset plan that then channel into governance and decision
making whether or not it should change use, whether or not it should be disposed because
it is underperforming.
So, there is a whole series of intricate processes that sit behind this high -level document that
we have officers working through the governance channel.
That's very helpful, Joanne.
If I could just clarify.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:18:50
So, every asset goes through that process on an annual basis, yes?
That is what we have just started with the implementation of the SAMPS.
Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets - 1:19:01
I just want to remind us that the SAMPS eight weeks old and we are implementing that in
full.
but we have an investment strategy that sits behind it.
So they have not been, but the intention
is that they will go through a regular process.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:19:11
Because I was going to ask as a supplementary,
just to illustrate that, I mean, how many new investment
properties, for example, have we bought in the last two years?
And how many investment properties
have we disposed of in the last two years?
I'd just like to illustrate the fact this process is working.
And I think the chairman also had a question about interest
rates.
Thanks for your question, Councillor Tet. So just to add to Amy's comments, I think
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:19:39
it's fair to say that this document is around the real, really detailed assessment of our
existing portfolio. You're right to point to a number of significant headwinds within
the investment space around things like large floor space, retail space, office accommodation,
post -COVID pandemic, of course, there's been some significant changes in those market conditions,
which strategically the Council needs to wrestle with and consider, particularly through the
MTFP process. So the SAMP is there to provide, as I said at the start, a really consistent
framework and assessment. We've got those investment plans that provide a more robust
approach for the existing sites and investment properties that we hold. But as I said, there's
longer term strategic piece around divestment of certain asset types because of changes
in conditions and perhaps investment in new asset types as well.
I think we might need to come back to you in terms of the specific numbers.
So even if we took a framework of since this unitary council what that change has looked
like in terms of the investment portfolio, those divestments and new properties that
have been purchased, we can confirm that separately perhaps in writing.
There are a significant number of the investment portfolio properties that are effectively
debt -backed, usually funded, I think all funded through public loans and works board funding,
so that is a particular consideration, but we take a whole life investment approach in
terms of the assessment of our investment portfolio as well.
So that considers the funding of the borrowing effectively to purchase, you know, to fund
the capital and also the returns that we're getting through the income as well.
So it's a whole, as I said, it's a whole life assessment as part of that business case.
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:21:27
And just to add to that particular borrowing point and Councillor Test's point on when
we decide to sell or when we decide to buy, where this is obviously works hand in hand
with the MTFP and there is a part of the MTFP, one of the appendices which I have the honour
representing, which is the capital investment strategy, which details very clearly the processes
of how this is done and sort of the rules to work towards, and particularly on prudential
borrowing.
It has very strict rules on how that can be done and so I have my hands regarding the
interest rates on that point.
And I know you're very familiar with that document, Councillor Tett.
I am indeed with the process you've described.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Tett.
Councillor Daly.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:22:10
Microphones.
Sorry, we're still taking notes.
Sorry for that.
Cllr Christine Adali - 1:22:20
Generally, a question before an asset is that has been declared as not really functioning
the way you want it anymore, and you cheque with other departments, how does the process
work for change of purpose, so once you decide, so cost assessment, et cetera, and also before
asset gets disposed of, is there a formal process of assessment regarding the social
community service evaluation, like say it's perfectly accessible for people with accessible
needs, et cetera. So how detailed is that process? Is it formalised? And have you got
examples possibly? Thanks for the question, Councillor. So just
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:23:21
to be clear, the operational portfolio, and we've given a summary of that on page 70 of
the pack, 841 operational assets, buildings, effectively, that are there to discharge and
deliver the Council's services effectively. As you've alluded to, on the principles there,
We're looking to get as much efficiency in terms of the use of that and to promote the
best access to our residents in terms of access to services.
Often that results in colocation opportunities and as part of that process sometimes assets
are then declared surplus in the way you've described.
There is a decision at that point to take.
Once it's been declared surplus we've consulted with council services and deemed that that
property is available for alternative use.
And the two decisions we really have is whether or not to return that into an investment portfolio
opportunity, which has happened.
We've got some examples of that.
Or it could be for community use.
And equally we've got examples of that perhaps through a devolved service arrangement where
it's not a direct council service that's being provided.
It may be a community service provided by voluntary community sector organisations.
We've got many examples of those within our existing portfolio as well.
I think the disposal process we've covered perhaps in the earlier question in terms of
how members are consulted, how the community are consulted, how we arrive at that decision.
It's probably just worth mentioning there's a best consideration process to that part
of it as well in terms of any disposal.
We'd need to meet the requirements of what's called Section 123 to demonstrate that the
Council is secure and best consideration as part of the disposal.
but as I said, there is some middle ground there where we'd return the asset, but perhaps
have it for investment or community use purposes.
Thank you for that.
Just one question.
Cllr Christine Adali - 1:25:16
In that process of maybe change of purpose, et cetera, do you involve the members and
the parishes in that too, because they do have the local knowledge that might help you
in that process?
Yes.
Thanks, Councillor.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:25:29
I think the cabinet member mentioned earlier there are some significant checkpoints along
the way whereby local members are engaged through that process to inform and I suppose
get the best outcome for any alternative use of any other asset.
Of course there may also be a planning consideration depending on the nature of the asset and its
current appointed use.
We need to consider that as part of the process as well.
Thank you, Councillor Daly.
Councillor Paul.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:25:54
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Chris Poll - 1:25:58
And can I start just by thanking the officer, Mr. Barker, whenever I've had a question.
He's been very forthcoming.
What, whilst I appreciate this is a very high level overview of investment properties and,
you know, those larger properties, when we merged into one council, we absorbed many
penny packets of land.
Now, I know we've had conversations before about some such of these, but they must be
all over the county.
I only know the Aylesbury Vale situations, the Legacy Vale area.
But those penny packets all add together and create quite a cost for the council, which
isn't, as I say, mentioned in here.
We've had some instances where Parachute Town Councils would like to take over those penny
packets for very good reason, take over the management of them.
So the process of the council agreeing to a lease, be it a 10 year, 25 year, 100 year
lease, for the purpose of leisure allotment, that sort of thing, where the land isn't being
changed.
Could we have some kind of process where that is done more easily?
Because it seems to get hung up in legal.
And it almost seems like sometimes we don't know what land we own.
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:27:26
I think the answer there is, I think, any disposal we're involved in and at least being
included within that, be it a short -term disposal, because of who we are, being the council,
everything must show that we are following
and achieving best value as per the local government
at 1972 section 123.
So there can be no direct negotiation with people.
We have to go through the proper process
and conscious, yes, legal, just slow it down,
but we have to do this properly.
We cannot be seen to be at any point,
any form of favouritism.
So I know everyone would wish it would be faster, but these are very detailed transactions
and they cannot be rushed.
I'm afraid it's the answer to that.
I know it's Richard, you want to be more diplomatic than me.
No, I don't think I disagree with them not being rushed, but I do see the frustration,
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:28:22
Councillor Paul, sometimes in terms of what seems to be on the face of it a relatively
straightforward transaction can take some time and there is some process, but of course
the council, you know, we need to protect our own position to make sure things are done
properly in the way in which the cabinet members described.
We've talked a lot already around the disposal process.
There is a separate policy which is slightly different to that, the service devolution
process which we engage a lot with town and parishes on as well and we have a number of
examples around things like recreation grounds and community halls whereby we devolve the
responsibility for providing that service to the town and parish.
Often there's an awful lot of appetite to do that, particularly for town and parishes
and other community groups, and that's done through a lease arrangement rather than an
asset transfer.
So our asset disposal goes through the process we mentioned in the questions earlier.
There is a devolution process where we retain the ownership of the asset but devolve it
through a lease arrangement to town and parishes.
Still comes with its process.
sometimes that process I appreciate can be a little bit frustrating but we just
need to ensure obviously we've got due diligence for both parties so we need to
appeal to a higher authority it seems Jim thank you
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:29:43
councillor Crabtree yes thank you yeah I would like to know that this is a useful
Cllr Anna Crabtree - 1:29:51
report in terms of the information it provides but I am interested I feel it's
presented in rather a rose -tinted view of, um, assuming that all decisions, um, that
are made on the investment and the operational portfolios go in our favour.
Um, we all are aware that in the reality, the cold light of day, and the chairman has
mentioned about interest rate changes, all these types of things, the property market
can have an impact on our portfolios as they do on individuals, um, property assets.
I was just wondering what the process would be for picking up if a decision that was taken
had not gone in our favour, if perhaps circumstances change and we feel that a decision has not
benefited us in the longer term, and what the scrutiny would be of the decision making
process when we have the benefit of hindsight to look back and see how it's gone.
Thank you.
Thanks for the question, Councillor Crabtree.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:30:44
So if a hypothetical scenario, if a decision was taken around the purchase of a new investment
portfolio or asset and the business case didn't play out in the way in which the decision
report had suggested it would do, that process would come through the MTFP and we'd need
to correct that situation through the budget process.
So very transparent, subject to budget scrutiny, as you'll be very familiar with, and that's
how that issue would be corrected.
Um, if it was a matter for, um, kind of questioning decision -making and the, um, process of decision -making,
there could well be an audit process and obviously there's council governance which sits around
all of that.
But if it's simply on the financial, uh, the way in which the business case plays, plays
out in reality, it would be an issue for the MTFP.
Um, as I mentioned earlier in my kind of earlier remarks, there are, clearly there are significant
market conditions which have affected our portfolio in recent times, whether that just
be around the run rate for inflation, as mentioned, the impact, long -term impact of the pandemic
and the impact that's had particularly on our office estates, the direction of travel
for retail and so on. So there are big strategic issues that we need to balance as well, but
again, that would come through the MTFP in terms of right -sizing the budgets to reflect
to the current realities of the budget period.
Thank you, Councillor Crabtree.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:32:18
I think what Councillor Crabtree has alluded to, and I think a bit of Councillor Tad, myself,
is I know that SAM is pretty new.
It's eight weeks, in play.
When do you think that this committee could have a further update as to how it's performed
or an overview of the strategy?
I'm wondering whether in part two even, just so that members of this committee who
are accountable to our electorate feel secure that the investment portfolio is being invested
in the right way and the risks are being handled and give, you know, scrutinise.
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:33:04
So what I would suggest would be a good time would allow a year to run and then I think
keep it as a standing agenda item for the committee.
So obviously July.
So I think in the July meeting would be a good time to see how it's been over the
year and then to keep it as a standing item for your July meeting going forward.
Obviously, open to you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:33:28
I think committee members would be – I mean, I don't know what's going to happen to
the makeup of the committee then, who's going to chair it, but I think that would
helpful for the committee going forward. Um,
and I think we asked the officer to sort of note that this is a vital area and
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:33:43
I think it obviously needs to screws in. So I think being a standing item,
I think I would recommend from my perspective and that I know my successes will
probably curse me for saying this, but I think it needs to be done.
Good to hear that we're all in agreement. Um, council,
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:33:57
I suppose there's a question or comment on this.
It's a comment on this, please.
Cllr Chris Poll - 1:34:03
I think we shouldn't lose sight that, you know, this isn't just about making money.
It's about value to the community as well.
Thank you.
Right.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:34:15
Councillor Marima and then Councillor Jupp.
Thank you.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 1:34:20
Is it okay if I move from investment portfolio?
Sorry, Councillor Mezza.
So, Marima, Ayob and Matta.
And Huxley.
Okay.
That's okay.
Is it okay if I move from investment portfolio?
Yes, of course.
No, the floor is yours.
Thank you.
I've lost my point in the report now.
The report makes reference to the climate change
and air quality strategy that needs to be considered alongside the strategic asset management
plan as well as other council strategies.
There's also a commitment to improve energy efficiency and other environmental and sustainability
measures as well.
But what, and correct me if I'm not reading this report properly, what is absent from
this report are commitments to climate adaptation, flood risk, overheating, draught resilience,
et cetera.
And this omission seems to me, is of concern to me, particularly given the summer that
we've just had, and we've just had a conversation about protecting our workforce.
So I want to focus on how we protect our buildings.
I'm not sure what you're aware that there's two reports that have come out recently by
the Climate Change Committee.
One is the fourth independent climate risk assessment for the UK and a separate report
focusing specifically on the role of local authorities in adapting to climate change.
The key takeaway from that report is a recommendation that we should be planning for two degrees
global warming by 2020 – 2050, excuse me – and four degrees by 2100 in all of our
long -term policies, planning and strategies.
It also recommends that the cost of climate impacts and the cost of adaptations are being
integrated into the Council's core financial management processes, including, and since
we're talking about it now, the asset management plan.
So my first question is, are these costs being integrated?
And more specifically, the reports recommend a number of measures such as investing in
cooling for key public services, assessing climate risk across the entire state, integrating
adaptation into maintenance and refurbishment and prioritising critical buildings and service
continuity and using Council -owned land as an adaptation asset.
So, my question is, are you willing to consider these recommendations, and if so, can we have
a commitment, can we have a statement?
Councillor Marima, I'm not sure it's this committee's remit to seek officers' commitment.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:37:50
No, but it's the—
It seems to want more for full council, if anything.
Cllr Maru Mormina - 1:37:59
Well, it's the responsibility of this service to build into the strategy for asset management.
What I'm asking is to build climate adaptation.
There's sort of a number of things here.
I mean, so firstly, the main one is, as you mentioned, climate change and air quality
strategy.
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:38:15
That's considered by tech.
So any changes to that particular strategy would be for them to scrutinise and make the
I think for wholesale change, as mentioned, I think that is one more for a motion of Council.
But what we do here, by all things, and it's the unwritten things, we follow all current
government legislation and regulation.
So we are fully legal with our builders and everything, and we are following what is the
current legislation and regulation regarding it all.
So on the flooding plan, we are following all the current regulation on that.
When it comes to energy performance, all of our buildings are EPC compliant, and we have
regular inspections to make certain that we are so.
The recent – I'll hand over to Amy for this one, but the construction work on Denmark
Street, the new council office, which I know some members of this committee attended, is
being done to the highest standards on that level.
I'll hand over to you, Amy, if you want to highlight some of the work being done on Denmark
Street in particular.
Yeah, thank you, Councillor, for your question.
I recognise your keen interest on the subject matter.
Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets - 1:39:27
I just want to address a few things and compliment Councillor Carrington's feedback to yourself.
So obviously the samp has been approved by cabinet and it's a five -year plan.
So in terms of any absent of commitments, as what Richard Bach was saying earlier, it's
a very high -level framework.
So to go into intricate details of per subject matter, per principle would make it quite
a lengthy document.
Councillor Carrington has mentioned EPCs, so energy performance certificates, and I
think you'll be familiar with the legislation that's come out in terms of the banding that
needs to change by 2031 and the minimum EPC ratings on our building with a certain metre
squared.
So we are doing a full assessment across our estate to ensure that by 2031 when that legislation
is enforced, that we are fully compliant and that aligns with one of the strategic principles
of our stamp that we will have a compliant estate.
Just in terms of Denmark street, a couple of committee members have had hopefully the
pleasure of visiting our new open emerging corporate office in High Wycombe and our new
home of the county archives that's moving from Walton street basement to that building.
It's a very modern building, it has improved glazing, it has improved ventilation, we've
got heat pumps, we've got electric LEDs, so it has met a high standard from both a building
control requirement and through making the best use of energy efficiency.
Thank you.
Can I move on to other Councillors?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:41:00
Because I personally think that while it's a worthy cause, it's not one for this committee.
Councillor Lajub, thank you.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Mohammed Ayub - 1:41:12
Page 69 will go assets value annual rental income and property.
Wouldn't it be better if we can add maintenance cost?
Yeah.
Sorry.
The maintenance cost for the investment portfolios, you've got a net position.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:41:28
It's a figure we could have put into this document, but obviously it's a relatively
static document.
The MTFP, so the Council's medium term financial plan shows the total income and the cost of
the investment portfolio.
The net position for this financial year is 17 million.
So income slightly over 21.
There's a cost of servicing that investment portfolio and the net position is 17 million
as per the Council's published MTFP.
Thank you.
Councillor Metter.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:42:04
Thank you for bearing with us.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Nidhi Mehta - 1:42:09
So a lot of questions have been already asked, but just for my understanding, I wanted to
understand, what will be the key benchmarks against which the Cabinet will judge the success
of SAMHSA?
That is one question, and then I have a combination of one question for Councillor Carrington,
if you want to answer first.
Amy Bridgford - Service Director for Corporate Property & Assets - 1:42:38
I think one of the takeaways is there are strategic principles and guiding principles.
I don't want to be repetitive in my nature here.
This framework is basically ensuring that we're having decision making against the principles
that are outlined in that stamp.
Even though it's only been eight weeks since it was adopted, you'll see through our OED
process and any emerging decisions by leader or cabinet that they are making reference
to the corporate plan and how they are meeting those principles.
So I'd say that would be the first one for the committee to look at.
Thank you.
Councillor Huxley, thank you for bearing with us.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:43:17
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Andy Huxley - 1:43:21
We it has been talked about before we
We reference to theatres that we have in
in the county which we have Wicca and one here in Aylesbury and
We've talked about the possibility of something a similar facility in the north of the count here
I just wondered whether anything had been progressed in that issue
Thank you.
Yeah, thanks for the question, Councillor Huxley.
Richard Barker - Corporate Director, Communities - 1:43:52
So as you say, the Council owns two principal theatres, the Waterside here in Aylesbury
and the Wickham Swan, both provided by commercial operators, both performing incredibly well,
really vibrant offer, commercially successful, strong business plan and a good medium and
long -term outlook.
So we feel very confident in terms of the theatre offer.
The local plan is obviously something that will be occupying members' minds currently
as we've gone through the Regulation 19 consultation and that obviously sets the ground for the
vision I suppose in terms of future growth for the county, significant growth anticipated
for the reasons you're all well aware of.
There's an infrastructure component to the local plan which articulates ambitions around
investment for education, leisure and so on. There is an ambition for the council to make
a significant investment in the sports and leisure offer in the north of the county to
respond to that anticipated population growth. It isn't currently the ambition to include
a theatre as part of that development. I wouldn't say that's completely off the table. I think
Our current assessment is we've got two significant regional theatres with a significant catchment
and a really strong offering and at present we don't necessarily see room for further
growth in that market to the north of Aylesbury, albeit we do see the need and the Council's
recognised that through its adopted Sports and Leisure Facilities Strategy for a significant
investment in sports and leisure provision in the north of the county and again that
would look to progress hand in glove with the development of the local plan.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:45:38
Thank you. Any further Councillor questions or points
of clarification? I just wanted to add two things. Firstly to
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:45:46
Councillor Huxley on the theatre. For those of you who are eagle -eyed, you will see there
will be a paper coming soon to cabinet on the future contractual model and procurement
arrangement for the theatres which is on the forward plan which is on the folks to just
while we're on the theatre point and on Councillor Mehta's point regarding how we're tracking
this.
Again, as I mentioned in previous items, CPIs, corporate priority indicators, particularly
under the theme, the corporate plan theme, living within our means.
You have the ones on the budget there.
That is how we will track this on the revenue and the capital side.
that is how it is tracked linking in to that side.
Thank you.
Councillor Ted, did I see that you tried to put your hand up?
No, I just twitched.
Oh, right.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:46:32
I was just so impressed by it.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:46:38
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:46:39
Well, thank you very much, Councillor Carrington, Richard and Amy for your wonderful presentation.
And I can say the report on the SAMP was very informative.
I'm heartened to read it and I look forward to a report in the future on how it performs.
Thank you very much for your time.
Well, item number seven, we're moving on to the work programme.

7 Work Programme

Yes, Katie.
The floor is yours.
Thank you, Chairman.
Just a few points to update the committee on.
Elizabeth Wheaton - Principal Scrutiny Officer - 1:47:27
With regards to Budget Scrutiny Week, we have a set of budget scrutiny briefings lined up
for the autumn on the 3rd, 4th, 6th, 10th and 11th of November, covering most of the
areas requested.
The children's and education briefing has now been split.
into children's social care, and secondly the high needs block direct services grant.
Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 1:47:47
So we're just finalising another date for the local government finance overview session.
Potentially it might be the afternoon of the 3rd of November, so just to warn you about
that.
I've just checked the committee remits for skills and employability, and the subject
matter actually falls under growth infrastructure and housing select committee.
And looking at the membership of that committee and this committee, the crossover link is
our chairman.
So, it may be that requests for further information on that topic, we could channel through the
chairman and link into their work programme and see how we can move that forward to produce
reports there, if there isn't one on their work programme already.
Just a question on that.
I understand the finances I thought were this committee's responsibility.
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:48:40
So when we're looking at the costs, the payback, the metrics and so on, you're saying that
doesn't fall within a finance remit, it falls elsewhere, which I find slightly strange,
but help me understand that.
In terms of headline topics covered by different committees, the headline sits under growth
Katie Dover - Senior Scrutiny Officer - 1:49:01
infrastructure and housing, but I would suggest that the finances should come here under part
of another report. So I think we need to take that away and work out what that looks like
and report back to you. I'm happy to leave that with the Chairman,
Cllr Martin Tett - 1:49:17
but it would just strike me as something that this Committee should understand, what the
financial implications of this is. Yeah, my gut feeling is, without looking
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:49:26
at the rules and what it says in the Constitution, my gut feeling is the finances fall within
this committee and it's with this committee's remit to scrutinise the value, savings and
the cost to this council.
But I think it's a matter of courtesy, perhaps it would be wise for me to liaise with the
chair of that committee and clarify that point and if so update the rest of this committee
by email and see if applicable to bring it back to this committee.
Chris?
Yes.
Thank you, Chairman.
Yeah, that sort of ties in with a note that I made earlier about the adult learning part,
Cllr Chris Poll - 1:50:08
and it does frustrate me at times that we are so compartmentalised.
I understand why, and they can never be a perfect fit, but there is always crossover.
So on the adult learning, the report sort of focused on within the organisation, but
There's also without, and it does reference
without the organisation.
I always bang on about digital exclusion,
which is quite high in this county.
We must never forget that.
And that the cost versus payback for that
could be very high.
I can't measure it because it's not been measured,
but in my perception, if you can train people
to be able to use services within the organisation by phone or, you know, by device rather than
phone call, then there's a cost reduction to this council as we move towards AI.
So I would just like to reference, you know, how we can get that into, you know, as we
said, we put items forward in the work programme, that that I feel is a very important aspect
of what we can do with the adult skills.
What do other members think?
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:51:27
Because obviously we have a limited bandwidth in terms of, I mean, unless members want to
come in for more meetings, we have a limited bandwidth in relation to how many meetings
we have for the next, you know, eight months or so.
Well, not even eight months, six months.
So just, if I may, if I'm allowed.
We're all friends here.
Cllr Robert Carington - 1:51:45
In fact, it's just on the digital exclusion point, the IT plan, if you remember last year,
we had a lot of conversation on this.
So I mean, surely that would be the place to capture it.
We can have an expanded – I will ask the officers to have an expanded section on that.
I mean, I don't know if that will save the work from your side or unless you want it
on its own.
I think I'd be grateful for that because I'm looking at the – what we have, the
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:52:13
of this committee and it does look like it's building up and I think we've asked for them
to come back in relation to you know absence thank you chairman it's just any chance I
Cllr Chris Poll - 1:52:28
get to raise that issue I will raise it within the cabinet member has actively given you
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:52:32
his word thank you council very Christine I just want to say councillor Carrington had
Cllr Christine Adali - 1:52:40
a good idea there because the IT plan is on the agenda for November. So that would work
perfectly and just a bit more focus could be drawn onto the digital inclusion. That
would be great. Thank you.
Cllr Jackson Ng - 1:52:53
Thank you. Anything else from colleagues? No? Okay. Well, agenda item number eight.

8 Date and time of the next meeting

Date of the next meeting is the second, oh wait a second, it's this 2pm on Thursday,
26th of November, same building, somewhere in this building, but otherwise thank you to all members,
Katie, my vice chairman, and Councillor Carrington. Thank you for this meeting, thank you very much.